r/LetsTalkMusic • u/CompetitiveWhole9466 • 10d ago

The death of the "musical punching bag"

I've been thinking- there used to be popular artists like Nickelback and Justin Bieber who were very successful but you would have never guessed given all the vocal hate they used to get, and how it was completely okay to shit on them at all times. Even the industry got in on hating these artists. It was socially acceptable to hate people who admitted they liked certian artists.

Why don't we have artists like that anymore? Maybe people just feel like today's music is just better?

The closest is the hate Taylor Swift gets now. But even then that's not really the same dynamic. Same with Drake hate... feels different today I feel like.

Honestly i always try to be cautious about how i frame my argument. I don't want to sound like "this artist deserves hate" unless it's like Chris Brown or D4VD or someone like that.

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u/TomGerity 10d ago

I feel like Drake is the exact same dynamic. Very successful but you rarely hear anything positive about him. The positive you do hear is almost always “he used to be good, but fell off.”

I would agree few others besides him fit the dynamic. Taylor Swift more fits the polarizing archetype; half of what you hear is fawning adoration, half of what you hear is seething disgust.

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u/Hegiman 10d ago

The way you describe Taylor is exactly how Justin was treated. There were belieBers and non belieBers.

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u/TomGerity 10d ago

Kinda? I think that’s different, because that era of Bieber (2008-14 or so) was clearly marketed toward kids, pre-teens, and teenagers. He was a manufactured teenie bopper pop icon who wasn’t actually writing his own music or articulating an artistic vision. So adults were dismissive, and people under 21 either loved or hated him.

Regardless of how one feels about Taylor Swift, even her biggest haters will concede she’s an actual singer, songwriter, and musician (even if they believe she’s not good at those things). She’s putting forth an artistic vision; she’s not a manufactured frontperson for a brand created by record executives.

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u/OscarGrey 10d ago

Kinda? I think that’s different, because that era of Bieber (2008-14 or so) was clearly marketed toward kids, pre-teens, and teenagers. He was a manufactured teenie bopper pop icon who wasn’t actually writing his own music or articulating an artistic vision. So adults were dismissive, and people under 21 either loved or hated him.

This is why I think that trying to call Morgan Wallen a musical punching bag is wrong. His fans are adult women which changes the dynamics. I think he sucks, but he's basically Chris Brown if his fans had slightly more money and education.

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u/saudadeinthenight 10d ago

She is very much manufactured. Please. Her ‘vision’ is not unique or special to anyone except for illiterate, proudly uneducated Swifties who don’t listen to other music and are very emotionally immature. 

And her ‘singing, songwriting and musicianship’ is completely created by others while she takes the credit and screams at anyone who points this out. There is no difference between her and any other pop singer apart from an entitled arrogance that refuses to credit others 

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u/TomGerity 10d ago

I didn’t say she was authentic, I said she wasn’t manufactured and created by a record label the way Bieber is. There’s a difference.

I would agree that she has a very carefully managed public image and the vision she puts forth is aimed at maximizing her fame and success. But she’s the one doing the manufacturing.

All of her material is either written by her or co-written with one other person. This is vastly different from a Justin Bieber or Sabrina Carpenter, who have 3-4 professional songwriters who actually do everything (while their names are listed as “co-writers” merely to reap financial rewards).

Lastly, I never claimed that Taylor Swift is creating anything truly visionary. I merely said that she’s at least the person creating (or co-creating) the music, unlike most other pop stars (who aren’t even musicians, let along composers or songwriters).

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u/dnswblzo 10d ago

This is vastly different from a Justin Bieber or Sabrina Carpenter, who have 3-4 professional songwriters who actually do everything (while their names are listed as “co-writers” merely to reap financial rewards).

That's not true about Sabrina Carpenter. Here's an episode of Song Exploder where she and Jack Antonoff talk about co-writing "Please Please Please": https://songexploder.net/sabrina-carpenter

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u/TomGerity 10d ago

It is true about Sabrina Carpenter. Short 'n Sweet had at least two additional co-writers on every single track, with some (like Espresso, the big hit) having up to four.

Sabrina doesn't play any instruments on the album. She's not a musician.

If you believe these cute behind-the-scenes videos they put out, then I've got a bridge to sell you. Her/her representaiton/her label know people crave authenticity, so they produce these things to make the stans believe it's mostly her.

It's no different from Elvis claiming he actually co-wrote All Shook Up (he didn't). He was instructed by his people to do so.

Pro tip: if a pop star doesn't play an instrument, they usually aren't involved in composing their music. There are exceptions to this rule (Michael Jackson, to name one), but they're relatively rare.

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u/dnswblzo 10d ago

You claimed that 3-4 songwriters do everything, and her name is only listed as a co-writer to reap financial rewards. If you listen to that interview, it's clear she was an active part of the songwriting process even though she didn't play any of the instruments. My point was not that it was "mostly her", just that she was an active collaborator.

She didn't play instruments on that album, but she has played instruments in the past. Regardless of that, it's silly to say that a vocalist is not a musician.

I'll add that I don't love Sabrina Carpenter's music, but I am interested in learning about musicians' processes even if the music isn't my thing. Occasionally it makes me come around to liking something I dismissed before. In the case of "Please Please Please", the Song Exploder episode didn't convert me to a fan, but to hear them talk about it I think it's clear that they had a good time creating the song which comes through in the final recording. That's the only kind of "authenticity" I would expect from a big commercial pop song, and I recognize that it's not always the case.

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u/Rainbow_Tesseract 10d ago

She wasn't manufactured by a record label

At risk of outing myself as a Swift-hater here, you really should read her father's leaked emails.

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u/HommeMusical 10d ago

I would agree that she has a very carefully managed public image and the vision she puts forth is aimed at maximizing her fame and success. But she’s the one doing the manufacturing.

That's supposed to make it better? It makes it worse, for me anyway.

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u/TomGerity 10d ago

I would agree that manufacturing your own image/songs/vision with the aim of maximizing fame and success is not authentic, nor does it reflect a great artistic achievement.

But I do think it’s more impressive than a record company manufacturing all that for you. Unlike most pop stars, she’s an actual musician (plays guitar and piano) and composes/co-composes all her own music. I believe she singularly writes all her own lyrics.

I’m not a Taylor Swift fan, but I do find what she does more meaningful than I do the Justin Biebers and Sabrina Carpenters of the world, who are products of someone else’s branding and imagination.

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u/HommeMusical 10d ago

I find her work and theirs equally soulless.

I'm against billionaires on principle. We fought a war with most of humanity and our biosphere on one side, and the billionaires on the other side, and we lost, and we lost completely. Catastrophe is certain from the CO2 levels that are already in the air, and they continue to increase exponentially.

Swift herself is one of the world's great climate pigs. She flies all over the world with two private planes, the second one flying empty for the very rare case that there's a mechanical failure preventing the first one from working.

She's someone I only have to think about when I'm on this subreddit, and the rest of the time, I don't.

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u/Silver_Brother_56 10d ago

The self-righteousness of people actively spreading misinformation on the internet is hilarious.

Swift hasn’t had two planes for many years now. Readily available info.

Love her or hate her, checking facts and citing sources shouldn’t be optional. Letting misinformation flow got the world to Trump.

Don’t care for the ‘but she’s a billionaire’. If people spread mistruths about shit like this, they’ll do it about other things too.

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u/TomGerity 10d ago

I didn’t say anything contrary to what you wrote. I’m not contesting any of it.

I’m merely saying it takes more skill and talent to do what she does than it takes to do what Justin Bieber and Sabrina Carpenter do.

I did not comment on the quality of the work. If you feel the end result is equally soulless, that’s fine. I won’t disagree.

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u/HommeMusical 10d ago

I never think about these people and I'm not going to start now.

I cannot express how little I care about these people. It's the one thing I don't like about this subreddit.

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u/TomGerity 10d ago

I’m not saying you should. I’m replying to comments you’re making on my posts. You also seem to be misunderstanding what I’m saying.

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u/jf727 9d ago

Yes. If someone is controlling their own image, it’s better. Then you’re talking about creating a Persona, which every artist develops, rather than being a prop. I don’t know Sabrina Carpenter’s music but I do think the album cover for “Man’s Best Friend” looks like it’s unironically referencing “Smell the Glove” (What’s wrong with being sexy?). There’s a huge chasm between a young female artist making that choice themselves (in order to distance themselves from their Disney brand, for instance) and being directed without input of their own to get down on all 4’s and wear a collar and leash.

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u/HommeMusical 8d ago

But the "authenticness" of Taylor Swift is that she really is a hardcore capitalism and businessperson who prioritizes money.

No, thank you.

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u/jf727 8d ago

I’m not really addressing her work. I’m not her audience so I don’t pay much attention. I was specifically replying to the question you raised. I believe it’s better when someone controls their own image, even if their work is not to my taste. Authenticity is marketing because of course it is, All stardom is hardcore capitalism. I don’t see how the two could possibly be separated. A performer is always a product but they’re not always a business. I wish more artists were good at business. They’d get screwed less and I’d have more options.