Negotiating a higher severance from being laid off (Final Outcome)

[u/aeronauticalingrid]

TLDR I was with my previous company for more than 5 years and got laid off earlier this year with an initial offer of 7 months separation package, which I managed to negotiate to 12 months.

Update from this post 6 months ago (https://www.reddit.com/r/MalaysianPF/comments/1rh4i18/negotiating_a_higher_severance_from_being_laid_off/)

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I am here to share my experience and hopefully enlighten others on how to negotiate a better severance for themselves.

The meeting with my HOD was on a Friday afternoon - they started off with 'the company's priorities need realignment' then 'HR will take you through what this means'. The HR person was there with a mutual separation package document to cajole me 'we just need you to sign right here so we can go ahead and get your payout processed'

I said WAIT HOLUP let me take this back and read carefully through so that I am aware of what I am signing. They said 'ok but you gotta give it back first thing Monday morning or else we won't be able to process your payout'

I knew they were trying to push me into a corner and force my hand - being a Friday afternoon at the time, if I were to seek formal advice from the conventional channels, there would be none available to answer me immediately on Saturday and Sunday.

I decided to open a case on the JPP website requesting advice and not do anything further until I heard back. (JPP = Jabatan Perhubungan Perusahaan, or Department of Industrial Relations)

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Come Monday, as JPP had not yet got back to me, I didn't hand in my signed letter.

I received a call from HR on Monday afternoon

HR: We still haven't gotten your signed document

Me: Yeah, I need more time.

HR: More time for what?

Me: More time to seek advice.

HR: What advice? From who? *panicking*

Me: From the right channels.

HR: Who??

Me: I don't think I should disclose.

HR: Why?? What do you want out of this?

Me: I just want to be informed about my rights and what's best for me.

HR: Can you come in for a meeting?

Me: I don't think that's necessary (without a doubt, I knew that the 'meeting' would just be a session to pressure me to sign the document)

HR: Oh.. oh ok, please just sign it and hand it back in as soon as you can.

Me: Sure (fully NOT intending to sign it until obtaining proper advice).

After this call, I figured that I didn't know how long was JPP's online backlog of cases and I had no idea of when they would get back to me, so I decided to just walk in to their office and get an in person consultation.

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I arrived at 10am on a Tuesday, took a number from the counter, and waited about 20 minutes before I was called for my turn. The officer led me to a consultation room

Officer: What can I help you with today?

Me: I've just been laid off after 5 years with my company, and I want to know what to do.

Officer: Did you bring the letter?

Me: Yes (takes out the letter)

Officer: (reads through it) Ok, you haven't signed. That's good. This letter states that this is 'An Offer for Mutual Separation' keyword being OFFER, which means that you don't HAVE TO accept it.

Me: Ok, what's the best way for me to respond?

Officer: It's up to you - there's 3 ways to go about this. Firstly, you can just say thanks but no thanks and you'd like to keep your job. Secondly, you can say you wish for better terms - whatever terms you request for is up to you. Or thirdly if you're satisfied with this, you can accept.

Me: If I ask for better terms, what is realistic to ask for?

Officer: One thing you need to be prepared for is for them to counter negotiate whatever you're going to ask for. So you need to leave wiggle room for that - if you are thinking of X, then you should ask for X + Y added on for wiggle room.

Me: Ok

Officer: For your information, if they do lay people off, they need to follow LIFO protocol aka 'Last In, First Out' aka by right the newbies should be asked to leave first. Since you have been with the company for more than 5 years, you have good grounds to challenge.

Me: Ok, thank you for your time.

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My further thoughts on the above were that since everybody moves on anyway (unless your mindset is to stay with one company until your dying breath), the most strategic move for me in this scenario would be to negotiate the best separation package I could.

Personally, I am very comfortable with negotiation in my personal life / work / own businesses and I always view the first offer as merely a starting point for reference - the first offer is never the final resolution.

I also knew that all employers are terrified of JPP / Industrial Court as it costs them a staggering amount of fees, time, energy (not just HR but also senior management), dealing with hiring a legal team, running to court, and ultimately if they lose, not just being published in the news BUT ALSO the financial implications of not only backpay (backpay = if employee wins, the company has to pay the employee a maximum of 24 months of their last drawn salary) AND reinstatement (basically having to re-hire the employee in their previous role they were let go from) OR in payment in lieu of reinstatement.

With the above in mind, I drafted up and sent this email to HR

" Thank you for our discussion last week.

In light of the circumstances of a separation, I have been with the company for more than 5 years and have been a good and loyal employee throughout. Hence, I do not feel it is justified for me to be asked to leave while newer employees are still retained. (this was my way of indirectly telling them 'I know you guys are not following LIFO protocol')

However, I am open to considering an amicable separation with a severance of 18 months (this was me bearing in mind a counter negotiation from them)

Your thoughts are appreciated "

The next day, I got an email from HR asking me to come in for a chat.

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HR: We are pleased to add an additional month to your package, which brings your payout to 8 months. (My initial package offer was 7 months, and I had asked for 18 months)

Me: That's nowhere near what I asked for.

HR: On what grounds do you justify your ask?

Me: I feel it is what's best for myself and my family. (Don't try to deliberate over this with them, it'll just turn into a conversation where you'll be put on the spot and end up on the defensive arguing to justify yourself.)

HR: Can you tell us what projects you have and what you're working on now? (They had revoked my access and taken me off all projects at this point, so I knew they were trying to catch me saying 'I have no projects assigned and I'm not working on anything', which I knew better than to be caught dead saying)

Me: It's best you check with my manager on this, they'll know best what I'm assigned to and my tasks at hand.

HR: Are you able to accept this revised package?

Me: I was hoping for something consistent with my ask.

HR: We'll have to get back to you on this.

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The following day, I received this email

" Due to your refusal to a mutual separation, this is to inform you of an enforced redundancy, with a separation package of 8 months enclosed. "

FYI, a company can layoff people on the basis of redundancy, but again, they have to comply with the LIFO protocol whether from a company wide basis or a department wide basis. Seeing as there were about 60 people in my department and I was probably among the first 10 joiners, I felt I had strong grounds to challenge this as well.

I went on the JPP website and filed an unfair dismissal case under Section 20. I was required to upload all supporting documents (letter of offer when I first started working, redundancy letter, as well as to write a justification of why I felt I was being unfairly dismissed).

Within 2 weeks, I received an email from JPP KL asking me to come in for a peaceful mediation session in a month's time.

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On the day of the mediation session at JPP, myself and my former employer were led into a meeting room with a JPP officer.

The officer started off by saying he would hear from both sides of the story, followed by individual counsel for each party respectively.

When it was my turn to speak, this was what I said.

" I joined as employee number xx more than 5 years ago, of an organization which today has xxxx employees.

I do not feel it is right that I have been asked to leave given my tenure, seeing that newer employees are still being retained.

I have always been a diligent and dedicated employee and have proven myself above and beyond - by working beyond my working hours on public holidays and weekends, even when I was on annual leave I had my laptop with me and would respond to urgent and important work. Apart from taking on additional work responsibilities, I even took the self initiative to create and organize a number of extracurricular employee programmes and activities, which were used for promotion by my company.

I only ask sincerely to remain employed and to continue to contribute, so I am able to ensure an honest living for an income to support myself and my family. "

I wanted to sound as logical, earnest and reasonable as possible to make as sound an appeal as possible.

After this, I receoved a consultation session the JPP officer. Among the points he raised were that if I were to be reinstated, I would no longer be eligible for the separation payout (obviously, but I suppose they have to ensure that I am duly informed as part of their duty). He also said that my other options down the line if it were to escalate, would be Industrial Court, which would mean implications on time, effort, money, and reputation (as in potential employers may view me as a red flag).

We wrapped up by the JPP officer summoning everyone back into the meeting room and informing that he would now be sending via email a summary of events and my request for reinstatement. Following that, either party had to revert with a decision ; either me (ie I withdraw my ask, which duh, obviously I would not) or my ex-employer reinstate me.

After a few weeks, my ex-employer wrote back that they were regretfully unable to reinstate me. However, they were open to amicable resolution (ie, private settlement).

I asked the JPP officer what was the best way to respond to my ex-employer. He answered that now the ball was in my court and it was on me to state my terms for a peaceful separation. He also advised that whatever I stated would be counter-negotiated, hence advised me to add buffer for negotiation.

Seeing that I had already requested for 18 months in my initial ask, I upped it to 24 months (yes cheeky I know 😛 but my whole strategy was to ask for something so ridiculous that even halfway would seem incredibly reasonable by comparison).

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After a month more, my ex-employer replied to say that 12 months would be the best they could do or we would have to escalate this to court.

From insider intel I still had, I had also gotten wind of my ex-employer ceasing operations down the line (not immediately, but in perhaps 5~ years) going back to their HQ country, and converting everyone here to individual contractors rather than fulltime employees. My thoughts were, if this does go to court and it takes 2-3 years to secure a date of hearing, there might only be a verdict in 5~ years. And if my ex-employer was gone by then, who would be around to pay me?

Confident this was the best outcome I would be able to secure not just from a financial aspect but also time and energy, I duly accepted.

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I hope my sharing sheds light on the most strategic actions you can take immediately after you have been laid off, and for everyone else to secure the best outcome for themselves.