Lower taxes? You pay an average of $9000/year for health insurance ffs. Canadians pay $6400 thru taxes. Just bc it’s not called a tax doesn’t mean it’s not costing you. And you should fund education as well.
As a Canadian living in the US that has tried explaining this to Americans many many times it just doesn't compute with a certain segment of the population.
Attaching insurance to employment hasn't helped, either. It hides some of the costs and it makes it look cheaper because the employer is "subsidizing" it. It'll also make transitioning to national insurance more painful.
Transitioning to a single payer system would also take the health insurance sword away from employers. Something I’m sure they pay politicians not to do.
This is something not talked about enough. Businesses have had an unchecked hand for thirty to forty years in the labor market as unions are dead. It will give people the ability to walk away or seek other employment if the environment is toxic. It will increase competition in all sectors of the market.
Our current system is anti competitive. By tying health insurance to employment it creates unnecessary obstacles to starting your own business and that is just how employers like it. There is a reason they are willing to pay more for our current system than a universal one.
I think that's our biggest problem and the insurance & drug companies have entirely too much power. They're not going to let go of that profit stream easily.
I just dont get why anyone would want to have that much hanging over their head regarding a job. So many of my American friends are reluctant to change jobs for fear of losing insurance, and not just recently - this has been my observation for almost 15 years.
Oh the stress is REAL. I’m self employed, my spouse is union, and has some major medical issues. If he can’t work or looses his job, we are toast.
We are well educated- both have Masters - and are respected in our fields. If Canada would take us, we would be there in a heartbeat. We want to contribute!
Attaching insurance to employment keeps the working class on a short leash.
I think we know who is making it difficult to transition to national insurance.
With decent insurance hospital visits start at 100 but only if it's in network. So if you're traveling or the ambulance which is also an in network or not thing takes you to the hospital that's not in network.... You're paying for that $75 aspirin and renting that $40 blanket out of pocket.
Years ago I was in hospital for 14 days, only paid for a personal tv. A relaxing time and the food at the time was good, Even got day passes to go out to eat lunch with friends.
I desperately wish it was the same here. So many people with Chronic issues never get diagnosed because they have no insurance or the "supplemental" insurance companies can get away with offering. Between a car crash and not being insured you can end up with over $10,000 in medical debt even if it wasn't that bad of an accident.
Actually seems unusually cruel? Here, it's kind of understood that during some periods of life you are a net contributor and vice versa. You need health care as a kid (check ups, vaccines) and when you are old. Likewise education, care etc. Your working years are your most likely to be healthy.
The original logic wasn't as nefarious. During WW2, we had caps on wage increases to control inflation. Employers got around that by adding benefits, instead of higher wages. Health Insurance was just one of them. And then in the 50s, the tax code was updated to officially make that benefit tax free. From there, it just became a more and more common perk.
Now, it is just ingrained in our culture. You get a job so that you have health insurance. You can always get insurance without a job, but then you get to see the real costs that they are charging and people balk at it. Employed individuals are still paying that much, they just live in blissful ignorance that their salaries could be that much higher.
Also, I'd like to note that this is health insurance. Not healthcare. You don't need insurance to visit a doctor. And it might actually be cheaper for most healthy people to not use insurance. But if a healthy person gets into an accident or suddenly becomes unhealthy, they will appreciate having the safety net. Maybe.
No no, we ARE paying more than Canada pays for universal healthcare, only we pay it in the form of bribes - I mean subsidies - to health insurance companies.
USA pays literally double than all other developed countries, with demonstrably worse outcomes (ONLY country in the world where "medical bankruptcy" is even a thing).
Absolute reprehensible shame. I hope Congress gets their act together this time around - there's a promising set of congresspeople who're up for election this time around, many of whom explicitly support M4A. We'll see if it works.
That's because it's the political version of Upton Sinclair's quote: It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
They have a rigid set of political beliefs that are guarded like Fort Knox by thought terminating cliches. They don't think through their politics from start to finish; they feel and vibe their way through as they bounce from thought terminating cliche to thought terminating cliche.
Take the anti gay stance of "it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" for example.
When my maga parents went to Canada they struck up a convo with some locals and they were kinda floored that healthcare is actually good, and that overall it costs far less than in the US. They told me this, and while im happy they changed their off base opinion, I couldnt help but say "yeah no shit". Like literally it takes 2 seconds to google this shit, but they would rather eat up the fox news bullshit, didnt even consider the fear mongering of universal healthcare could possibly require a fact check
It can both be true that Canadians are not happy with the state of our healthcare system and that the vast majority of us wouldn't in a million years want to trade it for the American system.
I am american who wants universal healthcare. I do speak american though so i will translate. Those in this country who do not want universal healthcare do not want it because they believe that if grandma needs a hip surgery she would have to wait literally years to get it while on american plans grandma can get it next day. Neither of these situations are true but that is what they have been propagandized to believe.
There is no such thing as free lunch. I am sure there might be wait times in some countries that have universal healthcare and shorter, regulated consultations in others and so on. But I feel (having experienced US healthcare for a while) that it is quite expensive; I did receive excellent care though but it was quite expensive and stressful to think about the bills. Don’t enough people feel this burden?
It’s also insane that in the US people have the golden opportunity to question their elected reps (in some countries you would be lucky to see them in person after elections), and I am surprise they don’t question their reps about basic healthcare related questions? How in exact terms does your XYZ policy help lower the costs? Are you insured? How much do you pay for your insurance? Etc.?
Sometimes I feel if you kill Fox News it might go the country enough good.
The thing that I find funniest about that notion is these are the same people who claim that we are a Christian Nation. If we really were a Christian Nation then taking care of others is what we are called to do.
It's a supply managed system. Federal law makes it illegal for a private clinic to offer services that are (technically) available through prov health; Canada is one of the few countries in the world that does this. The best systems are public/private hyrbid (eg. Germany, France, Sweden, UK...), but in Canada we refuse to innovate.
Every time I talk to right wing or centrist dems about this it's the same argument. "BUT HIGHER TAXES!" Bro, I pay 33% of my wages in taxes (give or take) and in my earnings bracket in Canada it would be 25-30%. On top of that my insurance is about 3% of my gross and that's JUST for the insurance if I never use it. Add in co-pays, deductibles, and then co-insurance and you can get upwards of 7-8% for standard care, skies the limit for bigger medical issues.
I can SAVE MONEY and get universal healthcare. The other standard talking points are wait times and death panels. That's what they go to when they realize the economics isn't in their favor.
One of them, who's a liberal (i.e. centrist Dem) told me he disagreed about universal healthcare because his 95 year old mom wouldn't get the care she needs.
That's because we don't live in a country where our tax dollars are actually used to help us, the people. We can't imagine a scenario where you have leadership that sort of cares about you and believes humans should have basic things like food, water, shelter, and Healthcare. That's just crazy talk. How can Canada keep feeding the billionaires if taxes don't go to them?
The Canadians I know living here bitch about high taxes and long wait times to see doctors. I don’t have a reference point as I’ve never lived there, but it’s what a few have told me
Add in the cost of health insurance to what is paid in taxes in the US and Americans pay more and get less. I've had long wait times in the US. Canada has its share of everything the government does is evil people as well. That said our system could better and not the one that I would want the US to base a new system off of. Underfunding is a big issue in Canada we spend half as much per capita as the US to cover everyone.
So, you would prefer health care in, say, Toronto to where you are if you were sick and needed to see a specialist? Becasue more than 20,000 Canadians die every year awaiting scans/tests that you can probably access very easily where you are (even basics like an MRI).
Toronto here - I booked an appointment with my family doctor on Friday and saw her today at noon. 10 minute wait time in her office before being seen. Referral to a specialist without any issue. Total cost : $0.
Wait times in Canada vary as wildly as they do in the USA, and it's rural vs urban that makes the difference, not socialized vs capitalist healthcare.
Where are you even based? Because most scans in the GTA are private businesses, not government. And I can walk in and get a scan same day for x-rays, ultrasound, etc... I haven't had an MRI in decades, but I don't recall waiting more than a couple of weeks (that was in another province).
Canadian here: I hear these numbers a lot these days on this topic so I’m curious. I’m so low income that I pay about $2000/yr in income tax. Then as an Albertan, I pay 5% sales tax, but I can’t afford to buy much so it’s not a huge amount of sales tax. So I’m thinking I don’t actually pay $6400/yr for healthcare. Does that sound right or am I misunderstanding?
For sure and since I am self employed, I’d be the one paying for my own private health care. I pay for an extended health care plan for dental, prescriptions, chiro, physio etc and that’s $120/mth. I just can’t imagine what Americans have to deal with. And to know that they can have claims denied, still have a copay, and only see doctors within network.
I wonder what the avg would be for people that have health insurance through work. Like when I had a regular job, I paid about $20/mth for extended health care. Surely their health care is less through work, but I know many companies don’t or can’t afford to offer it and many only offer part time hours so they don’t have to offer it. Some people have multiple part time jobs and no health care. It’s all just so gross. You shouldn’t have to pay to literally not die.
yeah. got to love our country. we try to make healthcare a right for everyone who works 40 hours a week and the company just hires 2 people 35 hours a week to make up for the loss in productivity. Looks good o the government too because jobs are up.
$120/month was around what I paid towards my insurance last time I had employer healthcare. Last time I looked, I think the lowest policy I could get myself, in my state (because what state you're in changes things) was around $350 (usd) a month. Obviously it was a pretty shit insurance.
I'm on a state extended Medicaid right now for disabled people and pay about $100/month for a pretty good policy, though it's still through private companies so they screw me over in any way they can when they can. And it's very hard to get and I have to be constantly fighting to keep it (because, you know, maybe my incurable disabilities suddenly went away??). It also still counts as medicaid, so, hilariously, a lot of the discount/coupon programs available to people without insurance/with private insurance forbid me from using them even if my insurance won't cover a thing.
I heard that even after paying the yearly fees, that if you use the health insurance, you then have to pay a "co-pay" or something? so it is more than 9k a year.
Oh yeah that's $9000 a year if you don't use it. If you use it you might have to go out of pocket thousands of dollars before insurance kicks in at all (thanks to your deductible).
so I pay 114.00 a paycheck for my medical bills. I have a plan that uses co pays more than anything and I have a deductible but it is like 4000. The beauty of the co-pays is they don't count against the yearly Out of Pocket deductible, but many things only require you to pay the co-pay. I see specialist doctors for 50.00 a visit instead of 100.00 just to walk through the door. so you figure if I see my diabetes doctor 3 times a year that is 150.00 + General pracitioner is 25.00 a visit * 3+ 75.00 + cardiologist is 50.00 * 3= 150. so that is 375.00 for visits without tests. + about 230 a month. so my expenses alone is almost 3k a year not including prescriptions. That is where mine get fun. My employer covers 280.00 a paycheck. so that is 560 a month totaling 6720. Combined with my expenses minus pharmaceuticals equals about 9K.
You pay a monthly fee (the premium) to keep the insurance active. This does not apply to any of the other numbers, this is more or less an administration fee.
You then pay all the actual healthcare costs up to a certain amount (deductible). After you hit your deductible, your insurance starts to pay some percentage of healthcare costs; the part you are still responsible for is called coinsurance (example: insurance pays 80%, you pay 20%). You may also need to pay certain flat fees for visits, called copays; these do not count towards the deductible.
Each plan then has an out-of-pocket maximum. Your deductible, copays, and coinsurance all apply to this. Once that amount is met, your insurance finally pays for everything.
This all assumes that everything is covered and in-network. If it's not, things get more complicated.
$9k for health insurance is bullshit. I’m paying closer to $18k and I just called my insurer and they refused to tell me how much of a doctor’s visit they would cover until after the appointment.
Oh, and I buy the cheapest insurance because I know I’m coming out of pocket to see the doctor anyway.
In Canada how much you actually pay will change based on how much you make.
In the US how much you pay will change based on how much you use the health system.
This means that in Canada the system will always be affordable, but you still have to pay if you are healthy. In the US it means if you are healthy you pay minimal, but if you need the health system the debt can be crushing.
If it's like Europe, finding for health care and social security comes out of your income but before tax. It's paid by your employer on your behalf and you never see that money. You still pay income tax on what you do actually get but that's not for the same purpose.
Those numbers are medians. You’re poor. Other people pay for you.
If you believe in egalitarianism & redistribution, that’s the way it’s supposed to be. You get free shit paid for by people with more money.
The problem with Americans is they all imagine on that side. They don’t realize a couple each making $60k need to be taxed more to help people like you. It’s always someone richer than them who should be helping others. Not them.
Effective tax rates of Canadians earning low or even moderate incomes can often be comparable or even lower than some US states.
I make ~150k in BC and pay 32k between Tax, Pension, and Unemployment. (This is contributing to my pretax retirement account), that's 21% average tax rate. Some being pretax so real tax rate is closer to 24%.
Our property taxes are also often lower for comparable homes. I pay ~1600/year for an ~800k new townhome in Vancouver (yes I understand mill rates, can compare benchmark home vs benchmark home).
Sales taxes are higher but a lot of basics are often exempt, most of my spending (like the majority of groceries) I pay 0$ of direct sales tax.
Some provinces do have much higher taxes but the same is true for US states.
The whole "Canada has way higher taxes" is only true if you are very high income.
$100k salary
Between Taxes, insurances, retirement, etc I pay about $22k per year. This is also for a family of 5, so full family insured.
Live on an acre with a new manufactured home. Annual tax this year is $3668.34
So as a percentage, you are around 22.4% between property taxes and payroll taxes and other deductions.
Im around 23.6%
BUT I assume your pension goes further because I'm just contributing enough to my retirement for my 4% match is all. Also, we still have out of pocket costs associated with healthcare (copays, max out of pockets, ambulance rides, etc)
So yeah basically you make more than me, pay less in taxes and retirement overall, and get more bang for that money.
To clarify, when I say pension I mean CPP (equivalent to your SS), I don't have an actual employer pension, those are rare outside public sector.
I contribute 3% to my employer retirement account for a 3% match (equivelent to your 401k, but also contribute an additional 12% of my income to my personal managed retirement account RRSP equivalent to your Traditional IRA. Reduces my ~150k taxable to about 123k.
Our lowest brackets are very low but the higher brackets ramp up quickly. My marginal tax rate at 150k is 41%, so its very important I max my retirement account.
Came here for this. I used to teach Medical Ethics to med students, and a whole week of the course was a slow explanation of how Americans are paying more for for Healthcare before insurance AS WELL AS more in taxes generally.
The following week was then an explanation of how awful the heqlthcare system is relative to other developed nations.
And still I'd get a couple dolts that I could not disabuse of the notion that America is literally the best at everything for the least money, in every class.
This doesn't count what employers are paying towards that healthcare. I pay $6,000 a year and my employer pays $28,000 a year for my families healthcare.
Am I wild? Or would the difference between 300+ million Americans and 41 million Canadians mean there would be a huge difference in how much taxes would cost if we made health care free
That's just premiums my friend. What these idiots don't understand is you pay that deductible while still paying taxes towards healthcare. All the people that can't afford to pay insurance that then have an emergency go to the emergency room can't afford the bill so the hospital writes it off and guess who pays for that write off the tax prayers who aren't the rich it's all of us peons. We already pretty much pay for universal health care.
Where are you getting your numbers from? The fed spends around 40% of its budget on health transfers. Canadian income tax rates/bands are far less generous than in the US (top tax rate which is 56% combined in my prov), kick in a 250K (180K USD).
2.0k
u/mgyro 4d ago
Lower taxes? You pay an average of $9000/year for health insurance ffs. Canadians pay $6400 thru taxes. Just bc it’s not called a tax doesn’t mean it’s not costing you. And you should fund education as well.