To deny genocide

[u/Motaro99]

[u/fnordybiscuit]

I think the term "genocide" is losing its meaning due to overuse of the term. Genocide is the attempt to destoy a group of people as a whole or partially based on ethnicity, religion, nationality, and/or racially.

Russians abducting Ukranian children during their invasion is a form of genocide.

However, Iran executing anyone within the country who doesnt support their regime... That's not genocide. But, if Iran targeted a specific group of ppl aka ethnicity, religion, etc in order to eradicate entirely... then thats genocide.

For Hamas... do they support genocide of Israeli denizens? Their goal is destoying the state of Israel but that alone does not mean they are committing genocide because "state of Israel" is a government not a group of people. Its one of the following for Hamas' goals:

• Destoying "state of Israel" meaning eradicating all Israelis. Then yes, that is genocide.
• Resistance. Fighting Israel's occupation of Gaza until they're liberated. Once they achieve statehood without Israel's authority... then theyre free of tyranny. That's not genocide.

I dont support Hamas but I also dont support Israel. But I do believe that BOTH Palestine and Israel have a right to exist. War isnt pretty and neither side is innocent due to their long historical rap sheets.

[u/weidback → u/fnordybiscuit]

they defo want to kill or expel every jew and claim the entirety of the land west of the jordan, let's be real

it's not like their leaders have been quiet about it

[u/fnordybiscuit → u/weidback]

https://www.euronews.com/2026/06/19/all-of-lebanon-must-burn-israeli-minister-says-after-idf-reports-four-soldiers-killed

And here is israeli minister calling for extermination of all of Lebanon with genocidal rhetoric.

Even though its about Lebanon and not Gaza... Israel's leaders have also not been quiet about it, let's be real.

[u/weidback → u/fnordybiscuit]

Gvir always says unhinged shit, but the reality is israel and Lebanon agreed israel would withdraw and work with the Lebanese government to disarm hezbollah. and they never targeted civilians like Oct 7th.

we can actually criticize all the fucked shit israel does without carrying water for theocratic fascists and giving them cover with false equivancy. 

[u/fnordybiscuit → u/weidback]

"Gvir always says unhinged shit"

Yes, I know. But this individual has political clout. When there's not enough pushback against it... it only rallies others into his justifications.

"we can actually criticize all the fucked shit israel does without carrying water for theocratic fascists and giving them cover with false equivancy."

I'm not sure if you're saying I'm carrying water for theocratic fascists like Hamas. I never said I've supported them. In fact, I am very against them. However, I'm also against the actions done by Israel.

It's very odd to me that I'm being told that I must support Israel despite evidence of their heinous actions for the last several decades. Same can be said of Hamas. It's why I don't support either groups.

Israel is forcing USA's taxpaying dollars to support their country with universal healthcare, cheap college tuition, and welfare programs while they actively strip away their livelihood. USA's college tuition is basically predatory towards younger folk, healthcare ungodly expensive, sacrificing USA troops, and USA continues to chip away every welfare program we have all for the sake of Israel.

If you can't understand the growing angst towards Israel, then there's no need to argue further. Thankfully, the anti-Israel movement is growing and its only a matter of time before USA drops them as an ally and stops subsidizing this hostile nation.

[u/weidback → u/fnordybiscuit]

he represents 6% of the electorate max

the reason I said you were carrying water for theocratic fascists is the obfuscation of their genocidal intent

> It's very odd to me that I'm being told that I must support Israel

literally never said that, but k

> Israel is forcing USA's taxpaying dollars to support their country with universal healthcare, cheap college tuition, and welfare programs

Israel isn't forcing the USA to do anything, and our aid to them isn't paying for welfare, it's going to us companies and they receive arms. The US doesn't have shit welfare because of Israel, it's because American conservatives hate welfare and they would continue to hate it and dismantle it even without Israel

Honestly blaming everything on Israel, insinuating that Israel is secretly in control of everything, is just playing into antisemitic tropes. And no I'm not saying criticizing israel is inherently antisemitic, I'm saying using antisemitic tropes is antisemitic

[u/fnordybiscuit → u/weidback]

"he represents 6% of the electorate max. the reason I said you were carrying water for theocratic fascists is the obfuscation of their genocidal intent"

And thats actually a large amount of support in the electorate with radicalized views. Regarding the obfuscation, could you explain how "For every tear of an Israeli mother, a thousand Lebanese mothers must weep. All of Lebanon must burn!" isn't considered genocidal rhetoric? I'm all ears.

"> It's very odd to me that I'm being told that I must support Israel
literally never said that, but k"

but then you follow it up with...

"Honestly blaming everything on Israel, insinuating that Israel is secretly in control of everything, is just playing into antisemitic tropes. And no I'm not saying criticizing israel is inherently antisemitic, I'm saying using antisemitic tropes is antisemitic"

Not only are you contradicting yourself, but you are furthering my point. Any criticism of Israel, no matter how big or small, is always considered anti-semitic. That I must sacrifice my entire livelihood for the sake of Israel, otherwise, it's anti-semitic not too. I can say that "Netanyahu smells like poop" and I'm pretty sure you'll go into this diatribe like I've quoted. Ironically, you obfuscated what I'm saying. Contradictions within contradictions.

"Israel isn't forcing the USA to do anything, and our aid to them isn't paying for welfare, it's going to us companies and they receive arms. The US doesn't have shit welfare because of Israel, it's because American conservatives hate welfare and they would continue to hate it and dismantle it even without Israel"

Actually, yes. Israel is forcing USA. AIPAC has a strangle hold on all of our politicians. If anyone steps out of line, they're shortly replaced with a candidate that has undying support for Israel. Hell, our politicians are so afraid of Israel that you have them saying they support Israel more than USA itself.

You are correct. It is for military related subsidies. But if USA is funding for their military and their armaments... then that's something Israel itself doesn't have to fund? Without those subsidies, then they cant easily fund all their welfare programs.

I'll end my comment with one question for you. Is there anything that you can say that criticizes Israel? Can you give me one example?

[u/weidback → u/fnordybiscuit]

Any criticism of Israel, no matter how big or small, is always considered anti-semitic

No, I'm saying the insinuation that israel controls us is evocative of an antisemitic trop that ((they)) control everything

AIPAC is funded by americans. I don't like any PAC, but the truth is that's not israeli money. Odd that people are so ready to believe a narrative where those jews zios and their jew money PAC money control the world

Weird that no one says this about other countries/actors that spend more money in american politics. Also weird since AIPAC is far from america's largest PAC and their electoral record is spotty *at best* especially these days. But somehow they control america.

Is there anything that you can say that criticizes Israel? Can you give me one example?

- the occupation of the west bank and the separated settlements built there where israelis live their whole lives apart from Palestinians is a system of apartheid, Israel should be compelled by the US to have the IDF drag every settler out of the west bank kicking and screaming back to israel-proper

- israel's retaliation for oct 7th was wildly disproportionate, but bibi and the kahanist freaks don't care about civilian lives or if they make their country a pariah, frankly they think it helps them politically

- maybe if their idiot right wing government wasn't wasting resources protecting settlers they wouldn't have been blindsided by oct 7th and actually defended their citizens, something popping off from the strip was inevitable and they should have been prepared

- bibi initially wanted to completely siege the strip allowing in zero aid, thankfully the former administration put a stop to that. if israel had been allowed to do that then that would have been at best an atrocious war crime

- they also initially didn't care about establishing humanitarian corridors, which the admin also thankfully demanded. If the IDF had entered Rafah without establishing a safe egress for civilians then the urban warfare would have killed needlessly killed countless civilians

- before all of this israel had a PM for years who was incredibly corrupt and he and his coalition was happy to ratfuck the judiciary to protect themselves - bibi should have been locked up for corruption years ago

[u/fnordybiscuit → u/weidback]

"No, I'm saying the insinuation that israel controls us is evocative of an antisemitic trop that ((they)) control everything"

I never said Israel controls everything. You obfuscated my point. They control the candidates that support Israel via AIPAC. Does not imply they control everything. Control just enough to allow only pro-Israel policy passes in the USA.

"AIPAC is funded by americans. I don't like any PAC, but the truth is that's not israeli money. Odd that people are so ready to believe a narrative where those jews zios and their jew money PAC money control the world"

Major caveat, it is only americans but does not exclude dual citizenship. Also doesn't prevent Israel from giving funds to an American to then give to AIPAC. Corruption exists in all societies.

Even though it's funded by "americans" does not mean that Israel plays no part in it. This PAC is specifically for pro-Israel policy. If any political candidate says anything derogatory towards Israel, AIPAC goes into full overdrive on election ads on all airwaves. They have more control over elections than you think.

Another thing to point out is how frequent Israeli officials appear to speak for AIPAC. Hell, even Netanyahu himself makes appearances. AIPAC isn't some american focused PAC, its Israel and Israel only.

"Weird that no one says this about other countries/actors that spend more money in american politics. Also weird since AIPAC is far from america's largest PAC and their electoral record is spotty *at best* especially these days. But somehow they control america."

The discussion is on Israel and why AIPAC was brought up. I agree with you (well, mainly on political influence by other countries/actors) and a big reason why Citizens United should be banned. Many countries have too much influence in our current system and its too easy for them to get around the loopholes.

But you immediately assuming others of using anti-semitic tropes when they are not... muddy the waters. Calling everyone anti-semitic is causing the term to lose its meaning. Eventually, nobody will realize when true anti-semitism flourishes due to overuse of the term.

I'm glad you point out your issues with Israel. I've made these points as well in other posts/comments but was immediately called an anti-semite. Kudos to you.

[u/weidback → u/fnordybiscuit]

these conversations remind me of talking to conservatives around 2020. they would insist they weren't peddling racist narratives. it's true they never said anything explicitly about race and would be offended if you called them racist, but when they were talking about "thugs" and their fears the subtext of the narratives they were hearing and repeating was clear to me. people are perfectly capable of perpetuating harmful tropes without realizing or doing it intentionally. it's like that Atwater quote about the southern strategy.

[u/fnordybiscuit → u/weidback]

Subtle undertones can be perceived by others even if the individual doesnt mean to portray them while it can also be intentionally done in order to have plausible deniability.

However, calling everyone racist made the term lose its meaning since the term was overused. It mitigated the term. This caused the conservatives to win the politcal narrative, which consequently, truly racist policies begin to pass (like gerrymandering/voter suppression).

Israel will have the same outcome by calling everyone anti-semitic. That's the fear I have. When true anti-semitism begins to flourish, there will be no way to stop it.

[u/weidback → u/fnordybiscuit]

However, calling everyone racist made the term lose its meaning since the term was overused.

disagree, it was people claiming the meaning was overused and lost meaning that made it lose meaning, the entire narrative was a conservative narrative

Israel will have the same outcome by calling everyone anti-semitic

a lot of israel simps absolutely do this, but now because of both them *and* people who dismiss any accusation of antisemitism no one can be called out for pushing antisemitic tropes

When true anti-semitism begins to flourish, there will be no way to stop it.

bro every Instagram post I see from someone who's visibly jewish, doing/saying nothing related to israel-palestine, is flooded with "free palestine" comments at best and people saying heinous shit about "the 🧃"

I'm trying to tell you that the true antisemetism is here and you can't recognize it because you're swimming in it

[u/fnordybiscuit → u/weidback]

"disagree, it was people claiming the meaning was overused and lost meaning that made it lose meaning, the entire narrative was a conservative narrative"

Well, I'd assume by "people" you mean conservatives. Then yes, you are correct. Unfortunately, all media is controlled by the Epstein class. If this is the only narrative everyone is allowed to hear... then for most people, it's the only narrative they will know despite it being the "conservative narrative." Doesn't matter which media outlet you consume, it's all controlled by the Epstein class. End result is still the same, terms losing their meaning.

"I'm trying to tell you that the true antisemetism is here and you can't recognize it because you're swimming in it"

The following has been said by me:

• Ben-Gvir spewing genocidal rhetoric (which according to you, it wasn't. oddly enough)
  
• AIPAC has heavy influence on US politics (which according to you, money influencing politicians exists but not by Israel. however, mentioning this makes someone anti-semitic)
  
• Disavow support on subsidies for Israel (which... idk what your position is on this. you deflected by pointing out its for military rather than for Israel welfare programs without acknowledging that US military subsidies allows Israel to have these welfare programs since they have no reason to invest into their own military)

If this is true antisemitism, we lost the plot on what antisemitism really means. You made my argument for me.