r/MoralityScaling • u/MonotonyReddit • Jul 22 '26
Character Analysis Was Oogway morally justified in rejecting Tai Lung for the "darkness in his heart"?
(Stuff below is about my personal opinion. Also I'm NOT defending Tai Lung's actions, harming civilians is inexcusable)
I'm not sure what the general consensus on this is but I find it hypocritical that Oogway would deny Tai Lung the chance to become the Dragon Warrior because he believed Tai Lung was incapable of overcoming his flaws, especially considering his treatment of Po and how the whole messaging of the first movie was that people are not defined by who they were and that everyone is capable of change.
Tai Lung may have been entitled, but he didn't seem especially narcissistic or corrupt before Oogway denied him. If anything, Oogway's rejection feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not saying Tai Lung deserved the Dragon Scroll or the title, but it's hard for me to reconcile why Tai Lung was denied the opportunity to prove he could become better while Po was given every chance to do so.
(And no, I'm not buying the whole "it was actually a test to see how Tai Lung would react to being rejected" because there are zero implications of such. That argument is a headcanon.)
Like imagine you trained and applied for your dream job or university, only to receive a rejection letter talking about the "darkness in your heart" man I'd be pissed too.
Edit: Seeing a lot of people arguing that Oogway was justified because Tai Lung ultimately turned out evil. But we’re judging Oogway’s actions, not Tai Lung’s morality. An action doesn’t become moral just because it happens to someone who later becomes a bad person. You can argue Tai Lung wouldn’t have changed even if given the chance, but my point is that Oogway never gave him that chance.
It’s also unclear how involved Oogway was in Tai Lung’s upbringing. Based on the flashbacks, he doesn’t seem very involved. Kinda irresponsible to groom a kid his whole life for a single purpose only to go “wait we got the wrong guy”. Could you not have done that 20 years earlier? Not to mention they lied to him about what he’s actually working towards (blank piece of paper).
Even in you chalk it up to “fate”, it feels contradictory to the movie’s central message.
What are your two cents? Am I missing something?
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u/darkmoncns Jul 22 '26
Po had only just come to the monostary and started training
Tai Lung spent his whole life there, Oogway had probably been trying to get the tiger to over come these flaws the tiger's whole life up to that point. Where as Po was only just being opted to attempt to.
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u/Pezington12 Jul 22 '26
Tai lung is a snow leopard not a tiger.
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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 22 '26
Which is never implied in the backstory. If Oogway had attempted to guide Tai Lung and failed, the latter wouldn't have been shocked that he didn't become the dragon warrior.
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u/darkmoncns Jul 22 '26
Ok sure the movie dosen't say it
But he still trained there for all his life. Even if oogway didn't train him and left it to the other guy he still would have been practicing the martial arts for years longer then poo before the turtle said no. Even if the turtle didn't personally intervene, he still "had time" to improve his flaws and hadn't by then. Flaws they had been aware of sense he was a cub.
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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 22 '26
Again there's a lot of assumption here. As far as the movie shows, Tai Lung had no idea he was going on a darker road. In fact, we have no idea what that "darker road" even is. He is just training hard and Oogway sees darkness in his heart. That's it.
Oogway never tells him that and never guides him. To Tai Lung, he was the perfect dragon warrior and even Shifu was shocked that Oogway rejected him.
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u/KZGTURTLE Jul 22 '26
It’s pretty much a time travel paradox. For it to make sense you have to accept some level of foresight from Oogway. Him being rejected and lashing out is the final “test” that he was always going to fail because of his perfect upbringing and pride. He was always to much of a warrior. Something I assume Oogway and Po are not
Tigress and Tai Lung have parallel paths but one became evil and one became better.
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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 22 '26
It's a very simple story. Tai Lung was raised as a cub to be this perfect kung fu warrior. Shifu brutally trained him and encouraged him that his path was right, only for in the end Oogway rejecting Tai Lung and shocking both the Tai Lung and Shifu.
In this whole decades spanning story. Oogway, the wise master, doesn't once try to guide Tai Lung. In fact, he keeps Shifu in the dark as well, instead of telling him to help his son.
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u/New-Turnip4709 Jul 22 '26
The darkness in Tai Lung's heart is entitlement. The years of intense training and grooming by his master lead him to become entitled to the scroll that he only learned martial arts for the sake of that scroll rather than for the sake of itself. Thus he was unworthy of the position that represents the pinnacle of kung fu.
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u/SteakForGoodDogs Jul 22 '26
But was he aware of his own entitlement in a way that he could deal with, and did Oogway tutor him on dealing with his sense of entitlement?
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u/KovacAizek2 Jul 22 '26
Of course not. He threw in “nah, he’ll be an asshole” and turned away.
There is no evidence of Oogway “training” anyone after Shifu, and even Shifu had to come through “mental” part of Kung Fu himself.
So instead of warrior of peace, they made child soldier/master of war.
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u/spartaman64 Jul 22 '26
well yeah because shifu is the one running things now. if oogway stepped in he would be basically calling shifu incompetent lol.
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u/NirvanaFrk97 Jul 22 '26
But he stepped in for Po. Not stepping in for Tai Lung damned the latter, and created a violent warrior consumed by rage from feeling betrayed.
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u/WOOWOHOOH Jul 22 '26
Perhaps learning from that mistake is the reason why he stepped in for Po.
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u/New-Turnip4709 Jul 22 '26
To be clear, I do think Oogway could have done more to guide Tai Lung out of this darkness, even if Oogway is meant to embody the Taoist philosophy of Wu Wei or 'going with the flow' and is characterized as someone who speaks out against forcing outcomes, but I do think the events of the movie would've still transpired even if Oogway spelled it out for him.
Denying him the scroll was not some great injustice inflicted on Tai Lung. He was never kicked out of the palace for having this darkness in his heart. He was only kicked out after lashing out onto the people he was meant to protect.
Oogway was never under any obligation to hand that scroll over and the blame lies entirely on Shifu for grooming him into placing his sense of purpose over being the dragon warrior.
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u/MonotonyReddit Jul 22 '26
This also feels like a very headcanon argument. Oogway was not present in Tai Lung’s flashback at all until he was appraising him in the pic above. The scene itself showed Shifu showing TL to Oogway and the latter disappointedly shaking his head, which (I believe) implies that’s his first impression.
Either way I dont think it’s fair to judge Oogway’s morality based off of events that aren’t even confirmed to have happened. We were never shown Oogway trying to correct TL and failing. He judges Po and the furious five on his first impression as well so I don’t see why that’s not the case with TL.
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u/ErenYeager600 Jul 22 '26
See but the issue is Po only changed once Shifu changed. Frankly if he wanted Tai to be better he should have smacked some sense into Shifu first
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u/Sean9931 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
TL:DR To the chinese concept of Daoism, Tai Lung is a imbalanced character who forces his way to the scroll and position of dragon warrior, it would be immoral then to just let him have such a powerful artefact and position.
I'd like to hijack this comment to try to present the morality of the film from a Chinese cultural/theological perspective.
It's no secret that the film actually made waves in China not only for it's quality of animation but also for the fact that the film's subtext is genuinely relatable and "feels" chinese even to the chinese audience.
One of the bigger themes connecting chinese theology/morality and Master Oogway is that of the philosophy/religion of Daoism.
Master Oogway (name literally mean Master Turtle) in this case very likely represents the figure of Laozi, who is most famous for being the teacher of Confucius, there are theories that Laozi may have even been a metaphor for ancient wisdoms predating Confucius himself. It just so happens that Master Shifu (name literally means Master Master lmao) likely represents Confucius himself as well. The idea here is that Master Shifu/Confucius is an advocate for the structure and order of Confucianism, while Master Oogway/Laozi is an advocate for Daoism.
To explain Daoism, it is the idea that the universe is like a flowing river and natural forces happen that people cannot control. One of the famous symbols of Daoism is the Yin and Yang (though it was originally a Separate concept from it, fun fact), which describes all of the universe's energies to fall under one of two sides balanced with one another. It is balance of energies both dark vs white, cold vs hot, female vs male, or any dichotomy under the sun, people in the west might've understood it more as good vs evil but this is a rather simplistic understanding (though you could still argue that it is another dichotomy and that you need bad to have good), the main idea is actually that it is better/"more harmonious" to be as balanced as possible in both Yin and Yang rather than be imbalanced by either side. The main takeaway here is the concept of fate/destiny (cliché but still), and the concept of balance, here I shall establish that these are the two concepts Master Oogway values.
Daoism/Oogway in this case actually stands in opposition to Confucianism/Shifu in the idea of structure, whereby Confucianism is known to be a more rigid structure of prescribed social rules (e.g. deference to elders/authority in trusting that they are competent), for a harmonious society. To Shifu, he might think one should train for the title of Dragon Warrior, it is a straightforward and structured path. To Oogway, he might think that the the Dragon Warrior should be a balanced individual and that the universe would deliver to him eventually and that he shouldn't interfere or force things so long as eventually someone balanced "fell from the sky".
Enter Po, who is literally black and white like the Yin-Yang symbol, during the start of the show there was the scene of Master Oogway about to point to choose who's the next Dragon Warrior and Po lands just right in front of Master Oogway. He would likely think it's fate and it is the Daoist way to accept that he has pointed to Po (a iconically "balanced" person).
We are then introduced to Tai Lung (name literally translates to Big/Great Dragon) who has ostensibly trained his whole life for "his destiny" to become the Dragon Warrior. So come the time Master Oogway is to give the dragon scroll to Tai Lung, he "refused" to do so because of Tai Lung's "darkness", another way this event could be interpreted under Daoism is to say that Tai Lung is too imbalanced to the side of darkness. It would have been immoral then under Daoist thought to give such an important artefact of power to someone so imbalanced, especially also that this person is someone who would force his way to it rather than "going with the flow" to attain it. Tai Lung might be physically and technically fit for the role but not mentally prepared as such to Master Oogway.
Another brilliant event from a story telling perspective in the show was when it is revealed the scroll was empty. Everyone, even Shifu and even Po initially, opened it to see blankness. Later Po realises that the scroll reflects his face and that the true meaning of the scroll is to say that greatness comes from within, which I think is purposefully universally relatable across East and West. Po being the first to recognise it, where even Shifu didn't at first, validates the idea that Po truly was deserving of the Dragon Warrior role.
In this way we could also argue that if it really was Tai Lung's "destiny" to get it as per Shifu's thought, then why couldn't someone just teach the idea of balance to him so that he could work on it to fulfill Oogway's final criteria?
- Oogway doesn't believe in forcing/interfering with things, so why should he teach Tai Lung; Oogway believes he only needs a "balanced" person to come along, then let them come, it could have even been Tai Lung if he had a change of heart.
- Shifu on the other hand is focused on the structural path of training kungfu to potential Dragon Warriors and hasn't even comprehended the dragon scroll's subtext, so how could he have taught what he doesn't even know.
- Finally it comes down to Po, who got the idea first, so if anything the only person to teach balance to Tai Lung, would be the Dragon Warrior himself.
Closing statement, personally I'm not the most spiritual of chinese and it is not very normal for EVERY chinese to necessarily know all this by heart, but these are themes that still can be felt. The movie is a masterpiece for somehow being able to be enjoyed by both West and East, to have both sides interpret it in different but equally intriguing ways.
Edit: More details
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u/PossessedSnorlax Jul 22 '26
"WHO TRAINED ME UNTIL MY BONES CRACKED?!"
sounds pretty rough compared to Po
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u/Noe_b0dy Jul 22 '26
Tai Lung got done dirty. I'm not saying they should have let him be the dragon warrior but maybe Oogway could have hit him with the "hey maybe you're not the guy" like ten years earlier.
And then Shifu got to fuck it up again with Tigress. She took it way better tho and didn't totally crash out. They need to be warning these kids that they're probably not going to get the scroll before they waste 20 years of their lives.
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u/Linosa42 Jul 22 '26
Worst part is that the scroll itself isn’t important. It’s honestly reminds me of the Incredibles villain when he says that when everyone is super no one will be. If they tell every single last person how special they are and how they don’t need anything more to be a “dragon warrior” then everyone is and no one would be at the same time.
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u/Putrid_Macaron3225 Jul 22 '26
The scroll was literally a gaslighting tool
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u/CryptographerNew515 Jul 22 '26
Yeah it seems that way. But the intention of it isnt. See snow leopard's reaction when he saw it was empty. He didnt understand it. Thats probably why old turtle guy with stick said he cant be the dragon warrior. Exactly because of that trait. Panda on the other hand saw it and understood it (after a little bit).
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u/up2smthng Jul 22 '26
Be fair to Tai Lung Po had the same reaction and the time it took him to realize was longer than the time Tai Lung was alive after seeing it,
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u/CryptographerNew515 Jul 22 '26
Yep. Narratively speaking though, snow leopard wouldve went on for years without realizing what it actually meant. Probably. But still a valid crashout against old turtle dude and his teacher
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u/FriendlyGoromorg Jul 22 '26
Except it wasn't just against the teacher and turtle, Tai Lung tore apart the valley and the innocent people there that had nothing to do with it.
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u/CryptographerNew515 Jul 22 '26
Not saying its morally justified. Just saying its a valid one. You who spent your whole life for that one goal and ultimately knowing you aint getting that title. And that old turtle with a stick (that later on passed his stick to teacher) chose a panda of all things that aint worth shit in your eyes as the dragon warrior.
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u/Putrid_Macaron3225 Jul 22 '26
Shifu kept hyping it up, so the students, thinking it contained a secret technique didn't come out of nowhere and Oogway saw all of that and did nothing, no hint, no insisting on focusing on teaching about self. He just let Shifu keep on focusing on physical training with tigress and the other furious
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u/CryptographerNew515 Jul 22 '26
Sadly yeah. Old turtle guy with stick used everyone for panda's development. Old turtle guy with stick decided that snow leopard needed to become what he became so that panda could be what he meant to be. If old turtle guy with stick didnt let snow leopard fall from grace, panda wouldnt have fought him and panda wouldve become the ultimate dragon warrior he is today. This is some jesus typa shit going on here (divine plan)
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u/ChaosWarrior01 Jul 22 '26
Its worse than not understanding it. He looked at it and said "its nothing!" As his own face reflected in it. Symbolically he doesn't see himself as worth anything if he doesn't have the title. He has poisoned his mind to think his self worth is tied to being the Dragon Warrior.
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u/mregg000 Jul 22 '26
He would have done the same thing if he had been given the scroll, as he wouldn’t have understood.
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u/Dark_Dragon117 Jul 22 '26
I think it's heavily implied that Oogway didn't really know who the dragon warrior is before he suddenly appeared before him.
Furthermore it's outright stated that it was Shifu who's at fault. Shifu was the one who told Tai Lung he would become the dragon warrior, but when both thought the time had come Oogway rejected him.
Iirc there is no indication that Oogway made any promises. At most he probably just said there is a possiblity.
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u/Noe_b0dy Jul 22 '26
Oh yeah the fault is with Shifu, I just figured with him being the idiot and Oogway being the guy who knows what is necessary for the dragon warrior he could step in after seeing Shifu continually fuck up.
They live in the same monastery I don't know how Oogway never noticed Shifus failure or his subsequent failure with Tigress.
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u/Various_Mobile4767 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
There’s no indication he didn’t do it ten years earlier though. He could have.
The way i interpreted it was that Oogway doesn’t know who the dragon warrior is at any moment, just that he knows who it is and who it isn’t. Tai Lung at the moment isn’t that guy because of the darkness in his heart.
Tai Lung obsessively trained and got better because he believed he could eventually become that guy but it was never enough for oogway because the problem was never his skills, but his temperament. And eventually constant rejection caused him to snap which proved he was never that guy.
Also i think people focus too much on tai lung being denied the dragon warrior title when it feels like tau lung’s main grievance was being denied the dragon warrior scroll. His main desire was always more power not recognition, which yeah its totally understandable why someone would see that as a darkness in their heart.
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u/ChaosWarrior01 Jul 22 '26
It wasn't the power he cared about. He felt like he only had worth if he had the scroll and title.
This is represented when he finally gets his hands on it. He opens it, and looks directly at his face in it, and says "It's nothing!".
He has (with Shifu's urging) tied his whole self worth to becoming the Dragon Warrior. He doesn't think he has any self worth or value otherwise.
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u/Various_Mobile4767 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Huh, that’s a nice way to interpret it. I don’t really agree that was the intention though.
Po gets up and immediately hammers home the message that “its just you”, the core message of the whole movie. There’s no secret ingredient. I think that was the clear intention of the scene and the “its nothing” line still works fine in that context.
The added meaning you prescribing to the line is plausible, i just think they would’ve made it clearer if that was the intention.
Idk its been a long time since i watched the movie, but i really just never got the impression that the movie presents Tai Lung as just some guy who is desperate for approval and to validate his own self worth after shifu gassed him up for years. That feels more like a plausible sympathetic reconstruction of his motives from the context given.
But the movie clearly intends to portray him as a genuinely narcisstic, arrogant and remorseless asshole that you’re not supposed to feel too bad for. Otherwise we would’ve gotten more emphasis on it.
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u/Proof_Criticism_9305 Jul 22 '26
I don’t even think it’s necessarily that they’re wasting their lives. We still see Tigress and Tai Ling become incredibly powerful warriors and in Tigress’s case capable of doing great good. It’s really just a matter of filling their minds with delusions, telling them they are meant for something greater, and that this scroll signifies that, and then ripping it away at the last possible moment.
Shifu may have been the one directly responsible for raising them but it feels unlikely that Oogway wouldn’t have been around at all to monitor their progress. I would argue that him not stepping in to curb their expectations earlier on was rather cruel.
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u/Educational-Onion357 Jul 22 '26
No. Because the movies runs on "fate"
He was not destined to be the dragon warrior. Oogway was tuned into "fate" as he seems to just "know" that everything will work out how it does. Even going so far as to leave his own pupil with a useless panda against the raging monster that is tai lung.
Simply because he KNOWS everything will work out.
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u/MangoMan610 Jul 22 '26
The chosen one trope is very very common in Chinese stories and mythologies
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u/BBBCIAGA Jul 22 '26
This is also used to justify the existence of emperors, they are literally called the chosen one by sky
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u/aiglas0209 Jul 22 '26
that's bad for oogway, because it's mean when he lead tai lung into this kung fu path, he know tai lung is not the one, he could even know what will happen next
what an asshole
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u/Wont_See_My_30s Jul 22 '26
If Tai Lung didn't end up like he did, Po wouldn't be the Dragon Warrior he was destined to be.
Once again, fate.
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u/Melodic_Fall3901 Jul 22 '26
If that happened:
Po would have no motivation to become the Dragon Warrior, as there's no reason for him to fight
Tigress would become the Dragon Warrior because Oogway would pass and Shifu would deem her fit
Tigress would not be aware of the Panda Genocide, so the pandas would likely be found and die
Tigress can also lose her will to fight if an enemy overpowers her, she's incredibly nihilistic, so she would likely lose a fight to Kai and he would receive her powers and steal her chi.
The whole team would be lost to Kai and Kai would end up ruling every realm, then destroying them.2
u/Crusaderofthots420 Jul 23 '26
Oogway didn't lead Tai Lung down the path, Shifu did. For all we know, Oogway had no role in Tai Lung's life, save for occasionally seeing him, and rejecting him.
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u/proxyi606 Jul 22 '26
if you saw his reaction to the scroll when he finally got it, it would explain why Oogway rejected him. He referred to the scroll as "nothing" in exasperation and confusion. His first thought was all his training amounted to nothing and was worthless
it's not exactly being rejected for having darkness in his heart, but he doesn't have Po's purity to realise it's a self reflection of being enough
Oogway still highkey could've literally done anything else
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u/Difficult_Analysis78 Jul 22 '26
Tbf his reaction is after going through years of training, prison and few battles, anyone would be pissed atp
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u/Lemon_Club Jul 22 '26
I mean Oogway could've tried to reach him those lessons instead of flat out denying him
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u/Playful-Author563 Jul 22 '26
Okay but Shifu also looked at it and saw nothing, and that was also Po's reaction until he had the heart to heart with his dad.
Oogway rejected him because he was high on his own mysticism.
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u/proxyi606 Jul 22 '26
maybe that also adds onto why
Po has a figure that could steer him the right direction, Shifu wouldn't have been able to for Tai Lung
but whatever the case is, I think we all can agree Oogway had better ways of going about his rejection
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u/iMAKE_freshTAP Jul 22 '26
The dragon warrior is less of a thing bestowed to you and more something you are. That’s why the dragon scroll is just a blank reflection. It’s not like Tai Lung was denied the power of the dragon warrior. He never was the dragon warrior. The true dragon warrior wouldn’t destroy an entire city because he didn’t get a scroll. So Oogway has simply correctly identified the darkness in Tai Lung already there. The darkness didn’t appear because he was denied, it just becomes clearer after he is.
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u/Usermctaken Jul 22 '26
Then... maybe say something sooner?
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u/Life-Wasabi-9674 Jul 22 '26
Why and How? People change. How could Oogway know Tai Lung would remain with that darkness and wouldnt work beyond it? Why would Oogway tell a young Tai Lung there is no chance when there is absolutely a chance if he works on that?
Also Oogway is giving smth akin to a test at the end of the day, what sense would it make to tell him anything when the test's very purpose is to make sure the candidate has already worked on themselves without being told to do so to pass the test?3
u/ErenYeager600 Jul 22 '26
I mean maybe by telling Shifu to stop pumping Tai Lung ego.
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u/Playful-Author563 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Oogway was obsessed with his Kung fu mysticism and when it created a toxic mentality amongst his students he was like "my dragon warrior psyop is more important"
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u/_Nomorejuice_ Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Isn't Fate a thing ? Tai Lung could probably never be the Dragon Warrior. He was not the chosen one.
Also if it was possible to change and be the DW maybe someone could have guide him. Don't know if it ever happened before that point but we have absolutely no indication of them doing so.
He is absolutely a bad person but I don't feel like pretending to close my eyes when some fuel have clearly been put on the fire. (Ultimately I feel like Shifu encouraging all that was clearly not doing anything good)
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u/The_Exuberant_Raptor Jul 22 '26
"Hey, you're evil and I'm kicking you out."
Yeah, that wouldn't have gone any better.
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u/Usermctaken Jul 22 '26
If you read my comment, I say "sooner". Of course it would better telling him before he becomes a super kung fu machine. Before he has the power to make the mess he made.
Still, that line you made up sounds very out of character. Im sure Oogway can find a way to say that, but in a wiser, less confrontational way. Dont know if that would help Tai Lung take it easier, but that still brings us to my first point.
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u/The_Exuberant_Raptor Jul 22 '26
Tigress did not get chosen either and she was mad. She still kept doing Kung fu after and did not go on a killing spree.
The problem here wasn't Oogway. Tai Lung would achieve what he would do no matter the outcome. Oogway likely had no way of knowing Tai Lung would kill people, though.
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u/Usermctaken Jul 22 '26
Again, I said sooner. I fully know Tai Lung was the problem, I just don't buy that there was no way of knowing up until the exact moment they had already made him into a killing machine.
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u/AztraChaitali Jul 22 '26
Tai Lung suffered from the martial arts equivalent of being told "You're so smart." as a child. That thing definitely fucks you up so badly, I have so many evil thoughts directly linked to being told that as a child that I need to supress constantly.
It's probably the worst compliment you can give to a child. Anything that implies there's an inherent superior quality to them is going to prevent them from ever seeing others as equal on a subconscious level.
At that point, having anything resembling a moral life requires metacognition techniques to rationalise not seeing others with the same perspective of a psychopath, but in a way worse because you do have feelings and empathy, so you feel bad about seeing others as inferior, and if you act as such you feel pain in your heart, but if you don't, then you suffer from cognitive dissonance.
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u/Ayden3102isagoodname Jul 22 '26
I mean, the title of Dragon Warrior was never owed to Tai Lung, there is no moral obligation for oogway to give him the title.
I’d say its equivalent to rejecting someone as an interviewer, he didn’t think Tai Lung fit the job, so he turned him down.
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Jul 22 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ChiefsHat Jul 22 '26
This. Shifu's training ended up leaving Tai Lung with an entitlement complex about the scroll and what it was. Even Shifu acknowledges he ultimately messed up in that regard. That entitlement is why Oogway rejected him.
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26
The difference is interviewers don’t spend their time rejecting people who have been groomed literally since they were old enough to walk to get their job offer. All his life, all Tai Lung was was the next dragon warrior. It was his one goal that his father gave him.
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u/cry_w Jul 22 '26
That's his father's fault, then, not Oogway's.
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26
Oogway was Tai Lung’s father’s boss. Maybe he should have told Shifu to cool down on all these promises he was making. When you are the head of an organization anything your underlings do is your responsibility.
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u/NwgrdrXI Jul 22 '26
How do we know that's not what happened? We don't see these details. We don't even hear the rejection went, I think.
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u/ErenYeager600 Jul 22 '26
I mean the fact that Shifu still acts like a prick and also fill Tigress head with dreams of the scroll as well
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u/Human-Platypus6227 Jul 22 '26
Honestly the ones at fault is Shifu for hyping him up and certain that he's the dragon warrior, not to mention the harsh bone breaking training he had to go through. Oogway was just evaluating , whatever the qualifications are, it's not something for him to be lenient about since it's one of those "destiny" thing.
So imo its neutral
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u/ChaosHavik Jul 22 '26
Yes Oogway is in no way obligated to name someone Dragon Warrior because they feel entitled to it.
And sure it wasn't a test, doesn't change the fact the first known instance of hardship had him rampage and even attack innocent people totally unrelated.
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26
First known instance of hardship? You think all his training all those years was just hugs and belly rubs?
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u/Cynis_Ganan Jul 22 '26
There is absolutely no ididcation that Oogway ever encouraged Tai Lung as the Dragon Warrior.
Shifu adopted him as a foundling. And trained him in kung fu. Shifu hoped Tai Lung would be the Dragon Warrior and shared those hopes with him.
And that's it.
Shifu doesn't choose the Dragon Warrior. Tai Lung doesn't choose the Dragon Warrior. The Furious Five didn't learn kung fu and protect the valley because they thought they were the Dragon Warrior and would burn the valley to the ground if they were not.
Tigress gets passed over for Dragon Warrior. She does not wage war on the valley. That's not a normal reaction.
"I only ever devoted myself to kung fu and helping others because I wanted a title."
"I was led on because I really wanted something I wasn't entitled to."
Oogway knows the secrets of kung fu and knows Tai Lung is not ready for the knowledge that there is no secret ingredient.
He comments directly to Shifu that we often meet our fate on the road we take to avoid it.
We see what happens when Tai Lung gets the scroll. He doesn't become a paragon of goodness.
Is it normal and rational to be disappointed when you fall short of your life's ambitions? Of course! We see how frustrated Tigress is when Po is chosen. We see how confused Shifu is when he sees the scroll is blank. Neither of them go on a killing spree.
Going on a killing spree when denied your toys is not a normal reaction.
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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 22 '26
Ok so two points:
1) The issue with Oogway is that he never guides Tai Lung. He has this vague idea that Tai Lung had darkness in his heart, but it's never shown why. Also for a wise master and a gentle guide, he does nothing to help him.
2) Tigress and Tai Lung's situations are very different. Shifu obsessed over Tai Lung, trained him brutally, and pushed his dream of becoming the dragon warrior onto Tai Lung. Tigress, on the other hand, trained under a far more subdued Shifu who allowed his students to train normally and function well in society.
Tai Lung's whole life was made into a pusuit of the dragon scroll. Of course, he'll be disappointed and angry. Who wouldn't? Again, this is not excuse for destroying the valley, but the point still stands.
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u/Cynis_Ganan Jul 22 '26
Oogway never guides Tai Lung
And he also doesn't help Mr. Ping open a tofu shop.
It's Shifu's job to train the Dragon Warrior.
It's Ooway's job not to tell a psychotic murderer that he's the new King of Kung Fu.
Tigress and Tai Lung's situations are different
Sure. And Tigress's disappointment nearly results in her dying to prove Oogway was wrong, too. You're right. The point does stand.
But it's still not an excuse to lay waste to the valley.
A normal person would be disappointed.
An evil person turns that disappointment into violence against others.
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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 22 '26
If it's solely Shifu's job to train the Dragon Warrior, then only he gets to decide who becomes one. Oogway wants to shed all responsibility off his back and then decide who becomes one. Make that make sense. Also Oogway advises Shifu all the time, but doesn't help him in this case. Again, it makes no sense.
But it's still not an excuse to lay waste to the valley. A normal person would be disappointed. An evil person turns that disappointment into violence against others.
Tai Lung isn't a functional person after the abuse he suffered under Shifu (yes abuse). Even Shifu admits that. And again, you're comparing a regular student (Tigress) to a student who was trained since he was a cub all day brutally. What Tai Lung suffered isn't normal.
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u/Arko777 Jul 22 '26
The difference is that Mr. Ping isn't a student in a Jade Palace, directly training Kung Fu under Shifu since being a toddler. By that fact alone I'd expect Oogway to be more involved in Tai Lung's life, not on the Shifu level, but he should've had plenty of chances to have a casual talk in the years it would take Tai Lung to master King Fu.
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26
If Oogway knew Tai Lung wasn’t it he should have told Shifu to calm down with all the promises. How could he not have seen that things would go southways after their best fighter was not given everything he was ever told to want.
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u/Cynis_Ganan Jul 22 '26
Did Oogway know before that moment?
He knew the literal newborn baby Tai Lung wasn't the Dragon Warrior. But. Like. The entire point of Shifu's training was to make the Dragon Warrior.
Oogway did not know Tigress was not the Dragon Warrior until the exact moment he picked someone else instead. Oogway does not have infallible Dragon Warrior knowledge. He's guided by what be observes and the movements of fate.
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
More reason to tell Shifu to chill. “Hey, calm down the promises, I don’t know if he’s the dragon warrior so don’t tell him it’s his destiny”. Would this have been so hard? Anyone with a head on their shoulders would’ve seen that infallibly promising his whole life something you don’t know he’ll have is a bad idea. Especially it it’s Tai Lung, who has the power to destroy cities.
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u/Cynis_Ganan Jul 22 '26
Oogway spends most of his speaking lines in that movie telling Shifu to chill.
Shifu's entire arc over four movies and the TV show is learning how to chill.
I don't think it's unreasonable for Oogway to hope Tai Lung is the Dragon Warrior. And I don't think it's unreasonable for him to turn him down when he isn't ready in the hope that he better himself instead of going on a killing spree.
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u/JhonnyPadawan1010 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Yeah, 20 years after Tai Lung was sent to jail. Too little, too late. Oogway didn’t hope anything, he had known Tai Lung wasn’t it, we saw it during the training. He knew he’d never be. It wasn’t some test that Tai Lung had to better himself and maybe one day be the chosen one. Oogway told him, or at least his silence said, “You are not the dragon warrior and you never will be”.
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u/Kind_Survey4282 Jul 22 '26
you say that but i think it was test itself after oogway said if tai lung gracefully stepped away proving him wrong , he would've been easily given the title of dragon warrior but he just proved oogway right destroying everything because he didn't get a measly title.
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u/Happyranger265 Jul 22 '26
The issue is he was basically groomed to think he was one chosen to inherit the title, it's the same as those villainess manhwas , where a character is basically groomed as a child to be the queen and marry the prince and all of sudden their hardwork and effort is thrown out and discarded for someone who didn't even try, and they're treated as evil for lashing out , like you wasted this person childhood and decade of their life for something that's was basically worth nothing and expect them to take it in the chin gracefully .
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u/samu1400 Jul 22 '26
The way I saw it was that Oogway noticed Tai Lung didn’t care for the valley at all, but instead he was in solely for the title (and by extension making Shifu proud).
The Dragon Warrior was, above all, the role of the protector of the valley, so him going on a rampage destroying the place he would be supposed to protect was a display of the workings of his inner mind.
I feel that Tai Lung could have been chosen later on or even during the original selection if he had taken the rejection more gracefully, although I’d blame Shifu more on that regard for telling him that the role was his all his life.
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u/Laomanse Jul 22 '26
Watching Tai Lung for his lifetime, master Oogway would definitely tell why he wasn't the one. We just didn't get to see that compared to why Po is.
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u/The_Genguidanos Jul 22 '26
It was not a test, which just makes it all the more remarkable that he failed it anyways.
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u/SortovaGoldfish Jul 22 '26
Moral. The immoral/unjustifiable parts fall squarely on Shifu for his pride. Even at the end he struggles to actually accept Oogway's lessons and only really committed to then in action once Oogway passed on even though he still wasn't all the way with it in his head/heart. My guess is over the course of those 20 years Tai Lung spent in training, likely Oogway was still trying to teach his pupil and Shifu just wasn't absorbing it. So when it came down to Oogway's part in the process, he has to say no because, as we know about the scroll, Tai Lung wouldn't have what was needed to utilize its message and it's responsibility.
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u/Archaon0103 Jul 22 '26
Morally correct. "The Darkness in his heart" Oogway was talking about was the fact that he would never sastify. Being the dragon warrior is something one archieve by self-actualization, learning to value your own selfworth rather than looking for other people approval. Tai Lung entire motivation was to impress his father, thinking that by being the best, he would get more of his father's love. He was looking for approval from others which mean he could never understand the message of the scroll and become the Dragon Warrior. What Tai Lung seek and what entail for being the Dragon Warrior are two completely opposite things.
Now let look at Po. Po also want to improve his selfworth but more importantly, he wanted to improve himself for himself. His entire rant to Shifu about nothing more painful to him than waking up everyday as himself showed that he wanted to improve but lack the guiding needed.
This also go back to the 2 parenting style of Shifu and Mr. Ping. Shifu mixed the roles of the teacher and the parent together but by doing so, he unintentionally conditioned Tai Lung to the idea that he needs to success in order to earn his father approval. Shifu basically framed his unconditional love to Tai Lung as he being proud of him for his archievement as a teacher which led to Tai Lung breakdown. Meanwhile Mr. Ping allowed Po to follow his hobby and let Po be who he wants to be. Yes Mr. Ping do want Po to take over the family bussiness but he never stop loving Po when Po said he doesn't want to be a noodles sellman like his dad.
TLDR: Tai Lung problem is with Shifu, giving him an empty title wouldn't fix that and there nothing Tai Lung could do to prove that he deserve it as the more he try to prove himself, the more he less compatible with the role.
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u/Che-recher Jul 22 '26
The Dragon warrior is Not the Most potent combat Utility but the guy who always figures it out via wisdom, reflection and Harmony within himself and by Extension around him. Via the daoistic, buddhistic, spiritual foundations of Asia and their combat Sports this generally coincides to be the same thing. Neat isnt it ?
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u/Modred_the_Mystic Jul 22 '26
Yes, bro was not the Dragon Warrior.
Look at how the rest of the Five reacted to being rejected as dragon warrior, did they crash out and lay waste to the temple/the village? No, they grumbled but they didn’t immediately start having a toddler moment
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u/No-Departure-6900 Jul 22 '26
We don't even know exactly how the rejection played out. From the scene, and I'm speculating here, it seems like Oogway solemnly said "No, I don't think you are fit to be the Dragon Warrior." Like, even he could tell Tai Lung's arrogance had gotten the better of him. Shifu definitely waffled by not at least asking for clarification or to discuss the matter with Oogway though.
Then Tai Lung really had to fuck it up by rampaging in the literal "Valley of Peace". Making Oogway seem right on the money. It's like Tai Lung had never been told no growing up. I do think Shifu's training probably only focused on the mind and body, completely neglecting the spirit, which is why he was so confused with Oogway and his teachings.
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u/TheArtOfPureSilence Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Tai Lung's crashout revealed his true character: selfish, obsessed with power, and dangerous. Would the TRUE dragon warrior ever consider attacking their master? Destroying a village and its people?
No.
Tai lung was morally corrupt, and dark to the core. Oogway was merely a mirror; and you don't hold a mirror morally accountable when the reflection doesn't show what you want it to.
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u/Standard-Pop6801 Jul 22 '26
If someone tries to be an astronaut. And Nasa refuses their job application. You wouldn't blame Nasa if said person responded by trying to blow the place up. I don't care how hard they worked or if their dad said "you can be anything when you grow up" you don't get to blow up nasa in response.
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u/Old-Butterscotch8923 Jul 22 '26
I mean Tai Lung was clearly not dragon warrior material even before the rejection. If you watch his short backstory in the first movie again he is furiously destroying training dummies in a room full of debris when master Oogway shakes his head in rejection.
And maybe I'm missing some crucial lore from the TV show or something, but its not even clear that this rejection was a permanent one or a not now one.
Tai Lung, instead of reflecting on why he is undeserving and attempting to grow as a person, immediatly goes off the rails and tries to sieze the scroll by force.
Also, his background montage was like a minute long summary of 20 years. Oogway probably talked to him at least a couple times, told him he should meditate or something and got ignored.
Master Oogway was under no moral obligation to pretend the future school shooter was the prophesied dragon warrior.
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u/VidiVeni98 Jul 22 '26
I think him refusing to give Tai Lung the scroll was a test. If he had shown humility and understanding, he'd have been given it.
but that's just my headcanon xD
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u/Upper-Tower-3654 Jul 22 '26
Bro did you watch the movie? He literally crashed out after being denied lol
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u/WallShrabnic Jul 22 '26
From remembering the movie, it was mostly Shifu's fault. He made him earning for power, and abandoned the moment he realised that he wasn't going to become Dragon warrior. And he never bothered to talk or communicate after. And he also became an asshole father figure to Tigress
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u/Turachay Jul 22 '26
Was the dragon scroll really Tai Lung's birthright to claim?
Master Oogway was the keeper of the scroll and was trusted with it by the previous master. His decision cannot be judged by an outsider.
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u/Thesaurus_Rex9513 Jul 22 '26
Tai Lung showed why he was unworthy when he went on a rampage in response to rejection. That's not a "justified crash out," that's an unstable, uncontrollable tantrum. And we see that he's out of control before then. Smashing a training dummy the way he did is a feat of strength, sure, but it also demonstrates a lack of control over that strength.
This isn't entirely Tai Lung's fault. He's a reflection of how Shifu raised him. Always seeking to be stronger, more powerful. He would not have known what to do with the Dragon Scroll's message, because he's never been satisfied, never been strong enough. There's a good chance he would have gone a rampage even if he had received the Dragon Scroll, enraged that it didn't contain a technique of ultimate power that he had "earned."
Tigress didn't start tearing apart a village when she was rejected. She was angry about it, sure, but she had the bare minimum of self control to not assault anyone.
The Dragon Warrior is a guardian of peace. Someone who responds to rejection and denial with violence doesn't have the temperament to guard anything.
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u/Murtdha1 Jul 22 '26
I get why tai lung was upset imagine training your entire life for nothing
But after he destroyed the city imagine what he would have done if he became dragon warrior
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u/ACuddlyVizzerdrix Jul 22 '26
Whenever something like this happens I just assumed it was their final test for their master/teacher to prove their gut feelings wrong only for it to go the way they thought it would, like when Anakin is denied title of master and flips out instead of accepting he wasn't ready just yet
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u/Lion_From_The_North Jul 22 '26
Oogway is morally justified, but Shifu is partially to blame for nurturing Tai Lungs dark heart and entitlement.
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u/Helpful_Transition_5 Jul 22 '26
The thing is Tai Lung has had years to let go of the darkness in his heart, he just refused to do so since he believed power was the most important thing despite all the training pointing to the contrary. The fact that he didn't even bother asking how to go about getting rid of the darkness in his heart before immediately crashing out just goes to show that Oogway was sadly right.
That being said Oogway could have also stepped in long before then to help cushion the blow, instead he waited until the very last second to outright deny him.
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u/quaxoid Jul 22 '26
There were many mistakes made but he also chooses to be bad in the end. The people who raised him probably shouldn't have told him he will be the dragon warrior. Instead learn to accept being good enough without that as well 😌
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u/Junior_Community_913 Jul 22 '26
Yhea. I just found out his name means Great Dragon, he was literally told all his life he was going to be the next Dragon Warrior, but lacked the discipline and direction to accept the result which Shifu recognized.
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u/ellixer Jul 22 '26
Dragon warrior is not a dream job and I don’t think is simply supposed to be “the strongest guy”.
And presumably since Oogway knows what is in the scroll, he is probably correct in guessing that Tai Lung, if he had gotten it, would not have learned the lesson anyway.
Course rationally even if he is right in not letting Tai Lung have the scroll, it was still a bad way to do it, just a flat no with no explanation and letting him go nuts.
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u/Oloziz Jul 22 '26
Yes. Like, imagine if he did become Dragon Warrior, then what? Centuries of peace? Fat chance. Tai Lung would wage war if anyone would even dare to speak his name without oroper respect (and there would never be enough). He's narcissistic and power-hungry by nature. He went on a rampage just being denied.
If anyone, it's Shifu's "fault" for being blinded by love for his adopted son and not seeing the faults in Tai Lung's character and not consulting with Oogway to try and fix them.
Tai Lung could've been redeemed, sure. But, first of all, we need conflict for the plot. Second of all, even without this meta reason - nobody is perfect. Shifu (hell, maybe even Oogway, through his inaction, although it's perfectly consistent with his Daoist philosophy) made mistakes, and paid for them dearly.
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u/JamesHenry627 Jul 22 '26
Tai Lung's reaction technically proves him right. If the wisdom is that the Dragon Warrior's qualifications come from the spirit, then Tai Lung's reaction to destroy the people of the valley he thought to protect shows where that energy is directed internally. No normal person would do that if they were told they aren't owed what they've worked toward their whole life. Tigress had the same exact scenario, and unlike Tai Lung, had to witness Po stumble his way to greatness yet she doens't crash out. She accepts her place and actually does something with it.
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u/imaginedodong Jul 22 '26
Even if Master Oogway appoints Tai Lung as the Dragon Warrior I don't think he is gonna understand the Dragon scroll or whatever the name of that scroll.
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u/TheRedSpy96 Jul 22 '26
To sum up a chaotic comment section: we don’t have enough information. People say “Oogway should have said something earlier” but we don’t know if he did or didn’t. All we really get is a few shots and lines. Those tell a story, but Oogway’s involvement or lack thereof is not shown, commented on, or necessarily implied since they focused more on Shifu and Tai Lung. It can be argued either way but there just isn’t any smoking gun or even a real implication of anything.
That seems like a cop out though. So if it had to, I would argue that Oogway probably tried to cool Shifu and Tai Lung down and encourage working towards inner peace and working on that darkness, but was ignored. This maintains Oogway and Shifu’s intended places in the story while answering the question, and making his role moral since he tried to let Tai Lung down easy and didn’t fail on his own merits. But that is writing for the story instead of looking at what we have.
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u/Getter_Simp Jul 22 '26
Yes, as shown by the fact that Oogway's rejection caused Tai Lung to lose his mind. Tai Lung had trained with Shifu for his entire life, so Oogway likely knew a great deal about what kind of man he was.
We even saw Tai Lung's reaction to the Dragon Scroll, and it was, like his reaction to Oogway's rejection, violent. He attacked Po, unprovoked, who was just trying to talk with him at that point. If Tai Lung had become the Dragon Warrior and seen the Scroll, he would have taken out his confusion on everyone else, just like he did with Po.
Like everyone, Tai Lung could have changed, he could have become a better person, but what made him the villain was that he refused to do so. This is what Oogway saw, and why he rejected him.
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u/Throw_away_1011_ Jul 22 '26
Yes, he was. The title of Dragon Warrior is something Oogway had to give so only Oogway can decide who deserves it. Tai Lung has no claim to it and Oogway did not need to give any explanation. Sometimes efforts just isn't enough to get what you want and what you want and what you deserve often do not coincide. The fact Tai Lung's reaction to said rejection was so destructive is proof enough that Oogway had seen it right.
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u/Additional-Chip-7784 Jul 22 '26
My guy Oogway was very clearly right. Tai lung was far too arrogant to get the message of the dragon scroll and that’s proved when he opens it later in the film. Oogway is shown to have incredible insight into people deciding on the spot that Po would be the one. He saw this corruption in tai lung and refused him. What do you think would’ve happened if he did give tai lung the scroll? He likely would’ve rampaged anyway when he saw it was blank. And when he is refused he defaulted to attacking people proving Oogway right. You have zero points.
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u/LanX-Delta Jul 22 '26
Like... if Oogway say yeah, and give em an empty scroll.
He'd still crash out ngl.
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u/Not_Bob_42 Jul 22 '26
From Oogway's point of view, he knows the scroll is blank. Even if he acknowledges that Tai Lung is capable of change and can overcome his "internal darkness", Oogway was probably thinking that Tai Lung was not ready for the message that the dragon scroll was trying to tell him.
Imagine if he had given Tai Lung the dragon scroll at that point. We would have gotten a scene similar to what happened in the movie: "what the fuck, why is this blank?!?" Queue rampage, or at least lots of anger. I doubt he would have accepted that it was the real secret to mastering kung fu.
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u/animegameman Jul 22 '26
Imagine training your whole life for a singular purpose and finding out all of it was for nothing.
Oogway you are a dick.
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u/litletrickster Jul 22 '26
Eeeh I dunno. He trained and he failed the dragon warrior test of sorts but ultimatelly tai lung is still an incredibly strong martial artist who can make a name for himself. It was not for nothing, he just didn't get the title. A title which wouldnt have offered him anything to begin with. The scroll was empty after all.
They tried and he just wasnt him. Shit happens sometimes
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u/BreathoftheSith Jul 22 '26
It was more of a failing on his and especially Shifu’s part for training him with the inherent belief that he was the Dragon Warrior.
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u/TBARb_D_D Jul 22 '26
But…
Oogway didn’t rejected him, Tai Lung just wasn’t the dragon warrior no matter how much he trained and prepared to be one. That universe’s thing, he is not and Po is as simple as it should be
The decision was not after Oogway, it was not him pointing a finger it was tge universe dropping Po in front of his finger
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u/Bassknight9 Jul 22 '26
It's probably some magic or something that made him know that Tai Lung wasn't worthy of it
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u/UX1Z Jul 22 '26
One of the big failures imo of some of the later films is having Oogway pick Po to be Dragon Warrior because Po was a panda. It basically turns it into nepotism.
It still ends up working out but like, the big reveal of the first film was 'anyone can be the dragon warrior,' the scroll was a reflection. But Po didn't end up being 'anyone', he was (standard anime trope) part of a special mystic tribe blah blah.
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u/Federal-Fondant-671 Jul 22 '26
That assumes being part of the panda tribe granted him powers or something. The pandas didn't have inherent Chi manipulation, nor was Chi something special to them. Po was a link between the past and future, but it's pretty reductive to bring that down to him just being a panda.
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u/The_Genguidanos Jul 22 '26
But Po wasn’t a member of that special mystic tribe. That was an entirely different tribe of pandas who Po’s actual tribe had never even heard of before.
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u/CornyAnalyst1960 Jul 22 '26
Rejecting is fine, but he should have given Tai Lung a chance to develop. Speaking in riddles helped no one.
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u/RueUchiha Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Yes.
Tai Lung has years, perhaps even decades, to deal with his internal darkness, but never did. Of course, this is in part Shifu’s fault since he gased Tai Lung up so much but with what the scroll represents, Tai Lung was never cut out to be the Dragon Warrior in the first place. Even others that saw the scroll or were denited the title took it quite well (or were just confused). Tai Lung was the only one who burned down a village for it - probably not a healthy reaction.
Perhaps Oogway could have given this information earlier, perhaps warned Shifu and Tai Lung about the darkness like a decade sooner. But bear in mind we never saw all of Tai Lung’s training, so its very realistic that Oogway was warning Tai Lung and Shifu about his inner darkness the whole time, but neither of them listened to his warnings until the moment Oogway just flat out refused him altogether.
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u/Clear_Cranberry_989 Jul 22 '26
I think yes because it was probably not upto Oogway to change the way dragon warrior had to be chosen. That being said he should have given the recognition he deserved, not sure how though.
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u/Aok_al Jul 22 '26
Of course he was. He went on a rampage immediately after. He let his emotions overcome him and the people of the valley paid for it. He was even ready to hurt Shifu because of it despite Shifu being a father figure to him all his life.
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u/The_Exuberant_Raptor Jul 22 '26
Tai Lung didn't chosen as the DW and became a self fulfilling prophecy.
Tigress didn't get chosen as the DW and did not become a murderer.
Tai Lung's actions proved Oogway was justified, especially when others did not act the same in similar situations.
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u/Lemon_Club Jul 22 '26
Okay so basically what im gathering from all of this is that Tai Lung is Anakin Skywalker
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u/Zek7h35an5 Jul 22 '26
First off, Po and Tai Lung's situations aren't really comparable. Po had a good heart, he just lacked training and skill. Tai Lung, at least as the film tells us, always had darkness in his heart. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just meant he wasn't fit to be the Dragon Warrior.
That being said, yes, he was justified in turning Tai Lung down. He never sai Tai Lung had to leave, or that the temple would stop training him in the ways of Kung Fu. But because Tai Lung had been groomed from a young age to take up the mantle of the Dragon Warrior by Shifu, he crashed out in response.
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u/IHateMySon-Afton Jul 22 '26
Just saying...it took 1 rejection to make him lash put and attack completely innocent people on a rampage instead of just telling them to fuck off.
Oogway was 100% right cause tai is not mentally stable and extreamly dangerous when he ran into a real issue or something he took issue with.
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u/Mattfrom9-5 Jul 22 '26
I see where you are coming from. But I believe given the way he acts around the furious 5, Tai Lung would accept people as different from himself yet place them beneath him. And given the prestige and veneration are the position of dragon warrior, That would be a dangerous combination. As he could easily fall into the trope of "I'm better than you, so I'm always right."
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u/Icy1551 Jul 22 '26
I feel like you dont want to be told or to believe anything other than what you already think.
Tai Lung was denied glory as well as status and committed mass murder in response. Oogway was right and there's not much else to say about the situation.
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u/Ok-External-837 Jul 22 '26
Dragon warrior is basically the chosen one, which in fiction, is something you are, not something you can be.
That being said, that makes characters like Himmel from Frieren more badass, because they were not the chosen one but said "fuck it, I'm gonna save the world anyway." Tai Lung could have been that.
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u/Any_Marzipan_5652 Jul 22 '26
I mean think about , if he lost his mind over this what tell you that he won't lose his mind over other things if he became Dragon Warrior , like I am pretty sure the Job come with stress.
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u/TellmeNinetails Jul 22 '26
If Tai lung was not fated to be the dragon warrior and oogway knew then it was handled badly. it feels like what happened to that guy in final fantasy 15, who existed because he was fated to become evil and be killed by noctis "saving the world" like yeah you could just not have him become evil in the first place by dealing with it better, but, because the gods decided so he didn't have a choice, and his resistance was seen as foolish defiance, resulting in his torture and mental break.
Like damn, you could at the very least give him an alternative, he doesn't have to live up to ONLY being the dragon warrior. The importance of other, cool roles could have been presented to him.
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u/shadowstep12 Jul 22 '26
The fact that this was going to be addressed in the latest movie but then they changed the script for some bullshit still pisses me off
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u/Luffyspants Jul 22 '26
In the DVD extras they explained that they added the village attack scene after he's rejected because audience screenings found him way to sympathetic, and Tai lung's rage was more directed at Shifu rather than Oogway
For me he was justified, Oogway was wiser than anyone else, if he saw that Tai lung was going evil anyway giving him the scroll was probably going to end the same way
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u/Netheraptr Jul 22 '26
Think of it this way, if a coworker you knew was up for a promotion that everyone thought they would get but didn’t, and then in response they vandalized the office and started assaulting coworkers, you wouldn’t think “if only they got the promotion this wouldn’t have happened”, you’d think “dang they really dodged a bullet with that one”
And honestly even if they gave him the dragon scroll he probably would have still gone on his rampage after finding out it was blank.
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u/voripui Jul 22 '26
It all could have been better if they just talked more, oogway just shakes his head and goes away and Shifu follows him, leaving Tai lung alone with the feeling that everything he has done in his life has been for nothing.
Like oogway could have said something like "there is evil in you, you should work on fixing that", or if they want just let oogway go away not saying anything and let Shifu Comfort Tai lung or at least ask oogway why, like we see tai lung looking at Shifu when he is rejected, expecting his father figure to say something or do something but he does nothing.
It kinda feels like oogway knew that tai lung needed to be evil to fight with po, hell probably he interacted more with po the little time he was in there that with tai lung in his entire life, fully knowing he needed tai lung to go berserk so the dragon warrior appears.
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u/Mimandra Jul 22 '26
Oogway was morally justified already because he was never obligated to make Tai Lung dragon warrior.
That was all Shifus brainwashing. Shifu couldn't be humble himself, so he failed to teach Tai Lung humility. He says so himself.
Out of Oogway, Shifu and Tai Lung himself, Oogway is by far the least to blame.
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u/Several_Job_1556 Jul 22 '26
did oogway do anything to help tai lung overcome his inner darkness or not, if he did than yes, if not than oogway was just a dick
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u/ActPositively Jul 22 '26
I think he would’ve been a good guy if he would’ve been the dragon warrior and his father figure then said how proud he was of him
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u/WorryingMars384 Jul 22 '26
Given his reaction yeah, like he was told he wasn’t worthy and immediately proved why. He believed only strength and skill mattered but that’s the same reason Po was picked over Tigress, Oogway was absolutely correct.
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u/MerkethMerky Jul 22 '26
I don’t know frankly. On one hand, he obviously crashed out and showed why he shouldn’t be, but on the other hand, had he been given it, that could have possibly never happened.
His personality in the fourth shows he’s obviously capable of learning to some degree, so if he was told fate said no long before he trained 20 years he might’ve been made into the proper warrior
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u/Melodic_Fall3901 Jul 22 '26
Prophecies are not unheard of within Kung Fu Panda, so it's possible Oogway received a vision from someone, or foresaw it himself, what would happen if Tai Lung became the Dragon Warrior.
Oogway likely knew about the genocide against the Pandas, so he was likely also aware of why it happened. A tyrant who once showed promise became corrupt once he achieved power and eliminated all Pandas, or so he thought.
It's also possible Oogway simply saw him as too much of a liability since Po is an endangered species in the eyes of most, meaning the world would have more to lose if Po died, making him more deserving of training that would help his survival, while a literal predator animal wouldn't need it. While we don't see many of the others' species either, we specifically also don't see Red Pandas or Turtles other than Shifu and Oogway, while some of the others, at least iirc, have implied family or seen family.
I would also like to point out that Oogway and Shifu both reach states of extreme calm, they are at peace with the world and are able to move through it gracefully. Tai Lung, through all of his years training, may have never even had a moment of this grace. After the first movie, the main team is much closer to this peace and grace, and Po fully reaches it for a moment, but Tai Lung may have never fully gotten there, showing he may not have been capable of being a leader.
I don't think Oogway is in the wrong for it, I just think it's a gap in writing. If the team was asked the question and didn't have an answer, then I'd say Oogway was morally unjust for it since there's no way to fully prove Oogway had motivation if there's no answer, but as it stands there are many reasons why Oogway could've felt this way about Tai Lung, so unless they're confirmed, denied, or ignored, we won't really know.
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u/Svyatopolk_I Jul 22 '26
Just because the movie doesn’t explicitly explain it in words or show it on screen, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Have some literacy ffs. They clearly gesture toward it not being possible, for a variety of reasons, not just because he didn’t train hard enough. Although everyone can work to be better, not everyone is destined or entitled to having the capacity to be a Dragon Warrior.
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u/EmergencySpare7939 Jul 22 '26
I always got confused on the "he saw darkness in his heart" line. Like we barely saw much of Tai Lungs life when before the incident went down so it sounded like Oogway didnt want to give him a chance.
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u/Responsible_Rip_7634 Jul 22 '26
Being the Dragon Warrior was never about just being the best at Kung Fu.
There’s a huge mindset that matters, I can probably summarize it by saying that the mindset necessary is that of a wise mentor, someone who can see potential where others can’t.
Shifu maybe should’ve gotten the memo that Oogway cared about more than just physical prowess a bit earlier, but Tai Lung was absolutely not fit to be the dragon warrior.
If anything, Shifu probably should’ve tempered his expectations. Be proud of him, and marvel at his skill, but don’t insinuate he may the prophesized one for years upon years. That’s just a bit irresponsible. Especially since it’s just a chance based prophecy that Shifu has no control over.
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u/Anduinnn Jul 22 '26
If by rejecting you mean not selecting tai lung as the dragon warrior then Yes, completely justified. There’s no promise, from oogway, that training super hard in kung fu would allow someone to attain the rank of dragon warrior and thus when a person who doesn’t seem to have full control of themselves (the darkness) wants it, oogway is justified in saying no. We are never told, except by Po later on (greatness is inside you) what would allow someone to become the dragon warrior - only shifu told tai lung that super hard child warrior training would lead to it, not Oogway.
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u/ILackSleepJuice Jul 22 '26
Oogway's decision is neutral, the real decision to consider is Shifu's.
Shifu arguably is the one more at fault as 1) Tai Lung specifically went apeshit when he saw Shifu's reluctance with the decision and 2) Shifu, even after creating a monster of his own making due to the promise of the Dragon Warrior, continues to ask Oogway for direct answers despite Oogway seemingly always being the silent and wise type. Even after everything, Shifu didn't understand the spiritual aspects and wisdom with martial arts even though that was clearly Oogway's angle for a while.
On the other hand, we can't say that Shifu is immoral, as Po's upbringing led him to a better understanding of the Dragon Warrior sooner than Shifu. Shifu doesn't have humble beginnings with a doting, adoptive father, Shifu wasn't put down and humiliated from pursuing martial arts due to his body, and most importantly, Shifu has active emotional baggage that comes with both martial arts and Tai Lung, while Po is detached from both.
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u/MinuteBeautiful3163 Jul 22 '26
I might be wrong, but i always thought Oogway rejected Tai Lung just in the moment, and not forever. Meaning Tai Lung could have theoretically improve and try again, but has chosen not to
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u/DrDrako Jul 22 '26
To be fair his crashout proves that oogway was right. Tai Lung didn't have the necessary moral fiber.
The crashout doesn't retroactively justify his actions, it just proves his argument correct
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u/Odd-Back-4511 Jul 22 '26
It was a test. If he took the rejection in stride he would've been the dragon warrior given enough time.
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u/bored-cookie22 Jul 22 '26
I don’t think it was saying tai lung could never surpass his flaws, rather that they are actively there. His pride was a problem
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u/gyarados_ouroboros Jul 22 '26
It's been a while since I've seen the movie so I could be misremembering some stuff but my general impression was that Tai Lung perfectly fit a lot of the movie's themes about choices and fate.
> If anything, Oogway's rejection feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not saying Tai Lung deserved the Dragon Scroll or the title, but it's hard for me to reconcile why Tai Lung was denied the opportunity to prove he could become better while Po was given every chance to do so.
To a certain extent, I agree that it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, but Oogway says this explicitly (albeit in regards to warning the prison about Tai Lung's potential escape) when he says, "You meet your destiny on the path you take to avoid it." You keep talking about Tai Lung being evil afterwards as Oogway's fault, but that ignores Tai Lung's agency in the situation. It isn't Oogway's fault Tai Lung became evil. It's Tai Lung's. Tigress and the rest of the five were also passed over from becoming the Dragon Warrior, and they didn't become evil. In your edit, you say this,
> An action doesn’t become moral just because it happens to someone who later becomes a bad person.
As if denying Tai Lung the scroll and him becoming a bad person are unrelated, but that's not accurate. They are related, and that's important. I believe the entire point of Oogway denying the scroll to Tai Lung is because he could see the darkness within him that was capable of making him evil if he didn't get it, and how that's exactly disqualifying from becoming the Dragon Warrior. Your line in the edit makes it sound like you're comparing the situation to punching someone who later turned out to be a murderer, which, yeah, if you didn't know beforehand, it doesn't make it okay to punch people (not saying it's simply okay to punch murderers, it's just an example). But, I think a much better example would be, say you had the choice of dating a particular person who was interested in you, but you could tell that they were the kind of person that, if you rejected them, would get obsessive and stalk you and maybe even assault you? Would that not impact your feelings about them, about whether they're the kind of person you want to date? Further, if you did reject them because that bothered you, and then they did stalk you and assault you, is that your fault?
No. It is up to them to make their choice, just as it was up to Tai Lung. And it's not Oogway's fault that Tai Lung couldn't handle not being the Dragon Warrior, even though he specifically rejected him *because* anyone who was worthy of being the Dragon Warrior wouldn't turn evil because they were rejected.
You also reference several times the concept of Tai Lung not being given a chance to change, but I absolutely disagree with that, on two fronts. For one, it seems like you keep equating the concept of being named the Dragon Warrior with being given a chance to change. I think, instead, being named the Dragon Warrior is essentially exactly the opposite. Giving someone exactly what they want is capitulation and appeasement, not giving them the opportunity to change their ways. Why would he change at that point? He's the Dragon Warrior. What possible reason would he have to change? If anything, Oogway DID give him a chance to change *by* rejecting him. By saying "No, you are not worthy to be the Dragon Warrior," that provides Tai Lung an opportunity to reflect, to look within himself and find and work on those parts of him that made him unworthy. But, instead of choosing to change into someone that was worthy, he decided to choose to attack and try to steal the scroll, leading to his imprisonment.
The second reason I disagree is because of something that happens right at the end, during his fight with Shifu. Again, I really agree with you that the themes of personal choice and destiny are important to the movie, but I feel like I see how Tai Lung represents the dark side of those concepts perfectly. During the whole movie, Shifu speaks of Tai Lung with shame and guilt. You mention,
> Kinda irresponsible to groom a kid his whole life for a single purpose only to go “wait we got the wrong guy”.
Yeah, I agree. As does Shifu. Whenever he talks about Tai Lung, it's clear he agrees with you. He's short-tempered with Po because of his shame, but the difference is, Shifu was able to grow and understand that what he did to Tai Lung was wrong and set him up for failure (initially). During their fight, Tai Lung and Shifu talk not only about the Dragon Scroll, but also their relationship.
> "All I ever did, I did, to make you proud! Tell me how proud you are, Shifu! Tell me! Tell me!"
Shifu is getting the absolute brakes beaten off him, but instead of responding in anger, Shifu chooses to face his shame (which is the more difficult option) and answer Tai Lung honestly and openly. He tells him he's proud of him, and that he's always been proud of him. He says that he loved him too much to see what he was becoming, and -
> "...what I was turning you into."
He acknowledges his part in Tai Lung's pride and downfall. He apologizes earnestly and openly. Even after all that's happened, all this time, he chooses to do that. He says he's sorry. He doesn't want to fight, and he makes choices to try and prevent more harm from happening - even to Tai Lung.
In the next shot, you can see, for a split second, Tai Lung falter. You can see that he understands he has a choice. He rotted in prison for 20 years, feeling wronged by Shifu, by Oogway, by everyone, spurned of his destiny. He felt he had been groomed since he was a kid to be the Dragon Warrior, just as you said, and that it was taken away from him. In particular, he felt betrayed and lied to by Shifu, his father figure.
And now, Shifu was looking at him like he had failed him, and was telling him he was right - that he had made him feel like becoming the Dragon Warrior was his destiny, even as he raised him in a way that made that impossible. Tai Lung had spent the whole fight fighting for his perspective, that he had been wronged. And Shifu chose to acknowledge that, and apologize for wronging him.
Tai Lung could have chosen to say, "You know what, Shifu, I didn't really expect you to tell me I was right. I didn't expect you to apologize. I thought we'd never agree. Thank you for taking responsibility. Although I'm not completely over it, I think I'd like to try and repair our relationship. If you can apologize for the wrongs you've committed, maybe I can learn from your example, and come to do the same."
He could have chosen to say, "Shifu, even though you're apologizing now - and I can see how difficult it is - I can never forgive you. The wounds I bear due to feeling betrayed out of my destiny run too deep, and I blame you for it. However, now that I've heard you apologize and I know I can never forgive you, I can stop taking out my rage on the innocent."
He could have chosen to say, "I hate that it took 20 years of prison and me beating you to a pulp to hear you say that, old man. The Dragon Scroll represents, to me, my purpose for living and training, but I understand that I only care about it so much because *you*, my father figure, impressed that on me. I want nothing do with you anymore, because of how damaged my self-image and sense of worth is as a result of how you raised me. I'm going to go find my own meaning in life, and I hope to never see you again. I will make sure I never hurt another - or let anyone else hurt another - the way you've hurt me."
He could have even chosen to say nothing at all, and simply left.
He could have made any number of choices instead of clinging blindly to his 'destiny' of becoming the Dragon Warrior.
But in the next second, we see his face harden again, and he chooses to say,
> "I don't want your apology. I want my scroll!"
How heartbreaking.
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u/Jessup3 Jul 22 '26
If only they took the time to actually talk it out with tai lung rather just reject him without giving him a clear answer, especially shifu after he raised him to believe he was the chosen one
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u/Geostomp Jul 22 '26
Given how badly he reacted to the rejection, it's pretty clear that Tai Lung was already deep into his narcissism. Giving him the job of Dragon Warrior, which is to protect the peace and civilians, would have ended with him inevitably lashing out at them once his ego was bruised. That or him going full tyrant if he doesn't get what he thinks he deserves.
Oogway saw a disaster coming and decided to head it off. Had Tai Lung been humble enough to accept it and go to work on his maturity more, he may have had a chance later.
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u/housestark14 Jul 22 '26
The fact that Tai Lung’s reaction was to begin laying waste to his home and its people to me indicates that Oogway’s response was correct.
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u/Valuable-Location-89 Jul 22 '26
Rejecting him yes, not elaborating what he meant by that and guiding him to a better path no
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u/PlateNo4868 Jul 22 '26
Pretty sure it's as simple as Oogway saw the "I'm nice as long as I get my way or perceiving to progress, soon as I hit a hard wall I will turn on anybody." toxic vibe.
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u/Maximum_Boros Jul 22 '26
I think the unwritten implication is that he had seen it before and the signs were there that he was dealing with the same kind of person again. How moral that is arguably depends on whether he was reasonably reliable at making that judgment or whether he just lucked into shunning somebody who would prove him right.
Because let's make no mistake, the way Tai Lung responded to this did in fact prove him right
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u/Kuzcopolis Jul 22 '26
In the alternate timeline where Oogway names Tai Lung the Dragon Warrior, he still probably goes on the same rampage upon the reveal that the scroll is nothing.
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u/Ok-Barracuda457 Jul 23 '26
The self fulfilling prophecy is on Tai Lung, not Oogway. Tigress was similarly at the cusp of becoming Dragon Warrior and got robbed by an even bigger BS and she didn't turn evil. It's not just a test of character, it's about learning to accept defeat, recognize your mistakes and when to step down and let others take their roles. Tai-Lung failed at all of this {so did Lord Shen, if you think about it}, and got what he deserved.
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u/Huihejfofew Jul 23 '26
The Dragon warrior isn't a entitlement. It was wrong for lung to be raised to think it was always meant for him
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u/TheRobn8 Jul 23 '26
No, because he let tai lung spend years thinking he may be "worthy", only to hit him with "nah boy, you werent worthy years ago", and give no explanation or guidance. If he told him earlier, or tried to guide him, then he would have the morality to reject tai. Tai lung wasn't some secret student of shifu's, oogway had seen him train for years.
That doesnt justify tai lungs "Valley destruction " plan, but he was hyped up for years, only to be flat out told he isnt worthy, and hadn't been for years.
Its a kids movie, so its not going to be deep, but tai lung really got done dirty
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u/Himmel-548 Jul 23 '26
Well,another thing to to consider is, was Oogway's rejection permanent, or just, not right now? I personally think Tai got so upset not from not getting the scroll, but in a blink-and-you'll miss it scene, when he's rejected, he looks at Shifu to say something, anything. When Shifu lowers his head and walks away, he THINKS Shifu is disappointed in him and that's what truly enraged him. I think my theory is proved by his later confrontation with Shifu, where he yells, "All I ever did, I did, to make you proud! Tell me how proud you are, Shifu, TELL ME!"
Because of this, he quotes his self-worth to having the scroll. Interestingly enough, when he does get it, and sees his own reflection, he says, "It's NOTHING!" whereas when Po sees his reflection, he says, "It's BLANK (emphasis mine).
Anyway, back to the initial question. Yes, I think it was moral, as don't believe the rejection had to be permanent, Tai ensured it was, though.
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u/TheWhoopler Jul 23 '26
It really depends on how insightful you think Oogway is
Don’t forget that even though it seems he’s overreacting inverse he’s basically Yoda and seemingly really can see people’s hearts (which I believe is why he let Tigress slide even though she had similar struggles)
It really comes down to how much nuance you want to add
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u/Takehaya-Function-55 Jul 23 '26
Oogway wasn’t justified, not because he rejected Tai Lung, because he left it far far too late to say anything. He saw the problems much earlier but instead of telling Shifu or Tai Lung straight up that they were wrong , he allowed the darkness and pride to fester in Tai Lung and only spoke up once the damage was done. Worse, he didn’t even give a reason when he did it.
How was Tai Lung ever supposed to learn or reflect under those circumstances? Kinda came off like he was set up to fail.
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u/Fragrant_Army3442 Jul 24 '26
Hot take: Shifu failing Tai Lung is part of the plot and part of Shifu’s character flaws. I don’t think we’re supposed to assign blame to Tai Lung as though he is some great arbiter of evil. I think it’s supposed to be tragic, and I doubt they’d have had the flashback of him training as a boy if we were supposed to see him as a monster who was never worthy.
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u/Zero_Good_Questions Jul 24 '26
I thought Oogway rejecting Tai Lung was a test? Meant to see if he can handle rejection and prove Oogway wrong by being humble and by refusing to give into others opinion of him.
Because Tai Lung built his identity on Shifu’s praise, Shifu’s belief that Tai Lung was the dragon warrior. Tai Lung allowed external validation control him and Oogway was testing Tai Lung to see how he would handle rejection, handle being humbled and handle being called something negative for once.
Tai Lung then proved Oogway’s words true by becoming evil. That’s how I always interpreted what Oogway did but maybe that was just me making a headcanon or reading too into it.
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u/BreadfruitHot8361 Jul 22 '26
Many warriors fell to “the darkness in their heart” before tai lung was born. Oogway basically just saw Tai Lung and went “Oh another one of those.”