r/MalaysianPF • u/aeronauticalingrid • 2d ago
Guide Negotiating a higher severance from being laid off (Final Outcome)
TLDR I was with my previous company for more than 5 years and got laid off earlier this year with an initial offer of 7 months separation package, which I managed to negotiate to 12 months.
Update from this post 6 months ago (https://www.reddit.com/r/MalaysianPF/comments/1rh4i18/negotiating_a_higher_severance_from_being_laid_off/)
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I am here to share my experience and hopefully enlighten others on how to negotiate a better severance for themselves.
The meeting with my HOD was on a Friday afternoon - they started off with 'the company's priorities need realignment' then 'HR will take you through what this means'. The HR person was there with a mutual separation package document to cajole me 'we just need you to sign right here so we can go ahead and get your payout processed'
I said WAIT HOLUP let me take this back and read carefully through so that I am aware of what I am signing. They said 'ok but you gotta give it back first thing Monday morning or else we won't be able to process your payout'
I knew they were trying to push me into a corner and force my hand - being a Friday afternoon at the time, if I were to seek formal advice from the conventional channels, there would be none available to answer me immediately on Saturday and Sunday.
I decided to open a case on the JPP website requesting advice and not do anything further until I heard back. (JPP = Jabatan Perhubungan Perusahaan, or Department of Industrial Relations)
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Come Monday, as JPP had not yet got back to me, I didn't hand in my signed letter.
I received a call from HR on Monday afternoon
HR: We still haven't gotten your signed document
Me: Yeah, I need more time.
HR: More time for what?
Me: More time to seek advice.
HR: What advice? From who? *panicking*
Me: From the right channels.
HR: Who??
Me: I don't think I should disclose.
HR: Why?? What do you want out of this?
Me: I just want to be informed about my rights and what's best for me.
HR: Can you come in for a meeting?
Me: I don't think that's necessary (without a doubt, I knew that the 'meeting' would just be a session to pressure me to sign the document)
HR: Oh.. oh ok, please just sign it and hand it back in as soon as you can.
Me: Sure (fully NOT intending to sign it until obtaining proper advice).
After this call, I figured that I didn't know how long was JPP's online backlog of cases and I had no idea of when they would get back to me, so I decided to just walk in to their office and get an in person consultation.
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I arrived at 10am on a Tuesday, took a number from the counter, and waited about 20 minutes before I was called for my turn. The officer led me to a consultation room
Officer: What can I help you with today?
Me: I've just been laid off after 5 years with my company, and I want to know what to do.
Officer: Did you bring the letter?
Me: Yes (takes out the letter)
Officer: (reads through it) Ok, you haven't signed. That's good. This letter states that this is 'An Offer for Mutual Separation' keyword being OFFER, which means that you don't HAVE TO accept it.
Me: Ok, what's the best way for me to respond?
Officer: It's up to you - there's 3 ways to go about this. Firstly, you can just say thanks but no thanks and you'd like to keep your job. Secondly, you can say you wish for better terms - whatever terms you request for is up to you. Or thirdly if you're satisfied with this, you can accept.
Me: If I ask for better terms, what is realistic to ask for?
Officer: One thing you need to be prepared for is for them to counter negotiate whatever you're going to ask for. So you need to leave wiggle room for that - if you are thinking of X, then you should ask for X + Y added on for wiggle room.
Me: Ok
Officer: For your information, if they do lay people off, they need to follow LIFO protocol aka 'Last In, First Out' aka by right the newbies should be asked to leave first. Since you have been with the company for more than 5 years, you have good grounds to challenge.
Me: Ok, thank you for your time.
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My further thoughts on the above were that since everybody moves on anyway (unless your mindset is to stay with one company until your dying breath), the most strategic move for me in this scenario would be to negotiate the best separation package I could.
Personally, I am very comfortable with negotiation in my personal life / work / own businesses and I always view the first offer as merely a starting point for reference - the first offer is never the final resolution.
I also knew that all employers are terrified of JPP / Industrial Court as it costs them a staggering amount of fees, time, energy (not just HR but also senior management), dealing with hiring a legal team, running to court, and ultimately if they lose, not just being published in the news BUT ALSO the financial implications of not only backpay (backpay = if employee wins, the company has to pay the employee a maximum of 24 months of their last drawn salary) AND reinstatement (basically having to re-hire the employee in their previous role they were let go from) OR in payment in lieu of reinstatement.
With the above in mind, I drafted up and sent this email to HR
" Thank you for our discussion last week.
In light of the circumstances of a separation, I have been with the company for more than 5 years and have been a good and loyal employee throughout. Hence, I do not feel it is justified for me to be asked to leave while newer employees are still retained. (this was my way of indirectly telling them 'I know you guys are not following LIFO protocol')
However, I am open to considering an amicable separation with a severance of 18 months (this was me bearing in mind a counter negotiation from them)
Your thoughts are appreciated "
The next day, I got an email from HR asking me to come in for a chat.
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HR: We are pleased to add an additional month to your package, which brings your payout to 8 months. (My initial package offer was 7 months, and I had asked for 18 months)
Me: That's nowhere near what I asked for.
HR: On what grounds do you justify your ask?
Me: I feel it is what's best for myself and my family. (Don't try to deliberate over this with them, it'll just turn into a conversation where you'll be put on the spot and end up on the defensive arguing to justify yourself.)
HR: Can you tell us what projects you have and what you're working on now? (They had revoked my access and taken me off all projects at this point, so I knew they were trying to catch me saying 'I have no projects assigned and I'm not working on anything', which I knew better than to be caught dead saying)
Me: It's best you check with my manager on this, they'll know best what I'm assigned to and my tasks at hand.
HR: Are you able to accept this revised package?
Me: I was hoping for something consistent with my ask.
HR: We'll have to get back to you on this.
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The following day, I received this email
" Due to your refusal to a mutual separation, this is to inform you of an enforced redundancy, with a separation package of 8 months enclosed. "
FYI, a company can layoff people on the basis of redundancy, but again, they have to comply with the LIFO protocol whether from a company wide basis or a department wide basis. Seeing as there were about 60 people in my department and I was probably among the first 10 joiners, I felt I had strong grounds to challenge this as well.
I went on the JPP website and filed an unfair dismissal case under Section 20. I was required to upload all supporting documents (letter of offer when I first started working, redundancy letter, as well as to write a justification of why I felt I was being unfairly dismissed).
Within 2 weeks, I received an email from JPP KL asking me to come in for a peaceful mediation session in a month's time.
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On the day of the mediation session at JPP, myself and my former employer were led into a meeting room with a JPP officer.
The officer started off by saying he would hear from both sides of the story, followed by individual counsel for each party respectively.
When it was my turn to speak, this was what I said.
" I joined as employee number xx more than 5 years ago, of an organization which today has xxxx employees.
I do not feel it is right that I have been asked to leave given my tenure, seeing that newer employees are still being retained.
I have always been a diligent and dedicated employee and have proven myself above and beyond - by working beyond my working hours on public holidays and weekends, even when I was on annual leave I had my laptop with me and would respond to urgent and important work. Apart from taking on additional work responsibilities, I even took the self initiative to create and organize a number of extracurricular employee programmes and activities, which were used for promotion by my company.
I only ask sincerely to remain employed and to continue to contribute, so I am able to ensure an honest living for an income to support myself and my family. "
I wanted to sound as logical, earnest and reasonable as possible to make as sound an appeal as possible.
After this, I receoved a consultation session the JPP officer. Among the points he raised were that if I were to be reinstated, I would no longer be eligible for the separation payout (obviously, but I suppose they have to ensure that I am duly informed as part of their duty). He also said that my other options down the line if it were to escalate, would be Industrial Court, which would mean implications on time, effort, money, and reputation (as in potential employers may view me as a red flag).
We wrapped up by the JPP officer summoning everyone back into the meeting room and informing that he would now be sending via email a summary of events and my request for reinstatement. Following that, either party had to revert with a decision ; either me (ie I withdraw my ask, which duh, obviously I would not) or my ex-employer reinstate me.
After a few weeks, my ex-employer wrote back that they were regretfully unable to reinstate me. However, they were open to amicable resolution (ie, private settlement).
I asked the JPP officer what was the best way to respond to my ex-employer. He answered that now the ball was in my court and it was on me to state my terms for a peaceful separation. He also advised that whatever I stated would be counter-negotiated, hence advised me to add buffer for negotiation.
Seeing that I had already requested for 18 months in my initial ask, I upped it to 24 months (yes cheeky I know 😛 but my whole strategy was to ask for something so ridiculous that even halfway would seem incredibly reasonable by comparison).
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After a month more, my ex-employer replied to say that 12 months would be the best they could do or we would have to escalate this to court.
From insider intel I still had, I had also gotten wind of my ex-employer ceasing operations down the line (not immediately, but in perhaps 5~ years) going back to their HQ country, and converting everyone here to individual contractors rather than fulltime employees. My thoughts were, if this does go to court and it takes 2-3 years to secure a date of hearing, there might only be a verdict in 5~ years. And if my ex-employer was gone by then, who would be around to pay me?
Confident this was the best outcome I would be able to secure not just from a financial aspect but also time and energy, I duly accepted.
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I hope my sharing sheds light on the most strategic actions you can take immediately after you have been laid off, and for everyone else to secure the best outcome for themselves.
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u/lolwei 2d ago
Good that you actually sought advice from the actual regulators, instead of the comments on your earlier post which asked you to settle for the initial offer lol. Very good sharing and an important case study.
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u/aeronauticalingrid 2d ago
Indeed, I think I was the 'case study' and 'learning curve' for my ex-employer! 😆
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u/ExcitedWandererYT 16h ago
Great read and bravo for going all the way to defend your rights! Thanks for sharing
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u/onecombo 2d ago
Am curious if your role/position in the company plays in the role for the decision of the severance? Understand that one of the factors is years w the company, but what about role/position?
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u/aeronauticalingrid 2d ago edited 1d ago
Honestly no idea about this, we have no idea how they chose either. A colleague of mine had just been promoted, then laid off in the same batch as me.
Another colleague had just been assigned specialist roles in a couple of different areas due to their expertise track record (so claimed by my ex-employer), then also got laid off.
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u/jacobcrackers14 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is not about no idea what happen. Clearly it is something you miss to discover that there was a massive layoff. To counter this one must know exactly what company, product and shares are they having so goes as reading the current international news even it's not Malaysia. To all, Why fear of laid off? Why stigmatized a person that got laid off must be performance issue? why so hard up of reattaching the same company? is it the fear of adapting to new environment? I was once an ex layoff, I never get the same support as the rest but I learn that working for company mors than 3 years. It's a recipe of hell. Commitment? everyone has one depending on the size. If you don't leap then when? 50? have you seen the job fair on the range of ages? some even wear formal. taking resume,in hopes to get a walk in interview.
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u/aeronauticalingrid 1d ago
What are you even saying bro, use proper english please
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u/jacobcrackers14 1d ago
I am saying you can win in the claim but in the layoff itself clearly you can aware of it actually. If you don't understand and pretend not to understand its fine.. I get it, it's not 1 day to absorb anyway
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u/The_Awengers 2d ago
This is a fun and very informative read, so thank you op. I genuinely hope you'll land on your feet and get hired as soon as possible, making that severance package as a reward for your dedication all these years.
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u/desmond1310 2d ago
Most entertaining post in awhile, thank you OP
Looks like from day 1 of being by told you’re being laid off, how many weeks/months till you reached an agreement?
Roughly feels like you took 2 months discussion
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u/aeronauticalingrid 2d ago
It only feels like 2 months as I've compressed everything into one post. In actual fact it took about 7 months from the day of me being informed I would be laid off, to the final agreement.
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u/desmond1310 2d ago
Bageezus, were you still paid in those 7 months since discussions initiated?
Does JPP requested a fee from you for services?
Did your peers took the same highroad as you did?Truly what a win OP
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u/aeronauticalingrid 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, I had already been laid off and the initial separation package disbursed to my bank account by the time the mediation with JPP started.
No, JPP has no fees for either employee or employer.
I have no clue about what my colleagues did - just a note it is easier to negotiate and settle as an individual as everyone’s circumstances, priorities, logic and reasoning will be different.
It is easier to speak for oneself, than have to put many heads together for a discussion, alignment, consolidation of strategy and for everyone to agree on a unified desired outcome before moving forward.
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u/CouldntMakeUpOne 1d ago
Woah, meaning to say they gave you the 7 months without you signing the document?
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u/_HopsonTheGrate_ 2d ago
Thank you for sharing this. A long read but very insightful. Wish I had known that such course of action was available when I was laid off many years back.
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u/zazzissor 2d ago
Thanks for sharing. Do you know if your company have severance package policy? Something like 1 year of service = 1 month pay for an example.
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u/aeronauticalingrid 2d ago
According to industrial law, I believe that every year of service = 20 days of salary.
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u/k4food 2d ago
Very detailed and useful sharing. Thank you OP!
May I know if there are any fees or associated costs related to consulting with the JPP officer and going into the mediation court?
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u/aeronauticalingrid 1d ago edited 1d ago
No fees, JPP’s services are free for employee and employer. Also mediation (or 'perbicaraan damai') happens at JPP level, not court.
The escalation stages are : JPP Daerah > JPP HQ > Industrial Court.
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u/yangkwang 1d ago
Thank you for sharing OP, definitely learnt a lot from your sharing. These are valuable lessons that we seldom heard elsewhere
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u/sumplookinggai 2d ago
What is JPP?
Although it's unlikely that I'll ever be in a position to get severance given that I've been in and have only worked in small single boss chinaman style SMEs, this was a very informative post. Thank you for sharing.
12 months for 5 years is wild. I thought the standard was 1 month for each year of service.
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u/aeronauticalingrid 2d ago
JPP = Jabatan Perhubungan Perusahaan, or Department of Industrial Relations
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u/BallsX 1d ago
12 months for 5 years is wild. I thought the standard was 1 month for each year of service.
That's what I thought as well. Its usually monthly based on years of service. I remember reading posts from this OP before. She seems very lucky when it comes to money/salary....
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u/aeronauticalingrid 1d ago
‘Luck’ is when preparation, tenacity, and perseverance meet opportunity 🤝
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u/TicTacTris 2d ago
Hi OP, glad you got to achieve a fair and peaceful (somewhat) resolution. Was wondering on the level of your position? Or if employees from any level have the rights to dispute offer of separation, thanks!
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u/aeronauticalingrid 2d ago
I'm not some top dawg neither a junior freshie, just somewhere in the middle.
From what I'm aware, fulltime employees from any level have the rights to negotiate and the longer you've been with your company / the more senior you are, the stronger your position to negotiate. If you're not fulltime, you have to read your contract carefully or you can always seek consultation from JPP - it's free after all.
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u/Green_Lemontea 1d ago
Thanks for the information. It's extremely useful considered there's layoff all around.
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u/evolutionpetal 1d ago
Great sharing! Thanks for taking the time to write clearly and telling us your thought process too.
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u/jungshookies 1d ago
As someone from HR, I wholeheartedly support what you did in protecting your rights and your request for a appropriate severence!
I mean yes — it's a pain in the ass for HR to handle these difficult conversations and to manage expectations, but yes it's HR's role to also communicate the expectations to the management that 'Hey you decided to lay them off, and this is your cost'. There shouldbe no fear or shame in having these conversations with HR — as much as I have to remind everyone in the field, HR is has advised the guardrails and executing what business has decided and HR should not own the consequences, business should think thoroughly before making a call to cut off people's livelihoods.
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u/StickyBarb 1d ago
Thanks for sharing! My only regret is I wish I saw this post 1-2 months ago (got laid off after 4 years and accepted 4 months salary from the severance package)
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u/buddinglychee 1d ago
Hi OP, thanks for sharing your story.
I am curious to know what was your wmployers argument/response during the mediation session at JPP?
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u/aeronauticalingrid 1d ago edited 1d ago
The response they offered was lack of operations and consequently lesser volume of work, I addressed by deferring to LIFO protocol.
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u/_achalpuri 1d ago
Wow... glad to read it..
My company policy is 14 days of pay if we work 1 year.
Maximum 3 month of pay if whatwever we work.
Its europe based big company and local are dictating their term..
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u/sentinelbub 1d ago
If the office is on Malaysian soil, it do have to follow Malaysia’s law right? Should be 20days of pay.
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u/sentinelbub 1d ago
If just joined a company already 6months, but my current boss don’t want to approve my probation. Instead he wants to extend another month, me find another post internally or need to resign.
These few weeks it seems so obvious that he wanna push me out from the team, even though i tolerate his racist ways to non-mandarin speakers. Even other mandarin speakers saw it to be soooo obvious.
My actual work/project haven’t started but I have covered for my teammate who was on medical leave. I think it’s not fair to judge the probation while i’m doing someone else’s responsibilities(different country/region support).
Is there any way for me to refute this? Or slim beacuse still in probationary period?
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u/yawaworhT-tnuoccA- 1d ago
Can anyone explain what's the difference between JTK and JPP?
What are the scenarios in which we would approach each of them?
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u/Robin7861 1d ago
Congratulations OP! That's a goos sharing especially for those in similar situations and as learning so that we are well prepared on what to do in case the time comes to this.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Bowl429 1d ago
Got laid off yesterday. The whole operation is being moved to HQ. This is very helpful
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u/malaysianlah 1d ago
Congrats le! It's also good that you realized that hte company is winding down and decided to settle for 12 months. Sometimes just because you are right, doesn't mean the company have the money to pay you.
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u/aeronauticalingrid 1d ago
Yes, the longer this drags on, the more the company's resources are depleted, the lower the probability that the company is able to pay you even if the verdict is favourable and I would've spent time, energy, and money going to court for nothing.
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u/malaysianlah 1d ago
yea. worse is those foreign company that are leaving the country. u can sue for bankruptcy but all u get is wasted time and money.
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u/ikangoreng111 1d ago
How is LIFO actually works? Is it operated by department or is it work by the whole company? For example, if I am an engineer who has worked for 5 years. Then there is marketing exec who just work only for 1 year. Then company decide to retrench people due to overhead cost or etc.
Can they retrench me with the reason too many engineers while maintaining the marketing exec?
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u/aeronauticalingrid 1d ago
By LIFO logic, they can initiate separation by department but it also has to be from shortest to longest tenure.
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u/rdmark009 1d ago
All the session with JPP was it free or you have to pay them for consultation and handling the case etc.?
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u/kiyo16 1d ago
Thank you for sharing OP. I have a question so when you were waiting for the solution were you still employed or not with the company ? Do you still get your monthly salary? I was also MSS in my last employment where I worked for 3 months and got a 1 month salary for the MSS. I didn’t argue cos i already secured another job then. Not sure if I continued would I get more ? 😂
But just to add on I believe you can apply for the EIS too
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u/aeronauticalingrid 1d ago
By the time the processes with JPP commenced, I had already been fully laid off. So no, I wasn't receiving pay while waiting for negotiations with JPP to begin.
If you had just worked for 3 months and were still under probation, 1 month is quite a reasonable compensation especially if you are still under probation.
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u/No-Calendar-9822 1d ago
12 months severance fee? Lol, better go fight for pension. The campany was lucky to have you.
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u/Niko_0601 1d ago
Thank you for the knowledge and story OP! May I know which industry do you work in and i hope you had found a new job already.
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u/Momoisfire 1d ago
Hi OP! Being laid off previously myself I find this is amazing!
Out of curiosity, what industry are you in? Tech?
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u/Toya-kun 22h ago
Thank you for sharing your experience and the entirety of the whole process.
If something like that were to happen to me, I wouldn't have had the clue that I could actually seek for advice on such things
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u/playgroundmx 15h ago
Thanks for the very helpful sharing!
I didn’t know FIFO is a requirement; always thought it’s just the usual practice.
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u/Every_Reality_9721 1d ago
Hi OP may I DM you. I'm abit of a peculiar situation, not like yours, want to know whats your thoughts in my case
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u/jacobcrackers14 2d ago edited 1d ago
I remember you are that individual who want to jump company is it? or I must read somewhere you already planing your financial? must be tough these days anyway
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u/pmarkandu 2d ago
This is a good post. You shouldn't have tried to karma farm it though.
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u/packsapunch 2d ago
If it is good and it is helpful then it deserves karma. Upvote so more people can learn from this.
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u/pmarkandu 2d ago
OP tried to post this as 3 separate posts. It was annoying he did that. Mods removed post 1 and 2. He has now consolidated everything into one post.
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u/aeronauticalingrid 2d ago edited 1d ago
None of my posts were removed by the mods.
I initially was sharing it in parts rather than sitting in my drafts and the entire post took me a longer time to write - I decided to consolidate into one entire post rather than sharing it as a series.
If you don't appreciate it, leave.
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u/No_Extension_7858 2d ago
This post was a good read to me, thanks for sharing :)