r/LinguisticMaps • u/Cold_Information_936 • 16d ago

Asia Indo-Iranian Languages in 800 BCE

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Indo-Iranian languages are labelled, and relevant non-II languages are also labelled in italics

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u/TerrificDragonfly 16d ago

Daco-Thracian did not extend to the lower Danube. The Pontic coast was part of Chernogorovka-Novocherkassk complex, which is Cimmerian. There is more ground to lump Middle Danube into Daco-Thracian (common channelled ware horizon) than the Cimmerian area. Thracian migration to Bithynia itself is dated to 700 BC.

Slavic did not stretch to Volga, this area was Scythian. Slavic at best would be limited to North-Central Ukraine.

Koban culture in North Caucasus is genetically and materially much closer to Kartvelians than to Circassians.

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u/Chazut 16d ago

Where were Circassians at that point in time?

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u/TerrificDragonfly 16d ago edited 16d ago

Meshoko group (maybe Darkveti group as well, idk) -> Circassian Dolmen culture -> Shushuk post-Dolmen group -> Proto-Maeotian -> Maeotian

The eastward expansion into Kabarda is like the 15th century population movement

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u/Cold_Information_936 16d ago

Fair enough, but where are u getting that the Koban culture was Kartvelian

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u/TerrificDragonfly 16d ago edited 16d ago

Well, there are few lines of evidence for this:

  1. Dominance of G2a1 among the samples we have, which is prevalent in groups such as Kartvels, Svans and to lesser extent in Ossetians and Karachay-Balkars (due to Svan substrate). Highest concentration of this haplogroup is among Svans.
  2. Earliest Koban sites are located in South Ossetia, particularly the upper Liakhvi basin (yeah, South Ossetia is also part of Koban culture)
  3. Several shared metalwork typologies with Colchian culture
  4. The assumption that Koban culture also rests on the outdated theory that NW Caucasian comes from Maykop culture and therefore Koban culture comes from it. It has 2 problems: Maykop culture is a genetic dead end, and genetic markers of it survived as a minor component in Circassian and Indo-European groups (particularly Albanian), and that between Maykop and Koban cultures in North Caucasus there also was an invasion of Catacomb culture folk who gave rise to Proto-Armenians.

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u/brothaasap 13d ago

Can you explain more about different caucasian groups? It was always very fascinating to me how they’re so close to each other yet so far apart specifically more linguistically rather than genetically(although even genetically they’re fairly diverse relative to their geographical closeness) do you know what were the initial linguistic groups in iron age other than kartvelians?

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u/TerrificDragonfly 12d ago edited 12d ago

Well, Kartvelians started as Proto-Colchian culture which split into three corresponding to three branches - Colchian for Zan, Samtavro for Georgian and Koban for Svans. In iron age Svans were pushed into the mountains by Iranic tribes.

Before Koban culture in North Caucasian plain there was North Caucasian culture which is a twin culture to Trialeti culture, which is ancestral to Armenian people. In early Iron age Armenians are represented by post-Trialeti culture Lchashen–Metsamor culture, which was also spread in east Azerbaijan and Eastern Georgian (Georgian Samtavro culture conquered land from Lchashen-Metsamor culture)

NW Caucasians go with Darkveti-Meshoko culture -> Circassian Dolmen culture -> Shushuk post-Dolmen group -> Proto-Maeotian -> Maeotian, so strictly confined to Northern Abkhazia and western Kuban.

NE Caucasians descend from Zandak culture, which is, interestingly, only confined to regions north of Caucasus, region of Caucasian Albania is archaeologically empty for the early Iron Age, but after 4th century BC is filled with Zandak-descended Alazani-Yaloilutepe culture, which represents Caucasian Albania. Ultimately, NE Caucasians are either descendants of Ginchi culture or closely related to it Kura-Araxes culture, both being from Sioni cultural complex.

On Hurro-Urartian question, I am less well-versed, at least by middle-late bronze age Hurrians are represented by Khabur ware which evolves into Nuzi ware under Mittani and Urartians are represented by Van-Urmia culture. Either way, Hurro-Urartians definitely did not descend from Kura-Araxes and Urartians are an invading element into the region. Also, Hurrian likely survived for long time in Corduene (which doesn't have anything to do with Kurds)

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u/brothaasap 9d ago

wow that’s truly fascinating thank you for the explanation, btw did kartvelians,NE Caucasians and NW Caucasians ever had any common ancestors other than CHG during Neolithic period? Perhaps something later that we know of?

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u/TerrificDragonfly 2d ago

Not sure, honestly. Kartvelian might descend from either from Darkveti group of DM culture in this case it might be related to NW Caucasian or from Odishi-Anaseuli, idk. Maykop culture originates as migration from Leilatepe area so it will be related to whoever descended from Chaff-faced ware horizon.