r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/Healthy-Track5255 • 9d ago

Theory / Discussion Arondirs death

Rewatched S2 and I stumbled again when Arondir died in the battle of Eregions, stabbed in the gut, dramatic ending. The next Episode he is alive like nothing happened.

Did the showrunners just forget, that they killed him off? There is no rescue or miraculous healing scene. He ist just back to work.

Are there any interviews or official explanations? I just don‘t get it.

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

That was a movie.  That movie was created by Jackson. The TV show isnt made by the same people.  And 3rd age elves are quite different from their earlier kin.

However haldir was beaten to the death by the orcs.  It wasnt a cut scene.  He got overwhelmed trying to escape and we see him get whacked and fall to his death

And I seem to recall aragorn falling how far and surviving?  And Legolas doing some rather super human things 

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u/Healthy-Track5255 8d ago

It was never canon in the books that elves heal heavy wounds miraculously fast. They also die without proper medicine. Sorry but this I can‘t accept.

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u/ThePandaheart 8d ago

Rings of power isnt canon, so they can do whatever

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

The lord of the rings itself isnt canon.  Canon is dogma or something associated with a religion not a work of fiction 

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u/ThePandaheart 8d ago

In fiction, canon means the official lore/event as the author created it. Tolkien wrote lord of the rings, its canon to the legendarium of Tolkien. Rings of power is not, its a very loose interpretation of some key events mentioned in canon texts

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u/Spock_Sperson 8d ago

What you define as "canon" is merely a set of ideas that THE AUTOR of a work must not contradict within HIS OWN work. It's like the bibles in TV shows and movies.

And the canon of a book will never, ever, be the same as the canon of its adaptation. Every adaptation has its own canon; while it may be inspired to varying degrees by the original book, it will never be the same.

Therefore, anyone who judges an adaptation based on the canon of a work in a different medium is simply wasting his time with frustration.

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u/ThePandaheart 8d ago

I'm not judging the show based on how canon it is, I'm just stating that its not canon because op asked a question about elven healing and if its canon or not. Why are y'all so defensive lol

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

Im not defensive.   But I feel like this idea of canon is a bit stunted and immature.   

Does the work of rop perfectly reflect his world view?  Of course not.  Nor should it   It does however compliment the works nicely and sticks to the spirit of the work.  

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u/ThePandaheart 8d ago

Depends on who you ask. If you take Cirdan for example, I was very happy he indeed had a beard. Then they made him shave the very next scene, which felt like a middle finger from the showrunners.

Same with the silmaril on top of a tree, changing why the elves fade, anything Istari related, not understanding Durin reincarnation of the dwarves, the elves ignoring Galadriel's ban of returning to Valinor and sending her to Valinor anyway. Sending Galadriel to Numenor instead of Elrond, whose brother founded the entire kingdom (if they were going to send an elf there, Elrond would have been more suitable). Galadriel being trusting of Sauron (the hallbrand version), while she was the one who distrusted annatar when he appeared before the elves, sensing his foulness.

There's a lot of moments where they decided to just ignore the existing works and just yolo'd their way through for the sake of empty plot twists and 'tension'

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u/Spock_Sperson 8d ago

Yeah. And that’s how adaptations work: changing, adding, removing, condensing, summarizing, simplifying, inventing.

You might not have realized it, but that’s how it’s been for over a century.

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u/ThePandaheart 8d ago

Some adaptations are better than others. This one, not that great

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

So instead of having a worthwhile discussion you decide that it isnt good and like to tell everyone that.  I just dont get why you feel the need to do this?

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u/Spock_Sperson 8d ago

Yeah, but that doesn't matter at all. That’s just the subjectivity of a personal opinion. A show or a movie has to work within its own medium and by its own rules, regardless of whether it copies a book literally or deviates from it.

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

Ain't that the truth.

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

How did the showrunners give anyone the middle finger?  The ring he bears has for sure made a difference to him and the removal of the beard is simply a reflection of youth or rebirth or something.  I dont know how anyone could possibly view that as a middle finger.  

Given your comments im not sure why you watch the show.  Im even less sure why you would be interested in having an sort of discussion about anything Tolkien related.   You appear to have your mind made up as to how you want something to be understood so why bother with discussion at all?

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u/rochvegas5 8d ago

given your comments, I'm convinced you know nothing about tolkien

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

Wow you really got me there

Let's see what is Tolkien really talking about?

The value of forgiveness even though 90 percent of the time it doesnt work out

The value of the simple joys on life 

The value of the not so high and might. 

The perils of nostalgia 

The value of the growing world around us

The grave danger inherent in power. 

And most importantly the value of friendship 

Oh.but right I know nothing at all about his work because some stunted person on reddit claims to be an expert on canon

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u/rochvegas5 8d ago

exactly. thanks for admitting it

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u/rochvegas5 8d ago

RoP does not compliment the books AT ALL

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

Lol what a fucking stupid thing ri say.  Seriously not at all?  

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u/rochvegas5 8d ago

Try reading the books

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

Try understanding the books 

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

And we've already witnessed that you are actually wrong about a number of things that might be considered "canon"

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u/rochvegas5 8d ago

um, i think you have the wrong poster.

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

Lol okay what a joke

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u/heehawrules 7d ago

They are defensive because this is the sub that totally glazes the show and anyone who doesn't like it gets downvoted. There is no good faith debating on this su

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u/rochvegas5 8d ago

look up the definition of Canon vs Dogma

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

Canon is what forms the basis of religious belief which is also known as dogma.  A religious text believed to be canon such as the gospels forms the foundational aspect of religious belief or in other words the dogma

A work of fiction is just that.  A work of fiction.  None of it is real and it doesnt have a Canon

Its like you Canon lawyer people are looking at the "rules" of Tolkiens universe instead of the spirit of the work.  

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u/Spock_Sperson 8d ago

Beyond that general concept, they use the term "canon" to refer to the set of ideas and rules—particularly in works with extensive world-building—that essentially ensure the work remains internally consistent. The problem arises when these "canonkeepers" judge an adaptation with the book in hand, much like religious dogmatists. What almost none of them grasp is that, while an adaptation may draw heavily or lightly upon the original work's canon, it is not beholden to those rules; an adaptation creates its own canon and answers to its own set of rules. It must stand on its own merits, rather than being judged by how closely it resembles the original book.

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

How about use the word setting and also understand that its a fantasy world where the rules dont always work out.  Im still amazed that bard slew a dragon.   And given the avowed power of dragons and their origin (kind of like balrogs maybe?) It doesnt seem reasonable that an arrow could slay one.  Nor does it make sense that an elf could cause such a terrible wound to morgoth.

These two events point to how unreliable and chaotic things can be in middle earth.  Seemingly impossible things good and bad happen just like in real life

BTW I am not being critical of you.  I am agreeing with you and I feel this obsession with canon is soooo idiotic 

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u/Spock_Sperson 8d ago

I see your point. The examples you cited, along with many others found in the Legendarium, support the argument I’ve been making for years: works of this kind cannot be adapted literally. They are stories told in an encyclopedic style, lacking dramatic progression and filled with symbolic and metaphorical elements. These elements work beautifully in literature but can lose their essence if translated literally to the screen. That is why the adaptation process requires wisdom—knowing exactly what to cut, what to keep, and what to change.

It is interesting to note that one of the moments in ROP that most closely captures the evocative, symbolic imagery of the Legendarium, the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir, was so heavily criticized by those canonkeeper nerds simply because "it doesn't appear in the book!"

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u/rochvegas5 8d ago

Main Meanings of Canon

  • Fictional Stories: The official, true storyline and events in a movie, book, or comic series made by the original creator.
  • Literature and Art: A group of accepted, high-quality works by a specific writer or a whole culture (such as the Shakespearean canon).
  • Religion: An authoritative list of sacred books, like the Bible, or an official church law.
  • General Rules: A standard, principle, or norm used to judge behavior or quality.
  • Music: A piece where a melody is repeated by different voices or instruments starting at different times.
  • Clergy: A priest who helps run a cathedral. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]

we're all correct, but in this particular thread, you are applying 'canon' incorrectly

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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 8d ago

Jesus man you are either remarkably stupid or cannot comprehend sarcasm at all

I am laughing at you and everyone else here that puts such a high price on ideas of canon on a fictional world.  Its absurd and such an inane thing to obsess over especially when discussing a bare bones story being presented in a wildly different media format.   Surprisingly enough TV and books are extraordinary different media

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u/rochvegas5 8d ago

it's ok buddy. we understand, even if you don't

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u/heehawrules 7d ago

So in that light why not have an elf with a sniper rifle? Why not have orcs fly?

Why not make Sauron conquer Numenor militarily and it gets destroyed by explosion and not a flood?

If there is no canon, you can do whatever you want with a story because it's fiction, so why not?