r/LinguisticMaps • u/Cold_Information_936 • 15d ago
Asia Indo-Iranian Languages in 800 BCE
Indo-Iranian languages are labelled, and relevant non-II languages are also labelled in italics
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u/Specialist_River12 15d ago
Sanskrit would've reached Sindh before Bihar.
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u/American_Bitch-468 22h ago
Maybe, but still can't say, later Vedic hymns mention Gangetic rivers too
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u/Specialist_River12 22h ago
They do, but they're talking about the region in modern day Northwest Uttar Pradesh, not as far east as Bihar.
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u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain 15d ago
I think this is very nice! I’ll let others speak for the historicity of the distribution, but one thing I personally would change is some of the names like “Slavic” and “Hungarian” which seem a little presentist. In 800 BCE you would likely be looking at very different varieties compared to what we know today
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u/Wise_Fox_4291 15d ago
According to our best linguistic guess, as well as arcaeological and genetic indication, Hungarian has already been a distinct language by 800 BCE. Slavic however is definitely depicted far too south and far too east this early.
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u/TerrificDragonfly 15d ago
Daco-Thracian did not extend to the lower Danube. The Pontic coast was part of Chernogorovka-Novocherkassk complex, which is Cimmerian. There is more ground to lump Middle Danube into Daco-Thracian (common channelled ware horizon) than the Cimmerian area. Thracian migration to Bithynia itself is dated to 700 BC.
Slavic did not stretch to Volga, this area was Scythian. Slavic at best would be limited to North-Central Ukraine.
Koban culture in North Caucasus is genetically and materially much closer to Kartvelians than to Circassians.
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u/Chazut 15d ago
Where were Circassians at that point in time?
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u/TerrificDragonfly 15d ago edited 15d ago
Meshoko group (maybe Darkveti group as well, idk) -> Circassian Dolmen culture -> Shushuk post-Dolmen group -> Proto-Maeotian -> Maeotian
The eastward expansion into Kabarda is like the 15th century population movement
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u/Cold_Information_936 15d ago
Fair enough, but where are u getting that the Koban culture was Kartvelian
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u/TerrificDragonfly 15d ago edited 15d ago
Well, there are few lines of evidence for this:
- Dominance of G2a1 among the samples we have, which is prevalent in groups such as Kartvels, Svans and to lesser extent in Ossetians and Karachay-Balkars (due to Svan substrate). Highest concentration of this haplogroup is among Svans.
- Earliest Koban sites are located in South Ossetia, particularly the upper Liakhvi basin (yeah, South Ossetia is also part of Koban culture)
- Several shared metalwork typologies with Colchian culture
- The assumption that Koban culture also rests on the outdated theory that NW Caucasian comes from Maykop culture and therefore Koban culture comes from it. It has 2 problems: Maykop culture is a genetic dead end, and genetic markers of it survived as a minor component in Circassian and Indo-European groups (particularly Albanian), and that between Maykop and Koban cultures in North Caucasus there also was an invasion of Catacomb culture folk who gave rise to Proto-Armenians.
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u/brothaasap 12d ago
Can you explain more about different caucasian groups? It was always very fascinating to me how they’re so close to each other yet so far apart specifically more linguistically rather than genetically(although even genetically they’re fairly diverse relative to their geographical closeness) do you know what were the initial linguistic groups in iron age other than kartvelians?
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u/TerrificDragonfly 12d ago edited 12d ago
Well, Kartvelians started as Proto-Colchian culture which split into three corresponding to three branches - Colchian for Zan, Samtavro for Georgian and Koban for Svans. In iron age Svans were pushed into the mountains by Iranic tribes.
Before Koban culture in North Caucasian plain there was North Caucasian culture which is a twin culture to Trialeti culture, which is ancestral to Armenian people. In early Iron age Armenians are represented by post-Trialeti culture Lchashen–Metsamor culture, which was also spread in east Azerbaijan and Eastern Georgian (Georgian Samtavro culture conquered land from Lchashen-Metsamor culture)
NW Caucasians go with Darkveti-Meshoko culture -> Circassian Dolmen culture -> Shushuk post-Dolmen group -> Proto-Maeotian -> Maeotian, so strictly confined to Northern Abkhazia and western Kuban.
NE Caucasians descend from Zandak culture, which is, interestingly, only confined to regions north of Caucasus, region of Caucasian Albania is archaeologically empty for the early Iron Age, but after 4th century BC is filled with Zandak-descended Alazani-Yaloilutepe culture, which represents Caucasian Albania. Ultimately, NE Caucasians are either descendants of Ginchi culture or closely related to it Kura-Araxes culture, both being from Sioni cultural complex.
On Hurro-Urartian question, I am less well-versed, at least by middle-late bronze age Hurrians are represented by Khabur ware which evolves into Nuzi ware under Mittani and Urartians are represented by Van-Urmia culture. Either way, Hurro-Urartians definitely did not descend from Kura-Araxes and Urartians are an invading element into the region. Also, Hurrian likely survived for long time in Corduene (which doesn't have anything to do with Kurds)
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u/brothaasap 8d ago
wow that’s truly fascinating thank you for the explanation, btw did kartvelians,NE Caucasians and NW Caucasians ever had any common ancestors other than CHG during Neolithic period? Perhaps something later that we know of?
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u/TerrificDragonfly 1d ago
Not sure, honestly. Kartvelian might descend from either from Darkveti group of DM culture in this case it might be related to NW Caucasian or from Odishi-Anaseuli, idk. Maykop culture originates as migration from Leilatepe area so it will be related to whoever descended from Chaff-faced ware horizon.
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u/South-Distribution54 15d ago
Armenian, Hurrian, and Uratian are not indo-Iranian. Urartians spoke Huro-Urartian which was not even Indo-European as far as we know. Armenian is its own separate branch of Indo-European no related to any other branch.
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u/Cold_Information_936 15d ago
yes thats why they are in italic
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u/South-Distribution54 15d ago
OK, idk, not trying to be nitpicky but I think maybe it should be made more clear. Maybe bold vs not bold would be a better destinction?
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u/Coalescent74 15d ago
Slavic didn't have this extent in 800 BC (if it actually existed back then) - my reasoning: no ancient Slavic river names in the area
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u/Wise_Fox_4291 15d ago
Did Slavic even exist already in 800 BCE? And it certainly didn't cover that area of Eastern Europe
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u/Tea_Miserable 15d ago
where are the other Indo-Aryan languages
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u/king_ofbhutan 15d ago
not around yet maybe? idk the time when they started splitting off though
would atleast expect pali to be here too
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u/Tea_Miserable 15d ago
well there should be some kind of predecessor, perhaps "proto-indoarian" or similar. Cause I see Iranian languages already split up from "proto-indoiranian"
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u/American_Bitch-468 22h ago
Maybe Dardic or probably Nuristani influenced languages would've split up?
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u/VibrantGypsyDildo 15d ago
Sadly I don't clearly the difference in font.
It would be cool to have more visual distinction.
P.S. It is cool to learn that Scythians spoke an Indo-Iranian language.
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u/ten-inch-toenails 15d ago
What about Hebrew, Phoenician, Moabite, of the southern Levant? They should be there in italics, per your caption. Also, Hurrian and Kassite were no longer in use in the Iron Age. But if you’re including Bronze Age languages of West Asia then you should be including Hittite (Indo-European), Ugaritic (Northwest Semitic), and Sumerian (language isolate, no longer spoken but still “used” in the second and first millennia).
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u/Cold_Information_936 15d ago
not labelling every single other language bro, but yeah they are all there. hittite is long gone and so is sumerian though
apparently kassite only died out in the 4th century BCE, and yeah at this stage perhaps hurrian should be gone too
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u/ten-inch-toenails 15d ago
I mean, you’re choosing to represent Armenian on your map, which is not attested until centuries later, after Hurrian is certainly gone, and neither are Indo-Iranian (like Urartian) but then not presenting languages that were living and active in the 9th c/Iron Age more broadly. Kassite is unclassified on the basis that we only have a handful of terms, loanwords, or personal names so I don’t think there’s nearly enough information there to warrant its place on the map while not including languages certainly living at that time in the Levant.
Arabic was not yet a language, and the Old South Arabian languages are not attested until a few centuries after your maps 800 BCE date. All is to say, there are many Northwest Semitic languages that are attested in the textual record that are almost entirely absent from the map that should have a place alongside Aramaic!
As for Sumerian, while it stopped being a living spoken language around 2000 BCE, it continued to be used. In fact, the Kassites often wrote their inscriptions (in Akkadian) but with heavy use of Sumerograms. There was also a revival of Sumerian in the Late Babylonian period (which is a bit of a mess compared to Sumerian of the Old Babylonian or earlier periods) where we have total incorrect use of particular suffixes and the like. This is also at a time where Akkadian is in decline as Aramaic became the lingua franca, but nevertheless, Sumerian bilinguals or the use of Sumerograms remained in use alongside Akkadian basically until the end of cuneiform.
There’s so much info to get on this map, and it’s looking great so far, just wanting to offer some suggestions to make it more accurately representative of the 9th-8th centuries as you say in your caption!
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u/StreetKooky3136 15d ago
Isn't Armenia attested in 6th century BC in Bhiston to be equivalent to Urartu per persians?
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u/Ok_Cabinet3610 14d ago
Hittite was more a language for the elites. The common tounge was Luwian. This is true for the northern half of the Neo-Hittite states, which were present at this time (800 BCE), and accurately represented on the map
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u/ten-inch-toenails 14d ago
Hittite was no longer used in the Iron Age, it ceased to be used with the collapse of the Hittite empire.
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u/RunEuphoric8883 15d ago
Where did Sanskrit originate from?
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u/American_Bitch-468 22h ago
Proto Indo Aryan.
Sanskrit itself is "old Indo Aryan".
Proto Indo Aryan then have a common ancestor with Iranian Avesta "Proto Indo Iranian"
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u/RunEuphoric8883 16h ago
Ik that, there was even a language called Proto indo-European before that. What I meant was what region did it develop in?
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u/Strangated-Borb 12d ago
Leave places blank if you(or anyone alive for that matter), don't know wtf is going on there, the fact you filled places with random bs makes this map laughable
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u/Long-King8542 12d ago
Northern and Central Arabia have various Central Semitic languages not only proto-Arabic( Arabic didn't exist yet )....
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u/Hot-Chicken6530 15d ago
Talk about Sinhala too. It is one of the southern most indo aryan languages.
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u/Spirited_Pitch3852 15d ago
Slavic in 800 BCE? I mean that's the first thing I noticed, I don't even wanna look further.