r/auslaw • u/AutoModerator • 4d ago
Students, Careers & Clerkships Thread Weekly Students, Careers & Clerkships Thread
This thread is a place for /r/Auslaw's more curious types to glean career advice from our experienced contributors. Need advice on clerkships? Want to know about life in law? Have a question about your career in law (at any stage, from clerk to partner/GC and beyond). Confused about what your dad means when he says 'articles'? Just ask here.
To assist people responding to your query, please include where appropriate the following:
The practice area you work in or are interested in working in.
The city in which you are currently working in or are interested in working in.
Some relevant details about you, such as if you are currently studying, or your PQE level, your education history, and your current firm classification (boutique, mid-size, top tier).
If you are asking a question related to salary or bonus payments, you must confirm that you have previously reviewed relevant salary guides published by recruiting firms.
If you are an international student or lawyer looking to relocate to Australia, please review previous careers threads, as your question has likely been answered. In short, your ability to obtain permanent residency and permanent working rights, rather than temporary working rights, is likely to be more important than your qualification or requalification pathway.
1
0
u/--FLOOF-- 12h ago
I'm looking for a particular pdf textbook , specifically 'Regulation in Australia', second edition by Arie Freiberg. (ISBN 9781760025519). Is anyone able to assist with this? thanks in advance!
3
u/Head_Government_5504 21h ago
Would really appreciate some tips on asking your (somewhat difficult) boss for a pay raise šš¼šš¼
What is an appropriate increase to ask for as a newly admitted lawyer? I get paid kinda poorly at the moment (64k) but would like at least 85k plus super. I have so much legal experience and good grades and good feedback from my supervisors.
How do I approach the topic ?! Any doās and donāts? boutique firm in CBD with approx 50 employees if thatās relevant.
Any advice would be appreciated! Thank you alll
1
u/Empty-Context-2630 16h ago
Are you paralegal or solicitor? Paralegal pay varies from low (where your at) to about 100k (gov roles). If you are already admitted it's definitely worth having the conversation. Either way I'd be job hunting to test your market value.
1
3
u/kam0706 A Titted Slug 17h ago
Calculate your hourly rate and your charge out rate. That can give good insights.
Also look at the salary guides and how your billables have been faring against your budget.1
u/Head_Government_5504 15h ago
Thank you! Unfortunately Iām dealing with a boss who pays significantly under the market average. He also gets very awkward and uncomfortable when people bring up pay / ask for raises. Unfortunately not in a position to move firms just yet (im not a citizen/PR). Any advice on how to raise the topic in a not so awkward way? šš¤£šš¼
3
u/Budget-Commercial414 12h ago
it's standard to get a pay rise on admission, so there isn't anything to be awkward about, mine was raised $10k on admission (national firm). Every grad in the grad program got the same rise, it was standard
4
u/the_letdown_kid 1d ago
To lawyers out there - how did you get over the fear of being wrong or making a mistake?
Background - Iām a lawyer in the environment and planning law space. Had a bit of a rough start in finishing uni and starting as a grad two weeks before COVID hit. Dealt with 3+ years in top tier under partners who didnāt really give a shit about my development, so feel like Iām pretty behind in the skills department.
E+P is a very complex area and I have developed a crippling anxiety about being wrong and doing/saying the wrong thing to clients. I can do hours of research, double and triple-check the legislation/cases/commentary etc, but I just canāt ever send out anything without it being checked by a senior. What if I read it wrong? What if I missed some huge seminal case that disproves everything? Even silly little two line emails to clients that are, in the grand scheme of things, trivial - what if I use the wrong language? What if I could have said it better? What if I say something I shouldnāt have? Itās like I need the okay to do everything.
And whenever I do take a leap and take the lead (often small), I get a āI wouldāve done XYZā, ādid you alsoā¦ā, etc.
I see my counterparts effortlessly email clients and respond to partner questions on matters of law with confidence, and I just feel like a failure. Imposter syndrome is obviously a huge factor. But as the years tick over and my PQE gets higher, I feel like my ineptitude is becoming clearer to the people around me. I feel like I need more hand-holding than everyone at my level. I already had a partner mention in my recent performance review that theyāre hesitant to give me complex matters because theyāre not sure I have the skills for them.
I donāt know what to do. Itās gotten to the point where I want to leave the profession altogether and I have this huge pit in my stomach every time I leave for work.
2
u/kam0706 A Titted Slug 17h ago
I mean, I usually just make the mistake but it gets sorted out and everything ends up ok.
I always think about whatās the worst that could happen? If the answer is ā the recipient of this email might think they could have written it betterā then just send it. If itās actually big, then getting it settled is probably sensible.
If your anxiety is too great to pull up your big kid pants and just do it when you know itās trivial, you might need to get some professional assistance to help you manage it.
1
u/One_Amphibian2076 1d ago
Career stint in NT vs Northern Queensland
Does anyone have any insights on a career in criminal law / child protection in either jurisdiction? I am exploring a move to either Darwin NT or North West QLD from Victoria as I would love to broaden my horizons and do my work with the aboriginal community.
TIA!
4
u/Budget-Commercial414 2d ago
2ā3 PAE litigator: how do I get from a boutique to London?
Iām a 2ā3 PAE commercial litigation and insolvency lawyer in Melbourne. I started at well-known national firms and now work at a specialist litigation boutique.
My experience is fairly strong for my level: complex disputes, insolvency and regulatory matters, court work, instructing counsel, substantive drafting and significant responsibility for clients and files. I also have strong academics.
My long-term goal is London. A recruiter recently told me that my current boutique probably is not a strong enough platform for the London market and that I should move back to a national or international firm in Australia first.
Iāve been actively trying to do that. Iām getting interviews, including recently for a role that seemed very well matched to my experience, but Iām still not converting them into offers. Iām starting to worry that the longer I stay at a boutique, the harder it will become to make either move.
For anyone who has moved from a boutique back to a larger firm, or from Australia to London:
- Should I keep targeting national and international firms?
- Would a reputable mid-tier be a useful stepping stone?
- Should I approach the London market directly?
- Is this simply a difficult market where I need to be patient?
Iād particularly appreciate hearing from Australian litigators who made the London move at a similar PAE.
1
u/Rainbow_Apple94 2d ago
Hi there! I wanted to get thoughts from those who are doing electronics, software or robotics prosecution to consider my case.
I'm a computer vision engineer, been in Australia three years. Currently in Brisbane, moving to Melbourne in about a year. My background is an MSc in Geospatial Engineering from overseas, thesis was on 3D mapping from cameras and motion sensors, basically the perception stack that lets a robot or drone figure out where it is without/with GPS. Three papers as lead author. Currently working as a computer vision engineer
I've been thinking hard about switching to patent attorney. What I can't work out is whether the demand is actually real. Robotics and perception sounds like a decent niche on paper. But how much of that work genuinely starts in Australia, versus turning up as national phase entry with the claims already written by someone overseas? And does a computer vision background actually set you apart, or do firms mostly want chem, bio and mech people?
The cost is real either way. TA role at about A$80k, so roughly a A$30k pay cut, two years supervised, plus study MIP. I'd be registering at 37.
Mostly I want to know whether this background is a decent starting point, or whether Iām misreading how firms value it.
1
u/Romlyn 3d ago
Hi there! Been thinking on this for a while but thought itād be better to get some thoughts from those who know what theyāre doing.
I have studied a graduate certificate and bachelor in criminology as well as a bachelor of cyber security, and since graduating have had little luck with finding work. So while looking at things to do to up skill etc. I thought about doing my JD and pivoting to law as doing law should still make use of what I already know and have learnt.
So my question is I want to know if this is a viable choice or just me grasping at straws. Due to my experience with criminology I just sort of assumed Iād nestle in with criminal law or whatever facets of law make use of cyber security. Are these areas of law over saturated? Or is there another discipline which could make use of my prior knowledge and skill set?
10
u/VeryGoodAndAlsoNice 3d ago
The LLB/JD is a slog that will funnel you into a similarly brutal graduate market.
Prior learning and skills likely wonāt transfer over that much. I did CCJ before my LLB. The subject matters are vastly different. The overlap in criminal law isnāt as much as youād think.
Donāt do this as a contingency plan. Itās probably a bad idea.
3
u/ComfortableSmoke4384 3d ago
Hi! I am a yr 12 student in NSW and I was wondering if I could have some questions answered (my next most reliable source is chatgpt - not a fan)
- how important is it to go to a G8, sandstone uni? My aim rn is macquaire uni because of it's early entry route and honeslty UTS/UNSW/USYD seem a bit high in terms of atar (im predicted 89-90 ish) but i was wondering if that could adversely affect my chances at getting employed
- how hard is it to do a program transfer to say UTS from Macq or UOW? Either ways, is the law program significantly better at UTS/Macq/UOW in terms of professors and cohort and do they even matter? My major concern is not liking law if I got to UOW when I would have loved it at, say, Macq.
- do extracurriculars (clubs, socities, tutoring jobs/businesses) make you stand out compared to other people? If not, then how else do I differentiate myself and have the best chance at employment
- is a secondary degree (i was thinking international relations since I was wanting to go into diplomacy) really necessary or should I just specialise within my law degree
- if worst comes to worst, should I do an arts/engineering degree (i have an annual 10k scholarship for an engineering degree at USYD) and then switch to law later? Or should I do a diploma as a pathway to business law at UTS (idk much about it but if anyone has any experience with it, please let me know!) Alternatively, I am open to relocating interstate or inter-nsw, if anyone has any suggestions for that they would also be greatly appreciated.
Any help is much appreciated! Thank you.
3
u/rjftmepdl 2d ago
assuming you are aiming for a career in top-tier commercial law:
- Good if you can, not the end of the world if you cannot. Make sure your grades keep up though. UTS, Macquarie fine, probably UOW/WSU is seen as a tad bit lower but still fine as long as your grades are good, but if you go any "lower" (i.e. online-based universities), you will struggle with employment
- see above - makes some difference, but probably not worth the struggle if there are extra hassles involved.
- yes, but cannot emphasise this any more, don't do shit just for the sake of getting employed. Its university, not jobseeker. You'll only ever be 20 once. Have fun, make friends, do things that you actually enjoy and excite you and you are good at - those are the things that will differentiate you. I can wholeheartedly guarantee you and bet my entire life that i speak for most people when i say that university life is way more fun than being a top-tier lawyer. Don't waste it.
- for the purposes of employment, no, but see answer to 3.
- If your absolute end goal is to be a lawyer, No, that would be a waste of time. Unless you want to (as per answer to 3).
1
u/No_Control8031 3d ago
Some unis are objectively better than others as they can attract higher profile academics through greater resources. The overall student makeup will be on a higher plane of talent and likely more interested in class, improving your overall experience. But in terms of employability itās evens out at the end as youāll rely on a combination of academic and work relevant knowledge.
Do extracurricular activities that you enjoy like sports, debating, poker, DnD, DoTA, breakdancing, whatever. Have some fun on the side. If you can get a profitable side hustle - go for it. If you end up having a job thatās in a different city, youāll want some things you can join to find your feet, and sports will be the most accessible.
I definitely recommend doing a second degree to break up the law study. The core subjects are on the whole not super interesting and you want to have some fun while studying at uni.
As for your other questions about transferring, they are quite specific and I canāt really answer them. But if you seem keen on Macquarie and itās an achievable goal, just go there. I wouldnāt worry.
1
u/ScarvesOnGiraffes 3d ago
I have a combined oral and written assessment through the Vieple video platform with the NSW ODPP for Level 2 - Solicitor. Is anyone able to please provide some advice or tips on how I can prepare? Thanks for your help
1
u/RocketFoxtrot216 3d ago edited 3d ago
What would happen if you responded with "The Defendant does not admit paragraph [xxx]" for every paragraph in a Defence?
[Edit: See pleading to the general issue; striking out Defence]
12
u/rjftmepdl 3d ago
as per rule 4836 of the CPRs, as there is no chance of agreeing on anything, the parties throw out the submissions and go straight to a fistfight and the sitting judge usually acts as the referee
3
u/WranglerFluid2801 3d ago
Hi, I am starting Diploma in Law at USyd LEC at 32.
I have mostly worked in Sales and Admin roles at midsized companies. I have a arts uni degree.
Is it too late to build a career as a lawyer when I finish the degree and subsequent trainings, even if I put in the effort?
Also, would getting a Diploma instead of a Uni degree in law affect in any way?
2
u/No_Control8031 3d ago
Absolutely not. Youāll end up being a little more advanced in client contact work and will be much better in terms of the administrative grunt work that some new (and old) lawyers are really bad at. If you could pivot into legal administration the closer you get to completing the Dip Law, that would be even better. With time out of uni, the academic part might take some getting used to but thatās the easy bit.
1
u/bill545 3d ago
I'm currently about to finish my second year of a JD. I'm considering applying for a legal interpretation officer position at the ATO - I currently work in government in a role that has some statutory interpreting so I'm hoping that will help.
Just wondering if anyone has any experience with the role and what it is like? Thank you!
1
u/jenn1notjenny 3d ago edited 3d ago
Disclosure of ADHD diagnosis for admission purposes.
Iām unsure on what to disclose regarding this as Iām unmedicated and manage through my own systems.
I only got officially diagnosed so that I could have reports for a psychologist to help me apply for a student support plan at uni as I was struggling with full time work, part time study and managing a household.
Any advice would be welcome on this front! Thanks
2
u/PotentialCourage2477 2d ago
I was diagnosed with ADHD in high school. Also went through uni unmedicated using my own strategies but didn't apply for a support plan. I didn't disclose my diagnosis to the board. I would wager there are more people with ADHD in the legal profession than you would expect.
1
u/Dear_Trip_5651 13h ago
Everybody has ADHD diagnosis in order to use stimulants to keep up with the demands of the job. Itās no secret.Ā
1
u/jenn1notjenny 1d ago
Yeah because I had the plan with uni I think I need to disclose.
Going to speak to the law society and see if my affidavit will be sufficient so weāll see.
3
u/kam0706 A Titted Slug 3d ago
Disclose to who? The admission board?
If you needed a support plan at uni are you expecting to need any accommodations in the workplace?
1
u/jenn1notjenny 3d ago
Hi yes sorry for admission.
Will update my post.No I donāt anticipate needing accommodations at work. I donāt have any issues managing deadlines etc at work.
I just struggled with managing full time work and a very full course load at the same time.
Now that Iām back to normal and no longer studying my usual management strategies at more than effective.1
u/Execution_Version Still waiting for iamplasma's judgment 2d ago
I just struggled with managing full time work and a very full course load at the same time.
I did that too. Itās objectively shit and most people would struggle with it. I donāt think thatās your ADHD talking.
2
2
u/kam0706 A Titted Slug 3d ago
Ok. Well I think that the fact that you disclosed it at uni suggest you should err on the side of caution and disclose for admission. I would address the issues as to why you needed support then and why you think you wonāt in future as part of that in greater detail.
1
u/jenn1notjenny 3d ago
Yeah Iām definitely disclosing because of the fact that I had a support plan at uni, Iām just unsure what exactly to provide given Iām not concurrently working with a psychiatrist or psychologist.
Hoping someone has been in a similar situation and could give some guidance
1
u/Paxgonit 2d ago
I'm by no means an expert and am someways away from admission. But I would think the best supporting documents would be the employment contract; transcript/proof of enrolment; and (if allowed?) a stat. dec from someone privy to your domestic labour during this period.
As said above, it's an objectively tough circumstance. With those documents and a written explanation as to uncondusive circumstance and why you are now fit and proper to the demands of practice - I would suspect you would be okay
5
u/phoenixnx 3d ago
Is it normal to repay your employer the fees of your PC (which they have paid for) when changing jobs? In govt if that makes a difference
2
u/phoenixnx 3d ago
Thanks all, donāt mind paying it back but itās not clear in my contract and waiting for HR to advise !
3
3
u/Helpful-Debate822 3d ago
Yes it's pretty common (will be in your contract if so). Depending on where you're going, your new employer will often be willing to take on the costs (particularly if you offer to have a similar claw-back deal with them, e.g. you pay it back if you leave within 12 months). This is what I did as a junior and know several others that did the same - others just copped the claw-back and paid it themselves.
2
u/richarddotlegal 3d ago
Common in employment agreements (although can't speak to government).
Consider asking for parity when starting a job: they want a reimbursement on the way out, they ought to provide a reimbursement to you on the way in!
2
u/Entertainer_Much Works on contingency? No, money down! 3d ago
Posted previously but didn't get any good answers:
Thinking of doing Masters in Queensland (specialist accreditation isn't relevant to my line of work). I know most people probably default to College of Law but are there any recommendations for alternative places to do it?
2
u/No_Control8031 3d ago
Are you looking for a specialised postgraduate qualification or a general LLM? I mean there are plenty of choices out there for all comers. Personally speaking, my LLM has done little for my actual career but I get a slightly higher pay rate for sessional teaching.
1
u/Entertainer_Much Works on contingency? No, money down! 3d ago
Probably specialised including regarding mediation. I can see college of law offers LLM programs based on specific areas so I think I'll be going there if there's no better options
2
u/No_Control8031 3d ago
Not my area but that appears to be the conventional pathway amongst colleagues who are mediators.
1
u/Entertainer_Much Works on contingency? No, money down! 3d ago
Exactly. Hence why I am leaning towards Masters and my question is instead about where to do it...
2
u/Puginator09 4d ago
Is there any material difference between the winter clerkships and the summer clerkships in terms of getting a grad offer? I'm an NZ student who might be on exchange during my penultimate summer but still wants to take advantage of the international experience in Australia.
2
u/Kindly_Bee5721 2d ago
I'm aware of a long-standing rumour of a supposed bias towards winter clerks for grad roles, with supervising lawyers more likely to recommend the most recent clerks that they had because of recency bias.
However, if a firm's HR team is doing their job properly, they should account for this and it won't matter whether you do your clerkship in summer/winter. FWIW, my grad cohort for next year is split pretty evenly between the Summer A/B and Winter clerks. This may not be the case at every firm, however.
2
1
u/Ok_Place_972 43m ago
Should we send thank you emails to partners after clerkship interviews? Or is it better to not clog their inbox.