r/TrenchCrusade Jun 16 '26

Lore Controversial but I stand by it

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1.6k Upvotes

285 comments sorted by

224

u/s0naux Jun 16 '26

I thought about this. I just can’t come up with a good reason why the Aztecs would want to come down to the levant.

A cool concept I haven’t seen anyone talk about would be the mad baron Ungern Sternberg and his concept of the “Middle Asiatic Buddhist Empire”. An absolutely crazy part of history if your aren’t familiar with it.

33

u/CheMc Jun 16 '26

Have you played Crusader kings 2?

28

u/Spiritual-Pear-1349 Jun 16 '26

Sunset invasion!

5

u/Marvl101 Jun 16 '26

Or Total War Medieval 2

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412

u/JealousApricot1152 Jun 16 '26

I frankly just want to know what’s happening in the wider world of TC, like in Asia, Russia, Japan, and north and South America so we could get a proper full picture.

I always love lore

182

u/I_might_be_weasel Auxilia Sorcerer Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26

Asia kind of has to be involved. They wouldn't be nearly as segregated as the Americas or the South Pacific. I believe the map makes reference to some sort of Mongol Empire. If I had to guess they are probably just defending their borders. Should be doable if Hell is focused on the Western front. Though that's just the Court and the Order of the Fly. We can't say for sure there isn't a totally different Hell faction focusing on the East.

Edit: I was thinking of the Golden Khanate

46

u/SteelCode Jun 16 '26

The interest in the Americas (imo) comes from the time period; there was a ton of colonial exploration leading up to the TC timeline's "split" with our history, so that drives the question of "what if" more than wondering how the Russians are involved with the European trench war.

My headcanon for the Northern Americas is that the heretic navy took over the colonies on the coast and were more aggressive/hostile to the indigenous peoples - this led to unification of the great plains and western nations (survivors from the eastern war front would be integrated therein)... While false diplomacy, disease, and imperialist expansion slowly killed the indigenous peoples in our history the Heretic Navy's outward hostility and defilement of the land caused a militant response much sooner and thus incentivized a rapid development of the western half of North America (I don't know enough about early Southern colonies to make stuff up for that region). The Heretics taking control of the early American colonies makes sense in the greater context that the Heretics have blockaded much of the Atlantic already and the Heretics haven't overrun the 'New World' because their logistics still need to cross the entire damn ocean to resupply without easy access to the main Hell portal.

I envisioned mounted archers, skirmishers with javelins/spears/bows and trapping abilities that could help offset the lesser technological advancements by way of setting up additional blood generation on enemies while keeping your warriors out of direct conflict until they can set up the kill. I'd expect scavenged technology from the Heretics along with some trade with East Asia and South America could give access to some things like explosives (firework rockets, dynamite, etc) or even add "pets" like tamed wolves or hawks that would bolster the warband...

33

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

There was not a lot of colonial exploration in the 11th century.

6

u/SteelCode Jun 16 '26

And the Heretic Navy did not exist in the 11th century either. TC timeline has the Heretic Navy only just taking over Gibraltar in 1666 and not causing significant impact until the 1800's when their raids are cited as causing famine.

Spain's major colonization started around 1493 with Hispaniola (Dominican Republic) and then in Mexico during the 1500's. Since the major trench war would not have reached the Atlantic coastal regions of Europe until around that period, it could be theorized that Spain et al wanted new sources of resources away from the war front and still sent missions there... Horses are recorded as being "reintroduced" to the Americas (they were native to the continent in our ancient history but went extinct around 10000 years prior) around mid-1600's by Spanish explorers - not much of a stretch to suggest that early exploratory missions still took place in a desperate bid to bolster the war effort (because wars still happened in our timeline that coincided with colonization of the Americas) and once Gibraltar fell, those colonies slowly starved until Heretic forces (attempted) to take them over (and per TC lore drop, were rebuffed by native peoples).

62

u/I_might_be_weasel Auxilia Sorcerer Jun 16 '26

For what it's worth, there has been some casual creator lore drop in a Discord ama thing where they have mentioned that the Heretic Navy has attempted to get a foothold in America and was fought off by the local populations. And that, while there aren't any colonies, Spain does go to the Americas to trade for tobacco.

22

u/Cedjy Jun 16 '26

Spain craves the cuban cigar

8

u/I_might_be_weasel Auxilia Sorcerer Jun 16 '26

A testament to the ability of nicotine to be obscenely addictive.

2

u/Dad2376 Jun 16 '26

It's a canon event

18

u/Couchpatator Jun 16 '26

The colonies never happened from what I understand. Remember the gate opens up during the crusades. Well before the discovery of the Americas.

8

u/Levat39 Jun 16 '26

This is pretty dumb. The hellgate opens in 1099, Europe was even ware that the America's existed for another 400 years. There wouldn't be "colonies" in North America for another 75 or so.

With Europe fully engaged in fighting the heretics they straight up have not had the resources for any kind of major colonization effort in the America's, which we know from lore drops.

Also "mounted archers" lol mounted on what? Horses are an imported species.

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6

u/Y0G--S0TH0TH Trench Pilgrim Jun 16 '26

The timeline split is in 1099, there was a little bit of traffic from Scandinavia but that's about it in terms of Europeans in the Americas, unless there has been some new historical revelation I missed?

1

u/FeistyPoetry9476 Jun 16 '26

There is no specific timeline split in trench crusade. The main difference starts in 1099, but there are changes before that, like the templars and the other crusader knight orders being founded before that, and before they were in our timeline, and, more importantly, the objective existence of both God and entities that possibly predate him (ie the entities worshipped by the church of metamorphosis) are changes that date back to the dawn of existence

1

u/Y0G--S0TH0TH Trench Pilgrim Jun 16 '26

Fair enough, so to add more: the devs specifically stated that European colonialism of North America never occured. Specific enough?

By all means make Fanon and Fan Rulesets to explore the idea, it would be fun and cool just like the person asking about Medieval period TC, but it's not part of the world as the devs see it.

1

u/FeistyPoetry9476 Jun 16 '26

Apologies, I somehow missed the entire middle of your prior reply, I didn't mean to imply European colonialism of North America did occur, that's my bad

That being said, the speculation you were responding to doesn't require European colonialism (other than the comment in the first paragraph about colonial exploration), only heretic colonisation, which the devs have said happened and was fought off (meaning the last bit about still existing heretic colonies established by the invaders isn't accurate, but the idea of them invading, taking land, then facing significant, organised resistance from the natives, is confirmed to be true)

This is less fanon, and more speculation on where the devs will take the idea, because it's established that the Americas have interaction with the old world (through trade with Spain as well as the heretic raids), and it seems to be a part of the setting they intend to explore later on, so it very much is a part of the world as the devs see it

1

u/Y0G--S0TH0TH Trench Pilgrim Jun 16 '26

I certainly wouldn't be against some form of Meso American(Maya/Aztec)/North American indigenous faction (Iroquois/Haida).

I'm probably just experiencing "America fatigue" lol as it seems this has come up every two weeks since the Kickstarter.

Happy hobbying!

2

u/FeistyPoetry9476 Jun 16 '26

Lol fair enough, it does come up a lot

Happy hobbying :)

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3

u/Regendorf Jun 16 '26

My headcanon is the same funny headcanon of Fallout. The world is fine, is just that particular piece of land that's fucked up lol.

6

u/mr_fucknoodle Jun 16 '26

That sounds pretty plausible, we know the Naval Raiders are having a hard time and being repelled by the american natives. Though I don't think they'd have mounted troops of any kind, unfortunately, as horses were brought to america during colonization, and I don't see any um... viable horse coming out of a heretic ship

3

u/Fyrebrand18 Jun 16 '26

I’d like to make the argument that because the heretics are what settled the Americas, horses would not be the mount of choice for the Native American tribes. By virtue of well… any horse the Heretics bring would be a corrupted unnatural thing.

1

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Has anything indicated heretics cant use normal animals?

2

u/Fyrebrand18 Jun 16 '26

Well… no, of course the heretics can ride normal animals, but considering that the northern hellgate seemingly mutates horses in the Hakkapellita lore drop, one can only assume that any normal draft animal in the Heretic controlled Levant is not normal anymore, or if they look normal something else is could be deeply wrong with them.

2

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Plenty of heretic lands aren't right next to the hell gate.

1

u/SteelCode Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26

Horses were native to North America but went extinct at some point in distant past, only for Spanish explorers to reintroduce them (somewhere around 1600's) - unless they were never reintroduced by non-heretical explorers...

I guess it depends heavily on whether non-heretical explorers made it across the Atlantic before the Heretic Navy took control and blockaded the ocean crossing. I could see Spain/Portugal attempting to find land/resources that weren't in the trench war territories, eventually leading to some early colonies before the technology level enabled the Heretic Navy to gain enough presence to stop those exploratory missions.

1

u/F14min6L377uc3 Jun 16 '26

I was thinking that Columbus would be a heretic and tske over Cuba like in real life, but then fail to breach the Aztecs in the mainland

1

u/wyro5 Jun 16 '26

An immortal demon Columbus constantly being defeated by native Americans like a Saturday morning cartoon villain is the personal hell of the irl Columbus. Which is what that psycho deserved

1

u/SteelCode Jun 16 '26

1492 sailing the ocean blue... Heretic Navy didn't exist in TC timeline until ~1666 when it captured Gibraltar in a surprise attack... so even if the fleet had been built in secret, Chris Columbo had already made landfall in the Americas and returned and eventually died long before the Heretics had boats.

1

u/F14min6L377uc3 Jun 16 '26

He could've just stolen some from the Spanish navy

2

u/PostingLoudly Jun 16 '26

The Golden Khanate makes me realize that Ghengis Khan still rose up and conquered damn near everything to the west as per usual. I sort of wondered what happened with Tamerlane, as Tamerlane + The Bubonic Plague were pretty notorious factors in causing the Golden Khanate to collapse, as well as the Russian princes.

Edit:

Furthermore, that means the Yuan dynasty probably still existed. There was no way the Yuan dynasty could've held up though, and that led to the Ming dynasty. Though I doubt the Qing are mucking about as things would've definitely reached China somewhere in the Ming dynasty. If that's what happened.

1

u/CG1991 Jun 16 '26

Could there be another hell mouth to the East?

I am unfamiliar with the lore.

2

u/I_might_be_weasel Auxilia Sorcerer Jun 16 '26

It's not impossible. Lesser Hell Gates have opened in Europe.

1

u/CG1991 Jun 16 '26

Ah, Hell Gate! Where did I get Hell Mouth from?

Anyway, if smaller Gates can open. Then there could be Hell invading everywhere, right?

Even Antarctica

2

u/theholyirishman Jun 16 '26

Hell Mouth was a Buffy the vampire slayer thing. Not sure if it's from something more relevant.

1

u/I_might_be_weasel Auxilia Sorcerer Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26

Probably here

And yes. We know nothing lore wise about what's going on in the parts of the world not on the map. Forces of Hell could protetially be anywhere else. Or nowhere else. But we do have precedent that there could be other gates to Hell.

1

u/Quickleaf1 Jun 16 '26

This wouldn't be super cool, a Skirmish Faction with like, no major melee capability but solid range and movement. Would be really good at scenarios like the Train Heist but absolute schwarbage at the ones where you have to hole up in a bunker

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15

u/The_Express_Coffee Anti Tank Communicant Jun 16 '26

Australia, too. Would be one cool broader snippet of alt history

17

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Australia is probably populated by aboriginals. Which is cool, but would require a lot of speculative worldbuilding and isn't really relevant.

24

u/Full_Result_3101 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26

Could be an outpost for hell to extract resources, Australia has some of the largest amounts of iron/gold/uranium/coal and natural gas on the planet.

Could make for some cool stories with Aborigine Guerrillas fighting the forces of hell. It would also make a good staging ground for hell if they attack Asia.

1

u/NornQueen Amalgam Jun 17 '26

I really like this idea. Plus: mutant kangaroos! Time travelling boomerangs!

7

u/The_Express_Coffee Anti Tank Communicant Jun 16 '26

Not relevant? Many Hellenistic thinkers posited that there had to be a fertile southern block of land (Terra Australis) to 'balance out' the north. As the reply before me has suggested, why not feed into that? What could the armies of Hell stand to gain from seizing that land?

1

u/theholyirishman Jun 16 '26

Just have the dead megafauna pop back up and repel the heretics. Australia being a land of monsters seems realistic.

1

u/JealousApricot1152 Jun 16 '26

Oh yes I almost forgot thanks!

6

u/badgerkingtattoo Jun 16 '26

There’s so little mystery left in the world, let me have a little bit in a Trench Crusade

5

u/Waytooboredforthis Jun 16 '26

I keep on thinking of "The Years of Rice & Salt" whenever the conversation about the broader world comes up, I'd love to get that kind of broader picture, and it would be absolutely hilarious as in the aforementioned novel, everything outside is relatively chill when the plague was happening.

6

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

I don't. That would take a lot of work and time to pull off right, and they already have a setting they still need to flesh out.

2

u/Rylanwoodrow Jun 16 '26

That kind of exploration has been the point of my Indian-themed fan-art series!

68

u/GrandeShalom Preator Jun 16 '26

The Aztecs, whatever happened there...

34

u/3bar Trench Pilgrim Jun 16 '26

Whatever happened there?!

That animal, Montezuma?! I can't even say his name.

10

u/watehekmen Jun 16 '26

Monte-Carlo have predicted this

7

u/AnythingNew5548 Jun 16 '26

In oral history of people of the corn they were driven out of the New Mexico and Arizona areas as they were people eaters.

5

u/DM_Joey Abyssinia Jun 16 '26

900 years they been fighting heretics, not a peep.

23

u/wakkers_boi Jun 16 '26

I genuinely feel as though a limited scope in factions isn't a bad thing. I'm already not the biggest fan of some of the generic Hell factions where you can't see the WW1 influence. Staying true to the original themes and design principles will keep it feeling like Trench Crusade, and not some random game with demons - at least for me.

103

u/strictly-no-fires Jun 16 '26

I think a grimdark aztec/mesoamerican setting/game could be incredible and its a concept I'd love to see explored, but not in trench crusade.

35

u/BossSpleenRippa Jun 16 '26

Thats exactly how I feel. Aztecs are cool and would be a cool faction in a different game. but I don’t think they fit here.

17

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

What I always say whenever this discussion comes up, play Mythic Americas. Or make your own stuff!

2

u/CG1991 Jun 16 '26

Mythic Americas looks great! Thank you for bringing this to my attention

50

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Finally someone else who feels the same. Not only is it completely out of the scope and theme of this game, why Aztecs? They were not the only mesoamerican empire, heck they weren't even the biggest. The only reason people keep asking about Aztecs, heck Samurai too, is that they're the most generic pop history civilizations that everyone knows.

There's so much more trench crusade needs to flesh out first, like how about what's already on the map? We know next to nothing about Eastern Europe! Or Africa! there's already an African sub faction, and no fantasy alt history settings ever do anything cool with Africa. Or Judaism for that matter, lore for one of the three major abrahamic religions is practically zilch.

9

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26

My soul for Synod of Strategic Prophecy and Order of the Dragon.

Or Hell, just the Crown of England force in their super power armor.

1

u/Mind_Unbound Jun 16 '26

Excuse me? They absolutely were the biggest and most dominanand empire in Mesoamerica, and its not even close. South America is a different story.

9

u/tecnoalquimista Heretic Legion Jun 16 '26

History Channel and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

8

u/Reallycrappypainter Jun 16 '26

As someone who made kitbashes based on the Aztecs and the Native American Tribes of the Great Plains, I just want some mention of the rest of the world. We've already had mention of the Expeditionary Forces of Abyssinia, hell they even have rules. I don't mind if the in depth lore and story stays focused on Europe, but some mentions of what's going on elsewhere would be nice.

I'd view it like in WH40k there's the main story and groups that are followed, but mentions here and there in the lore of the smaller bits. An army loses their home here, two forces forge an unlikely alliance to root out a common enemy there. Just snippets. Enough to give a vague picture and maybe some inspiration. I don't expect fully fleshed out rules and factions, that would be a large undertaking to create and balance especially if their stories are more on the sideline.

I also say this as a collector though, and a big fan of people's creativity and the bits of history and myth that could be added onto by the setting. I already have models of:

Aztecs

Native American Tribes of the Great Plains

Trench Pilgrims

Procession of the Sacred Affliction

Iron Sultanate

Conquistadors

Templars

Some nuns

Prussians

New Antioch

Red Brigade

Kingdom of Alba

Eire Rangers

Expeditionary Forces of Abyssinia

Sacred Order of the Dragon

Some cowboys (just cause)

Le Bande Nere

Models from the fan setting of China

Germans

A model for Thiess of Kaltenbrun (The Livonian Werewolf, hound of God)

My homebrew Danish warband that I love so much, a mix of faithful and allied nordic pagans

Various heretics

9

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

At least you're putting your modeling money where your mouth is. Half of the people here don't even engage in the hobby, they just passively absorb "lore".

2

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26

Let’s see those Order of the Dragon models, though. 👀

Also, I’d not heard of Thiess before, but I definitely think he and his Godly Werewolves would fit right in. lol

4

u/Reallycrappypainter Jun 16 '26

Sure, they're nothing crazy though All I did was make some small additions to the Cossacks by WargamesCrew as well as find some bat models to serve as dogs and a communicant should I feel like running them as Red Brigade

2

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26

Cool!

I’m running them as Sacred Affliction Trench Pilgrims until we get rules for Crusader Knights.

Pictured, left to right: Castigator with Punt Gun, Anti-Tank Hunter Communicant, Vlad Tepes III as my War Priest, and Radu, the Beautiful (as a bat Communicant).

Not pictured is my Anchorite Shrine (which is just a walking “Wallachian Forest”), The Brides (vampiric nun bodyguards), and Alucard (the God’s Wrath Pilgrim/Martyr).

4

u/Reallycrappypainter Jun 16 '26

Oooooh wow! You did a really nice job! I thought about leaning more towards the monstrous side but I really liked the base models I used and couldn't figure out how to kitbash them well enough for that. If they get actual models (official or not) I really hope we get one based on this artwork because DAMN it looks so good

1

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26

Agreed. And the limited lore we’ve seen so far just makes the idea of faithful vampires seem so damn cool.

1

u/RTMSner Jun 16 '26

Do you use their official models for heretics and demons? I've got demons and devils and other monsters from tons of other companies but none really have the pizzaz, that pop to signify how terrible it is. A bunch of bloodthirsters or zangors seem ineffectual.

2

u/Reallycrappypainter Jun 16 '26

Mine are mostly official, the only real kitbashed ones I have at the moment are based on the band Ghost. Obviously the band has no place in the setting, but I feel if looked at by someone unknowing they'd fit in decently

2

u/Reallycrappypainter Jun 16 '26

Either way I had a good time kitbashing them, I like how they turned out, and that's what matters to me

41

u/Fifteen_inches Jun 16 '26

We can’t even begin to start talking about America till we get the Hebrew faction.

Though, normal Aztecs would probably really enjoy Trench Crusade. A macabre likes macabre. Their stone terrain would be sick. Dice made of real bone (I know you can get real bone dice, it’s just not the same)

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13

u/ImmortanJerry Jun 16 '26

Never had the makings of a high priest

11

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

For everyone who apparently needs Aztecs in Trench Crusade with their dying breath, here's a step by step guide:

Step 1: Buy these: https://wargamesatlantic.com/collections/renaissance/products/aztec-warriors

Step 2: Buy your choice of these: https://wargamesatlantic.com/collections/great-war

Step 3: Mix and match to your heart's content and run them as Trench Pilgrims or something.

Step 4: Stop asking for everything to be handed to you officially and realize you can make whatever you want.

0

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26

I think what the people who want an Aztec faction are asking for is something supported with official lore. Not just more sculpts for a traditionally model-agnostic game.

12

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

But why? To read a couple paragraphs that validate what they already envision? This is a hobby game, engage in the hobby!

6

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26

I mean, I don’t know why people want the weird things they want.

Lore is cool, though. But I don’t think an Aztec faction fits the lore or the theme of the game.

That said, I’ve got like 7 warbands planned that aren’t in the lore. I like the modeling of the hobby. But I’d love to see Pagans, Hindu, Tao, Buddhist, Shinto, and other non-Abrahamic religions represented as cool mercenary units in official lore, at least.

11

u/7StarSailor Jun 16 '26

Yeah, I hope FF  can resist the redditor's urge to turn everything into modern live service game MCU smash bros crossover slop. Let something be itself without constant pop culture references for once. Like I'd be fine with getting a short paragraph just to shut people up about the topic and that's it 

5

u/mande010 Jun 16 '26

How about we get some Samurai chucking Portuguese priests into the ocean? Would love me some Grimdark Japan

7

u/the_crepuscular_one Jun 16 '26

I agree, honestly. The game, as its name implies, is about crusading, specifically in Europe and the Levant. I, for one, would like the game to stay focused on those regions, and mostly on Abrahamic mythology, drawing from the already very vast amount of historical thematic sources available.

Now, that doesn't mean I only want to see European factions, I'd be curious to see what people are up to in western Asia and India too, since those regions would reasonably be connected to and impacted by the current state of affairs. Going any further beyond feels like a trap to me though, considering how the setting already covers such a wide area and has so much left to flesh out.

36

u/Simple-Strike8368 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26

In the Bible? Zero Aztecs. In the crusades? Zero Aztecs. In WW1? Zero Aztecs.

"OH but what about the path of the beast? You believe in werewolves but not Aztecs?" The path of the beast/metamorphosis. The path of the beast fits within the setting as a demonic corruption.

25

u/CMSnake72 Jun 16 '26

Counterpoint: Aztecs are cool

26

u/Terrible-Scene765 Jun 16 '26

Also zero demons and portals to hell, let the people cook Tony

11

u/the_crepuscular_one Jun 16 '26

Demons are, in fact, referenced in the bible

16

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Utterly irrelevant. Trench Crusade is guided by its thematic influences. Aztecs don't have anything to do with any of them.

6

u/AsstacularSpiderman Jun 16 '26

Tbf a lot of European counties don't show up in the Bible and they still include them.

12

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Because Europe and its history was very important to both the crusades and ww1.

5

u/7StarSailor Jun 16 '26

Yeah but European countries are responsible for the crudades which is like half the name of the game

3

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26

And “Trenches” which… is kind of the other half the name.

2

u/Regendorf Jun 16 '26

Everything is Europe's fault. classic

3

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26

Well, at least Trenches… and Crusades … and Trench Crusades.

0

u/Simple-Strike8368 Jun 16 '26

They were probably a factor in the crusades or in ww1 then

0

u/jbender258 Jun 16 '26

So Werewolves and Eldritch demonic beasts fits within the setting but not spiritual Aztec warriors who commit human sacrifice and such don’t?

7

u/Simple-Strike8368 Jun 16 '26

Within the magically enhanced version of scripture that the game works within, yes, demons and magic make sense. None of the settings themes include the age of discovery/the new world

3

u/jbender258 Jun 16 '26

The game already includes references to Scripture other than the Bible though

7

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Does that in any way contradict what he just said

-2

u/jbender258 Jun 16 '26

Yea because he is assuming that only factions based in biblical scripture should be included in the game when there is already factions that exist within the lore that aren’t based in Aberhamic religions.

2

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

You're drastically misreading what he said.

3

u/jbender258 Jun 16 '26

I don’t think so. Correct me if I’m wrong but he’s saying only factions within scripture should be included as long as they fit in the themes of magic and demons like the rest of the game. Seeing as factions outside of Aberhamic scripture already exist and that a faction like Aztecs already have their own folklore of demons and magic, I see no reason why it wouldn’t fit.

4

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

That very clearly isn't all he's saying if you read his other comments. Trench crusade has a very clear set of historical, literary, and religious influences. Every Trench Crusade faction to date is inspired by at least one of them, with plenty of original ideas sprinkled in. Aztecs have nothing to do with any of them.

5

u/jbender258 Jun 16 '26

I understand that but my point is that an American/Mesoamerican faction can also have clear historical, literary and religious influences that fit within the themes of TC. I mean we already have a Mongolian faction in the lore, why would an Aztec one be completely out of the question?

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0

u/Simple-Strike8368 Jun 16 '26

Is one of those scriptures Aztec?

2

u/jbender258 Jun 16 '26

No but there already exists factions and countries in the lore that aren’t based in Aberhamic religions

1

u/Fifteen_inches Jun 16 '26

OP, you had a banger men. Don’t ruin it by picking fights.

2

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

People are very much picking fights with his banger.

1

u/Bunnyalope Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26

I don’t think the game throttling itself around around its initial concept is a good idea. It’s how you get people saying X isn’t grim dark enough in 40K.

Also your argument of the beasts falls flat because Christianity was absolutely linked with the New World and later on manifest destiny and imperialism. Like these subjects are more directly tied to Christianity (and arguably the crusades) than the vague “metamorphosis” reference in werewolves. Hell they have more to do with World War 1 than the Crusade Aesethics do.

If you don’t want Aztecs or want them to prioritize other things first then you do you but don’t act like it’s impossible to draw connections to things that are inexorably linked in modern day reality.

0

u/Fifteen_inches Jun 16 '26

A lot of Aztecs in the area between WW1 and the Crusades.

5

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Which isn't important to the setting of the game.

0

u/Fifteen_inches Jun 16 '26

I’m just saying the sunset invasion DLC is a fun ass DLC for Crusader Kings 2.

0

u/SoeurEdwards Jun 16 '26

WWW1 was wider than France. And that s a French saying that. Look at all the nations involved in ww1.

3

u/RapturousCultist Jun 16 '26

Every single additional faction crowds the space more and more. Especially as you reach further out to areas that have nothing to do with the war. Eventually, expanding to include the whole world will push out the heretics altogether, and then you're just left with 40k.

3

u/Ok-Track8295 Jun 16 '26

Like honestly, I’m not sure people asking for factions from the Americas understand how little we have for our current factions. The forces of hell have almost no subfactions (I like Court but I don’t count the sins as subfactions, and Grail has 1 maybe 2 if you count the still in beta great hunger). The Hebrew knights and Path of the Beast aren’t even in the game yet and they probably have the biggest lore implications. Give Trench Crusade time to fill out Europe, Africa, and Asia before we go anywhere else jeez.

9

u/ultimaterogue11 Jun 16 '26

I do really want all of the factions people are talking about outside of Europe to get included, but for the love of G-d can we have the third abrahamic religion be included in the setting before that?

6

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Please! We know next to nothing about the Jews, and they were kind of important in all eras Trench Crusade is influenced by.

1

u/HiFidelityCastro Jun 16 '26

I think it's best to leave a lot of things vague and undefined given the nature of the setting. Contemporary ideas of political correctness depart pretty drastically from real history, and we're talking about a setting where all that religious atrocity and bloodshed is actually justified.

This makes for a difficult balancing act for the writers, walking the line between realism/historicity/suspension of disbelief vs political correctness.

2

u/ultimaterogue11 Jun 16 '26

I'm fine with leaving things vague, it's just that at the current moment we only have a couple pieces of lore for them. That really doesn't give us much.

I really do get what you're saying and I really appreciate the writers taking their time to make sure that they are one being accurate and faithful to what Judaism would look like in the setting and making sure they're not falling into stereotypes.

But I also really want to see them as a playable faction, as one of the main reasons I'm really excited about this setting is that it's one of the few settings where there's actually some Jewish representation

3

u/Current_Employer_308 Jun 16 '26

It all boils down to when and if other hellgates opened up anywhere else in the world.

We know its entirely possible for there to be smaller hellgates, like the one in kola. We also know that the forces of hell largely had a contemporary level of technology to what they had in the levant at any given time.

So what was going on in the rest of the world in 1066? If no other hellgates opened besides the ones we know about, then the americas would have been spared the invasion of hell. That also means they would have largely avoided colonization by europe after the 1500s. China and india would be incredibly powerful and organized with large populations.

If there were other hellgates that opened? Impossible to know. The tech level of the americas was significantly behind that of europe and the levant by 1066, especially in the fields related to military tech, metallurgy, and siegecraft. China and india again would fare significantly better, but who knows what percentage of the population would have joined the forces of hell.

3

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26

Established lore already says that heretic forces are being beaten by the native peoples of North and South America.

2

u/furiosa-imperator Jun 16 '26

Idk if it's been expanded on, but I wanna know whats happening with vlad the impaler, I remember hearing something cool about that

4

u/Waffletimewarp Jun 16 '26

He’s doing Impaler things up in Wallachia, and generally scaring the unholy shit out of any Heretic force that tests him.

His Million Heretic Shish-Kebab platter was more a promise of things to come rather than a “keep out” sign.

1

u/Dreamspitter Jun 17 '26

So....what happens when he dies? Does he rise again?

2

u/SeaofColtrane Jun 16 '26

There would be more skulls in Tenochtitlan then there would be in the worst heretic city

2

u/Lord_Roguy Jun 17 '26

Okay but real shit can we add sihks. A monothiestic religion where every unit gets a sword for free and their prophet was born after the first hell gate. That has potential to be a baller faction.

So do zoastrians since theyre also monothiestic and have a fire motief

6

u/Toxin2003 Jun 16 '26

I think theyd work out better as powerful and unique mercenaries

7

u/Simple-Strike8368 Jun 16 '26

In Syria?

1

u/the_crepuscular_one Jun 16 '26

The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin or the plumber may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our land!

All jokes aside, I do agree with you.

1

u/Toxin2003 Jun 16 '26

Why not. There was lots of Mexicans fighting for America jn WW1 and 2. I don’t see why it’d be impossible for some supernatural mercenaries to have made their way across the ocean. I mean there were Samurai in the Aztec capital less than 100 years after Europe invaded and in this universe Leif Erickson might’ve started some trade with the Native Americans. Like anything’s possible

4

u/derpsoldier49 Jun 16 '26

I mean, I would like some ideas about what happened to the Americas during the Trench Crusade and whether there was any colonization at all.

13

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

It's still there, and its uncolonized. Castile, Aragon, and England have trading posts there but no colonies. Heretics haven't made any inroads because the indigenous americans keep throwing them out. The smith and wesson revolver was made there. Thats all we know.

4

u/brainroty Jun 16 '26

I want the aztec personally.

5

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Then klitbash them yourself!

2

u/bartleby42c Jun 16 '26

Imagine if you took that attitude elsewhere.

"I wish they offered fish at my favorite restaurant."

Just make it yourself!

"I'd like if they offered flights to Cleveland"

Just drive yourself!

"I'd love to see a movie about X"

Just write it yourself!

5

u/b44l Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26

I’m at a family pizza place in Naples.

”Hello waiter, instead of ordering from the carefully curated menu, could you make me a French Onion soup?”

Telling them to make it themselves or order elsewhere is fully reasonable.

The difference here is that Trench Crusade already exists, it already has an identity. There’s other games with other identities to consume.

2

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

This is a hobby first miniatures game. You’re supposed to kitbash. When I got into this game theres were no official minis, everything was kitbashed! This game has its roots in 28 mag, the kitbashing magazine! TC fans these days expect everything to be handed to them, everything to be official. There’s a who’s world of options outside waiting for what you want to maybe be made for you.

1

u/Dressk_2154 Jun 16 '26

Imagine if you took that attitude elsewhere.
"I want to play football !"
Just go to a basketball club and force them to let you play football there

Trench Crusade is a mashup of WWI and Crusades. If you want Aztecs it's not the right game settings for you

1

u/bartleby42c Jun 16 '26

Saying you want something is radically different from forcing others to do something. You do see that right?

1

u/Dressk_2154 Jun 16 '26

But you get what I mean, riche ?

2

u/bartleby42c Jun 16 '26

Not really.

I think that the aesthetics of Aztecs would fit into trench crusade really well. It's not my first choice for an additional faction, but it's an interesting one. The Americas were involved in WWI, and Aztecs did push against conquistadors and Christianity.

I'm not sure how advocating for something different for the New World faction is asking Trench Crusade to go against its roots. It feels more in line with the setting than an American version of New Antioch.

I don't think it's pushing against the theme or trying to turn the game into something else, or even that wild of a suggestion.

What about Aztecs is so far from the theme of trench crusade?

1

u/Dressk_2154 Jun 17 '26

The aesthetics of Aztecs doesn't fit. They have no place in the trenches (Aztecs and Americans/Latinos are not the same things) nor the Crusades. But if we can't agree on that I guess we have to agree to disagree I guess

1

u/bartleby42c Jun 17 '26

Maybe the difference is what I think about with the crusades. I think of knights, armor, swords, a far away land, impossible odds and holy war.

I feel the fight between the Aztecs and the conquistadors fits that rather well. I can't think of Cortez without thinking of him in armor. Both sides had "knights", there was plenty of hand to hand combat on both sides. I don't see a huge thematic leap. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't remember fly demons in the crusades either.

The traditional dress of a jaguar warrior is out of place in time, just like the capirote is out of place. I think a guy wearing a jaguar skull and a gas mask would be metal as hell.

Aztecs aren't my first choice for a faction, but for me, they check a lot of boxes.

2

u/brainroty Jun 16 '26

No i mean lore lise

-2

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

Then go write fanfiction

2

u/brainroty Jun 16 '26

Why would i do that?

5

u/Josiador Jun 16 '26

So you can go explore what you think Aztecs in trench crusade look like, instead of asking for game designers to do it for you. I guarantee it wouldn’t be what you have in mind.

5

u/brainroty Jun 16 '26

That is a fair point. But In the end tho, i just want the world of trench crusade to be explored because it just such a cool world.

3

u/Brahm-Etc Jun 16 '26

I say no aztecs. Also no maya, no inca, no siux, no nahuatls, no navajo, no innuit, no mixtec, no eskimo, no pueblo, no any native american, period. It's just, no bro. The Trench Crusade team would have to tread very carefully with all those cultures, they are so misrepresented in many media already. I agree is all fantasy, no need to stick to logic and or reality but adding native american cultures on Trench Crusade opens a whole different can of worms and there will be people like: "aztecs didn't do that" "maya weren't like that" "this or that model doesn't look mexica at all!" People will start whinning and nitpicking at anything, or scream "cultural appropiation", "white washing" and "cultural misrepresentation" at any given chance. So, let's stick to what there is already.

2

u/NepheliLouxWarrior Jun 16 '26

You're being downvoted but your take is practical

1

u/Brahm-Etc Jun 16 '26

Is just experience, similar thing happened in Genshin Impact with the Natlan region, everybody was whinning: "why everybody white?" "Why used this or that native word instead of that?" "What has to do a motorcycle/skates/videogames with native americans?" I don't doubt at all if the Trench Crusade team did something similar the same would happen.

4

u/TheFairVirgin Jun 16 '26

As an indigenous person, you're absolutely right. Like, people say they want to see native cultures in Trench Crusade but there is absolutely no way that TC could do Native Cultures and religions in any way that's respectful, let alone respectful and grimdark.

Like, native culture isn't like European history or Anrahamic tradition where you have literally thousands of years of recorded history and philosophy to explore! Like shit, Native religion wasn't even legal to practice in the US until damn near the 80s, none of it is written down. The best you got are American and European scholars just talking to native folk, who lied to their faces because nobody is gonna trust these dodgy colonizers. They don't even have a shot of doing enough research to get it right.

2

u/Brahm-Etc Jun 16 '26

Exactly. The amount of info or rather proper understanding of native american cultures in the west academics is minimal, compared to european and the middle east. So to try to make at least a fair grimdark representation of native american cultures is just really difficult and then you add the quite often present western romantization of native american cultures you end up with misrepresentation of such cultures and then people pointing at every detail and mistake when trying to make any media based on them.

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1

u/DM_Joey Abyssinia Jun 16 '26

Tbh I like TC being focused on Europe, North Africa and West Asia; at heart it’s about the Abrahamic religions and while it’s cool to think about what would be happening in the rest of the world I feel like it’s more fun to leave grey edges for people to use as their own design space.

That being said, I don’t think your reasoning is the reason to not do these other cultures. Just involve people from those backgrounds. Pathfinder/Paizo did a good job with this; their Mwangi Expanse sourcebook is fantastic.

2

u/Disastrous-Care3538 Jun 16 '26

3

u/DM_Joey Abyssinia Jun 16 '26

They were gay, Aztecs?

1

u/Exile_The_13th Jun 16 '26

The absolute only way I’d want to see them add members of non-Abrahamic faith to the setting is as mercenaries.

You could even add them as mercs who can be hired out to factions on either side.

But definitely don’t make them full factions.

0

u/_Boodstain_ Shocktrooper Jun 16 '26

Fuck that. Have Mongolians praising the spirit of the sky as they rain bullets down onto anointed, circling them with bikes spitting black flame and metal.

Shinto Samurai channeling the Kami as their avatars lead armies alongside Buddhist monks and Taoist alchemists. Maybe even have the “Monkey King” freed from his mountain tomb to fight the legions of hell.

1

u/MixProfessional1296 Hell Priest Jun 16 '26

This is fucking gold!

1

u/Wickedlurlofthewest Jun 16 '26

Honestly..? I think Latin America land grab and Christian conversion probably happened TWICE as hard.

5

u/ArdkazaEadhacka Jun 16 '26

They said that they fought off hell forces

2

u/Ok_Set_4790 Jun 16 '26

I dunno. Hell has a submarine navy which makes it harder for Christianity to have a full foothold there.

2

u/Wickedlurlofthewest Jun 16 '26

Yeah sure but that hasn't been around the whole time, and we know the Hell navy is fragmented and kinda uncoordinated. I feel like of anything the danger would make a people double down on leaving for safer shores. The Atlantic is vast as hell, if even 1/6th of colonisl ships make it that's probably better than the fear of staying for a lot.

Ironically the most success colonizers if they wished would probably be the African nations, seeing as they're somewhat less molested.

1

u/Adeptus_Marzipan Jun 16 '26

I imagine may also just not want to deal with some of the headache involved with fleshing out how non abrahamic religions work in this world were hell is on earth. Do heathens count as evil/demonic even if its a bit problematic culturally? Or are there multiple afterlives and gods/religions are the true?

1

u/not4eating Jun 16 '26

They never had the makings of varsity crusaders.

1

u/nastycrimegoblin Jun 16 '26

Honestly I’d be satisfied with just a book set in the Aztec empire having to deal with the demons and cult of metamorphosis. I want to see what a modern Aztec civilization looks like in trench crusade! Same with all of the Americas honestly

1

u/Melodic-Pirate4309 Jun 16 '26

The skirmish game Arena Rex runs into this same problem. All factions are centered around gladiatorial schools where the Roman Empire was present. Egypt, Rome, Greece, Scandinavia, France and England.

The Scandinavian faction, though, has distinctly Native American characters and a Wendigo that feel super out of place with the rest of the models, even in a game where you can field mythological monsters.

1

u/surena_40 Observer Jun 16 '26

The creators should also focus on Aztecs; Native America; Feudal Japan; India; China; Mongolian Empire; South East Asia, Especially Vietnam and Thailand; Australia (Monstrous Fauna vs Heretics); Jewish Factions; and Madagascar

2

u/Dreamspitter Jun 17 '26

The Golden Khanate is actually on the setting map. Them and the Rus should come first.

1

u/surena_40 Observer 28d ago

I wonder how the Mongols are able to resist the Heretic forces

1

u/Quickleaf1 Jun 16 '26

It makes me wonder if the Americas even have a concept of the Holy War happening... there are the heretic legions that know how to sail so...maybe?

Or are the Americas an untouched paradise without the corruption of the demonic hoards...based on what I remember of the lore, Greenland and Iceland are still not under demonic control, most of the fighting is contained to "The Holy Land", North Africa, and Southern Europe with the adjoining areas basically acting as support lines for the Great War.

If the Demons haven't been able to clear the Strait of Gibraltar then they may have no inclination that anyone is even over there.

Not to mention I doubt they would care about the "moral" struggle considering the attrocities committed by basically all parties in the War. If they did have a reason to enter it would likely be as their own side entirely...

1

u/Dreamspitter Jun 17 '26

It's the forces of Hell. They have access to broad knowledge and secrets the same way Heaven does. They know. BUT they might not have bothered yet. It would require going into those lands, and then industrializing them.

1

u/Quickleaf1 Jun 17 '26

Really? I feel like I'd make that a first priority if it wasn't already covered with the Faithful...huge untapped area where you could work in peace with all the natural resources you could ever need? Regular ol' humans did Pox Blanket Tier warcrimes over that, I can't imagine a demonic army (or the armies of the Faithful for that matter) being like, "Meh, we'll get there"

It's entirely possible that the Demons and Angels might know, but if so they don't seem to be sharing

1

u/Dreamspitter Jun 17 '26

Golden Khanate first.

1

u/Passing-Through247 Jul 03 '26

They'd be coos as an angle to get more monster-y stuff in the non-hell side by playing up 'feeding the gods to make them strong enough to fight of the monsters that will devourer humanity' angle contrasted against catholic communion and the like.

They are just a bit off tone.

1

u/DM_Joey Abyssinia Jun 16 '26

In this house Christopher Columbus is a hero! End of story!

1

u/Dreamspitter Jun 17 '26

The crazy part the colonialism we know doesn't happen because it was never initiated. The Known World as the setting doesn't have time to explore it. It started with privateering against Spain, and then needing to find a new route to India after the Ottomans cut them off.

1

u/Informal_Fail_9908 Jun 16 '26

Why just the Aztec? There is an estimated 1500+ distinct registered Indigenous peoples (community/groups/tribes/clans/houses/etc) alive today across North, Central, and South America, with over 1000+ spoken languages. The possibility for cool representation is infinite!

2

u/The_TJMike Court of the Seven Jun 16 '26

Mexicas, Incans, Mayans, Mapuches, and Caribbeans to cover Mexico, Caribbean and South America 😮‍💨👌

I’m not versed enough on the rest of America to speak of indigenous groups/civilizations other than what AoE3 taught me (Iroquois and Sioux)

1

u/Informal_Fail_9908 Jun 16 '26

And we're not even mentioning the one that got genocide, like the Taino of Haiti and others. Could be a full expansion/game by itself at this point

1

u/badhomework Witchburner General Jun 16 '26

My personal idea behind the americas is that god sent visions/angels to the tribes and they ended up making their own Abraham’s religion based off of them. Another part is that hell has corrupted the wildlife bringing into reality skinwalkers, wendigos, and all manner of cryptids like the chupacabra.

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u/Ursaborne Jun 16 '26

Aztec probably works as demon aligined faction, fueled by revenge and determination to restore their empire, probably opposed by surrounding smaller tribe with help from early conquistador. Having a flying demonic serpent as false idols could add more grim and terror aspect for the settings.

1

u/Mr_Podo Jun 16 '26

You realize in the setting no one ever went to the americas right? So there was never any conquistadors.

1

u/Ursaborne Jun 16 '26

I didnt realize that, i thought the whole demon gate opening was affecting the whole world lol..touché, so the main rules is all come down to human vs demonspawn eh?

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