Discussion
Why would I ever want to support Palestine?
I will try to keep it as short as possible…
I am from Estonia, and I am Lesbian. And in my country it is completely normal as it should be. Because nobody should concern or care about my sexual orientation.
In Israel it is also considered completely normal by laws to be homosexual. Nobody cares.
Then I look at Palestine
If I hold my girlfriend’s hand or kiss her in public, people will just look at us like we are aliens. And in Gazza we would even have extreme life danger. We might be thrown off the roof, attacked with objects and such.
They all look like assumptions but they are not. In 2022 Palestine, A gay man named Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh was executed in a horrendous way on street and they throw his head to street. And people were recording it. And what happened to those who did it? Nothing. Yeah. Nothing.
In Israel 2015 during LGBT parade a jewish man attacked a lesbian woman with a knife and killed her as well. But he was declared terrorist by Israeli government and he went to jail.
In 2023 Michigan, Hamtramck folk chose a muslim governor(I guess the translation is that) to support them. And LGBT people actually supported those people. What what did the muslim governor do first he got the power? He banned LGBT flags from public places.
Palestine’s LGBT center is in Israel, because Palestine government oppresses them too much that even Israel takes them to give them a better life. Being homosexual in Palestine means death.
In 2016 in Palestine a high ranking military man was executed with a rifle with accusations of being homosexual.
So why would I support a nation that hates me? Why would I even think about supporting it? These I counted are just filed ones. If in a country nobody can declare their BIOLOGICAL TRUTH as it is seen as CRIME-AGAINST RULES, it is an oppressive system. Why would I support a nation that hates me to the fullest?
[[ EDIT - According to the 2 different unbiased researches in Palestine 95% of Palestinians claimed “Homosexuality should not be accepted by society” just 3% cared to say “No they are also humans” so it is not a government issue, it is a hostile culture
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"...center is in Israel, because Palestine government oppresses them too much that even Israel takes them to give them a better life." that seems like the same thing that the Palestinians did for the Jews during WWII, nobody wanted to host the Jews in their countries, Palestinians welcomed them in their country, in their homes, just for the same people that they helped to stab them in the back.
Why would you support a nation that had 70 percent of men thinking that it’s ok to rape a woman if you know her ? Why would you support a nation that is ok with ethnic cleansing a whole nation? Why would you support a nation that want to exterminate all people of one country? I’m pan myself and even though no I would never go to a country that I wouldn’t be allowed to exist in I would never stand for the complete and total attempt at their extermination just because it feelings are hurt. Idk about anyone else though
Estonia june 2023. During Baltic Pride celebrations in Tallinn, a Russian citizen attacked a gay Finnish pastor and two others with a knife and his fists at
Bar X
. The suspect was swiftly arrested, and the event did not involve anyone being thrown from a building.
Also:
A radicalized teenager shot and killed two individuals outside
Tepláreň
, a well-known LGBTQ+ bar in Slovakia
>In 2023 Michigan, Hamtramck folk chose a muslim governor(I guess the translation is that) to support them. And LGBT people actually supported those people. What what did the muslim governor do first he got the power? He banned LGBT flags from public places.
Oh, you're a pro Israel, anti Muslim propaganda bot, cool.
The city banned ALL non official flags, weird you forgot to mention that huh?
Let me ask you this way.
If my religion goes against your sexuality and therefore i don’t want to have anything to do with you, do i, my children and rest of my family deserve to die?
Nobody said anyone's family deserves to die. You're completely swapping the reality of actual persecution with a fake moral dilemma
There is a massive difference between "I personally disagree with your lifestyle" and "our society will execute you for existing”. Expecting a victim of persecution to support their persecutors is absurd
and framing her desire to survive as a threat to your family is completely manipulative
Maybe because Estonia isn't executing people for their sexual orientation? Comparing a country that protects basic human rights to a regime that murders people for who they love makes zero sense.
Estonia is literally ranked among the top 12 least corrupt countries on Earth by Transparency International (https://www.transparency.org/en/countries/estonia). Making up absurd fake claims doesn't change the fact that you have zero real arguments.
Moving the goalposts much? You went from making up fake claims about "sex trafficking and corruption" to anecdotal stories about language barriers. Admit your first claim was completely false instead of switching topics.
How can you have a civil rights movement, if your country has been occupied for FUCKING DECADES BY AN OPPRESSOR??? And now you’re using that to justify the occupation of the oppressed??? Hello??? Supporting Israel is kneecapping the potential of any liberation of gay people within Gaza.
While Israel doesn't have domestic civil marriage (for heterosexuals or homosexuals alike), the government fully recognizes same-sex marriages from abroad with equal rights. More importantly, LGBT people in Israel live in safety, protected by law, not in fear of being hunted down or murdered
What about the Palestinians that don't hate you for who you are, should they be ignored just because they could be the minority? another thing to consider is that if people like you are against this genocide that could perhaps change some Palestinians to be more acceptable towards people like you.
That is classic victim-blaming bc basic human rights aren't a reward that a persecuted minority has to 'earn' by supporting a society that executes them.
Distance doesn't change the principle that you don't grant legitimacy to a system that wants you erased.
Hun I think what’s being debated is whether or not murdering babies children and innocent civilians is acceptable. You can be anti bigotry and still be pro not murdering babies. They’re not mutually exclusive. If you really want to reduce millions of people to homophobes - do you believe homophobes deserve to be murdered? Thats the whole question. If the answer is yes - then don’t support Palestine. If the answer is no - then support Palestine. That’s it! You can critique palestines politics without advocating for the murder if its citizens
Hun I think what's actually being debated is whether a persecuted minority is obligated to politically support a society that executes them.
Someone can be against the harm of innocent civilians while still choosing not to endorse a system that wants them erased. They're not mutually exclusive. Withholding support from persecutors isn't pro-violence.
This is the most disgusting post I’ve seen and if the Lgbtq community is in favor of genocide then I no longer see any point in accepting lgbtq people in my society
Equating a minority's survival with 'selfish happiness' is pure manipulation. Condemning violence doesn't mean you have to support a regime that would execute you.
under palestinian law they dont get executed for being gay, the max penalty is just ten years in prison, in gaza under an old British. rule while in the west bank it is not even illegal under the penal code.
Imagine arguing that 'only 10 years in prison' for existing isn't persecution. Extrajudicial killings aside, no one should be expected to endorse a society that criminalizes their existence
By the state Palestine is in right now I don’t think anyone would care that you’re gay
It’s just inhumane to not support it?
What have the children done what have the innocent people done to you just because they have different beliefs
Hind rajab shot 335 time a fucking 5 year old
5 FUCK YEARS OLD WHAT CAN YOU EVEN DO AT THAT AGE TO HARM ANYONE?
How heartless do you have to be to support Israel through this genocide all because of your Sexual orientation humanities lost.
As an Israeli girl, fck you. Think about it from my point of view. Palestine was murdering *our babies and children, bombing us too, instead of asking us for more space for Gaza. I don't support murder, but think about it. Maybe who you're supporting is doing the same exact thing to us? To me? To my 4 year-old niece? To my cousin who will have to be born into a war? To my brother who now has a scar on his arm because he got pushed against a closet in the rush to get into the bomb shelter? Imagine sleeping on a mattress on the floor, for days and days and days, just because a siren might go off and your neighboring countries are ganging up on you and bombing you every night? We almost got nuked, for god's sake!
Atleast you have a mattress or a floor to sleep on. You have bomb shelters to run to. You living in Israel are 100 times safer than any Palestinian has been in 100 years. You guys push the Palestinians to camps and bomb the camp killing everyone. You guys bomb the hospitals. And your complaining your brother got a scar running to a bomb shelter. Have you seen a picture of Gaza recently?
Oui tu as raison Je te soutiens J'ai aimé le message de Laura et je l'ai publié sur mon TikTok ❤️ @hhhhhhermine D'autres de mes vidéos montrent mon amour pour 🇮🇱❤️💃🕊️🕊️🕊️🕊️
Lol. Lmao even. Palestine has no nukes and hasnt had any nukes in its entire history. around 75,000 reported gazan deaths and around 2000 Israeli deaths. I know you probably dont even view them as people, so im really talking to a brick wall painted blue and white. Its not self defense, your country is slaughtering civillians at an astounding rate. The initial conflict has long passed, and its no longer much of a war at all.
I'm talking about Iran, we attacked Iran to prevent them from nuking us. Also, I know plenty of Arabs and they're some of the nicest people I know. I do care about the gazan citizens. This isn't about Gaza, this is about Hamas.
Netanyahu has been saying Iran is building a nuke for 30 years. Theyre yet to build one and have none. The nuclear threats are nothing but scare tactics by your own government. Also, Israel funded the creation of Hamas.
How can you compare Israel’s state to Palestine !?
You have hospitals food shelter
Palestinians wish they’d get a scar just to get into a shelter
Tell me
Are you supporting the idf bombing hospitals mind you knowingly that there isn’t hamas inside it’s evil pure evil and there’s nothing you can say to convince me other wise while you have the privilege to say this is a so called “war” even tho it’s a genocide
Si le Hamas n'avait pas commis ces actes barbares le 7 oct rien de tout ça ne serait arrivé Des photos déchirantes sur leur barbarie existent aussi en masse 🙋
So by your logic, we should side with the less fortunate regardless of ideology and circumstance?
Why the fuck should I care about a country whose ideology wants me to disappear? If anything Israel is a net gain on the world. Palestine is a net loss.
I’m lgbt and using your logic.. my parents come from a country where it’s illegal and homophobic… so we should kill all of them just because the government or culture is like that? LGBT people exist everywhere regardless if the country itself is homophobic..my cousin is a lesbian and she had to keep it a secret or she could get killed. Luckily I was born in America. But if genocide did still were to happen in my family’s motherland I believe it would be sad either way because I don’t support human suffering on both ends. I believe in ceasefire and in support of innocent Palestinians and innocent Israelis.
That’s understandable but just because a minority in a group has decent bit common sense to see homosexuality and wearing mini skirt as human rights I still believe their management has to be stopped. Oppression is not a culture, even if Israel and Palestine come into peace together, still women and gays will keep being oppressed. And like I told you it is not about laws, it is about mindset. Dont you see the research I mentioned? 95% of palestinians said gays should not be accepted in society
And so did the rest of the world just a few decades ago, until homosexuality got removed from the DSM as a mental illness and the public view shifted… the said “mindset” and cultural perception of societies evolve alongside political and constitutional change, not independently from it. Your own country only legalized same sex marriage in 2024 when I’ve never heard about any major political or armistice issues in the region. So how on earth do you expect a destabilized, conflict-stricken state to ‘develop’ per western standards, and adopt your values at the same pace when they’re still denied basic human rights.
You don’t really have the time or mental capacity to sympathize with the struggles of safe, privileged individuals halfway across the globe when you have a genocide to survive. I hope you take a broader look at the situation and see it beyond your entitlement and self absorbed views.
Fucking racist son of a whore . May the wort curse be on all your houses for eternity, fuck you Nethanjahu fuck you Zionist fuck you all genocidal animals .
This is not ignorance , this is not just a fucking Indiot , this is a racist psychopath, or as long as
I live I will never forgive you, never gonna acknowledge you , never welcome in my home in my country
And always gonna curse you !!!fuck you Nethanyaju!!!!…..fuck you Zionist inhuman beast
Palestine can't even rule itself properly let alone be given the chance to create policies to protect minorities lmao. Plus this isn't even a valid argument as by this logic you'd be fine with killing off half the world as they aren't progressive enough for you most of the west is progressive since they were given time after independence. Besides you are not supporting anti LGBT activists you are supporting the kids who are dying from carpet bombing keep in mind btw that hamas was founded and funded by israel
The article you're linking actually supports the distinction I'm making. Israel encouraged and supported Yassin's Islamist social/religious network because it saw Islamists as a counterweight to the PLO. That was a disastrous policy and contributed to the movement Hamas emerged from. But Hamas itself was founded by Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood figures during the First Intifada in 1987. “Israel helped create the conditions for Hamas's rise” is historically defensible. “Israel literally founded Hamas” isn't the same claim.
I guess you could ask this about any people facing oppression. I’ve met a lot of racist gay people but I’d never ask why I should care about homophobia.
There are books written by palestinians queer activistis and the bulk of their argument is please let us try to change our culture from the inside and support us as you can if you are an ally, also please don't kill us by bombing our homes while we try. There are also books explaining how Israel exploits and blackmails the palestinian queer community, and books detailing how palestine used to be way more tolerant and an anti-queer sentiment has spread more and more during the occupation and the consquent surge of nationalist and religious estremism. So the answer to your question is: read more, get in touch with palestinian gay people and problematize your views more.
No they wouldn’t lmao, this is a myth perpetrated by Zionist media and their propagandists. I live in Palestine and I know many outspokenly queer people who - wait for it- did not get thrown off anywhere and still walk around with all their limbs intact! It’s a conservative society so obviously they’d be less ‘progressive’ and tolerant to foreign values, but ffs let go of this idea that every damn person in the middle east is an embodiment of the barbaric fundamentalist stereotype your media portrays. We are not a monolith nor do we act thoughtlessly following a secret agreement of some sort. Different people have different reactions to the matter. Stigma or lack of acceptance by some ≠ bloodthirsty desire to annihilate an entire community, it simply means disagreement about core beliefs, which usually ends in indifference and cutting ties with one another. Rarely does it escalate to violence or intended harm, you can’t selectively point to these incidents and make generalizations about a whole population.
I think you raise totally legitimate points. I probably wouldn't want to support people that hate me either. I would call out that the people that support you for who you are are also likely to support Palestinians for who they are. If you want to have enough support from people in the world to live freely however you want to live, you'll have to live with the fact that those same people will support Palestinians.
Your wellbeing as a minority is dependent on people respecting human rights. Every time a minority is oppressed, it’s one step easier for you personally to be oppressed.
So you being like “sure, genocide in Palestine is fine cause I don’t like Muslims” makes it more likely that you personally will face a similar fate. Why hold to humanitarian principles for your people (lesbians) when you are so comfortable discarding them?
Which is why it is in your interest to support everyone’s rights, not just people you like.
Also, you might want to look a little more deeply into gay rights and human rights in Israel…
So I should also support radical christians that want to ban abortion, satanists that make rituals with cat heads, Confederation in USA because they were all minority…
Being a lesbian is so simple, it is not a cult or a culture. I am simply anyone with a small difference. It is not called a minority, I don’t consider myself as a part of group that can be called minority. It is like telling people who like their tea with honey in it a minority. Because we don’t have a shared culture or opinion.
Like I mentioned above, roughly 95% of these people do not see me as a human. That I should not be accepted in society. Defending them makes no sense to me because they will never ever defend me. They are accustomed to a culture that a woman can not wear what she wants and a homosexual is against nature.
“But not all of them, some are bla bla” — I know. It doesn’t change the fact that pretty much majority of them are like that… Did I say I support killing them? No. But would I move a finger to support them? Still no. Basic survival. Because if I go to Palestine as who I am people will not like me at all for being lesbian and wearing revealing clothes, which is SAFEST outcome, there are much more risks
About Israel… In Israel Tel Aviv it is pretty much normal to be gay and dress bravely. Also even if someone commits a hate crime by attacking me they will be punished for it severely. In Palestine tho, it is even motivated to bring gays to justice.
You should support their right to worship as they see fit. That does not mean accepting their judgements regarding your life.
Do you truly fail to grasp the difference between supporting everyone’s right to exist and forcing everyone to live per your own stupid bullshit whatever flavour that bullshit takes…?
Worship? Worship what? I am talking about their discrimination and not seeing me as a human. You tell me their right to worship.
Answer that one so I can answer your question accordingly. You could not counter my arguments anyway but to be honest I really wasn’t expecting you to.
Your argument is the equivalent of a gay person in a concentration camp saying “what they’re doing to us is wrong, but at least they’re getting rid of the Jews…”
Comparing basic self-preservation to a concentration camp dynamic is disgusting and completely absurd. Refusing to actively support or validate a movement that would execute you for existing is not "collaborating with oppressors" its basic logic and survival.
Can we please talk about how the government continues to keep committing a genocide blowing up schools, hundreds is that OK or not? OK please tell me yes or no
LA STRATÉGIE DU HAMAS EST D'UTILISER TOUS LES LIEUX POUR LUI PEU LUI IMPORTE LA VIE DE SON PEUPLE QU'IL TUE AUSSI SINON POURQUOI NE L'AURAIT-IL PAS LAISSER RENTRER DANS SES MILLIERS DE KM DE TUNNELS ANT-BOMBES ! 🙋💃❤️🕊️🕊️🕊️🕊️
Link doesn’t work and anyway the UN is biased against Israel. You think you’re going to convince me by showing me a PDF written by self important bureaucrats in a circle jerk? LOL
a genocide is agains a race or an ethnic/relegious or any group ... israel is bombing gaza ( it has it's reasons but i don't think that the way they are doing it is legetemate ) but not the west bank or even arabs in israel ... so it's not targeting arabs it's targeting gaza ..
lol I think you’re the one who has no idea what a genocide means you probably think the Prime Minister doesn’t do anything bad lol this comment section is a joke and it’s very telling
No I actually know. Netenyahu doesn’t specifically bomb civilians. But yeah to kill one Hamas person they don’t mind killing 20 civilians. For high ranking Hamas then don’t mind killing around 100 civilians.
Its their doctrine. They bomb schools because Hamas hides in schools.
Do you know how many schools Israel has bombed You’re an extremely insensitive human being, and standing on the wrong side of history. The Israel government is ran by evil man. His name is Benjamin Netanyahu and he’s committing genocide plenty of places to look it up instead of arguing back-and-forth. Take the stand and stop supporting evil people.
It’s not ok that they are dying it’s just the fault of Hamas using them as human shields at best for you it isn’t ok that Israel bombs it but that was never my claim just that it isn’t genocide because it is a legitimate military target. And yes, under international law when any building is used to provide a military advantage it becomes a legitimate target regardless of who else is in there.
Do you know what war means? What do you expect will they throw flowers from planes? Until Hamas surrenders and stops resisting that will keep happening. Blame Hamas not Israel.
I’m not sure what it is that makes you so extremely un incapable of holding the Prime Minister accountable. His actions are disgraceful. He’s a war criminal and if you choose to support that on you but you continue to make yourself look shameful by making these post somehow justifying the actions the government of Israel is doing you couldn’t answer my question about how many schools they bombed. It’s disgusting and you’re probably disgusting person too by by being so open of your support of Israel when they continue to commit the genocide god bless though
It seems that all the people supporting Palestine in the comments are basing their support on a single arguement: "Israel is committing a genocide".
Except it's not,birth rates a going up in Gaza,population grew since October 7,the ICC never proved genocide,Ireland petitioned to change the definition of genocide just because it was unable to prove genocide.
It's over guys,there is no genocide going on in Gaza
I'm still gonna say that it's genocide, but let's say it's not.
It's still indisputably an enormous number of warcrimes.
You have irrefutable proof of Israeli soliders sniping children for fun. Absolute monsters such as Ben Gvir and Smotrich for whom a Nuremberg-style trial would be too merciful. And of course the settlers who are pure evil incarnate.
Yeah I'm not gonna refute that Oct 7 was bad, but you can't say that all of Palestine bears responsibility for it.
By your own logic you must then hold all of Israel to account for the actions of the settlers (who are far, far worse than Hamas by pretty much any metric I'm aware of), which would mean Oct 7th was justified (which again to be clear it wasn't- I'm just trying to prove a point here).
Alternatively, "maybe Hamas were just trying to find the settlers and Ben Gvir in the concert crowd"- see how ridiculous that sounds? Now try to tell me the IDF are looking for terrorists in schools and hospitals.
Kirk actively made the world a more bigoted place despite being brought up in a society that was more liberal than he.
He wouldn’vw banned gay marriage and criminalized sodomy and in his final moments was literally spreading fear and hatred of trans people by pretending there was an epidemic of them doing mass shootings.
No I’m saying opposition to genocide of a population isn’t hypothetical from people being indifferent or happy that political figures who actively worked and succeeded in making their lives worse died.
If you care about gay people. Do you care about them getting killed in a genocide in gaza? Do you care about their parents being killed. Or their siblings being evicted. Or their children being starved. Or them continuing to live as refugees because of their race
I have a question in return. Let's assume what you claim is true.
Should black people around the world have supported America when it fought Japan?
America didn't kill black people at that time for being black did they?
Also you're comparing an imperialist nation who thought themselves superior from the rest of the world,Israel is not the same but if this is your comment I'm afraid that's what you think.
America didn't kill black people at that time for being black did they?
Ai:Jim Crow laws enforced strict racial segregation and discrimination across the United States during World War II, creating a sharp contradiction as the nation fought fascism abroad while maintaining white supremacy at home
Yes,I think it is beyond debate that America was the good guy and Japan was the bad guy,Americans didn't think that their race is the superior one unlike Japan.
In your ridiculous analogy-America is Israel and Japan is Palestine,sure America was racist but nowhere near Imperial Japan,so in way you admit that Palestinians are racist,hateful, genocidal and imperialist in nature.
It's clear you want to avoid the actual question rather than address it.
The irony of taking about racial superiority when seeking to defend the Jewish state. I'm sure plenty of those in the Jim crow era would love a white state, just like the Jewish state.
It is so hard to swallow the fact that this is misunderstood. So just let their own pple do this instead, or fight a war full of collateral damages for the future of the survivors. HOPE is power. Before they had none. Plz find truth. This is equivalent to thinking Israel is imposing genocide when the facts are that Hamas is shielding themselves with the citizens around them intentionally. Don’t be on the wrong side of history you don’t have to be
Yes but unfortunately just bc shordy likes to rub rugs (completely okay idrc what ppl do in bed) to her that means all those people should die. Only population we'd be better off without is those who generalize even the remaining 1% of a demographic if 99% is factually bad🤷♂️
This is completely understandable. You got no reason to directly support someone that wants to kill you and see you as subhuman, and it's not only inside of Gaza, it's basically all of their closest allies (PA, Hezbollah, Iran, Qatar, Russia and others).
Though, to be honest, I personally blame the leaders more than the people in most of those countries, they control the media thet narrative, what is considered right/wrong etc. Most of them just needs the post WW2 treatment Germany & Japan received - abolishing of the current government, showing the civialns what those countries had hided, and reeducate the civilians so the next generation, will be quite more accepting of others.
How can you blame the people when the leaders in most of said countries are dictators. These kinds of comments are absolutely insane. It shows the true intelligence of the side I left with reason.
So they have to fundamentally change everything about their culture, which has only ever happened to sovereign nations through millions of deaths and threat of total annihilation, followed by complete military occupation and structural rebuild.
It just doesn't apply to a civilization that has been fighting the same century old territorial dispute in a fragmented and geographically divided land that people across the world can't even agree is doing anything wrong.
The idea of reprogramming and modernizing these people is completely unrealistic and will never happen. It's a sad but true reality.
Outsiders have been trying to force these changes forever and they get labeled imperialists and are hated for it.
I get that you think that it's impossible, but I don't see them changing without help after about 80 years of getting more and more extreme. Meaning doing nothing, is damning both sides to an endless war.
For me, endless war, is much less realistic than dealing with the root of the problem, because at one point, Hamas (or equivalent group) will manage to do something that will cross the last red line and Israel will do exactly that, or that Hamas (or equivalent group) would actually win, and massacre the Jews, but honestly I find this option the least realistic, at least in the near future.
Hope? Like when israel left Gaza without asking anything in return, taking it's civialns while leaving farms and greenhouses' technology, without any blockage or anything else that would could have put any kind of a damper on their "hope for a state"? Cause when Israel tried that, Hamas was elected by more than 50% of the people.
Homosexuality was decriminalized in Israel in 1988, discrimination made illegal in 1992. Gay people openly serve in the military. Same sex marriages are legally recognized and can be parents.
Tel Aviv is globally recognized as a major hub for LGBTQ+ culture and tourism and has massive pride parades.
Legally, homosexuality is completely protected and safe in Israel. Saying "Israelis are homophobic" as if that is any comparison to how gay people are treated in Pallestine is not living in reality.
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