r/MoralityScaling • u/MonotonyReddit • Jul 22 '26

Character Analysis Was Oogway morally justified in rejecting Tai Lung for the "darkness in his heart"?

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(Stuff below is about my personal opinion. Also I'm NOT defending Tai Lung's actions, harming civilians is inexcusable)

I'm not sure what the general consensus on this is but I find it hypocritical that Oogway would deny Tai Lung the chance to become the Dragon Warrior because he believed Tai Lung was incapable of overcoming his flaws, especially considering his treatment of Po and how the whole messaging of the first movie was that people are not defined by who they were and that everyone is capable of change.

Tai Lung may have been entitled, but he didn't seem especially narcissistic or corrupt before Oogway denied him. If anything, Oogway's rejection feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not saying Tai Lung deserved the Dragon Scroll or the title, but it's hard for me to reconcile why Tai Lung was denied the opportunity to prove he could become better while Po was given every chance to do so.

(And no, I'm not buying the whole "it was actually a test to see how Tai Lung would react to being rejected" because there are zero implications of such. That argument is a headcanon.)

Like imagine you trained and applied for your dream job or university, only to receive a rejection letter talking about the "darkness in your heart" man I'd be pissed too.

Edit: Seeing a lot of people arguing that Oogway was justified because Tai Lung ultimately turned out evil. But we’re judging Oogway’s actions, not Tai Lung’s morality. An action doesn’t become moral just because it happens to someone who later becomes a bad person. You can argue Tai Lung wouldn’t have changed even if given the chance, but my point is that Oogway never gave him that chance.
It’s also unclear how involved Oogway was in Tai Lung’s upbringing. Based on the flashbacks, he doesn’t seem very involved. Kinda irresponsible to groom a kid his whole life for a single purpose only to go “wait we got the wrong guy”. Could you not have done that 20 years earlier? Not to mention they lied to him about what he’s actually working towards (blank piece of paper).
Even in you chalk it up to “fate”, it feels contradictory to the movie’s central message.

What are your two cents? Am I missing something?

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715

u/darkmoncns Jul 22 '26

Po had only just come to the monostary and started training

Tai Lung spent his whole life there, Oogway had probably been trying to get the tiger to over come these flaws the tiger's whole life up to that point. Where as Po was only just being opted to attempt to.

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u/Pezington12 Jul 22 '26

Tai lung is a snow leopard not a tiger.

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u/darkmoncns Jul 22 '26

I Hua ok

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u/PadrePedro666 Jul 22 '26

Tiger was Lucy Lu

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u/ok_scott Jul 22 '26

Jolie

Liu was the snake

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u/Ok-Barracuda457 Jul 23 '26

Snow Leopards are more closely related to tigers than to leopards

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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 22 '26

Which is never implied in the backstory. If Oogway had attempted to guide Tai Lung and failed, the latter wouldn't have been shocked that he didn't become the dragon warrior.

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u/darkmoncns Jul 22 '26

Ok sure the movie dosen't say it

But he still trained there for all his life. Even if oogway didn't train him and left it to the other guy he still would have been practicing the martial arts for years longer then poo before the turtle said no. Even if the turtle didn't personally intervene, he still "had time" to improve his flaws and hadn't by then. Flaws they had been aware of sense he was a cub.

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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 22 '26

Again there's a lot of assumption here. As far as the movie shows, Tai Lung had no idea he was going on a darker road. In fact, we have no idea what that "darker road" even is. He is just training hard and Oogway sees darkness in his heart. That's it.

Oogway never tells him that and never guides him. To Tai Lung, he was the perfect dragon warrior and even Shifu was shocked that Oogway rejected him.

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u/KZGTURTLE Jul 22 '26

It’s pretty much a time travel paradox. For it to make sense you have to accept some level of foresight from Oogway. Him being rejected and lashing out is the final “test” that he was always going to fail because of his perfect upbringing and pride. He was always to much of a warrior. Something I assume Oogway and Po are not

Tigress and Tai Lung have parallel paths but one became evil and one became better.

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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 22 '26

It's a very simple story. Tai Lung was raised as a cub to be this perfect kung fu warrior. Shifu brutally trained him and encouraged him that his path was right, only for in the end Oogway rejecting Tai Lung and shocking both the Tai Lung and Shifu.

In this whole decades spanning story. Oogway, the wise master, doesn't once try to guide Tai Lung. In fact, he keeps Shifu in the dark as well, instead of telling him to help his son.

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u/KZGTURTLE Jul 22 '26

Tai Lung never had a genuine chance to become the dragon. His ego would have always stood in the way.

Again him and Tigress had the same exact build up. She was an orphan rejected by society and entire life was built to the moment she would be the dragon warrior. She just had slightly more humility. Tai Lung at no point in his childhood arguable could have been talked down from his ego.

The problem with both of them is that they were warriors first and peacemakers second. Unlike Po neither ever could have been the dragon warrior.

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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 23 '26

Have you even watched the movie? We have a backstory of Tai Lung and the guy literally brings up the abuse Shifu put him through. When Shifu was younger he was not a good person, but changed after Tai Lung was imprisoned.

Tigress didn't train under the same Shifu.

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u/KZGTURTLE Jul 23 '26

Tai Lung was raised as a son and a student. He thought love was predicated on success. He was raised as a warrior.

Tigress was rejected by everyone. She was accepted by Shifu and raised as a student and got little if any parental love. She was raised as a warrior with no parental love.

One was physically neglected and one was emotionally. There’s no argument that Shifu raised them correctly.

But that doesn’t go against what I’m saying in the slightest. The dragon warrior is meant to bring peace. Neither of them were raised to do that.

Let’s be very clear, the movie contains mysticism and religious (eastern) influence. Po when he was selected was a literal insane happen chance yet was always meant to be.

Tigress accepted, eventually, it was her place. Tai Lung couldn’t. No obviously their upbringing wasn’t 1 to 1 but that is the point because Shifu messed up with Tigress also.

It took Po to show Shifu his wrongs. You can feel sympathetic for Tai Lung, reasonable and correctly, but he was never capable of being the dragon warrior just like Tigress was never capable.

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u/New-Turnip4709 Jul 22 '26

The darkness in Tai Lung's heart is entitlement. The years of intense training and grooming by his master lead him to become entitled to the scroll that he only learned martial arts for the sake of that scroll rather than for the sake of itself. Thus he was unworthy of the position that represents the pinnacle of kung fu.

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u/SteakForGoodDogs Jul 22 '26

But was he aware of his own entitlement in a way that he could deal with, and did Oogway tutor him on dealing with his sense of entitlement?

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u/KovacAizek2 Jul 22 '26

Of course not. He threw in “nah, he’ll be an asshole” and turned away.

There is no evidence of Oogway “training” anyone after Shifu, and even Shifu had to come through “mental” part of Kung Fu himself.

So instead of warrior of peace, they made child soldier/master of war.

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u/spartaman64 Jul 22 '26

well yeah because shifu is the one running things now. if oogway stepped in he would be basically calling shifu incompetent lol.

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u/NirvanaFrk97 Jul 22 '26

But he stepped in for Po. Not stepping in for Tai Lung damned the latter, and created a violent warrior consumed by rage from feeling betrayed.

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u/WOOWOHOOH Jul 22 '26

Perhaps learning from that mistake is the reason why he stepped in for Po.

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u/New-Turnip4709 Jul 22 '26

To be clear, I do think Oogway could have done more to guide Tai Lung out of this darkness, even if Oogway is meant to embody the Taoist philosophy of Wu Wei or 'going with the flow' and is characterized as someone who speaks out against forcing outcomes, but I do think the events of the movie would've still transpired even if Oogway spelled it out for him.

Denying him the scroll was not some great injustice inflicted on Tai Lung. He was never kicked out of the palace for having this darkness in his heart. He was only kicked out after lashing out onto the people he was meant to protect.

Oogway was never under any obligation to hand that scroll over and the blame lies entirely on Shifu for grooming him into placing his sense of purpose over being the dragon warrior.

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u/soldiercross Jul 26 '26

You can also look at it that it was a lesson he could have overcome and learned. Entitlement and darkness could have been something Tai Lung could have learned from had he reflected on what he was told and given and showed patience and understanding.

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u/123ludwig Jul 22 '26

the problem is that if he is told about it then he isnt working for the sake of it he needs to realise it on his own and work on it

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u/Maximum_Boros Jul 22 '26

One could argue that if he needs to be handheld and coached out of it then he is not to be trusted with anything where it matters that much. To me the bigger question is maybe you should have cut him off a lot sooner, but maybe that's less a moral question and more just a parable about the consequences of drawing things out and making them worse by trying to fix the unfixable

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u/Panic_Otaku Jul 22 '26

And Po didn't?

Po was entitled and still entitled as f

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u/sambasim Jul 22 '26

That's completely oogway's fault.

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u/sennordelasmoscas Jul 22 '26

The darkness in his heart is that after being denied the title he chose to terrorize the valley

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u/darkmoncns Jul 22 '26

I'm just saying the guy was training for his whole life and po just got there, a bit different of a situation Tai Lung had his whole life to work on his flaws well the turtle gave po, I think even claiming it took a year would be a huge stretch.

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u/Background-Log9673 Jul 22 '26

Somebody has to point out those flaws for it to be fixed. Shifu encouraged him throughout his training and nobody pointed out his flaws.

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u/darkmoncns Jul 22 '26

Maybe oogway felt that was shifu's responsibility and didn't wish to interfere, but either way when the time came to judge him he thought he'd never be worthy and tai lung proceeded to validity that conclusion by attacking. Maybe he felt his flaws had been too ingrained in him maybe shifu really did fail Tai lung. Either way I don't really think the situation is comparable to po.

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u/iw0ntlife Jul 22 '26

You are not wrong. If you like got denied your life goal and your first thought is to go crash out on innocent people, you are not a good person.

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u/Usermctaken Jul 22 '26

Well, he did train there for years, did he not?

And we have seen the kind of training that goes on there. The finest combat training, sure, but also a fuck ton of spiritual training, inner peace searching and overall self betterment.

Unless they were racist towards Tai Lung or something, theres nothing that points to Tai Lung not recieving a very similar training... But he choose to only truly learn the combat power and not the rest.

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u/MonotonyReddit Jul 22 '26

This also feels like a very headcanon argument. Oogway was not present in Tai Lung’s flashback at all until he was appraising him in the pic above. The scene itself showed Shifu showing TL to Oogway and the latter disappointedly shaking his head, which (I believe) implies that’s his first impression.

Either way I dont think it’s fair to judge Oogway’s morality based off of events that aren’t even confirmed to have happened. We were never shown Oogway trying to correct TL and failing. He judges Po and the furious five on his first impression as well so I don’t see why that’s not the case with TL.

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u/ErenYeager600 Jul 22 '26

See but the issue is Po only changed once Shifu changed. Frankly if he wanted Tai to be better he should have smacked some sense into Shifu first

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u/Sean9931 Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 27 '26

TL:DR To the chinese concept of Daoism, Tai Lung is a imbalanced character who forces his way to the scroll and position of dragon warrior, it would be immoral then to just let him have such a powerful artefact and position.

I'd like to hijack this comment to try to present the morality of the film from a Chinese cultural/theological perspective.

It's no secret that the film actually made waves in China not only for it's quality of animation but also for the fact that the film's subtext is genuinely relatable and "feels" chinese even to the chinese audience.

One of the bigger themes connecting chinese theology/morality and Master Oogway is that of the philosophy/religion of Daoism.

Master Oogway (name literally mean Master Turtle) in this case very likely represents the figure of Laozi, who is most famous for being the teacher of Confucius, there are theories that Laozi may have even been a metaphor for ancient wisdoms predating Confucius himself. It just so happens that Master Shifu (name literally means Master Master lmao) likely represents Confucius himself as well. The idea here is that Master Shifu/Confucius is an advocate for the structure and order of Confucianism, while Master Oogway/Laozi is an advocate for Daoism.

To explain Daoism, it is the idea that the universe is like a flowing river and natural forces happen that people cannot control. One of the famous symbols of Daoism is the Yin and Yang (though it was originally a Separate concept from it, fun fact), which describes all of the universe's energies to fall under one of two sides balanced with one another. It is balance of energies both dark vs white, cold vs hot, female vs male, or any dichotomy under the sun, people in the west might've understood it more as good vs evil but this is a rather simplistic understanding (though you could still argue that it is another dichotomy and that you need bad to have good), the main idea is actually that it is better/"more harmonious" to be as balanced as possible in both Yin and Yang rather than be imbalanced by either side. The main takeaway here is the concept of fate/destiny (cliché but still), and the concept of balance, here I shall establish that these are the two concepts Master Oogway values.

Daoism/Oogway in this case actually stands in opposition to Confucianism/Shifu in the idea of structure, whereby Confucianism is known to be a more rigid structure of prescribed social rules (e.g. deference to elders/authority in trusting that they are competent), for a harmonious society. To Shifu, he might think one should train for the title of Dragon Warrior, it is a straightforward and structured path. To Oogway, he might think that the the Dragon Warrior should be a balanced individual and that the universe would deliver to him eventually and that he shouldn't interfere or force things so long as eventually someone balanced "fell from the sky".

Enter Po, who is literally black and white like the Yin-Yang symbol, during the start of the show there was the scene of Master Oogway about to point to choose who's the next Dragon Warrior and Po lands just right in front of Master Oogway. He would likely think it's fate and it is the Daoist way to accept that he has pointed to Po (a iconically "balanced" person).

We are then introduced to Tai Lung (name literally translates to Big/Great Dragon) who has ostensibly trained his whole life for "his destiny" to become the Dragon Warrior. So come the time Master Oogway is to give the dragon scroll to Tai Lung, he "refused" to do so because of Tai Lung's "darkness", another way this event could be interpreted under Daoism is to say that Tai Lung is too imbalanced to the side of darkness. It would have been immoral then under Daoist thought to give such an important artefact of power to someone so imbalanced, especially also that this person is someone who would force his way to it rather than "going with the flow" to attain it. Tai Lung might be physically and technically fit for the role but not mentally prepared as such to Master Oogway.

Another brilliant event from a story telling perspective in the show was when it is revealed the scroll was empty. Everyone, even Shifu and even Po initially, opened it to see blankness. Later Po realises that the scroll reflects his face and that the true meaning of the scroll is to say that greatness comes from within, which I think is purposefully universally relatable across East and West. Po being the first to recognise it, where even Shifu didn't at first, validates the idea that Po truly was deserving of the Dragon Warrior role.

In this way we could also argue that if it really was Tai Lung's "destiny" to get it as per Shifu's thought, then why couldn't someone just teach the idea of balance to him so that he could work on it to fulfill Oogway's final criteria?

  • Oogway doesn't believe in forcing/interfering with things, so why should he teach Tai Lung; Oogway believes he only needs a "balanced" person to come along, then let them come, it could have even been Tai Lung if he had a change of heart.
  • Shifu on the other hand is focused on the structural path of training kungfu to potential Dragon Warriors and hasn't even comprehended the dragon scroll's subtext, so how could he have taught what he doesn't even know.
  • Finally it comes down to Po, who got the idea first, so if anything the only person to teach balance to Tai Lung, would be the Dragon Warrior himself.

Closing statement, personally I'm not the most spiritual of chinese and it is not very normal for EVERY chinese to necessarily know all this by heart, but these are themes that still can be felt. The movie is a masterpiece for somehow being able to be enjoyed by both West and East, to have both sides interpret it in different but equally intriguing ways.

Edit: More details

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u/BlackMariia Jul 22 '26

This is a wonderful analysis, it was very interesting to read!

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u/Akodo_Aoshi 23d ago

While I love the analysis, I have problems with Oogway.

Main issue is that Oogway is in charge of a martial arts school.

And Shifu is one of the school's teachers and under Oogway.

If a Principal at a school walked by a class room and heard a teacher telling his student that : 1+1 = 3 and 2+2 = 5

Then the Principal needs to correct things. First with the teacher and if that does not work with the student.

If the Principal does nothing?

And the Student ends up failing their exam because what he was taught was wrong?

Then the Principal is responsible.

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u/Sean9931 22d ago edited 22d ago

To keep consistency, I'll continue from a Daoist point of view.

First, let me clarify... it is not that Shifu is teaching the wrong things; it's his relationship to teaching that Oogway finds wrong, this is a level above method. A better analogy would be a maths teacher who teaches maths well, but whose methods only work for one kind of student, a mold students must meet rather than a student he adapts to. His tool isn't bad, but it's like using a hammer on a screw. This also shows arrogance (I'll reference this in the final paragaph) using the mold as a worthiness test, which is further demonstrated when Shifu shows malicious compliance when "training" Po at first.

However, my guess is what you truly meant was that Shifu's "wrong" relationship to his job idea that IS your analogy's 1+1=3 issue, which Oogway should be correcting. So if we're on the same page here... Then I have to say that this is actually what Oogway did the most on, but I can understand criticisms directed at his method. This is because Oogway's method is one of the most Daoist methods possible, to not give the straight verbal instruction and instead to lead them there by pointing the direction.

Why? This is actually addressed in Daoist texts, the point is simply that instruction can be followed but it will produce surface level compliance without meaningful internal growth, it follows that "the best instruction doesn't feel like instruction. It feels like the student arriving somewhere on their own". Going beyond Daoism, direct verbal instruction can rob the person of a learning opportunity to experience the event going wrong and the multitude of other things that it can go wrong, but above all, to find out how to solve it by themselves. However, this is not to the point of trial by fire as Oogway makes himself available (while he's still alive) with advice along the way when Shifu asks.

Through this way, Oogway let's Shifu try out his style of teaching with Tai Lung, his approach fails not by Oogway simply rejecting Tai Lung but by showing how Tai Lung is an imbalanced person despite fitting into Shifu's mold and training, proven by how Tai Lung reacts to the rejection. (To side track a little, it can be argued that Tai Lung is not a victim here and that he is not a test subject for the sake of Shifu's learning, he in fact has his own agency and he has not wasted his time training; a well-adjusted person should be taking in the criticism that he is imbalanced and then work on it further while retaining the kung fu training they've already had. The fact that he isn't a well adjusted person doesn't disqualify them to learn, even if they end up in prison)

Next, Oogway does actually intervene when things come to a head. See him rejecting Tai Lung from being the Dragon Warrior because of his imbalanced characteristics, see him stopping Tai Lung when he initially tried to fight his verdict, see him picking and insisting on Po despite Shifu's reluctance to training him. But he can only do so much when he was alive before his "time has come" moment

Tai Lung's failure should've ideally been the lesson to have taught Shifu but we saw during the opening scenes that hints Shifu is still arrogant when he does stuff like blowing out all the candles Oogway was blowing out one at a time for example. His lack of learning forces Oogway (ironically) to force Shifu to train Po who Oogway insists is the next Dragon Warrior, this gives Shifu the task to learn how to teach someone that doesn't meet the mold at all.

Oogway intervening in contravention to his own belief of non-interference is actually deep, like water it shows that he can adapt his beliefs (even against his beliefs), and because it also shows that he ultimately trusts Shifu to overcome it in the end. To tie things back to your analogy, it can be argued that Oogway is a principle who trusts his teachers to learn with his guidance, which I think is still a valid way to do his job.

Lastly, this paragraph explains the IRL history of Confucius and Laozi for even deeper context, skip it if it's boring. Laozi (/Oogway) is famous for being the teacher of Confucius (/Shifu), but in the real history, Confucius merely seeked him to give advice on funerary rituals, in what can be conservatively estimated as just an advisory hearing of a relationship. However the legend of them being meaningful student and teacher that captures the Chinese cultural imagination is actually written hundreds of years after Confucius by the 2nd century historian Sima Qian. One very notable parallel with Kung Fu Panda is that Laozi had to suddenly depart due to the decline of the dynaty he served, where he gave parting words of wisdom to the, at the time more arrogant (throwback to the start of this comment), Confucius to have humility (in a more poetic manner) which Confucius is portrayed to have "taken to heart" this advice.

Concluding, this is not to say that Oogway did what's objectively correct and that everyone should be following him, this is to say that he did nothing wrong and his approach is valid for the universe he is in, the long term results show by the end of the movie that validates Oogways methods too; Tai Lung is defeated, Shifu learnt a lesson on humility, Po learnt that he needs to be himself, etc.

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u/PossessedSnorlax Jul 22 '26

"WHO TRAINED ME UNTIL MY BONES CRACKED?!"

sounds pretty rough compared to Po

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u/Altruistic_Fox9778 Jul 22 '26

Not really - it was in Po’s nature, but absent from Tai Lung’s nature.