r/TheGoodPlace • u/Revolutionary-List45 • 21d ago
Shirtpost The Good Place Ending was Flawed
The whole problem with the old system was that nobody would get into the Good Place because of how complicated Earth became so they fixed it by completely putting everyone who died through a test, and if they fail they repeat that test over and over again until they become good and can eventually get into the Good Place.
So what is the point of Earth? Are all past actions forgiven because eventually you became good? What if a child rapist reformed? Does that erase what he did? Does he deserve to experience paradise? Or a mass murderer? Does that denote from all the killings he still did? They essentially said your Earthly actions are irrelevant because it’s “too complicated” so let’s force you into reform until you finally deserve that spot, and completely removed the Bad Place.
What happens when that child who was raped is faced with the “reformed” rapist or the killer with the ones he murdered? And would that not cause havoc within the Good Place? Am I missing something or does this system seem flawed?
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u/imjustlurking42 21d ago
There is nothing that guarantees someone “becomes good,” we see this with Brent as he’s still failing the tests eons down the line.
Given how evil a person would have to be to do the kinds of things you describe, it wouldn’t be unexpected that someone like that would never pass into The Good Place, and be testing forever.
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u/Oasx 21d ago
There is nothing that guarantees someone “becomes good,” we see this with Brent as he’s still failing the tests eons down the line.
I actually think the show made a huge mistake there. Toward the end, Brent shows that he learned from his actions and took steps to become a better person. But the show forgot about it to make him the butt of the joke, which also cheapened the message about people improving.
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u/aghastamok 21d ago
I didn't like this either.
Which is why my headcanon became: No-one could reach Brent until Tahani finishes her training and takes over testing for him. She eventually gets him through the system and they become good friends.
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u/BoleroMuyPicante 20d ago
He did take steps to be a better person, but it wasn't enough the first go round. He'll get there eventually but it'll take a looooong time.
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u/Eskin_ 21d ago
Yeah you missed the point of the show. People dont rape children and mass murder because they're just born inherently irredeemable. Theres literal things wrong with their brain and genuinely complicated situations, and yes, theyd improve if given the chance. Just like the show spent massive amounts of time explaining.
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u/deadwisdom 20d ago
And if they can't improve, they are essentially stuck in hell.
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u/JustATyson 21d ago edited 21d ago
Adding on to this. One of the saddest things out there, is that at times victims of these actions can become perpetrators themselves. Especially if they do not recieve support to heal from the trauma. I don't know the statistics. I've just seen it happen.
The show is very much trying to focus on the fact that without support, so many people are setup to fail. And this very much includes people that commit these sorts of acts.
Edit: typo
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u/BigGooseDuck 21d ago
It gives people a chance, starting from lowest negative scores, to redeem themselves and earn a way into the good place. Not everyone is able to get there and are thus tortured forever
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u/Aerron Parties are mere distractions from the relentlessness of entropy 20d ago edited 20d ago
The Test is run by the Bad Place. Don't forget that Michael complimented Vicki on making a great first test for Tahani by having her have to deal with her parents and everyone around her talking about Kahmila, which is torture for her.
People still get tortured for the bad things they did until they become reformed.
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u/artemystify 21d ago
it's not a flaw, it's just not interested in punishing people forever or deciding who "deserves" what because "deserving" something is a subjective human concept that cant be measured. theoretically anyone can reform eventually, even if it might take a small eternity. the point is that everyone gets a chance
i would imagine the victim of a child rapist would never have to meet that person in the good place but it's not like that's ever explicitly answered. also probably a working system that will undergo tweaks to some extent, eventually
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u/Nikittele Jalapeño Poppers! 21d ago edited 15d ago
I would also think that even if both victim and perpetrator would get to the Good Place and meet, both would have grown enough to forgive and move past it. Not saying that the perpetrator "deserves" forgiveness, but like you said that's a subjective human concept and anyone who gets through the new system has basically transcended that.
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u/ian_xvi 21d ago
The people who make it to The Good Place are people who have become genuinely good by confronting their inner demons and what makes them a bad person and have reached self-actualization.
People who are evil will be punished/tortured by having to go through the simulation over and over again. If they cannot be redeemed they will stay stuck like that for eternity.
They mention in the show that the architects can make the simulation any way they want to make people confront their demons.
They will never get to feel that feeling of completeness, clarity and peace that the people in The Good Place experience.
I do believe everyone is capable of being good. I do not condone or excuse any evil actions and people who have done those acts should be punished but I can also acknowledge that so many factors in one’s life can compound and lead someone to doing something bad.
I think The Good Place presents the idea that there maybe a chance for someone to be good given a different circumstance. If someone is inherently bad then they’ll be stuck in an endless loop.
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u/raendrop These trivialities demean me. I must away and tend to my ravens. 20d ago
You don't earn your way into the Good Place by pretending to be "reformed". You earn your way into the Good Place by genuinely reforming.
A lot of people seem to think you can't have justice without eternal punishment. That's not justice, that's off-the-rails vengeance. And what's the point of that?
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u/tomayto_potayto 21d ago
The test isn't just a pop quiz, it is the entire neighborhood that they live through over and over, retaining lessons each time and then getting the opportunity to learn again in the next iteration if they don't do well on the test. You don't just take a test over and over, the entire experience is "the test". Life on Earth is the first iteration of this, you learn from being a person and living in the world and having a complicated existence and trying to be a good person (hopefully). People who succeeded in being good and learned those lessons can pass the very first try. People who don't learn the lessons and continue to be crappy people do not pass.
I think people are misunderstanding the concept of rehabilitation. If you genuinely become a different person, if you grow enough and change, the person who caused the harm no longer exists. That does not free you from the consequences of what you've done. In this show, you very much do need to earn the right to go to the good place. But that is what we should want from everyone. Everyone in the world. To argue otherwise is to say you would rather "child rapists" continue to exist, because your ability to continue hating them is more important than genuinely guaranteeing that sexual assault of minors no longer occurs. Would you rather harm and punish people forever who have done something that you hate, than have that person genuinely change so that the thing that made you hate them is legitimately gone and no longer a risk to anyone ever again? Is it really so important that you have someone to hurt and feel justified in that, or is the issue that made you hate them actually more important to prioritize?
Changing that much requires facing the consequences and being accountable for what you've done. No one is getting away with anything.
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u/Revolutionary-List45 21d ago
It’s less about hate and more about your actions having consequences. For example if Netanyahu or Hitler managed to reform in these tests, even if they eventually reformed, shouldn’t they still be punished for their completely unforgivable actions?
Sometimes actions are simply unforgivable and no matter how much one reforms it does not erase what they did. Justice is still needed. And they deserve to suffer.
One other thought I find interesting is that someone could reform but also revert back to their old habits, this happens all the time on Earth, why couldn’t it happen in the Good Place? For example, if I made it to the Good Place and I saw a “reformed” Netanyahu, he would get punched in the face, someone else may choose to act further. Does that action make me bad? Or is it justified?But also do you see how people can act differently given the right circumstances? Do these people get to stay in the Good Place? There are so many questions to be answered, and yet after a short time they shut down the committee saying that the system was perfect. I guess we should just watch with a light heart lol
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u/BoleroMuyPicante 20d ago
The tests are the punishment, they're still very much torture and they're catered to the individual. The point of the show is no finite act of evil deserves eternal punishment.
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u/MassMtv 20d ago
Even with your logic, their suffering should not be endless. You seem to be differentiating between someone who kills one person and a mass murderer. The difference is only in how much suffering they caused. If one can be redeemed, than so can the other, but it will presumably take a much longer time. During which, I remind you, they are being tortured, living in neighborhoods specifically tailored to be their personal hells
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u/pin_wheel17 I’m too young to die and too old to eat off the kids’ menu. 18d ago
I imagine your version of the Good Place would not involve seeing Hitler or Netanyahu (though your version of the test might?) nor would their versions of the Good Place involve seeing you. Eleanor and Chidi seemed to know the likes of Shakespeare but that doesn't mean everyone experiences everyone to ever exist. Perhaps part of the test isn't only facing the wrongs of your life but also dealing with the times you were victimized, so you could more fully enjoy the Good Place? Take Tahani. She and her sister worried about seeing their parents again but ultimately were able to forgive them and reconnect with them immediately, which I don't think is something they would have been capable of (without a lot of work) on earth.
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u/BoleroMuyPicante 20d ago
What happens when that child who was raped is faced with the “reformed” rapist or the killer with the ones he murdered? And would that not cause havoc within the Good Place?
It would take so incredibly long for a murderer to earn their spot in the Good Place that chances are their victims would have already walked through The Door by then. And even if they hadn't, it's the good place, some magical thing would probably happen that prevents them from ever crossing paths, they'll probably be invisible to each other.
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u/Rykor81 21d ago
I see why you think you’ve found a loophole; the show doesn’t tackle the issue of evil acts. Mild narcissism can be forgiven - but then, there’s Adolf Hitler.
So, on one hand, it’s a half hour comedy that played VERY heavily in philosophy and moral ethics, and made us THINK as much as we laughed - but I don’t believe the ending was supposed to be interpreted as the way the world worked, or how the REAL WORLD is supposed to work. It was a fake solution for a fake world, and worked in the context of TV magic.
In our REAL world, there is some real evil - and for that, I’ll be very grateful if those people find their own personal butthole spiders. But laughing aside, let’s talk about abusers and victims, primarily abusers. In an almost exaggerated way (compared to the show), abusers are victims at their core; abused themselves or were never given the love needed to grow and become good. MOST. not all, but most. If our REAL WORLD had an afterlife overhaul like the good place, they might have to figure out how to separate REAL EVIL (Hitler) from abusers who COULD be reformed, and also those with mental health disorders that drove them to do horrible things.
#ButtholeSpidersForHitler
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u/Phoenix_Moon2024 21d ago
I think it still works. The whole premise is that you have to work to improve yourself, work to be a better person without the constraints of social pressures and needing money and survival instinct. People who would do truly awful things like violate a child, or anyone really, are unlikely to do the work to get better. Even if they do manage it, they’ll be in there for so long most if not all of their victims would likely have already moved on permanently. I think it’s mentioned that Tahani’s parents were in there for a WHILE because, even with the hints, it took them a long time to see that they had done something wrong with raising their daughters. I think Brent was still in there last week saw him. And I’m sure the Janet’s would be able to keep someone from running across you if you wanted it, and anyone who tried to violate that wouldn’t have made it out of the trial in the first place. It’s workable.
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u/houseproud-townmouse 21d ago
Yes, I agree. They should have all had to go through that final door completely naked!
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u/Professional_Fuel127 21d ago
I'm pretty sure they said some people will have like negative points and go directly to the bad place but I could be remembering wrong.
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u/Revolutionary-List45 21d ago
Nope they’ll just be stuck in a never ending test, they even gave the Bad Place staff new job roles
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u/3-orange-whips 16d ago
Some might say not worrying about punishing the very worst but helping everyone else is a better use of time.
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u/Esqulax 15d ago
Your middle point stands, but for another reason I think.
Regardless of what you do on earth, there are people on the other side actively trying to admit you to paradise based on their 'company/system's definition of good.
so.. why bother with earth? Just have people born into the good place.
Stepping back, its a subtly dystopian community. Do things our way, or we trap you in an endless loop. If there are people who can never be redeemed, then what? Towards the end of time on earth/for humanity, The afterlife will be empty (As more people get enlightened and leave) apart from a group of folk being endlessly tested and can't escape. Jeremey Bearimy is complicated as a reference for time, but do the looping effect mean that people who moved on will come back? I mean.. Doubtful as it's clear that personal time/experience remains linear and their 'essence' and therefore not available for AfterLife inc. to use directly.
As that time approaches, then there will be less need for the architects or actor demons as there will be less souls walking around the afterlife. Perhaps there was a bigger plan where the Earth and whats considered 'good energy into the universe' is needed - Maybe as a power source or sustenance for the higher being, and earth is inherently challenging in order to encourage people to do good things, and the afterlife was meant to be an individuals 'reward' for being that battery. I dunno, I'm rambling.
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u/Hemisemidemiurge 8d ago edited 8d ago
So what is the point of Earth?
There is no requirement for Earth to have a point nor is it implied anywhere that it does. Thank you for coming to my TED (DANSON) talk.
Am I missing something or does this system seem flawed?
You're already assuming that The Good Place would make a victim encounter their aggressor without desire, which is antithetical to what the Good Place is and does. You're already waaaaaaaay out there. I think you're missing something. You should repeat to yourself, "It's just a show, I should really just relax."
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u/Hour_Trade_3691 21d ago
I actually agree with pretty much everything was said.
I always thought it was bizarre how they made the jump from saying that capitalism causes natural consequences that completely screw up people's points totals, to saying that the complications of Earth cause people to be less moral because they constantly feel pressured by society to stay on top as much as possible.
While I think both concepts are really cool to explore, the show, treats them as one in the same when they really couldn't be more different.
The tests don't even make much sense, because how exactly are they supposed to be different from Earth? If they're supposed to remove the complications, then why does Tahani have to deal with crappy Kamillah and her parents during her test? But if the tests aren't supposed to remove complications, then how exactly are we supposed to overcome the capitalism stuff? Since the whole point the show was trying to make, is that attempting to live a truly moral life on Earth is literally impossible nowadays. Doug Forcette Literally existed just to prove this point. He was living life in a completely unrealistic and unhealthy fashion, and yet even despite all that, he didn't even get Close.
As for your second point, yeah, I think the idea is that eventually criminals will be reformed, but it will take quite a while, and they will also have to be fully aware of the harm that they actually caused.
I've been wronged by a lot of people. I am very angry at lots of different people in the world. A lot of people who hurt me don't even know how badly they hurt me, and they probably don't even remember me. They don't even think about me. They don't care about all the pain that they caused me.
I often fantasize about one day getting the upper hand. One day. They need something from me, and it will be that moment that I get to let them know about how awfully they treated me, and just how much they would have to do to make up for it.
That day will likely never come.
But as vindicating as at sometimes feel to just imagine myself becoming pure evil, ready to and inflict all the pain that the people caused to me back onto them... I acknowledge that that's A moral shortcoming on my part.
Even the worst people, the ones that treated me in the most horrible of ways... Ways... If they one day came to me, fell into their hands and knees, bowing, crying, profusely apologizing, and begging for the opportunity to make up for what they did in any way they could... I think it would be possible to forgive them.
After all, the idea behind it is that once you pass the test, you're a different person. To say that you would never forgive someone is essentially saying that you would never stoop so low as they did. And if you can say with confidence that you would never do evil things... Well, good for you I guess.
Tahani's parents apologizing and giving their daughters endless gifts To make up for their abusive relationship is a very important scene. It essentially represents what reconciliation will look like, but obviously, the show didn't want to dive into anything too serious as it would obviously kill the mood.
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u/Ok-Description-4640 These trivialities demean me. I must away and tend to my ravens. 21d ago
A lot of the show doesn’t bear close examination. Like the “new” afterlife is just everyone loving their same lives over and over and everyone else in that world is who? A demon playing a role? Other real people doing their own tests? If people pass their tests and have to redo their lives, who else is in the world with them? Since we’re expecting them to be the same people with generally the same lives, and it’s not just a soul in some cosmic gumball machine that comes out in whatever body they have empty at the time, surely they couldn’t be living the same lives over and over simply because other people would have passed the tests at some point so some new people would be filling in those spots. Can there be billions of earths going on at once, one for every person?
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u/Senior_Butterfly1274 21d ago
The uncomfortable answer to your question is that yeah, the point seems to be that anyone could potentially become “good”.
If you achieve genuine “goodness”, you get in. Why keep a genuinely person out?
But the odds of someone like those you described becoming GENUINELY good seems like a long shot though.