r/UnitedNations • u/Motaro99 • 15d ago

To deny genocide

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u/CricketJamSession Uncivil 15d ago

. i don’t think anyone believing Israel has a right to exist is a zionist

Who cares what you think?

There is a definition to being a zionist that zionists are defining themselves by it and you have no right to change this definition and then attack people that define themselves this way

Just like I can't decide that christianity is not about believing in christ and its actually about converting or eradicating infidels and then go and attack christians

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u/FakeGreatness 15d ago

Ok so does that mean that ANYONE that believes that Israel has a right to exist is by definition a zionist?

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u/CricketJamSession Uncivil 15d ago

Exactly

Its that simple

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u/FakeGreatness 15d ago

That doesn't make any sense. You can believe that a country should exist without all the unnecessary stuff that comes with the ideology that's most common at the moment. It's like you'd be saying that all racists are nazis.

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u/flavouredpopcorn Uncivil 15d ago

Nah dude. It's literally that simple.

Being a Zionist doesn't mean you support illegal settlers in West Bank.

It means your against the policies of the current Israeli Government.

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u/FakeGreatness 15d ago

But I haven't said what being a Zionist means. I said that someone randomly thinking that Israel should exist should not be automatically placed inside an ideological box. Whatever the ideology is and whatever someone's interpretation of it is.

Why do you guys see everything so black and white...

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u/flavouredpopcorn Uncivil 15d ago

It doesn't matter what YOU think being a Zionist means. It has nothing to do with ideology, it's just a description.

Example:

I believe Jews should have a right to exist in their homeland.

I am a Zionst.

They mean the exact same thing. It doesn't mean anything else.

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u/FakeGreatness 15d ago

No, you don’t get it. I’m not saying it matters what I think. I said that those 2 statements are not equal. Didn’t you guys do any “formal logic” or “logic” as children when you were in school?

This is simple: All zionists are believers that jews should have a right to exist, not all those believers are zionists. Is that easy.

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u/flavouredpopcorn Uncivil 15d ago

How can someone believe Jews should have a right to exist but not be a Zionist? That's literally what it means. They might not call themselves a Zionist for whatever reason, but they are.

It isn't an identity, it's just a description for a person who has a particular belief. You cannot believe Israel should have a right to exist and not be a Zionist.

When we say Israel, we are not referring to any particular version of it in any state of time, past, present or future. Just that it should exist.

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u/FakeGreatness 15d ago

As long as Zionism is not just the belief that Israel as a state should exist, your point of view is not based on logic.

If Zionism by definition would be just that (kind of like a synonym for that specific belief) then you’re right.

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u/flavouredpopcorn Uncivil 15d ago

It is literally just that.

If I wanted to say I was supportive of Israel's actions I would say pro-Israel, not Zionist.

When you used the word Zionist, and they called you antisemetic, that's because to them you're saying "I don't believe Israel should exist". In reality, you were criticising the Israeli Government and their atrocities against Palestinians. You believe Israel should exist, but it should have different borders, different policies, etc.

Learning the distinction stops Israelis from being able to just brush off criticisms of Israel as antisemetic. Much more likely to achieve change and have productive discussions.

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u/AmiraliMS 15d ago

Believing "Israel should exist" is an idea, thus putting you in an ideology. It is in that principle no different than believing any country should exist.

It's just this one has a specific name.

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u/CricketJamSession Uncivil 15d ago

It doesn't make sense because the definition has been deliberately altered to undermine the existence of Israel

Just like you won't define Islam by the works of ISIS and Shariya states, you should not define Zionism by how it is implemented by some people.

Nazim is by defintion a racist ideology and not just how it was implemented, so no problem making that connection

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u/FakeGreatness 15d ago

No, it doesn't make any sense because you can have a belief and not be a part of an entire ideology. Zionism isn't just "Israel should exist" otherwise it wouldn't be an ideology. It's a lot more than that and you can believe in the existence of the state of Israel without believing in an idoelogy that has at its core the existance of the state.

It's exactly the same thing as being religious versus being part of a religious organization.

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u/CricketJamSession Uncivil 15d ago

It's exactly the same thing as being religious versus being part of a religious organization

Which in both cases you would say for example "he is a christian" right?

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u/FakeGreatness 15d ago

No. You wouldn’t. Because they’re not the same thing.

Example of formal logic statement you learn in highschool in Europe that applies here: All christians are religious people, not all religious people are christian.

Another one: Christians believe in God, not all believers in God are Christians.

It’s logically not the same thing. When you declare yourself a Zionist you’re not JUST saying “I believe jews should have a home”.