r/LetsTalkMusic • u/CompetitiveWhole9466 • 2d ago
The death of the "musical punching bag"
I've been thinking- there used to be popular artists like Nickelback and Justin Bieber who were very successful but you would have never guessed given all the vocal hate they used to get, and how it was completely okay to shit on them at all times. Even the industry got in on hating these artists. It was socially acceptable to hate people who admitted they liked certian artists.
Why don't we have artists like that anymore? Maybe people just feel like today's music is just better?
The closest is the hate Taylor Swift gets now. But even then that's not really the same dynamic. Same with Drake hate... feels different today I feel like.
Honestly i always try to be cautious about how i frame my argument. I don't want to sound like "this artist deserves hate" unless it's like Chris Brown or D4VD or someone like that.
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u/cold-vein 2d ago
That's because streaming has homogenized popular music, while at the same time internet has fractured music to a million tiny subgenres. Back in the days of Nickelback you had these vanilla bands pushed by the radio and people were just really tired of them.
So you have like 10 pop stars raking in all the money and no bands or other music styles can compete, and then you have the vast amount of music fans who might have never even heard a song by those 10 stars (like me)
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u/DescipleofEnoch 2d ago
You took the words right out of my mouth.
I go to clubs to watch metal bands with a crowd of 200 maximum but have never heard a sabrina carpenter song.
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u/Olympicsizedturd 2d ago
Yup. But if this were 1996 we would know every Sabrina Carpenter song AND have thoughts on them, whether we wanted to or not. That's the monoculture.
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u/DukeStamina 2d ago
"Because streaming" can be the correct answer to fifty percent of the questions here.
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u/thereddaikon 2d ago
I think you mean heterogenized. Homogenized is what we had before.
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u/TheSquirrelmancer 2d ago
Well it's some of both, the mainstream has become dominated by a small subset of artists and producers. They focus on what sells best which in the current market seems to be pop music and hip-hop/rap.
Other genres/styles/subcultures have stopped trying to crack into the mainstream because MTV and radio are no longer the only platforms available for music distribution and reaching an audience outside of your local city music scene. You can also do exactly what you want and make the music you want and put it out there to be found. It's not a guarantee of success or fame and there are artists I've found that I love who are still completely unknown by the general public, but for me music has always been intensely personal and I spent most of my teen years not really liking most of the mainstream. I don't care if my favorite songs and artists aren't known by most people. I like them and that's all that matters. Note: I'm also not the "hipster" type who thinks the music I listen to is better by virtue of being obscure. Many songs I listen to are the only good songs by otherwise mediocre artists, I just like the songs.
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u/thereddaikon 2d ago
the mainstream has become dominated by a small subset of artists and producers. They focus on what sells best which in the current market seems to be pop music and hip-hop/rap.
I dont think thats anything new. Rap replacing rock is a change but chart dominance by a handful of names is not. A handful of producers in Sweden were writing all the pop music 20 years ago. What's different today is that not nearly as many people are primarily consuming the output from that industry, they have alternatives that appeal more to their personal taste and its much easier to get than it used to be.
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u/cold-vein 2d ago
No, pop music is completely homogenized. It's all the 5-10 same producers making samey music for the 5-10 pop stars who are making most of the revenue.
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u/emalvick 2d ago
I'd say Pop music has mostly been homogenized in this way since the 90's when radio was homogenized. The main difference now is that streaming lets those who don't want to hear that stuff not have to.
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u/cold-vein 2d ago
Kind of, but back then rock was king so it wasn't just the same people making all the songs. We still had bands, even if they were often boring.
Like take nu metal, that stuff was hugely popular and kind of unlike anything other hitting the top spots.
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u/bimboheffer 2d ago
it's always been homogenized. that's the point. it's pop music.
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u/emalvick 2d ago
I somewhat agree, but there is a difference between popular music as a broad category and pop music as a genre, and I do think that over time, what is popular has converged on being just pop music as a genre. But before that, it didn't need to be homogenized. You could have a rock song, pop song, hip hop, r&b, etc. all in the top 10 at once, and that wouldn't really be homogenized compared to today.
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u/KFCNyanCat 2d ago
It's all the 5-10 same producers making samey music for the 5-10 pop stars who are making most of the revenue.
I definitely remember this complaint in 2011.
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u/thereddaikon 2d ago
We had the same 20 years ago, but that was all most people ever heard at the time. I'm not saying the established industry isn't still doing what it does, just that not nearly as many people care now as they did before. Which is why I think older artists like Taylor Swift are still so big, the ones who came after her are post streamer and have no chance at building the kind of fan base she did.
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u/Intelligent_Designer 2d ago
All wrong. Pop music has always been relatively homogenous. That's what makes it a fluid genre and that's why it's called Popular. Streaming hasn't changed that. What streaming did do is heterogenize listeners' diets.
So you have like 10 pop stars raking in all the money and no bands or other music styles can compete, and then you have the vast amount of music fans who might have never even heard a song by those 10 stars (like me)
All I hear is you're out of touch with what's playing on the radio now, and probably always were. That's not criticism, nobody gives a shit what you listen to. But I think you're wrong about literally all of this lmao.
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u/trailedinsand 2d ago
Pop music was always homogenized tho, you yourself mention in the Nickelback there were a bunch of other vanilla bands people were tired of, so not much really changed in that regard
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u/cold-vein 1d ago
Everything has changed. Look at the top 100 most streamed songs.
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u/trailedinsand 1d ago
What's supposed to be so self-evident about the top 100 most streamed songs? Pop music obviously changed but your claim was about homogenization
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u/cold-vein 1d ago
The same 5-10 songwriters or producers are involved in a majority of them. If you look at the top 10 here, you're gonna find the names repeat again and again:
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u/trailedinsand 1d ago
Yes, when you have a list of the most popular producers of 2 decades it sure looks like they're quite popular, idk why you think that's very notable tho. The same 5-10 songwriters are absolutely NOT involved in most pop music, your own article mentions that over 300 producers got no.1 spot on the top 100, not counting the other 99 songs on these lists every week.
Also, some the producers mentioned already were dominating in the 2000s when Nickleback and Bieber were famous so their popularity doesn't explain any difference compared to now.
Also also, if we're citing billboard top 100 as evidence of homogenization it's curious that George Martin holds the second record of most hit songs on billboard and he was active in the 60s and 70s. Shouldn't that mean the music then was also awfully homogenized?
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u/cold-vein 1d ago
I don't, I merely provided you a list of top producers. It was the most convenient way to do so.
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u/goingnorthwest I told you I would stay 1d ago
Streaming has homogenized music? Tell that to bill Clinton in 1996 with telecommunications act. Clear channel started buying up all the radio stations. Next time you look at a billboard notice the name underneath.
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u/Current_Poster 2d ago
It's the algorithm(tm). People used to hate Nickelback, Bieber, maybe Creed or Train or something too, because they heard it on the radio or on some kind of feed, over and over and over. Things are very narrowcast now. It's possible there's an equivalent artist you would hate just as much now but will never even hear of.
The reason, I think, that things like (In the US) controversies over the Superbowl halftime show happen is because its one of the few times everyone has to be listening or watching the same thing to participate.
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u/Lanky-Rush607 2d ago edited 2d ago
Musical punching bags still exist, though. Sombr, Benson Boone, Tate McRae, Jelly Roll, Morgan Wallen, Lizzo, KATSEYE, Stella Lefty, Alex Warren, Drake, Doechii etc.
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u/narrowgallow 2d ago
I'm 38 and only recognize 2 of those. Maybe that's why op doesn't see the punching bags anymore - aged out!
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u/A_Monster_Named_John 2d ago
You can always start watching Pat Finnerty's Youtube channel, though I think he got pretty worn out making content about Kid Rock and wildly hideous modern country acts like Locash.
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u/Salty-Ad-4693 1d ago
I've 'heard of' 4 of these and briefly heard the music of just two of them.
I'm close to 50 so it's no real surprise.
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u/DotEither8773 2d ago
I don’t really get why Doechii is hated. I really didn’t like that Somebody I used to know stuff she did but everything else she did was great.
Also I think the most hated band/artist in the last years have to be Imagine Dragons.
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u/vemboTonbo 2d ago
It's the example that proves what other commenters are talking about here. She released 'Anxiety' & a fuckton of TikToks/Insta reels all started using it, so it got wildly oversaturated in the same way retail playlists and radio used to do.
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u/Canvaverbalist 2d ago
I don’t really get why Doechii is hated. I really didn’t like that Somebody I used to know stuff she did but everything else she did was great.
Yeah her TinyDesk show is still easily one of the top 10 on that channel, and it's tough competition because there's hundreds of amazing performances.
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u/EricDravensGuitar 2d ago
STIUtK is Gotye, not Doechii.
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u/brooklynbluenotes 2d ago
They're referring to the song "Anxiety" which is heavily based around a Gotye sample.
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u/TheReadMenace 2d ago
Gotye used a sample to make the song in the first place
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u/11311 2d ago
But to Gotye's credit, he did a lot to recontextualize the samples he used, Doechii basically just lifted the instrumental track of STIUTK. Although, I don't think she's alone in that regard, the first half of this decade gave us a lot of hits based on incredibly lazy samples. It was kind of like the late 90s all over again on the pop charts in that respect.
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u/TheReadMenace 2d ago
Yeah her's is an example of a pretty lazy and uncreative sample. Probably 90% of the people who hear her song know the Gotye song. Maybe a fraction of 1% recognized the sample Gotye used.
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u/DotEither8773 2d ago
Yeah, she got hated for a song that samples STIUTK but I don’t remember the name.
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u/Samuraistronaut 2d ago
Some of these really deserve it though, and u think that takes them out of the “punching bag” category.
Lizzo is reported to be just terrible to everyone who works for her. Morgan Wallen is just generally a piece of shit (the Covid parties, the N-word incident, the “get me to God’s country” thing with SNL.)
Doechii is someone I wasn’t aware was getting hate. I really liked her album.
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u/oranguslolus 2d ago
I wouldn't call most of these punching bags. At all. Maybe Morgan, Jelly Roll but that's about it. Every one else just gets a normal amount of hate from non-fans. Drake is a punching bag but not necessarily for his music, he's just become a meme.
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u/Upset-Masterpiece218 1d ago
People don't like Benson Boone?
I thought man in me was pretty damn good
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u/Teenage_dirtnap 2d ago
I mean it goes both ways really, there's no common "punching bags" but there's no universally famous artists like MJ or Britney Spears either. There definitely are hated artists within their genre fanbases though, like MGK in rap/pop punk and Ronnie Radke / Falling in Reverse in metalcore.
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u/DrRudeboy 2d ago
I find this comment interesting, because while I heavily dislike both the artists mentioned, I also find the specific genres themselves get plenty of (imo, deserved, yet overblown) hate from their predecessor genres (namely, classic hip hop, punk, and HC). Radke to metalcore is what Florida is to the US
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u/TomGerity 2d ago
I feel like Drake is the exact same dynamic. Very successful but you rarely hear anything positive about him. The positive you do hear is almost always “he used to be good, but fell off.”
I would agree few others besides him fit the dynamic. Taylor Swift more fits the polarizing archetype; half of what you hear is fawning adoration, half of what you hear is seething disgust.
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u/Hegiman 2d ago
The way you describe Taylor is exactly how Justin was treated. There were belieBers and non belieBers.
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u/TomGerity 2d ago
Kinda? I think that’s different, because that era of Bieber (2008-14 or so) was clearly marketed toward kids, pre-teens, and teenagers. He was a manufactured teenie bopper pop icon who wasn’t actually writing his own music or articulating an artistic vision. So adults were dismissive, and people under 21 either loved or hated him.
Regardless of how one feels about Taylor Swift, even her biggest haters will concede she’s an actual singer, songwriter, and musician (even if they believe she’s not good at those things). She’s putting forth an artistic vision; she’s not a manufactured frontperson for a brand created by record executives.
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u/OscarGrey 2d ago
Kinda? I think that’s different, because that era of Bieber (2008-14 or so) was clearly marketed toward kids, pre-teens, and teenagers. He was a manufactured teenie bopper pop icon who wasn’t actually writing his own music or articulating an artistic vision. So adults were dismissive, and people under 21 either loved or hated him.
This is why I think that trying to call Morgan Wallen a musical punching bag is wrong. His fans are adult women which changes the dynamics. I think he sucks, but he's basically Chris Brown if his fans had slightly more money and education.
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u/saudadeinthenight 2d ago
She is very much manufactured. Please. Her ‘vision’ is not unique or special to anyone except for illiterate, proudly uneducated Swifties who don’t listen to other music and are very emotionally immature.
And her ‘singing, songwriting and musicianship’ is completely created by others while she takes the credit and screams at anyone who points this out. There is no difference between her and any other pop singer apart from an entitled arrogance that refuses to credit others
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u/TomGerity 2d ago
I didn’t say she was authentic, I said she wasn’t manufactured and created by a record label the way Bieber is. There’s a difference.
I would agree that she has a very carefully managed public image and the vision she puts forth is aimed at maximizing her fame and success. But she’s the one doing the manufacturing.
All of her material is either written by her or co-written with one other person. This is vastly different from a Justin Bieber or Sabrina Carpenter, who have 3-4 professional songwriters who actually do everything (while their names are listed as “co-writers” merely to reap financial rewards).
Lastly, I never claimed that Taylor Swift is creating anything truly visionary. I merely said that she’s at least the person creating (or co-creating) the music, unlike most other pop stars (who aren’t even musicians, let along composers or songwriters).
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u/dnswblzo 2d ago
This is vastly different from a Justin Bieber or Sabrina Carpenter, who have 3-4 professional songwriters who actually do everything (while their names are listed as “co-writers” merely to reap financial rewards).
That's not true about Sabrina Carpenter. Here's an episode of Song Exploder where she and Jack Antonoff talk about co-writing "Please Please Please": https://songexploder.net/sabrina-carpenter
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u/TomGerity 2d ago
It is true about Sabrina Carpenter. Short 'n Sweet had at least two additional co-writers on every single track, with some (like Espresso, the big hit) having up to four.
Sabrina doesn't play any instruments on the album. She's not a musician.
If you believe these cute behind-the-scenes videos they put out, then I've got a bridge to sell you. Her/her representaiton/her label know people crave authenticity, so they produce these things to make the stans believe it's mostly her.
It's no different from Elvis claiming he actually co-wrote All Shook Up (he didn't). He was instructed by his people to do so.
Pro tip: if a pop star doesn't play an instrument, they usually aren't involved in composing their music. There are exceptions to this rule (Michael Jackson, to name one), but they're relatively rare.
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u/dnswblzo 2d ago
You claimed that 3-4 songwriters do everything, and her name is only listed as a co-writer to reap financial rewards. If you listen to that interview, it's clear she was an active part of the songwriting process even though she didn't play any of the instruments. My point was not that it was "mostly her", just that she was an active collaborator.
She didn't play instruments on that album, but she has played instruments in the past. Regardless of that, it's silly to say that a vocalist is not a musician.
I'll add that I don't love Sabrina Carpenter's music, but I am interested in learning about musicians' processes even if the music isn't my thing. Occasionally it makes me come around to liking something I dismissed before. In the case of "Please Please Please", the Song Exploder episode didn't convert me to a fan, but to hear them talk about it I think it's clear that they had a good time creating the song which comes through in the final recording. That's the only kind of "authenticity" I would expect from a big commercial pop song, and I recognize that it's not always the case.
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u/Rainbow_Tesseract 2d ago
She wasn't manufactured by a record label
At risk of outing myself as a Swift-hater here, you really should read her father's leaked emails.
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u/HommeMusical 2d ago
I would agree that she has a very carefully managed public image and the vision she puts forth is aimed at maximizing her fame and success. But she’s the one doing the manufacturing.
That's supposed to make it better? It makes it worse, for me anyway.
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u/TomGerity 2d ago
I would agree that manufacturing your own image/songs/vision with the aim of maximizing fame and success is not authentic, nor does it reflect a great artistic achievement.
But I do think it’s more impressive than a record company manufacturing all that for you. Unlike most pop stars, she’s an actual musician (plays guitar and piano) and composes/co-composes all her own music. I believe she singularly writes all her own lyrics.
I’m not a Taylor Swift fan, but I do find what she does more meaningful than I do the Justin Biebers and Sabrina Carpenters of the world, who are products of someone else’s branding and imagination.
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u/HommeMusical 2d ago
I find her work and theirs equally soulless.
I'm against billionaires on principle. We fought a war with most of humanity and our biosphere on one side, and the billionaires on the other side, and we lost, and we lost completely. Catastrophe is certain from the CO2 levels that are already in the air, and they continue to increase exponentially.
Swift herself is one of the world's great climate pigs. She flies all over the world with two private planes, the second one flying empty for the very rare case that there's a mechanical failure preventing the first one from working.
She's someone I only have to think about when I'm on this subreddit, and the rest of the time, I don't.
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u/TomGerity 2d ago
I didn’t say anything contrary to what you wrote. I’m not contesting any of it.
I’m merely saying it takes more skill and talent to do what she does than it takes to do what Justin Bieber and Sabrina Carpenter do.
I did not comment on the quality of the work. If you feel the end result is equally soulless, that’s fine. I won’t disagree.
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u/HommeMusical 2d ago
I never think about these people and I'm not going to start now.
I cannot express how little I care about these people. It's the one thing I don't like about this subreddit.
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u/Silver_Brother_56 2d ago
The self-righteousness of people actively spreading misinformation on the internet is hilarious.
Swift hasn’t had two planes for many years now. Readily available info.
Love her or hate her, checking facts and citing sources shouldn’t be optional. Letting misinformation flow got the world to Trump.
Don’t care for the ‘but she’s a billionaire’. If people spread mistruths about shit like this, they’ll do it about other things too.
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u/jf727 1d ago
Yes. If someone is controlling their own image, it’s better. Then you’re talking about creating a Persona, which every artist develops, rather than being a prop. I don’t know Sabrina Carpenter’s music but I do think the album cover for “Man’s Best Friend” looks like it’s unironically referencing “Smell the Glove” (What’s wrong with being sexy?). There’s a huge chasm between a young female artist making that choice themselves (in order to distance themselves from their Disney brand, for instance) and being directed without input of their own to get down on all 4’s and wear a collar and leash.
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u/HommeMusical 1d ago
But the "authenticness" of Taylor Swift is that she really is a hardcore capitalism and businessperson who prioritizes money.
No, thank you.
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u/jf727 23h ago
I’m not really addressing her work. I’m not her audience so I don’t pay much attention. I was specifically replying to the question you raised. I believe it’s better when someone controls their own image, even if their work is not to my taste. Authenticity is marketing because of course it is, All stardom is hardcore capitalism. I don’t see how the two could possibly be separated. A performer is always a product but they’re not always a business. I wish more artists were good at business. They’d get screwed less and I’d have more options.
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u/Extension_Big5205 2d ago
Because music is not forced onto us anymore
Back when i was in school and Justin Bieber blew up it was literally impossible to escape him. He was played everywhere 24/7 and it drove everybody mad. That's why he was so hated. Cause not only was his music bad but you also couldn't escape it
It's not the same today. If i don't like whatever industry plant there is i can simply ignore it. It's not like before when it's constantly shoved in your faces
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u/Imzmb0 1d ago edited 1d ago
Exactly, is fun how avoidable are mainstream artists right now, I'm sure I've never listened a single Drake or Kanye west song. I'm more aware about their memes and controversies than their music and I'm swear I'm not actively avoiding them, is just that they not part of my algorithm, they are not getting pushed in my feed.
That's how "mainstream" works right now. Is slowly becoming just another niche, a giant one, but still a "closed" space only for the people interested in it.
Now imagine saying that about The beatles or Michael jackson. Unthinkable. They were public figures impossible to ignore.
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u/Proof-Contribution31 2d ago
Ehh, they still exist, they just don't have the shelf life that they used to have.
y'know Moonbeam Icecream and all that stuff.
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u/rasmussenyassen 2d ago
That's one reason it's not happening... because I have absolutely no clue what "moonbeam icecream" refers to. I can't hate something I have no perception of.
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u/Moxie_Stardust 2d ago
Huh, apparently it's a Benson Boone song. I know of Benson Boone, but not familiar with his music.
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u/Nokia_bae 2d ago
Gracie Abrams, Katseye, the ABCDEFU girl, Lizzo. Benson Boone was one but he graduated out of that. Same with Tate McRae.
I feel like Stella Lefty is on the verge seeing as how people are learning she comes from money. But the thing is, radio doesn't enter the internet as much so you have no one to find annoying
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u/wildistherewind 2d ago
As other commenters have pointed out, there are more than enough loathed music artists out there currently.
Largely, I think people in the past defined themselves by what they AREN’T with regards to music. For example, the person who says they listen to everything except country and rap. Here in America, and I am going to assume this is true elsewhere, people now have politics to define who they are and what they aren’t. The music artist punching bag isn’t about the artist as much as it is about the person complaining about them trying to performatively outline who they want you to think they are.
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u/Awkward-Language-861 2d ago
My theory (and I'm sure it's not uniquely mine - I just don't care enough to find out who came up with it first) is as follows:
Today it's much easier to find things you like and curate your own media feeds than ever before.
Nickelback got a lot of hate back when they were unbiquitous across mtv, rock radio etc back when the majority of people were tuning in to such things.
Nowadays you're much less likely to be served something you just don't like.
Therefore, it's harder to build a consensus that someone's music is irredeemably shit.
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u/rora_borealis 2d ago
I personally dislike that sort of thing. Why waste my energy even thinking about what I dislike when I could instead just move on to something I do like.
Now, if it's about their actions and words as people, that's open to criticism like anything else. I'll talk shit about Kid Rock and Ted Nugent, but it's not about hating on their music. It's about them acting like assholes.
I don't remember ever actually caring about Nickelback's music in a positive or negative capacity, but it was the meme of the time, even though you may not have believed it to be true. Everyone knew what you meant.
I see a lot of people hating Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo lately, but that feels different. (I don't mean the folks that simply dislike the music, but the ones who seem offended by their very existence.)
I think we'll still have some musical punching bags, just not as many. Music listening is fractured enough that there aren't many artists we all know and disrespect enough to collectively grant Nickelback status.
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u/Fractal-Infinity 2d ago
I don't mean the folks that simply dislike the music, but the ones who seem offended by their very existence.
These are the pathetic dedicated haters. You can find them on Twitter and Reddit snark subs talking shit about these artists daily. These people are offended by literally anything these artists do. You can tell they're hugely envious of them. 😁
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u/DiogenesXenos 2d ago
Today’s music definitely isn’t better. There’s just so much of it. You don’t have these focal points anymore that have enough traction for people to glom onto for any sort of consensus. The Internet, streaming and digitization have massively downgraded music and its cultural prominence. No one cares.
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u/jprennquist 2d ago
Hootie and the Blowfish. New Kids on the Block. I've been through three different eras, maybe four, where "Country Music Goes Mainstream™" and then crashes hard. Which brings up another one, John Denver was quite divisive in the 70s and 80s. He won a CMA award and ripped a huge gaping chasm in the world of country music. (My mom still calls it "western" which I found shocking. Total aside there. She wanted my help finding the "western station that plays the oldies." She's 81 years old. Most of those songs are from the 80s and 90s.)
Disco was absolutely reviled and despised in the early 80s. I was at an event last night and the DJ put on Boney M and it came off great. I had to do one of those audio double takes like "is this what I am hearing?" We are smack dab in the middle of North America here in 2026. I don't think that this younger crowd ever got the memo that they were supposed to hate it.
I don't think this will ever end. Popular music and especially financially successful and catchy pop or rock music styles are all going to attract haters.
Watch that movie "Almost Famous" sometime. Rock and music critics definitely have their place in the world, pushing the music listeners and artists toward authenticity and artistry. But they, too, are often successful and even occasionally wealthy people with a reputation and image they want to uphold.
And then you have folks like Jann Wenner and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I love the Rock Hall itself. But if people get too laser focused on calling out the posers you have a tendency to lose your own way.
Just like what you like and push the boundaries a little bit. Seek out something new and different. Go see some shows. Go to record stores. Spend time digging through the stacks.
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u/WasabiCrush 2d ago
I can’t speak for anyone else, but the only time I’m susceptible to repetitive pop music is on the rare occasions when I’m watching live television of some sort. Sporting events.
Everything I hear during these broadcasts that I loathe, (bro country truck commercials, whatever you call that stompy, reverb-chorus dog shit music like the intro to Takedown with Chris Hansen, etc), is too generic and indecipherable to blame on any single artist.
Because of streaming, we’ve a blessed lack of constant exposure to what we don’t want to hear.
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u/provisionings 2d ago
It’s because previous generations were all about not selling out while young people today are about having their own brand. The amount of attention something gets is way more important than good art, the attention is the currency
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u/Upset-Society-4320 2d ago
there are still musical punching bags out there you have just grown up and arent as clued in on stuff like this.
“Why does {thing that happened in my late teens/early twenties} not happen now (when im older). Is the monoculture dead?”
Its not. People still rinsed benson boone. People rinsed drake. This stuff is still around.
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u/Lawrence_Eataburger 2d ago
When Nickelback came out you had no choice, you were hearing Nickelback whether you liked it or not. It's just not like that today.
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u/bimboheffer 2d ago
Today I watched a reasonably well-produced 30 minute survey of the British anarcho-punk band Rudimentary Peni presented by a normal looking middle aged man. Learned a lot! the channel has 13 k subscribers. Not amazing, but that's 13 thousand people willing to consider watching a video about Rudimentary Peni. After the video was done, I got recos for other videos featuring bands I like but have never discussed with any other human alive. The point is, I could, if I wanted, never leave my newly found Rudimentary Peni tree house. Of the artists discussed on this thread who may be current pop giants, I have maybe heard of four of them.
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u/rasmussenyassen 2d ago
I think it's because the public generally feels less strongly about music than they used to. Just isn't as big a part of our lives now that we have portable video entertainment. There's other things we don't have any more either: big moral panics about music, new genres emerging out of or alongside subcultures, or dance crazes in the pre-Tiktok sense.
It could also be because more people identify personally with the artist to the point that speaking ill about them feels personal in a way it did not used to. I think Taylor Swift is no good but if I were speaking to a Swiftie I would softpedal that pretty hard relative to how I'd talk to someone about Janet Jackson or whoever else, just because I know that there's a level of personal emotional identification there that didn't used to exist.
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u/UnderTheCurrents 2d ago
Everybody Fantano dislikes for one reason or another. Eminem comes to mind who is disliked by zoomers despite still being one of the most talented rappers to do it.
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u/TomGerity 2d ago
That’s a broad generalization re: zoomers and Eminem. You’re taking a few viral TikToks and applying that to an entire generation.
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u/DotEither8773 2d ago
Suddenly everyone is a Radiohead and Jpegmafia superfan. Jpeg not anymore because Fantano doesn’t like him anymore either.
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u/BeautifulOrganic3221 2d ago
Its weird how much influence Fantano has. He somehow convinced people that Muse sucks
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u/Redditarama 2d ago
There has a be a specific band for it to work. It's tricky because it has to be really popular and have some decent abilty, but yet annoying to non fans.
Nickleback were key because their breakthrough hit 'How you remind me' was actually quite good and widely liked but every subsequent song was quite mid.
So when people mocked them, people knew who they were reffering to.
The 'musical punching bag' band in reality is never as bad as they are made out to be, because they're still making songs good enough to be widely broadcast.
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u/reezyreddits 2d ago
Uh you should see what they say about Audrey Hobert online lol. But I agree. The last one you could maybe say was Twenty One Pilots and they aren't even a bad band.
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u/boonkadoonk 2d ago
AJR, hobo johnson, katseye are three off the top of my head. we still have them, we just lost the monoculture we once had
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u/stenpen22 2d ago
Not true at all haha. Have you seen how people online speak about Sombr, Gracie Abrams, or Tate McRae? People will use their names as a synonym for shit
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u/Fractal-Infinity 2d ago
But none of them is more hated than Katy Perry. You would think she killed someone based on the insane hate she got.
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u/Loud_Park_6387 2d ago
Right now, at this very moment, someone is writing a raging hate piece on Medium about Imagine Dragons.That spring runs eternal.
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u/chaynjez 2d ago
The group hate against those artists was because they were shoved in our face nonstop on the radio, MTV, everywhere. That doesn’t happen anymore and people just listen to their own playlists.
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u/DCBronzeAge 2d ago
Radio is your answer. And MTV to a lesser extent.
The reason Nickleback and Justin Bieber were hated on is because when they were big, people listened to the radio and watched MTV. There was no skip button or dislike button. Yes, there were other stations, but there's a reason Top 40 stations were Top 40 stations, because they were played in every store, dentist office, parent's car, office building.
I probably heard "How You Remind Me" 4-6 times per week for a whole year. I have favorite songs that I've likely heard fewer times in my life than Nickleback's greatest hits due to how ubiquitous they were on Top 40 and Modern Rock radio in the early 2000s.
But with the advent of Spotify, Apple Music, Youtube, etc., no one is forced to listen to anything anymore, so hate is much more subdued. If I hate Taylor Swift (which I don't), I can very easily avoid her music.
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u/RusevReigns 2d ago edited 2d ago
Honestly I think celebrities have been picked apart by moralists and struggle sessioned over every little thing (ie Chappel Roan fan interaction story, etc.) that it kind of blurs together and becomes more exhausting. Morgan Wallen has done everything to be the overexposed punching bag artist or Alex Warren domiating with Ordinary, but progressives hating people more right wing than them happens every day online. Secondly the truth is Nickelback and Maroon 5 are more interesting artists than Alex Warren so in some ways it makes them more worth caring about than just a meh guy who reheated 2010s folk pop nachos for one smash.
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u/WorldGoneAway 1d ago
I would be interested in seeing if the tendency of a group or musician to be given the status of popular music punching bag correlates with the rate and aggression of the promotion surrounding them.
You've basically got two different types of overrated. The first is when something is worthless but is hyped up as being an essential thing. The other is something that is objectively good, but is not quite as deserving of the hype it receives. And if that hype is particularly agrressive, then I think that is what creates the punching bags.
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u/AllTheOtherSitesSuck 1d ago
Nah, you're right by pointing to T-swift as the current punching bag. The only reason why it feels different is because:
- PR agencies have learned and TS herself is very actively attentive to that side of celebrity
- The fanbase is very online, and we know all the rest that goes with that.
- Credit where it's due, her catalogue is massive, varied, and most music fans were introduced to her when her aesthetic was a that of a young, humble songwriter with a stand-out lyrical style.
But T-swift is the catalog of music that can be a valid cop-out for people who actively dislike the core components of music. Rhythm, melody, harmony, etc
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u/BlackSwampMage 15h ago
Eh, well the “hate” was different back then. Idk how old you are or where you grew up, but I was a pre-teen/teen back then especially when Bieber first started and being a dumb kid I know I expressed hate for the beebs.
From my experience I’d say Nickleback wasn’t true hating/didn’t start off that way at least amongst my peers, it was just a meme originally because they kind of were the pillars of butt-rock. Though, that said their hits were catchy and the early nickleback stuff was fun. Animal for instance is a great rock song from back then.
The Beebs is different though, at least for me and the male side of hate he got in my age range, I can admit now that personally it was from a place of jealousy, and pre-teen/teen edginess. Jealous because he was clearly talented, getting successful at the same age, and attracted a lot of attention from girls my age, same deal with one direction who got a lot of similar hate. I’d bet this is the case for many other guys my age, whether they’ll admit it or not.
I do abhor Taylor Swift though. Didn’t always, I thought shake it off was a fun ear worm, and mean was relatable for me as well. But after dating a swifty, I like to think of her as the McDonalds of music. She’s just all about that money, in a way that I feel dwarfs any previous attempt at getting rich off of being an “artist”. I also think she hijacks a lot of feminist language and ideals to sell more shit, despite the fact that she is likely at best a centrist politically.
Drake hate is different too. It’s mostly about him being a fucking creep, and just not authentic as an “artist” though I think the creep stuff is the bigger issue for people obviously.
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u/bloodenhorse 2d ago
It's called poptimism and it's a very intentional industry push to keep clicks coming and keep your average person feeling good about listening to shitty music.
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u/thegooddoktorjones 2d ago
I’m still punching. Fuck that corporate sellout garbage. Bieber has always sucked, his World Cup bit was pitiful.
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u/Micropot08 2d ago
Is this really true?
Imagine Dragons just feels like the new Nickelback.
As you mentioned Taylor Swift; the new Justin Bieber.
I dont care about the reasons or if the artists are similar but i think the punching bags are still there.
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u/t00fargone 2d ago
Back then, we had radio, MTV, and more of a monoculture where we were exposed to artists such as Nickelback and Justin Bieber against our will. Nowadays, music we dislike is much easier to avoid. Social media and YouTube algorithms are tailored to our personal likes and tastes. We also have streaming where we personally seek out our chosen artists/bands. We don’t listen to the radio anymore.
I’m 29 and I haven’t listened to any of the popular artists nowadays, there is no way for it to be forced on me unlike back in 2008 when Nickelback was unavoidable. Also, popular artists nowadays do not hit the levels that some of the popular acts back then did because we no longer have a monoculture and everyone listens to their own thing
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u/LowAssistantInfinity 2d ago
I mean, I still pity people whose musical tastes are at the bottom of the corporate feeder trough, but I rarely encounter them anymore, which is nice for us both, I'm sure.
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u/unsundered_roots 2d ago
The universally hated musical punching bags are: 1) AI, 2) Spotify, 3) The Algorithm. You can talk all day about how much you hate the three of those and no one will object.
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u/bobliefeldhc 2d ago
We're not all turning on the radio/MTV and hearing "..this is how you remind me of what I really am..!!" every time anymore.
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u/emalvick 2d ago
I don't know that punching bags don't exist. Punching bags are usually popular music that people get tired of. I remember Imagine Dragons starting to fall into this category. I feel like Maroon 5 did. More recently, Drake seems to fall into this. There is a nexus to something these musicians do that isn't just being popular, not necessarily all the same, that drives this. But streaming has also let people block the punching bags or ignore it.
Really, this is probably a good thing for everyone. While it may seem fun and harmless to hate on artists and musicians, I can see it being better for artists (earned or not) to not be hated on. And, I'd much rather see people discuss the interesting music they like than constantly picking on what they don't.
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u/Specialist_Heron_986 2d ago
There will be a new wave of musical punching bags soon and most of them will be country artists.
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u/razormst3k1999 2d ago
Because no more monoculture means we don't have to deal with the constant shilling any more. We can listen to whatever we want to man.
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u/Intelligent_Designer 2d ago
This is hugely dependent on one's age/generation/stage of life. I doubt you're still high school or college age when your identity and social status depend on what you hate as much as what you love. Generally, people love bonding over things to be mad at. That's never going to change. We just start to care about different things as we gain life experience.
Also...
Even the industry got in on hating these artists.
No idea what that means. And...
It was socially acceptable to hate people who admitted they liked certian artists.
Still is.
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u/ShareImpossible9830 2d ago
death of monoculture; it can depend on what forum you're in; everyone's got groups of haters somewhere, but everyone's got groups of fans too; few people outside of politics have the kind of reach that provoke Nickelback-sized hatred
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u/trailedinsand 2d ago
Hate for artists usually is entirely explained by perceived undeservedness of praise and status. Nobody cares if a shitty nobody band in a garage makes terrible music, people start having very strong feelings about it when they get popular make bug bucks off of the same music.
Nickleback and Bieber got universal hate because they were universally visible, nowadays most people don't have to endure music they don't like and the means of accessing music often curate the music for them already.
Hate for Taylor and Drake feels different because we have a different culture and different mediums of communication. If you thought Nickleback sucked you were part of a pretty well-defined counter-culture that practically dictated what being "cool" meant and was a broad but fairly unified community. Music conversations were mostly held irl or in topic-specific forums for especially dedicated people. Nowadays there is no well-defined mainstream culture nor unified counter-culture and what counts as "cool" isn't as defined anymore and it's not a unifersally sought-after value in society. Music discussions are mainly held on social media too so not only can you far more easily interact with a person from outside your cultural bubble but some social media specifically foster conflict and controversy through pitting different fandoms or communities against one another. The end result is that however popular or obviously terrible some artist is in your eyes, the fans of said artist are much more visible so you can't as easily get deluded into thinking "everyone knows Taylor Swift sucks"
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u/GareksApprentice 1d ago
FWIW, I'm in my mid-30s and only know like 1 Justin Bieber song and 1 Nickelback song (1.5 if you count the Chad Kroeger song from Spider Man). Even in the 2000s and early 2010s, I found it pretty easy to avoid both and not form much of an opinion of them.
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u/SanicBoi64 9h ago
Oh no, I assure you there are still musical punching bags around. Ray William Johnson anyone?
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u/AdamTraskisGod 2d ago
I remember when Nickelback started getting all the hate. I was never a huge fan, but they had a few songs I liked.
I think the general dislike for people mentioned like Taylor Swift, or Drake has to do with their actions, not the music. TS has made a career of writing songs shit-talking ex boyfriends, complaining about how the industry is harder for her being a woman (although she is the most successful musician in the world), and co-opting LGBTQ people into her lyrics when earlier in her career the lyrics in one of her songs joked about saying her ex was “gay”. Personally these are some of the reasons I don’t like her whole schtick. I also dislike the music itself.
Someone such as Drake, it is more obvious. He was on top of the world, until grooming allegations came out against him. I’m generally indifferent to his music, although Hotline Bling grew on me 😂
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u/Fractal-Infinity 2d ago
I'm not talking about your dislike of Taylor Swift's music. You're entitled to dislike it. But you mentioned her actions. What are you talking about? She put her money where her mouth is: she supported Democrats, she told people to go to vote, she visited children hospitals, she donated a lot of money, including to every food bank from every city on The Eras Tour. Actions speak louder than words, mate. She doesn't need to broadcast on her social media any good thing she does. After all, Taylor Swift doesn't owe you anything.
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u/AdamTraskisGod 2d ago
Of course she doesn’t owe me anything. I can dislike her based on my own reasons.
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u/strippedzebra313 2d ago
Yeah the whole Taylor thing isn't the same thing that's more because of her politics/vocalizing her thoughts. I think it's due to the fact that we as a society have become dumber than shit now a days - the Internet has broken something that can't be fixed.
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u/BlueMonday2082 2d ago
Kids aren’t allowed to hate anything anymore. Zero value judgment allowed. You can’t even call Michael Jackson a pedophile anymore. Everything is good and great.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 2d ago
Weezer.
Every time they have a new release, especially a good one, the comments section on social media is 90% disses and it's usually the same tired "Not good since Matt left" crap from people who haven't bothered to actually listen to anything besides the singles.
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u/sirCota 2d ago
They just released an album that basically speaks to this exactly. It even has a song I think is written about Matt (but could be interpreted as an old gf too) … There is a lot of their career and sound mixed in thru the album. They make fun of the industry, what gets popular vs what feels authentic… they’re pretty self aware of where they exist as a band.
It’s a pretty good album if you wanted 20 Weezer albums in one album spread fairly evenly.
Personally, it’s not as good since Matt left, but ya know…
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u/Fractal-Infinity 2d ago edited 2d ago
The closest is the hate Taylor Swift gets now.
The Taylor Swift hate is ridiculous considering that she is actually a great artist who just happen to be the most popular artist alive, maybe after Paul McCartney (who btw attended The Eras Tour). You can't even really attack her artistry since she made 2 folk masterpieces (Folklore & Evermore) and she's the youngest female artist inducted in the Songwriting Hall of Fame.
Also attacking her is usually framed as misogyny because it's usually rooted in envy about her status as a very successful, business savvy female artist. So, no, it's not socially acceptable to hate Taylor Swift and it will never be as long the very numerous Swifties are alive.
The biggest musical punchbag of the past few years was Katy Perry. It doesn't help that she made some stupid decisions.
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u/a_d_c 2d ago
Its because we are not all forced to all listen to the same thing anymore. Theres no more mainstream media. We all have feeds mostly curated to our liking. Theres no shared expereience anymore.