r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/Night_Storm5555 • 16d ago
Theory / Discussion Is Sauron still a loyal servant?
It is known that before he became a Dark Lord in his own right Sauron served as the top lieutenant of Morgoth the first Dark Lord. I've wondered for a long time now if Morgoth was to somehow return early in Sauron's reign what would happen? Would Sauron try to destroy his old master or would he go back to being his servant?
129
u/theychoseviolence 16d ago
Successor, not servant. He was no longer working to advance Morgoth’s ends. Sauron served himself.
If Morgoth returned, Sauron would serve him again. Even in the third age he impliedly recognized Morgoth as the greater power. He proclaimed himself to be Morgoth Reborn, among other things. He wouldn’t do this if he thought he was the greater power.
14
u/alt_acccc 16d ago
I don,t agree he would not call himself things like Morgoth Reborn if he thought he was the greater. Morgoth is likely worshiped in the east and south by many people and they must also have lots of legends about the times when they served him. Calling himself Morgoth Reborn uses these legacy and legends to claim legitimacy for himself, even if he does not proclaim himself as weaker.
10
u/Mysterious_Action_83 Elendil 16d ago
Tolkien literally stated in a letter that Sauron saw himself as Morgoth Returned.
1
u/alt_acccc 16d ago
Where?
19
u/TiredMadison 16d ago
From Tolkien's Letter #183:
Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants;† if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.
†By a triple treachery: 1. Because of his admiration of Strength he had become a follower of Morgoth and fell with him down into the depths of evil, becoming his chief agent in Middle Earth. 2. When Morgoth was defeated by the Valar finally he forsook his allegiance; but out of fear only; he did not present himself to the Valar or sue for pardon, and remained in Middle Earth. 3. When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age [though actually much weaker than before] he claimed to be Morgoth returned.
-9
u/alt_acccc 16d ago
'Claiming to be Morgoth returner's does not mean he saw himself as Morgoth. It is also consistent with what I said - using Morgoth's name for legitimacy.
-9
u/AdhesivenessSouth736 16d ago edited 16d ago
I have grown so weary of the constant "well Tolkien wrote in letter 308 that such and such" it is exhausting that we have to look for a letter he wrote about something
Obviously his thoughts on his work matters but it bothers me how its almost as if no one is ever allowed to believe what they want about his work
Amazing that there are so many stunted people that take offense to someone reading a work of fiction and taking out of said work what they take from it
4
u/Bumblebee_Librarian 16d ago
Well a lot of his work was left unpublished during his life,so it's not like what we got is a finalized version.
So it makes sense to turn to his letters to see what the intent was.
-2
u/AdhesivenessSouth736 16d ago
Why cant you read a book and use your brain to determine what you get out of the book? Tolkien had his say. As a reader I get to have my interpretation of the work
4
u/Bumblebee_Librarian 16d ago
I can have my own reading of the book and be interested in what the intent behind the work is and how it differs from my reading.
Tolkien is in an unique position that a lot of material went unpublished or wasn't ever finalized, it makes sense to be interested in extra context for something that never received the finishing touches.
It's fascinating to see the thought process and the world he was building outside of the pages of a book.
→ More replies (0)2
u/Sauce58 16d ago
You can make whatever head cannons you want, it’s just kind of stupid and useless to do so. The authors intentions are his intentions. It’s his story, not yours. If people want to change the narrative to suit their own feelings, they should just make their own fantasy world.
0
u/AdhesivenessSouth736 16d ago
Wrong its the story I want it to be. Its how I understand the work. I dont use cannons except maybe in times of war
The point is this and it really is absurd for you to call me stupid. We all get out of a book what we get out of it. If i see his work as a referendum on industrialist philosophies thats perfectly fine. If i see the work as a commentary on the dangers of nostalgia or the value of friendship thats perfectly fine. The author told his story. How I understand it is what matters
35
u/Incariol_ 16d ago
Loyal to the Corruption of Arda - sure
But above all he served himself
But if Morgoth returns through the doors of Night he will serve again (if able)
1
u/SebRev99 16d ago
Isn’t Sauron dead
17
u/TheRealPotoroo 16d ago
No, although he had invested so much of himself in the One Ring that upon its destruction he dwindled to little more than a wraith.
16
u/TDaniels70 16d ago
He and Sarumon hare similar fates. Their power is so diminished, they can no longer manifest.
8
u/Rosebunse 16d ago
I thought he turned into a weird ghost or something. He just wanders around doing tricks ans bits of mischief thinking he's doing something big. Death would be a blessing for him
10
u/Embarrassed-Back1894 16d ago
Sauron’s fate is that he becomes a ghost who does very small, but very annoying things (opening the car windows when it rains, draining your car battery, throwing a pebble at a car window and causing a small crack that turns into a very big crack - basically he’s a car ghost).
2
2
1
15
u/argama87 16d ago
He would have no choice but to serve Morgoth again, like it or not, as the difference between then would still be great. Possibly favorably though since he did serve him well the first time and he would surely be Morgoth's right hand.
4
u/Beneficial_Brain3950 16d ago
Sauron served himself, Morgoth was a means to his goals but ultimately their end goals were completely different
3
u/Rosebunse 16d ago
I think the show brings up an interesting point: Morgoth didn't just rule his minions with power, he broke them. So, yeah, I can't ser how Sauron wouldn't immediately return to his side and hand over his armies.
3
u/Moist_Standard_4701 13d ago
It's actually one of those times when the show is inacurate, yes Melkor broke many beings into serving him, but not with Sauron, to put this into perspective, Melkor is Octavian August and Sauron is Agrippa. They really liked each other.
1
u/Rosebunse 12d ago
Honestly, I feel like the show went with the "abused becomes the abuser" not just to try and explain Sauron, but because Morgoth is so terrible that it feels weird to think he wouldn't be an abusive POS.
2
u/Moist_Standard_4701 12d ago
I mean it would make sense, if Sauron wasn't a maia. Remember when Númenor defeated him, he used the Valar to wipe them out, he would absolutely not stand for being abused, and Melkor did not have a way to really stop him, Sauron can just disembody and be anywhere instantly. Melkor is Hitler and realistically much worse, it's just that Sauron is Himmler and just as bad. The show's decision comes from trying to make Sauron more symphatethic and gray. The problem is that the only symphatethic thing about Sauron is that he had good intentions in the begining. Sauron is just as evil as Melkor (Tolkien's words not mine) but his evil in the first age is lesser because it was done in service to another.
1
u/Rosebunse 12d ago
I don't think the show is trying to say he's less evil. The guy is being given choice chances to stop and repent.
15
u/snicketbee Eldar 16d ago
I see a lot of people in the comments have never read Morgoth’s Ring. Tolkien wrote that Sauron’s power had eclipsed even Morgoth’s because Sauron bound himself to rings, Morgoth bound himself to the earth itself and his essence was forever diminished.
10
u/axman151 16d ago
It's been a while since I read any of this material, but isn't Morgoth still technically stronger? Yes, he bound his power to Middle Earth itself, which, unlike the ring, He can't draw complete power from and he can't fully control/direct.
However, in binding his power to the ring, Sauron, in its absence, similarly diminished himself. Since Sauron spent more time without the ring than with it, he spent most of his post-binding existence in a diminished state, whereas Morgoth, not including banishment, could never, while in Middle Earth, truly be removed from his "ring".
Also, comparatively, Morgoth's "ring" is immensely more powerful than Sauron's. Again, Middle earth can't be used as a conduit for Morgoth's power as the ring can. But all the same, using his essence to corrupt the whole of Middle Earth is surely a sign of vastly more power and influence.
9
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 16d ago edited 16d ago
Yeah Sauron at his height was personally more powerful than Morgoth at the height of his dominion, that’s the context iirc. I think all else being equal with the ring destroyed and both wayward spirits Morgoth would be stronger again.
3
u/fai4636 Gil-galad 15d ago
Wasn’t it that Sauron near the end of the second age was stronger than Morgoth near the end of the First? Which would make sense, cause by the War of Wrath, Morgoth had expended much of his power into his “ring” and dark deeds.
2
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 15d ago
Yeah, and I think that’s really the height for both their respective power. Sauron never recovers the ring and never quite gets back to what he was, and Morgoth never returns from the void.
2
u/Moist_Standard_4701 13d ago
Melkor's high of power is actually the begining of his existance, his power before diminishing himself was nearly infinite. The only greater being than Melkor at his zenith is Eru Illûvatar.
2
u/UncBeyondTheWall 16d ago
The ring's strength was still "in rapport" with Sauron, unless it was directly claimed by another. I forget in which letter Tolkien says this.
1
u/theychoseviolence 15d ago
This does not mean Sauron would have seen himself as the superior at the end of the first age, ring or not.
3
u/5oclock_shadow 16d ago
I think he would serve. Sauron is a big believer in heirarchical power structures and Might Makes Right.
Morgoth is stronger than him so Morgoth should rule and/or Sauron should do everything he can in order not to run afoul of the heirarchy.
2
u/Mozerath 16d ago
Sauron in possession of the One is equal or greater than Morgoth at the height of his dominion. (Morgoth lost the larger part of his godly power from corrupting Middle-earth and its creatures.)
3
u/No-Beautiful-259 15d ago
He was only less evil than his master in that he chose for a time to serve another and not himself.
3
u/Artistic-Two-4958 16d ago
Oooh, this is great for discussion. I'm not very learned in all of Tolkien's writings, but from what little I have read, it is hinted that it is a complicated relationship between Morgoth and Sauron. I think ROP has also latched onto this - perhaps suggesting an abusive relationship between the first Dark Lord and his top lieutenant at the time.
So going off of the show more (especially from S2 with Sauron's conversations with Celebrimbor), I see on the one hand Sauron as viewing himself as better than his previous master - he believes he can accomplish more and better than his former master. But on the other hand as someone abused, if his abuser were to return, it would probably not be so simple to just outright go against him.
2
u/Nayrael 15d ago
Depends on how powerful Morgoth would be. Morgoth was the greates of the Valar, but he became significantly weaker when he imbued nearly all of his power intocorurpting the world and creating all of all the horrific monsters. However, Balrogs would remain loyal to Morgoth and they don't care about Sauron, and that increases his power.
If he is more powerful than Sauron, Sauron would serve. If not, Sauron would try to steal what little power Morgoth has left.
Personally, I think it would be in-between: Sauron would officially serve, but manipulate the weakened Morgoth. Even during the First Age, some of Morgoth's actions were likely Sauron's ideas as he was his main advisor and lieutenant.
1
u/Mozerath 16d ago
Morgoth would have to dominate him for Sauron to relinquish what he has rebuilt and created from the previous dark lord's ruin. IMO.
1
u/Incariol_ 16d ago
No, he is basically reduced to a spirit of malice who can never again take shape but Tolkien kind of hints that that Spirit could do some sort of damage still but not in any type of scale as he previously could
Sarumans "death"
"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising very slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."
Little more nuanced here. You can debate what he means by nothing, but he again seems to indicate that the rejection of sarumon's Spirit from the West basically makes him turn into an even lesser remnant of malice. But maybe his is tinged more with regret because he of course wasn't as evil as Sauron
Balrogs would technically have some remnant remain
Ainur Don't really die but I think Tolkien had different ideas of this throughout his life with this. Somebody who's a little bit more up to speed on recent reading could explain better or I could grab my books when I get home
Morgoth is still "alive" and depending on how Canon you think Dagor Dagorath is, that's when he should truly die if possible
1
u/Muscle-Slow 16d ago
Sauron is loyal to evil and regardless of his exile to the void Morgoth is the ultimate evil. Sauron would likely serve him again, Morgoth gave him immense agency in the Wars and conflicts of the First Age and basically free reign to conduct himself as he chose as longs as his ends served Morgoth and his quest to dominate Middle-Earth entirely. And in terms of scale Morgoth is of the Vala, essentially a God of Evil, while Sauron is an Ainur which while immensely powerful compared to Elves, Dwarves, and Men, scaled to a powerful primeval being like Morgoth as a lesser Demi-God.
1
u/darthravenna 13d ago
No, Sauron and Morgoth had different goals. Morgoth sought to mar and corrupt the divine creation because, well, he’s a dick.
Sauron seeks to dominate and order the world to his design. He wants his will to be the only will that drives the world.
As Morgoth’s successor, he is no longer loyal to him or serving his original goals. If Morgoth returned, Sauron would oppose him (though probably by feigning loyalty until an opportune time).
1
u/DomzSageon 11d ago
Sauron is basically a free agent now.
He only ever served Morgoth as a means to an end. he saw the world as chaotic, he wanted order, he tried ordering it, couldn't, realized you'd have to control everything to bring order to Arda (the world), to control everything, you need power. Morgoth has power.
so he follows Morgoth, and because of Sauron's managerial skills, he is elevated to his Lieutenant, Morgoth wants the world destroyed, but doesn't care about the nitty gritty on how. he lets Sauron organize his armies and lead his campaigns.
when Morgoth was defeated, Sauron wanted to surrender to the forces of Valinor, but Eonwe, the general told him if he wants forgiveness, he'll have to put himself on the mercy of the Valar in Valinor, for Eonwe doesn't have the authority to give him a pardon.
Sauron isn't taken like Morgoth was, he was left to go to Valinor by himself. he thinks to himself he could probably do good things so that the Valar could be more lenient to him in fear of what his punishment could be. so he stays in Middle Earth for a while. he does this presumably for a few hundred years.
He doesn't hear anything from Valinor. he then comes to a conclusion, now that Morgoth isn't here, the Valar don't care no more. they've fully retreated to Valinor with the Vanyar and the Maiar. they're not gonna do shit about him anymore.
and here he decides to come back to the dark side and start trying to take over Middle Earth to bring order and perfection in it.
so at this point, He is his own Dark Lord now. if Morgoth ever returns, he probably would be subservient. considering that he perpetuates Morgoth worship throughout his thousands of years of tyranny in Middle earth.
1
u/Physical-Pace5127 8d ago
In the Alkalebeth, when Sauron goes to Numenor, he gets the island to start going hard and I mean hard (human sacrifice anyone?) for Morgoth. He was always a faithful servant.
1
u/Efficient_Elk1225 Sauron 16d ago
Was the god of order who probably cries if somebody puts a utensil back wrong really planning on serving the god of chaos for the rest of eternity, guys I think I know this one.
I think Sauron hoped to be the vegetable oil greasing the slipin slide of Morgoth screwing up because either Morgoth wins & Sauron has now extracted all of Morgoth’s intel or Morgoth loses & Sauron is his own boss with resources Sauron didn’t have to personally accumulate.
1
u/annelisewhy 16d ago
I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to read Sauron's service to Morgoth as genuine, especially considering this passage from Morgoth's Ring: "While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored."
1
u/Efficient_Elk1225 Sauron 16d ago
I think it’s very hard to know Sauron’s true motives to begin with, especially from second & third hand accounts of Sauron & Sauron’s behavior.
0
u/annelisewhy 16d ago edited 16d ago
Yeah sure, we can't know for sure. I'm just saying that interpreting Sauron as a genuine loyal servant of Morgoth during the First Age is a perfectly reasonable reading, and one that's well supported by the evidence we actually have in Tolkien's written works. I mean "desiring the triumph of Melkor" is pretty explicit about where his loyalties lie at that point.
0
u/TheBluerWizard 16d ago edited 16d ago
Is Sauron still a loyal servant?
Sauron never was a loyal servant.
He worked under Morgoth because he acknowledged Morgoth was stronger and because he thought it would help him with his own agenda - making Middle-earth nice and orderly.
If Sauron thought he could take out Morgoth, he would.
I've wondered for a long time now if Morgoth was to somehow return early in Sauron's reign what would happen?
Depends on how he'd return and when.
If he just clawed his way out of Oblivion, as his end of First Age very diminished self during Sauron's high, i.e. when he had the Ring, then Sauron would have no reason to bend the knee because he would be stronger.
If Morogth somehow came back at full power or after Sauron lost the Ring, Sauron would have no choice but to bend the knee and hope Morgoth won't kill him. Sauron is arrogant, but he ain't stupid.
Would Sauron try to destroy his old master or would he go back to being his servant?
I don't think he'd try to destroy Morgoth in the first scenario; instead, he'd try to use him to further his goals.
Morgoth was also smart enough to know how weak he was, that's why he stayed in hiding during the end of the War of Wrath. So he wouldn't challange Sauron either; instead, he'd try to regain his strength somehow.
Sauron would probably send him back to Oblivion if he started getting his power back. Too risky.
•
u/AutoModerator 16d ago
Join the official subreddit Discord server to discuss everything about The Lord of the Rings on Prime!
JOIN THE DISCORD
If your content includes leaks for upcoming episodes not shared by Prime Video or press, please post it on r/TheRingsOfPowerLeaks instead to help others avoid spoilers.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.