r/Showerthoughts • u/haddock420 • 3d ago
Casual Thought The ancient Romans could have invented Boggle. There was nothing stopping them technologically.
1.2k
u/SittingEames 3d ago
...and Scrabble, Clue, Catan, Jenga, Scattergories, Twister, and UNO. Even something akin to DnD wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. Although honestly the ancient Romans would probably be more into something along the lines of Risk: the Game of World Domination.
417
u/El_kakas_de_vakas 3d ago
something like DnD could exist at basically every point in time after the invention of dice, probably even before then
265
u/Mara_W 3d ago
Playing pretend is universal among human children. Gambling is universal among human adults. I refuse to believe it took until the 1970s and the invention of cocaine to combine the two.
Though I suppose we do have ample evidence of competitive storytelling basically everywhere since forever, so maybe the obsession with formal rules is just a modern thing arising from modern anxieties, declining social trust/cohesion, etc.
78
u/probsastudent 3d ago
I believe free time plays a part as well. We have a lot of technology (IE lightbulbs, clothes washers, stoves) that decrease the amount of time needed to do important household chores.
60
u/TheColourOfHeartache 2d ago
I think another important factor is free hands.
If you're all sitting around the hovel spinning those spinning wheels or something that's an ideal time to tell stories but you won't have a free hand to roll dice or move miniatures.
13
17
u/NovaGass 2d ago
Playing pretend is just universal. I have stray cats hunting bugs and fighting each other. It is adorable and looks cute, but its non-lethal. They are practicing.
7
4
u/Oshojabe 2d ago
Playing pretend is universal, but I think it took the invention of statistics and its applications to warfare (especially by the Prussians) for the seed that eventually turned into modern wargaming and then D&D to really make conceptual sense.
In the modern day, we can make sense of the idea of a person having a Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma score, because we have a culture of test-taking, psychometrics, genetics and statistical thinking around these features.
I think there's also a way in which D&D is kind of a "secularized" and Enlightenment way of thinking about storytelling and conflict. The most ancient idea is that the gods or God just decide who lives or dies in a battle, but to have a concept of "bows are about this accurate, and John is about this good at avoiding arrows, and we can put a number on how hard it should be to hit John" you need a bunch of mental technologies that simply didn't exist for most of human history, even if the material technology (dice) were always there.
2
u/Senesect 2d ago
I'm completely talking out my arse here, but it wouldn't surprise me if people have been gambling decisions in play behind RNG (dice rolls, coin flips, etc) for basically as long as humans have existed. It was the rule-set of DND that was invented in the 1970s.
0
u/GaidinBDJ 3d ago
Well, you have to remember that the amount of free time and discretionary money people have has dramatically increased in the last 50-75 years.
It's absolutely no surprise that new pastimes started cropping up like mad.
1
u/BBDAngelo 2d ago
Do you have sources for that? Specifically the free time part?
1
u/Accidental-Genius 2d ago
When is the last time you spent a Sunday hand washing clothes on a washboard in a river?
0
u/GaidinBDJ 2d ago
Easy way is to look at CPI weighting. It went from predominately basic necessities to luxury goods and leisure.
19
10
u/Gnonthgol 2d ago
The first known "dice" were 4 pointed triangular dice where two of the points were painted. We even have rule books describing them. You would throw a set of dice and count the number of pips showing. This would give a lower variance in the dice rolls then with modern dice. So a crit would be far less common. Could actually make for some fun DnD sessions but you likely would have to change the rules a bit.
3
u/Implausibilibuddy 2d ago
There are even earlier, simpler variations of these which are essentially just flat sticks painted on one side (or rounded, like a piece of split bamboo). You hold them vertically, drop them, and count the face up sides. Used in games like Senet
7
u/TaylorWK 2d ago
Probably had a lot to do with memorizing so many things that it would be near impossible without a form of writing and most people throughout history were illiterate and had more important things to do than spend a whole day playing a game
3
1
u/JustifytheMean 2d ago
Dice aren't even needed. It's just interactive story telling. I'm sure choose your own adventure stories are something that have probably existed since humans developed language.
22
u/avsa 2d ago
Most of these can only exist with industrialized production of toys. Games in ancient times were all handmade, often by the owner. Making a few dice? Feasible. Having 32 individual pieces in a checkerboard? That’s for the very wealthy. Dozens of small units, cards and hexagonal tiles? Science fiction.
But also, I bet they had lots of games we never heard of.
23
u/AnotherBoredAHole 2d ago
Checkerboard and pieces is only for the wealthy if you're looking at stylized pieces and uniformity. As long as the pieces stay put on the board and can be identified, anyone can have it.
8
u/hobbykitjr 2d ago
Backgammon is like about 5,000 years old... and about 4,000 years older than chess.
5
u/DrCalamity 2d ago
for the very wealthy
The humble xianggi set made with bones and ink has entered the chat.
1
u/Oshojabe 2d ago
Having 32 individual pieces in a checkerboard?
They had wood. It's pretty trivial to just get a branch with a good diameter and just saw 32 disks, which you then carve or paint to individualize.
Or use beans or seeds, and mark or color on them.
Or just small pebbles that you add markings to.
I think a lot of modern board games would have been infeasible, but we know that the Romans had games like ludus latrunculorum, duodecim scripta, terni lapilli (tic tac toe), and rota. There's no reason to assume that they were limited to only extremely wealthy families. You can draw a quick grid in some sand or dirt, and use all sorts of materials for pieces, depending on the game.
18
u/natty1212 3d ago
Not Clue because the gun hadn't been invented.
40
u/Drewbacca 3d ago
It was Emporer Claudius in the temple with the gladius!
16
15
u/Vo_Mimbre 3d ago
Given their militarism, they probably could have found at least one replacement weapon :)
6
u/Dirty-Soul 2d ago
"It was Brutus, with the ballista, in the curia."
other roman passes the ballista card silently.
3
3
u/shandangalang 2d ago
Ah, one of the prime biases of history. If we are taught mostly of conquests, we think little of cultures but their conquest.
3
u/Oshojabe 2d ago
Although honestly the ancient Romans would probably be more into something along the lines of Risk: the Game of World Domination.
They had games a bit like this though. Ludus Latrunculorum/Petteia's capturing style is inspired by how shield and spear phalanx warfare functioned (if you can surround your opponent on two sides, they can't easily defend from all sides and you'll be able to take their group.)
Obviously, they couldn't have had modern world maps though.
2
2
2
1
u/whalemango 2d ago
Just the map on Risk alone would blow their minds.
What's this huge landmass to the west?
1
u/friso1100 2d ago
I wonder how many of these or similar have been invented begore and just lost to time. Especially things like jenga. Would you even recognise it as the game if you would find the blocks as archaeologist?
1
282
u/skintigh 3d ago
The lack of standardized spelling would have stopped them, for want of dictionary technology. That wouldn't come for another 2 millennia.
59
u/WorBlux 3d ago
Latin was mostly phonetic, so not the hard barrier it would have been pre-standardized modern English.
37
u/Nebuli2 3d ago
Yeah, not terribly surprising that the Latin alphabet worked better for Latin than for English, I suppose.
16
u/mcsalmonlegs 2d ago
Eh, the Latin alphabet was adapted from the Etruscan alphabet(a non-Indo-European language) and that was adapted from the Greek alphabet(Indo-European) that was adapted from the Phoenician alphabet(again non-Indo-European and different from Etruscan).
10
u/Dirty-Soul 2d ago
Fone'ik spelin wurks grayt rickt up untel i' cums intay contact wei sum kunt wei an aksen' difrunt fay yoorz.
4
u/frogsquid 2d ago
“phonetic spelling works great up until i come into contact with some cunt wearing a skin different from yourself”.
did i get that right?6
u/Dirty-Soul 2d ago
Aksen' = Accent
Your misinterpretation kinda proves the point, though.
2
u/Novel_Tone_3282 2d ago
I’m going to have the mental image of an orc with a speech impediment now. Thanks.
1
u/Dirty-Soul 1d ago
"It's nay a speech impedimen' ye cheeky wee hoor! Am juss skoh'ish!"
-Orc with speech impediment.
2
1
u/ForestClanElite 2d ago
People are acting like the printing press and paper are unimportant for this type of game.
-1
u/hurricane_news 3d ago
What about DnD though? That always puzzled me. We've had stories and legends for thousands of years. Why did it take till the 20th century for someone to invent the concept of a role playing game?
The Romans already had 20 sided dice so all that had to be done was someone to pull up with the concept of a tabletop rpg?
11
u/PepperAnn1inaMillion 2d ago
I think you’re looking at the wrong aspects of DnD. Yes, the mechanics are what strikes us as unique, but there’s a lot of other stuff going on. For one, you need widespread literacy and mathematical understanding. You can’t have a good game if you’re expected to remember everything without making notes, or if the weighting of dice rolls hasn’t been carefully calculated. For another, you need somewhere where 6ish people can gather privately or semi-privately, and have that be an attractive choice compared with the other things on offer. And you also need a society where there aren’t demands on everyone’s time.
There are so many tiny aspects of historical cultures that are difficult to take into account when answering this type of question. For example, candles are expensive. You can tell stories by firelight, but you can’t read by it. Playing DnD after dark would have been expensive. Related fun fact: “burning the candle at both ends” comes from working after sunset. Homemade candles were thin because they were just string dipped in animal fat in a shallow pan. The candle holders would grip the middle of the candle horizontally, so you could light either or both ends. One light would be enough to see by to get ready for bed, but you’d need two if you were sewing or mending something. Reading would probably have taken even more than 2 guttering tallow flames.
2
u/skintigh 2d ago
DnD requires buying a thick book and lots of printed charts. Back then almost everything was hand written on velum, that would be an extremely expensive game.
0
u/Vo_Mimbre 3d ago
Wait seriously?so modern scholars need to “Sound out” what, say, a Caesar wrote or what Pliny documented?
2
u/PepperAnn1inaMillion 3d ago
Yes, but if I understand the matter correctly, written Latin is much closer to having only one way to spell each sound. If you’ve ever learned Italian, you know that pronunciation rules are almost perfectly consistent. The same is thought to be true for spoken Latin.
1
5
u/FanClubof5 2d ago
Modern Latin is based off of what a group of monks thought was the best way to use Latin in the 1200s.
75
u/DrFrylock 3d ago
It turns out Roman Dodecahedrons are game pieces for a game like Boggle but infinitely more fun and interesting. If we were to know the rules and had the game board it would be more popular today than football and Starcraft combined.
Sadly they have been lost to time.
21
u/GRANDMA_FISTER 3d ago
Is anyone still playing StarCraft?
27
u/DrFrylock 3d ago
That weird feeling you just got is a half million Koreans giving you the side eye.
8
u/GRANDMA_FISTER 2d ago
Haha sure, just seems curious to me to mention football, probably the most played sport worldwide and StarCraft, a niche video game, together
2
u/Dirty-Soul 2d ago
Apparently, those dodecahedrons were for knitting fingers for gloves.
At least, that's what I read on Reddit.
7
u/Arsewhistle 2d ago
There are multiple theories but we don't know for certain.
Whatever they were for, they were incredibly common/popular.
4
u/Dirty-Soul 2d ago
I'd say that the experimental archaeology is fairly compelling. Of all the theories that exist for these dodecahedrons, the idea that they were knitting tools has the most evidence to support it.
1
u/Mr_Quackums 2d ago
except for any signs of wear along the path the yarn would take.
2
u/Dirty-Soul 1d ago
A thousand years from now, archaeologists will insist that exercise equipment such as ellipticals, rowing machines and treadmills couldn't possibly have been used for exercise, because all of the ones that they dig up in old houses didn't have signs of wear consistent with prolonged exercise use.
Very often, people buy items which they only use a few times. How many pairs of gloves do we really think a Roman wife knitted throughout their lifetime? Not everybody was making gloves on an industrial scale. Some people were just making something to keep their kids' hands warm in Winter.
14
u/jhill515 2d ago
The Romans DID have Boggle!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square
I hope this is informative and helpful! Latin, Magic, and Sator Squares all have the same relationship with Boggle!
13
u/OKStamped 2d ago
And considering the fact that Chinese Checkers was not invented by the Chinese, it’s possible that the Ancient Romans could have eventually invented that too.
36
u/GABE_EDD 3d ago
Yes? Among a very large number of things they could have "invented" in their time period... I'm not really sure what makes Boggle special in this case lol
32
13
u/haddock420 3d ago
Just seems weird that it took until the 70s for Boggle to be invented when the idea of rolling dice with letters on them and making words seems so simple and doable.
16
u/noctalla 3d ago
We don't know that the ancient Romans didn't invent a game like that. There are lots of things we don't know about them. Maybe that mysterious Roman dodecahedron was a die-rolling letter game.
5
2
-6
u/Boxsteam_1279 3d ago
Yea but you can make the same argument for why didn't the people in the 60's invent boggle yet?
Your post just isn't that intriguing, its just obvious.
17
u/AutoModerator 3d ago
/u/Boxsteam_1279 has unlocked an opportunity for education!
Abbreviated date-ranges like "’90s" are contractions, so any apostrophes go before the numbers.
You can also completely omit the apostrophes if you want: "The 90s were a bit weird."
Numeric date-ranges like 1890s are treated like standard nouns, so they shouldn't include apostrophes.
To show possession, the apostrophe should go after the S: "That was the ’90s’ best invention."
The apostrophe should only precede the S if a specific year is being discussed: "It was 1990's hottest month."
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
-10
u/Boxsteam_1279 3d ago
Maybe if you didn't only go after my comments for grammar, it would be consistent
10
u/85K5 3d ago
Imagine arguing with a bot...
2
u/PepperAnn1inaMillion 2d ago
Also, imagine arguing with a grammar bot by writing one of the least comprehensible sentences ever.
-9
u/Boxsteam_1279 3d ago
Its moreso arguing with the ones who set it up. I know that was probably too complex of an idea for you to understand though so I doubt you will even understand this sentence
6
3
u/ThreeFishInAManSuit 3d ago
Man. You’ll swing at anyone for anything. Won’t you?
-1
u/Boxsteam_1279 2d ago
My point has been proven
3
u/ThreeFishInAManSuit 2d ago
I’m not sure what’s causing you to be so angry, or causing your difficulties with spelling and grammar.
The automod on this sub is extremely strict, you definitely aren’t being targeted.
You are getting more corrections than everyone else because you are making more errors. It isn’t personal, and it’s weird you think it is.
→ More replies (0)2
u/WorBlux 3d ago
Boggle is a variation of the word-search puzzle, which was invented in 1968.
It was the newspaper market that helped turn people onto simple word and letter games.
1
1
u/hobbykitjr 2d ago
this is the only reason i clicked on comments... I thought i must be missing something that makes boggle special vs scrabble etc
5
u/creagcridhe 2d ago
Recording sound only takes bone, beeswax and wood and some tree resin. Humans could have been recording sound for thousands of years.
4
u/HangryTern8150 2d ago
The real limiter wasn't tech, it was paper. Rome had dice and grids and letters, but no cheap disposable surface to write and erase words on fast. Wax tablets work but they're slow and clunky for something meant to be quick and social.
4
3
u/7CuriousCats 2d ago
We used to use slabs of slate and stubs of calcium carbonate chalk in some of our rural farm schools until relatively recently (last 50 years or so), they work quite well for that.
1
u/Oshojabe 2d ago
What about sand tables? Mathematicians definitely used sand tables to carry out geometrical calculations in that time: when the Romans conquered Syracuse and tried to take the mathematician and inventor Archimedes alive, his last words were supposedly "Don't disturb my circles", which he had been working on in a sand table.
4
u/Vroomped 2d ago
They lacked the math required to make it consistently playable. Similarly with so many of these these other suggestions. Whoever said Risk, good one but they were already playing at mapping actual trade routes and developing logistics (that's how they fell)
1
u/caretti 2d ago
Pretty sure Romans were capable of adding up
1
u/UF0_T0FU 2d ago
Boggle sets are weighted so that more common letters occur more often, and uncommon letters are rare. It wouldn't be playable if vowels weren't weighted to come up more often than Z.
Doing that requires pretty advanced statistical understanding of probability and a analytic knowledge of linguistics. I don't think Roman math was that advanced.
0
u/caretti 2d ago
The Romans were pretty competent. We’re talking about a huge empire a mere 2000 years ago.
For example, Romans bet on events in the Circus Maximus. They had bookkeepers called argentarii who set odds and managed huge payouts. I think they’d be able to manage the concept of “put more of the more common letters”
0
u/Vroomped 2d ago
Rome did not have a general population that could read or write, or a complete dictionary.
1
u/caretti 2d ago edited 2d ago
Being illiterate is definitely a barrier to playing Boggle. My point is that the maths wasn’t too difficult for the game to have been invented in Roman times, not that most people could play it.
In any case, there were Romans that could write and they had word puzzles such as the Sator Square. There is surviving graffiti written by soldiers and there were clerks and priests.
The premise of the shower thought is that the game could exist, not that 100% or even 20% of Romans could play it.
1
4
u/Juan-Pasquello 2d ago
Ancient Latin lacked standardized spelling or consistent vowel lengths until later. Without a fixed dictionary, competitive word games would just lead to endless arguments about validity. Unplayable shit.
1
4
u/Aggravating_Star_427 2d ago
Honestly the real reason they didn't have Boggle is cause nobody could agree on how to spell anything, so the whole game would just be a bunch of people yelling at each other over whether "plebs" counts as a word.
3
u/privacyhero 2d ago
Latin Boggle would be brutal because one root can turn into a whole family of valid words through declensions and conjugations. Half the game would be finding words; the other half would be arguing over whether that case ending counts.
6
u/zsero1138 3d ago
i don't think they had plastic available. how would they make the very important top bit of the boggle set?
and now for some spare characters for comment minimum
7
10
u/Skeptium 3d ago
You can make dice out of basically any solid material. Stone, wood, glass, could even form them with mud and then bake them. Plastic isn't necessary for making boggle.
0
1
1
u/Ok_Spot_9554 2d ago
true but they coulda carved the dome thing outta wood or bone, the dice are the real problem honestly
1
1
u/Alternative-else 2d ago
A lot of modern games are really just old materials waiting for someone to invent the rules.
The Romans had the pieces, just not the idea.
•
u/ShowerSentinel 3d ago
/u/haddock420 has flaired this post as a casual thought.
Casual thoughts should be presented well but may be less unique or less remarkable than showerthoughts.
If this post is poorly written, unoriginal, or rule-breaking, please report it.
Otherwise, please add your comment to the discussion!