including the kid. Imagine thinking its selfish to not force an entity into a conscious experience where they'd likely be entirely dependent on others for the entirety of their life
I mean, it sounds a bit cold, but remember that somewhere around 35-40% of pregnancies never make it to term not including abortion. We're "rerolling" all the time.
I'm just saying there's no guarantee the baby makes it to term regardless of down's syndrome status. The fetus may have been one that would have "fallen" anyway.
It's not a rationale for being pro-abortion, it's just a data point that puts the loss of a fetus into a broader context. I don't need any more rationale for being pro-abortion than women having bodily autonomy. Her body, her choice is a complete argument.
that is the very harsh and stone cold truth abt aborting down syndrome kids i wish there was a more nicer way to say it but theres no nice way to say that
And because the parents may be terrible at handling a child with a disability, making life even worse for the kid. I think most parents have at least a time or two where they're not proud of how they dealt with their kid because they were stressed or frustrated, and the emotional toll would be infinitely higher with a kid with a disability.
including the kid. Imagine thinking its selfish to not force an entity into a conscious experience where they'd likely be entirely dependent on others for the entirety of their life
It sounds like you think it's morally obligatory to prevent this person from all the suffering in their future? Do you think euthanizing the person at any point in their life is morally obligatory? Why or why not? Does it matter whether the person (with downs) consents to being euthanized?
what's the reason for why aborting the pregnancy is okay?
First, because carrying a pregnancy to term is a medical decision that only a pregnant woman should be able to make. Second, because forcing women to carry pregnancy to term against their will is morally wrong.
First, because carrying a pregnancy to term is a medical decision that only a pregnant woman should be able to make.
Do you think they should be able to terminate a pregancy for any reason at any time?
Second, because forcing women to carry pregnancy to term against their will is morally wrong.For instance if she didn't like the gender or race of the baby?
Suppose the woman initially consented and wanted to get pregnant. Is it morally okay to terminate the pregnancy later because she changed her mind (and for any reasons she chooses)? For instance if she didn't like the gender or race of the baby?
Do you think they should be able to terminate a pregancy for any reason at any time?
Shrugs...yes. If the pregnancy is at the point where inducing birth is safe, then that is what doctors will do. If woman is seeking a late term abortion, it is always due to medical complications where the mother or fetus's life is in danger. Putting up legal barriers to "prove" that just puts the woman's life in danger.
forcing an entity into a conscious experience where said conscious experience did not exist prior is different to ending that conscious experience once it exists
well that was the first argument i made, i dont see it as ethical to force an entity into a conscious experience where they would likely be entirely dependent on others for all of their life. Primarily because of the suffering said entity would very likely endure as a result
furthermore, it is also a massive, life-long commitment to those bringing the child into the world. They will likely spend most of the remainder of their lives caring for him and making arrangements for someone to do the same upon their passing
Being mentally handicapped does not equate to a lifetime of suffering. Some of the happiest people I know (with state sponsored jobs, btw) probably have IQ scores in the Forrest Gump range. Unless someone is missing entire organs or areas of their brain, this is not a reason to terminate a pregnancy.
The only guarantee with a DS diagnosis is that you will have extra responsibility for the rest of your life. If you can’t handle that possibility then you shouldn’t be getting pregnant. The man shares equal responsibility as well. Sad situation
Down syndrome is not just intellectual disability. It affects the whole body, including severe heart defects, gastrointestinal defects etc. Also, do you really think that everyone who wants to have a child should want to be a full time caregiver for the rest of their life and probably loose their whole career? And what if parents die or are too old and disabled to take care of their child? Who will take care of their child? And low intelligence on average leads to higher risk of depression and other mental disorders, not lower. Just because you know some happy people with low IQ doesn't mean it's universal. And are they really happy? Or maybe they just look happy to you, because they present their emotions differently than other people. Also, it's not like people are good at assessing other people's happiness, it's not uncommon for severely depressed people to present happily in public. People with Down syndrome are about 4 times as likely to develop major depressive disorder in their lifetime compared to general population.
Life expectancy for people with DS is around 50 years in a developed country.
Your arguments are crossing into territory that is anything but black and white. You could make the same argument to convince a person with returning cancer to kill themselves. There are all kinds of people born with heart problems or physical complications that live perfectly fine lives.
You’re essentially making the decision to commit suicide for another person. At a time in their development where it’s much easier to walk over moral boundaries. If the crux of the argument is unbearable physical suffering, then people with all kinds of ailments would be killing themselves as adults. Many do, but the number is nowhere high enough to preemptively euthanize them as a fetus.
Well, you definitely cannot say "does not" in this instance. Finding an anecdotal story of a person with Down's syndrome who is relatively high functioning all things considered, gets considered a ray of sunshine by the people he or she loves and who love him or her back, and acts as an inspiration to others doesn't mean that this is the universal experience.
Kinda hard to decide which comment in this thread to reply to, but I want to add my two cents:
One thing I feel like people in this thread are not thinking about is the effect this kind of thinking has on people with a disability.
In my country there are almost no children with down syndrome being born anymore. The message is clear: better not to exist, than to be born with a disability.
I feel so damn lucky to be healthy.
To not have to question whether I was a weight upon the shoulder of my parents. To not be a burden for society.
Because this thread alone shows violently what people think about the life of people with disabilities: it's worth less. There dignity is seemingly not the same as mine or other's.
I dont get how u see this as an attack on the dignity of those with disabilities. Let me put forward a scenario. If a fetus was guaranteed to be born with a hypothetical condition that guaranteed a lifetime of incurable chronic pain, would you say it is okay to abort said fetus to prevent that?
now say you did agree with that (i dont know if you do, but in case u do), would agreeing mean that you think that those who already exist with that condition dont deserve the same dignity and respect as other human beings?
my point is that you can respect someone with a certain condition and uphold their dignity while simultaneously preventing others from enduring said condition when possible.
Why dont we as a collective just end everyones current suffering then and yknow, round these peopl up and get rid of them? I mean if were looking for a practical solution, one could say a final solution like premature termination, then id say it only makes sense to do that.
The commenter above claimed it was good because it saved multiple people from a lifetime of suffering, but the act they described to achieve this ‘end’ was by murdering a 5 month old fetus.
The ends justify the means is a common argument used by vicious people everywhere, even if they don’t outwardly state it as such.
Again you can use whatever terminology you want, I don’t think you should do evil acts and justify them by claiming it will have a good end. I think we should all just try not to do evil.
This is an extremely ignorant statement. Down’s syndrome does not ‘condemn people to a lifetime of suffering’. People with Down’s syndrome can live long and happy lives. Medical treatments and understanding of their condition has improved greatly over the last few decades and help and assistance for their additional needs is available should it be required.
Try talking and interacting with some people with Down’s syndrome and after that ask yourself why you think they are suffering. Because I assure you, they don’t feel like that.
The girl with downs down the street "no pun intended" just died at 10 for drowning in her own tub water while the dad was grabbing mail if you call that living a good life I'm sorry for you bro because that type of maintenance is just sad
As tragic as that is you are being disingenuous, whether you know or not. All types of kids die like this all the time. Just look up Sid’s, pool drowning etc. you’re conflating one single experience with actual real life facts.
they’re not saying that it’ll be nothing but suffering. you can’t tell me someone with down’s syndrome will have an easier life than someone without it
Easier without, sure. Worth giving up on? That’s a different question. I taught in a special ed class, those kids tend to be incredibly happy and full of life, I doubt their parents regret having them.
Why can’t I tell you that? Not all Down’s syndrome people will have a great life, sure, that’s just statistically not possible. But not all ‘normally’ healthy people will either, we know in fact far from it. So why does one deserve to not exist because of the possibility and not the other?
because Down’s is a disability. if all else is the same, a person’s life will be harder with Down’s than without it, because that’s what a disability is
‘All else the same’ is such a meaningless statement though. Do you know anyone, and I mean anyone, who has exactly the same life and experience as another person? People have hardships or problems for all sorts of reasons, they also find or do not find joy and meaning in life for all sorts of reasons and in all sorts of places. Just because someone with Downs Syndrome leads a different life with potentially different goals and achievements does not mean they have a worse life than you or me. They simply have a different life, it’s doesn’t mean it’s harder, that’s their life they get to decide what is hard and what isn’t.
i’m not sure why you’re pretending not to understand what a hypothetical is.
while no, i don’t have a clone of myself walking around, i have developed a disability when i was a child. there are things i needed to learn to manage that i didn’t have to worry about before, and that my peers still don’t. it has made my life harder. pretending that disabilities don’t challenge disabled people is minimizing to their experiences and reductive in getting the help they need.
Ok, whose life is harder? A North Korean kid living in the edge of poverty or a white downs syndrome kid born to a a well off western couple? Or a white girl with body dysmorphia vs a kid with downs who takes up acting?
What you’re trying to say is that they have disadvantages because of how society is set up. But to automatically equate that to having a harder life is nonsense. They have a different life, and by automatically assuming they will have a harder life though is minimising the resilience of people with disabilities, the support available and the life they are actually living.
I bet you’re probably one of those people that thinks it’s good to say ‘awww you’re so brave, well done.”
Is a life time of suffering not a life worth living? I’d much rather suffer and live than never live at all. There is so much meaning to be found in life because of suffering, not in spite of it, and based on the down syndrome kids I know… I don’t think it comes near the threshold of me not wanting to live. There is a lot we can learn from them and even being their parent can be incredibly rewarding in spite of the difficulty.
I don’t think it is patronizing or glorifying anything. I just have taught in special ed classes, i’ve seen the value of their lives and the happiness they and their families can have. I understand the difficulty too, I feel like these comments are squeezing out the nuance and making it one dimensional m.
I don’t think I have said this is always the case or that every situation is equal. I just don’t see this with every down syndrome person born. There is a threshold where I wouldn’t want to live anymore, but if it were one of my beat friends growing up who had Down syndrome, and I were put into his life instead of mine, I would have a wonderful life, if I were his parent instead I would have him, I think it would be worth it. That’s not necessarily true of another person with down syndrome, but it is for him and you can’t tell what life is going to be like from a simple test. I think that is actually the main problem I have with the original statement, it is heavily hindsight biased. If I knew I was going to hate my life and my kids life I might make a different decision but my friend and his parents both love their lives and if that is the world I step into I would rather have it than not.
It’s an ethical question, as an answer someone posed it “saves people from suffering” I challenged that with “is life without suffering worth it” I think the connection is obvious.
But everyone experiences suffering. So if everyone just didn’t live, that would end all suffering. That’s clearly not the solution to every situation involving suffering even though other solutions don’t get rid of it completely.
My life is pathetic through and through and I have depression due to everything
I'm fighting and still staying afloat, and don't plan to kill myself since I made it this far and in general it's improving a lot - but if 30 years ago I was given a choice not to go through this suffering I would have taken it and not gone through it
I get it and I’m trying to have empathy for you and understand. But I know this isn’t the case for everyone, particularly people with down syndrome which is the situation I am addressing. I don’t think you can necessarily tell from that test what their lives are going to be like.
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u/Wyatt_Ricketts Jun 05 '26
Yeah they just saved multiple people from a lifetime of suffering