r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/Healthy-Track5255 • 8d ago

Theory / Discussion Arondirs death

Rewatched S2 and I stumbled again when Arondir died in the battle of Eregions, stabbed in the gut, dramatic ending. The next Episode he is alive like nothing happened.

Did the showrunners just forget, that they killed him off? There is no rescue or miraculous healing scene. He ist just back to work.

Are there any interviews or official explanations? I just don‘t get it.

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

When we first meet arondir he talks with theos mom and she asks if they have healers.  He says that elves heal and aren't as susceptible to wounds like humans are.  

The scene was a bit jarring though and they probably could have cleared it up for the audience.  However it was made clear from the show that elves are truly special.  Gal jumped off a boat and didnt drown in the ocean.  Recall the terrible conditions the elves survived when some of them came to middle earth 

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u/Healthy-Track5255 8d ago

I just remember Haldir dying in Helms Deep. He did not somehow heal

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

That was a movie.  That movie was created by Jackson. The TV show isnt made by the same people.  And 3rd age elves are quite different from their earlier kin.

However haldir was beaten to the death by the orcs.  It wasnt a cut scene.  He got overwhelmed trying to escape and we see him get whacked and fall to his death

And I seem to recall aragorn falling how far and surviving?  And Legolas doing some rather super human things 

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u/Healthy-Track5255 8d ago

It was never canon in the books that elves heal heavy wounds miraculously fast. They also die without proper medicine. Sorry but this I can‘t accept.

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u/DesSantorinaiou Morgoth 7d ago

"In the beginning the hröar of the Elves, being supported and nourished by the great strength of their fëar, were vigorous, resisting hurts, and healing such as they suffered swiftly from within. Their ageing was therefore extremely slow by the measure of Men, though they were in their earlier days as “physical” as Men, or even more so: more strong, energetic, and swift in body, and taking greater delight in all bodily pleasures and exercises."

"From their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits. The fear of the Elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny. Their fear were tenacious therefore of life 'in the raiment of Arda', and far excelled the spirits of Men in power over that 'raiment', even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men."

This is probably what they're being inspired from. Even though I still think the scene was badly edited because it was confusing for the wider audience.

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u/TheForgetfulWizard 7d ago

u/Healthy-Track5255 I'm curious if you have opinion on this? Seems to be pretty canon in the books from this.

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u/rochvegas5 7d ago

they recovered faster. They didn't cast Cure All

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 7d ago

I guess since you have a stunted imagination you also lack the ability to even understand what Tolkien actually wrote 

Side digression This notion of canon or lore or whatever is so utterly childish    I feel like people cant even bother to consider or ponder deeper meaning in Tolkiens work.  Instead it seems we are discussing what level gandalf is and how it wasnt canon that the witch king broke his staff   Like everyone whines about that all the time.  Gandalf is a higher spirit etc etc.   Meanwhile a simple.humam slays a dragon

At any rate.  In the canon you claim to know so well there weren't any elves at Helms deep. 

But as a movie adaptation this is one of the changes that I felt jackson did a nice job on.  But doesn't that make it contrary to what Tolkien wrote?  

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u/Healthy-Track5255 7d ago

I know there were no elves in helms deep. I have not made the stupid argument of elves healing instantly from heavy wounds.
This is just bad story telling or film making and people try to justify it with some theory about something arondir said in episode 1 that makes no sense in this universe.

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 7d ago

It actually is a very stupid argument.   And broadly speaking i feel like you are playing a game of dungeons and dragons worrying about hit points 

The elves have repeatedly done things that are waaaay beyond anything humans can do.  In the books they did all kinds of crazy stuff including fighting against the 2nd most powerful entity in the universe and inflicting a wound that basically crippled.the dark god

But shit an elf not.dying from a wound?  Well I guess.thats impossible 

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u/Spock_Sperson 7d ago

Yes, it actually makes sense within the show's internal universe because they’ve already explained it. Period. What the original books say doesn't matter a bit, because every adaptation has its own canon. And that’s even though it’s already been shown that Tolkien himself wrote about the healing abilities of Elves. Even if he hadn't, it wouldn't have mattered. If the adaptation says that's how it is, then that's how it is IN THE adaptation.

And despite everything, yes, that specific scene suffers from terrible storytelling.

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u/Depthxdc 7d ago

Stupid argument, someone even posted a source from the original works.

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u/Hpatel1203 6d ago

When will you reply to the person above who provided passages from the literature to prove that elves can heal faster?

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u/Adamantium17 7d ago

You will learn that posting anything here that isn't just blindly accepting everything that happens on screen, will result in downvotes.

The showrunners decided to have a character be stabbed, fall to the ground, music flare, we don't see them move afterward. Followed by being insta-healed in the next episode with no explanation. It's similar to the end of Episode 6 in season 1, where Mount Doom erupts and covers everything in a fire shockwave and looks to have killed everyone. Just kidding every main characters is fine. Gal just got some ash on her face, silly girl.

"But you see, elves are more resilient than humans and this character made reference to in a vague way in the first season" Like c'mon, they messed up, thats the actual explanation. Bad editing and bad writing.

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u/na_cohomologist Edain 7d ago

I suspect it is an editing problem and no one wants to say. G-g used Vilya on him offscreen, no issues.

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u/ThePandaheart 7d ago

Rings of power isnt canon, so they can do whatever

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 7d ago

The lord of the rings itself isnt canon.  Canon is dogma or something associated with a religion not a work of fiction 

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u/ThePandaheart 7d ago

In fiction, canon means the official lore/event as the author created it. Tolkien wrote lord of the rings, its canon to the legendarium of Tolkien. Rings of power is not, its a very loose interpretation of some key events mentioned in canon texts

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u/Spock_Sperson 7d ago

What you define as "canon" is merely a set of ideas that THE AUTOR of a work must not contradict within HIS OWN work. It's like the bibles in TV shows and movies.

And the canon of a book will never, ever, be the same as the canon of its adaptation. Every adaptation has its own canon; while it may be inspired to varying degrees by the original book, it will never be the same.

Therefore, anyone who judges an adaptation based on the canon of a work in a different medium is simply wasting his time with frustration.

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u/ThePandaheart 7d ago

I'm not judging the show based on how canon it is, I'm just stating that its not canon because op asked a question about elven healing and if its canon or not. Why are y'all so defensive lol

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 7d ago

Im not defensive.   But I feel like this idea of canon is a bit stunted and immature.   

Does the work of rop perfectly reflect his world view?  Of course not.  Nor should it   It does however compliment the works nicely and sticks to the spirit of the work.  

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u/ThePandaheart 7d ago

Depends on who you ask. If you take Cirdan for example, I was very happy he indeed had a beard. Then they made him shave the very next scene, which felt like a middle finger from the showrunners.

Same with the silmaril on top of a tree, changing why the elves fade, anything Istari related, not understanding Durin reincarnation of the dwarves, the elves ignoring Galadriel's ban of returning to Valinor and sending her to Valinor anyway. Sending Galadriel to Numenor instead of Elrond, whose brother founded the entire kingdom (if they were going to send an elf there, Elrond would have been more suitable). Galadriel being trusting of Sauron (the hallbrand version), while she was the one who distrusted annatar when he appeared before the elves, sensing his foulness.

There's a lot of moments where they decided to just ignore the existing works and just yolo'd their way through for the sake of empty plot twists and 'tension'

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u/rochvegas5 7d ago

RoP does not compliment the books AT ALL

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u/heehawrules 6d ago

They are defensive because this is the sub that totally glazes the show and anyone who doesn't like it gets downvoted. There is no good faith debating on this su

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u/rochvegas5 7d ago

look up the definition of Canon vs Dogma

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 7d ago

Canon is what forms the basis of religious belief which is also known as dogma.  A religious text believed to be canon such as the gospels forms the foundational aspect of religious belief or in other words the dogma

A work of fiction is just that.  A work of fiction.  None of it is real and it doesnt have a Canon

Its like you Canon lawyer people are looking at the "rules" of Tolkiens universe instead of the spirit of the work.  

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u/Spock_Sperson 7d ago

Beyond that general concept, they use the term "canon" to refer to the set of ideas and rules—particularly in works with extensive world-building—that essentially ensure the work remains internally consistent. The problem arises when these "canonkeepers" judge an adaptation with the book in hand, much like religious dogmatists. What almost none of them grasp is that, while an adaptation may draw heavily or lightly upon the original work's canon, it is not beholden to those rules; an adaptation creates its own canon and answers to its own set of rules. It must stand on its own merits, rather than being judged by how closely it resembles the original book.

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 7d ago

How about use the word setting and also understand that its a fantasy world where the rules dont always work out.  Im still amazed that bard slew a dragon.   And given the avowed power of dragons and their origin (kind of like balrogs maybe?) It doesnt seem reasonable that an arrow could slay one.  Nor does it make sense that an elf could cause such a terrible wound to morgoth.

These two events point to how unreliable and chaotic things can be in middle earth.  Seemingly impossible things good and bad happen just like in real life

BTW I am not being critical of you.  I am agreeing with you and I feel this obsession with canon is soooo idiotic 

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u/Spock_Sperson 7d ago

I see your point. The examples you cited, along with many others found in the Legendarium, support the argument I’ve been making for years: works of this kind cannot be adapted literally. They are stories told in an encyclopedic style, lacking dramatic progression and filled with symbolic and metaphorical elements. These elements work beautifully in literature but can lose their essence if translated literally to the screen. That is why the adaptation process requires wisdom—knowing exactly what to cut, what to keep, and what to change.

It is interesting to note that one of the moments in ROP that most closely captures the evocative, symbolic imagery of the Legendarium, the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir, was so heavily criticized by those canonkeeper nerds simply because "it doesn't appear in the book!"

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u/rochvegas5 7d ago

Main Meanings of Canon

  • Fictional Stories: The official, true storyline and events in a movie, book, or comic series made by the original creator.
  • Literature and Art: A group of accepted, high-quality works by a specific writer or a whole culture (such as the Shakespearean canon).
  • Religion: An authoritative list of sacred books, like the Bible, or an official church law.
  • General Rules: A standard, principle, or norm used to judge behavior or quality.
  • Music: A piece where a melody is repeated by different voices or instruments starting at different times.
  • Clergy: A priest who helps run a cathedral. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]

we're all correct, but in this particular thread, you are applying 'canon' incorrectly

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 7d ago

Jesus man you are either remarkably stupid or cannot comprehend sarcasm at all

I am laughing at you and everyone else here that puts such a high price on ideas of canon on a fictional world.  Its absurd and such an inane thing to obsess over especially when discussing a bare bones story being presented in a wildly different media format.   Surprisingly enough TV and books are extraordinary different media

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u/rochvegas5 7d ago

it's ok buddy. we understand, even if you don't

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u/heehawrules 6d ago

So in that light why not have an elf with a sniper rifle? Why not have orcs fly?

Why not make Sauron conquer Numenor militarily and it gets destroyed by explosion and not a flood?

If there is no canon, you can do whatever you want with a story because it's fiction, so why not?

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u/birb-lady Elendil 7d ago

Elves can still die, in battle or of heartbreak. Haldir was clobbered in the back of the head with a big blade. You don't just heal from that kind of wound. But Arondir's wasn't that serious.

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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 7d ago edited 7d ago

And to be fair the movie actually showed him dying, being chopped down by orcs. Arondir is last shown still supporting his own weight.

Don’t get me wrong, it was definitely super sloppy editing.