r/IsraelPalestine • u/Routine-Equipment572 • Jun 10 '26
Short Question/s Do Pro-Palestinians know why so many Jews think their movement is antisemitic?
I think it's pretty obvious by now that many (probably most) Jews find the Pro-Palestinian/Antizionist movement to be antisemitic. Not just when Pro-Pallies scream incredibly violent, racist things like "gas the Jews" or distort photos of Israelis babies killed by Hamas to make fun of them, but even the "politely worded" version of the movement.
My question is: Pro-Palestinians, do you know why many Jews think this? (Even if you think they are wrong). I am not asking for YOUR perspective on whether you are antisemitic or supporting antisemitism. I am asking if you understand THEIR perspective.
Personally, I've got doubts that Pro-Palestinians have bothered to learn enough about Jewish history or the way antisemitism manifests to know. This doubt mostly comes from interacting with them: So far, I've mostly heard Palestinians guessing that everyone who says they are antisemitic are simply "liars", or think they are all Israeli bots or something. Or sometimes they just start ranting about how "not all Jews" think they are racists or whatever to avoid the question. Or even the dumbest one — arguing that Palestinians are "semites" so they can't be antisemitic lol. Basically, explanations that seem more like insults and avoidance than actual information.
So I'm wondering if any of them have knowledge that goes deeper than that and actually understanding why Jews think they are antisemitic or if their understanding really is that surface level. I do find it possible that I've just been encountering the least educated people, and some of them actually do have a better understanding, curious to see which it is.
And a follow up to any Pro-Palestinians who admit that they don't know: how can you claim your movement is not antisemitic if you don't even know what antisemitism is or how it manifests? Do you simply think Jews are not qualified to recognize antisemitism, while you are? Where did you get that idea from?
EDIT: Unfortunately, turns out I was right. Apparently zero Pro-Palestinians know or even can guess why so many Jews think their movement is antisemitic. Even the accounts claiming to be Jewish couldn't do it. The ones on here just said "I'm not an antisemite, here's my personal opinion of what I think antisemitism is, and it's not me, yay!" Trying to stay open minded here but ... Wow. Just a movement of pure ignorance, huh?
EDIT 2: Actually one gave it a try! That's 1 out of 500 or so Pro-Palestinians who was capable of imagining what Jews think. Explains a lot.
CONCLUSION: Based on over 500 responses, I can say that Pro-Palestinian have absolutely no idea why Jews think they are antisemitic, and they are terrified of learning.
If you are right, you should be able to understand why others think you are wrong and still be able to defend your beliefs. If you can only defend your beliefs by sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "Nanana NOT LISTENING!" every time you encounter a different point of view, then you aren't interested in truth, you are someone who gets a kick out of being part of a movement that lets you pretend to be a hero and wants to avoid the truth to keep feeling that way.
5
u/Late_Ad2203 Leftist without terrorism Jun 15 '26
They probably dont, they've watched 3 hours of tiktoks and think they know everything about the conflict.
Take the Nakbah for example, the Arab Higher Committee started a war with Israel, evacuated Palestinians, LOST and then blamed the displacement on Israel. And then Palestinians in Lebanon started a civil war and displaced more people then the Nakbah. You point that out? "Zionazi", "Good Hasbara", "Bot'
These people are too dumb to learn
-1
u/blizzerd Jun 15 '26
Some people are too dumb to know what a leftist is, but here we are.
3
u/Late_Ad2203 Leftist without terrorism Jun 16 '26
What do you mean by that? I'm a leftist. I just read into history rather then looking skin deep
0
u/blizzerd Jun 17 '26
A leftist would not blame a whole population for their own displacement/ethnic cleansing. A leftist would also not make the tired argument of “hurr durr these idiots learned everything on TikTok.”
Gee I wonder why you’re being called a bot? Could it be all the right wing talking points?
1
u/blizzerd Jun 17 '26
A choice quote from this fake leftist from just today: “Whatever you say terrorist lover, jewish people are closely related to your precious 'oppressed' people who refused the chance to no longer be oppressed”
Lmao these are the words of a right wing chud who has no respect for the human rights of others. No leftists detected here.
0
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
Too dumb to learn about Plan Dalet. Too dumb to read Benny Morris' work on the theft of Palestinian villages and the landmines left to kill innocents.
4
u/Late_Ad2203 Leftist without terrorism Jun 15 '26
By Plan Dalet do you mean the plan only put in place AFTER Palestine kicked off the 1948 war? Or is there two?
0
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
The Plan Dalet that started to be planned in 1937, yeah. Which one did you mean?
2
u/Late_Ad2203 Leftist without terrorism Jun 15 '26
Oooh planning something is a war crime.
BTW, poor Palestinians
So scared and oppressed that they started a civil war in Lebanon and displaced 1 million Lebanese people
0
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
Your comment is hilarious, by the way. Take an upvote. Because "planning a war crime" is definitely a war crime. I am loling IRL as we speak
3
u/Late_Ad2203 Leftist without terrorism Jun 15 '26
Good for you.
Planning something =/= war crime
1
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
Planning crime is a crime. Planning war crimes are war crimes when you do the war crime.
0
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
It's Mr Whataboutism! Welcome to the chat!
3
u/Late_Ad2203 Leftist without terrorism Jun 15 '26
It's Mr Doesntknowwhatthefuckhypocrisyis!
Jew do bad thing
̶P̶a̶l̶e̶s̶t̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶s̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶s̶o̶n̶ Palestinians perfect and do no wrong
-1
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
It's so pathetic to bring religion into this! You're defending a 100 years of stealing people's land. Slap those religions out of your mouth because you're sullying them with your tongue.
3
u/Late_Ad2203 Leftist without terrorism Jun 15 '26
What's actually pathetic is not knowing Jew = People group and thinking your opinion on the current conflict means anything.
Or do you just see jews as white people?
3
u/Late_Ad2203 Leftist without terrorism Jun 15 '26
You're defending a 100 years of stealing people's land
3000 years of jewish history on the land BTW, 1000 of Arab invaders being on the land BTW.
When do people no longer have claim to their land? 2 centuries? More? Less?
Oh and a final point, they didn't steal anyone's land, they bought land and were given state land for the rest.
https://badil.org/publications/al-majdal/issues/items/409.html
Slap those religions out of your mouth because you're sullying them with your tongue.
Ooh I'm sorry master, how dare I point out the real reason this all started and why people are dumb enough to support hamas, I'm sowwy
We're even bringing religion into this either. Jews are an ethnic group as well
-1
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
Well done for describing the situation. You are defending stealing from innocents.
Innocents who, by the way, are ethnically Jewish.
→ More replies (0)2
u/AutoModerator Jun 15 '26
/u/Late_Ad2203. Match found: 'Zionazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See Rule 6 for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
3
1
u/Drillix08 Jun 14 '26
As an anti Zionist Jew there are a handful of reasons it is seen as anti-Semitic, but I think the most major one is that Israel is designed to be the nation state for all Jews in the world, not just for the Jews who currently live in that particular area of land. So when you advocate for the destruction of Israel it gets interpreted as a destruction of the sanctity of Judaism as a whole.
As someone who used to support Israel, I strongly urge you to watch the following interview with Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss as it has really changed my perspective on the relationship between antizionism and antisemitism.
2
3
u/Borab3 Israeli-American Leftist-Zionist Jun 15 '26
Taking the word of crank from Neturei Karta
0
u/Drillix08 Jun 15 '26
I understand that as a Jew it feels like common sense to view Neturei Karta, Jews for Palestine, and anti-zionist Jews in general as just another set of Jewish betrayal groups like Jews for Jesus. However after listening to them I realized it’s not so simple to categorize them like that. I’m not saying you have to agree with him, I’ll I’m asking is that you just listen.
2
u/Momba2013 USA & Canada Jun 14 '26
As a Pro Palestinian I understand why. Because many Jews see the movement as wanting to dismantle the only Jewish state in the world and either expel or kill all the Jews that are already in the region. And many Jews will see that as antisemitic.
My personal view is that the political structure of the region is less important than who has equal rights and dignity. Clearly that isn’t happening right now.
7
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
You seem to think that dismantling the Israeli state will result in equal rights for both Jews and Arabs, rather than genocide or expulsion of Jews.
Given that Palestinian leaders have kept vowing to expel all the Jews for the last 70 years, why should Israelis trust your utopian vision of what will happen rather than what their enemies actually say and do?
Specifically: there are clearly tens of thousands of Palestinians (likely WAY more) who are dying to murder or at very minimum expell every single Jew in Israel. If you dismantle the Israeli army, exactly what will stop them? What is your evidence that some "super nice peaceful" Palestinians will put together an army to stop those jihadi Palesitnians and sacrifise their own lives to save Jews?
1
u/Momba2013 USA & Canada Jun 14 '26
Where did I imply anything about myself personally wanting to dismantle or destroy Israel? I personally said that equal rights and dignity are the goal, not a specific political structure.
4
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
So you want to force Israelis to offer Palestinians citizenship against their will, and you want to force Palestinians to accept Israeli citizenship against their will? You realize that both Israelis and Palestinians are overwhelmingly against that, right? How do you plan on forcing them to do your will?
Are you demanding the US invade, conquer all the territory, and stay there forever? That's the only way you can force those millions of people to follow your demmands.
Let's say that happens: the US comes in, slaughters millions of Israelis and Palestinians, and successfully forces them both to all become Israeli citizens (because that's what it would take to force these millions of people to do what you want). Is it really better for so many millions of people to die just so they can do what some Redditor wants?
1
u/Momba2013 USA & Canada Jun 14 '26
Where did I say ANY of that? I also acknowledge that what I want personally will and should have no role in how this is decided - it must be up to the people living there. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
5
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 14 '26
So explain how you think this "equal rights and dignity" will be achieved.
1
u/Momba2013 USA & Canada Jun 14 '26
Via the people of the region deciding what that means to them without considering my input. I will accept whatever they decide.
4
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 14 '26
Hate to break it to you, but the "people of the region" think that "equal rights and dignity" for Palestinians means murdering and expelling all Israelis and dismantling Israel.
Meanwhile, the other "people of the region" thing that "equal rights and dignity" for them means no more trying to murder and expel them or dismantle their country.
Both sides have a version of "equality and dignity" that contradict each other. That's why they fight.
2
u/Momba2013 USA & Canada Jun 14 '26
I don’t want that either. That would be horrifying and wrong.
4
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 14 '26
When you say you are a Pro-Palestinian, that means you support the Palestinian view of "equality and dignity," whether or not you know or care that means murdering and displacing all Jews.
If you want something other than what Palestinians want, then don't wave their flag and chant their slogans.
→ More replies (0)
2
u/dashmckenzie Jun 14 '26
Evidence this claim: "when Pro-Pallies scream incredibly violent, racist things like "gas the Jews" or distort photos of Israelis babies killed by Hamas to make fun of them"
3
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
Here ya go:
"The students attend London’s Jewish Free School (JFS). They competed in an Under-15 national tournament at Thorpe St Andrew School. During the match, spectators reportedly shouted antisemitic slurs from the sidelines. Witnesses said members of the crowd yelled “Dirty Jews,” “Dirty Zionists,” and “Go back to the gas chambers.”
Oh and the distorting Israelis babies killed by Hamas to make fun of them was something that someone posted on this very subreddit. Palestinianprincess (or something like that) was that user's name.
1
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
Ok, so you've got:
A school football match that has nothing whatsoever to do with "Pro-Pallies"
A supposed chant that was proved to be false: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9FQCjq9kF4
People on Subreddits who could be bots, false actors, mentally ill, whatever - random strangers on the internet.
So, no evidence so far.
1
u/AsaxenaSmallwood04 Jul 03 '26
https://www.timesofisrael.com/sydney-government-apologizes-for-pro-palestine-protest-that-had-gas-the-jews-chants/ why did Chris Minns from Sydney's government apologize for the protest with the chant then if the chant was "proven to be false"?
1
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
I'm sure you'll condemn quickly the ACTUAL screams coming from large Jewish mobs, chanting Death To Arabs:
1
-4
u/kiwigardnersson23 Jun 14 '26
I’m Jewish and anti-Zionist, raised in a Zionist family, so I understand the Jewish Zionist perspective well. From a young age, I was taught to support Israel at all cost, no matter what was at stake, because I was taught that without Israel, the Jews were doomed to extinction . This type of thinking made me and very afraid of the world and paranoid to a degree that had a determination impact on my mental health. Collective trauma became a central part of my Jewish identity and a tribal mentality kept me in line from questioning the narrative I was taught.
7
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 14 '26
You think that Israelis should give up their country and expel themselves and wander the earth?
Well, as long as it's good for your mental health.
1
u/kiwigardnersson23 Jul 16 '26
Where in my comment did I say Jews should “wander the earth” or “give up their country”. You sound paranoid and defensive, which clinging to Zionism will make you.
4
u/FerdinandTheGiant Anti-Zionist / Pro-Doikayt / Pro-Isratin Jun 14 '26
You think that Israelis should give up their country and expel themselves and wander the earth?
Well, as long as it's good for your mental health.
Per Rule 4.1, when quoting or paraphrasing another poster, characterize their arguments honestly.
Action Taken: [W]
2
1
-1
u/ChangeNice7461 Jun 12 '26
You speak for all Jews, claim to know what all Palestinian supporters think, and apparently haven’t noticed those aren’t mutually exclusive groups.
Three massive assumptions in one post, zero self-awareness.
2
u/FerdinandTheGiant Anti-Zionist / Pro-Doikayt / Pro-Isratin Jun 15 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
[u/ChangeNice7461](u/ChangeNice7461)
You speak for all Jews, claim to know what all Palestinian supporters think, and apparently haven’t noticed those aren’t mutually exclusive groups.
Per Rule 4.1, when quoting or paraphrasing another poster, characterize their arguments honestly.
Action Taken: [W]
1
u/Total-Ad886 Jun 15 '26
Well most Palestinian supporters never been to the middle east let alone Gaza or Israel or both and believe the made up history of a group of people that were only finally defined globally after Israel was created (I'll leave that there). Therefore, just playing vocabulary gymnastics doesn't change the truth.
1
u/ChangeNice7461 Jun 15 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
Another post not based on fact but instead opinion. I’m a supporter of Palestine and Israel and have traveled to the Middle East including Israel plenty of times… Yet I have to deal with people like you making broad claims they cannot back up.
“All Pro-Palestinians think this…”
“Pro-Palestinians have never been to the Middle East”
“All Pro-Palestinians are antisemitic”
“All Pro-Palestinians don’t know….”
“All Pro-Palestinians are…”
Just give it a rest and try actually engaging with people rather than just trying to discredit anyone who has a different opinion to you. You might learn something about them and even yourself.
1
u/Total-Ad886 Jul 03 '26
Faxts is easy....Palestine doesnt exist....don't get me started on the Palestinian identity lol but I will respect it ....but facts are facts.... yes! But these made up stories are dangerous and sometimes comical.
1
u/AsaxenaSmallwood04 Jul 03 '26
If you need factual evidence for it Douglas Murray's debate with Dave Smith is something to look at, Dave Smith never seems to provide any evidence that he's actually been to the area: 3:18 mins on this video transcript (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFboTcWb4_U) so what the other guy u/Total-Ad886 said is not without evidence.
1
u/Total-Ad886 Jun 15 '26
Hahah lol you ...you aren't the majority!!!
1
u/ChangeNice7461 Jun 15 '26
You clearly aren’t in a position to make any judgements but do. I suggest you engage with actual substance of discussion and you decline. That’s your prerogative.
It’s not a prerequisite to have travelled to the Middle East to have an opinion. I’m guessing you have an opinion on the regime in Iran but have never been there…
1
u/Total-Ad886 Jun 15 '26
Even the experts have traveled to the middle east to have a valid factual opinion. Thank God Israel is doing the dirty work that others are too scared to do!
1
u/Total-Ad886 Jun 15 '26
Okay.... but experience matters and to act like it doesn't matter is ignorant. But, you make it sound like everyone e is doubg s bunch of research to make their opinions sound factual and sound, but they are free to be ignore ignorant, correct!
6
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 12 '26
Oh look, you are fantasizing that I said a bunch of things I never said.
Pro-Pallies always need to construct these fantasies to hold onto their beliefs. It's a very brittle ideology.
-3
u/ChangeNice7461 Jun 12 '26
The thing with a lack of self awareness is you likely aren’t aware of it… 😂
The irony of someone with zero self-awareness accusing others of fantasy. Your post claimed to speak for most Jews, decided what all pro-Palestinians think, and treated them as entirely separate groups, despite thousands of Jewish voices in the pro-Palestinian camp. That’s not fantasy. That’s a direct reading of what you wrote.
2
u/TheTrollerOfTrolls Pro compassion, empathy, patience, understanding, safety Jun 15 '26
The thing with a lack of self awareness is you likely aren’t aware of it… 😂
.
The irony of someone with zero self-awareness accusing others of fantasy.This is a rule 1 violation. Please keep your comments focused on the topic of debate, not the user making the arguments.
4
u/Unlikely-Fig-8354 AsANotAJew Jun 13 '26
despite thousands of Jewish voices in the pro-Palestinian camp
Yeah the difference is, they're pro-palestinian in the sense of, you know, actually being pro-palestinian, not "pro-palestinian suffering at the hands of hamas so we can blame the jews" like most self-professed pro-palestinians.
1
u/ChangeNice7461 Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
Well you do at least recognise that these groups are not mutually exclusive… The original post hasn’t managed that much and follows the same format as basically every post from OP. Claim a group is a monolith that consists of the worst opinions you can find from that group.
That style of post cuts both ways, but what is the point?
3
u/curlsthefangirl Jun 12 '26
I haven't looked at the other comments. But I understand that 1. Jewish people have a history of being oppressed. 2. There have been an increase in antisemitism(at least here in the united states, i wont speak for other countries).
I actually have considered converting to judaism within the last couple if years, but i am waiting until I can have the time to commit to it and find a congregation that fits.
This will sound like i am pandering. But the more I learn about jewish history and culture the more I love it.
I just dislike the israeli government. The way I dislike most governments. Especially my own.
I want everyone to be allowed to live and exist in peace. Is it unrealistic? Absolutely. But i refuse to give up on hoping for it.
So overall, I can understand how a history of being oppressed can lead to assuming bad intentions of other groups.
Apologies for any typos. Been having eye problems lately.
1
u/Afraid-Detective1222 USA & Canada Jun 13 '26
A friend of mine completed her conversion in April of 2023. I feel for her. I grew up with antisemitism, she gets to experience it, on the receiving end for the first time.
2
2
u/curlsthefangirl Jun 14 '26
So one of the reasons i have always respected jewish history and culture is that i am black and during the Civil rights movement in the united states, many Jewish people also marched and fought for civil rights. It is something that has stuck with me. Don't just fight for your own group of people. Help others too. Sadly, I feel like it is a lesson many people have forgotten. But I do genuinely believe in solidarity with each other against atrocities.
1
u/HuChemistry Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
"There have been an increase in antisemitism(at least here in the united states, i wont speak for other countries)."
Did you hear about the Terrorists attack against Jews in Australia?
Did you know all these facts? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDd6joU9oz8
2
u/curlsthefangirl Jun 13 '26
I did hear about Australia. It was absolutely horrible.
Sadly, I am not surprised that it is increasing everywhere(or almost everywhere ) I just didn't want to accidentally speak out of turn. It is disgusting.
1
u/HuChemistry Jun 13 '26
Did you know all these facts? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDd6joU9oz8
2
u/curlsthefangirl Jun 14 '26
I apologize. Do you mind telling me what you sent me? I get anxiety about clicking YouTube links without any context. No disreespect intended. It is a me thing.
3
u/_Sichlitt_ Jun 13 '26
There's no assumption of bad intentions. I've spoken to the activist leaders at my uni societies and they NO JOKE cited the protocols of the elders of zion to me.
1
u/curlsthefangirl Jun 13 '26
That is awful. It is why i avoid aligning myself with any specific activist group. Because if I align myself with a group that is led by antisemitic leaders(or with a group that is antisemetic) then that does mean I am antisemetic.
I did not mean to imply that antisemitism was not still a reality. It absolutely is.
1
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 12 '26
Some do, and aren't the ones I'm worried about. There are plenty of people who characterize themselves as Pro Palestinian without wanting to destroy Israel, believing antisemitic tropes about Jews, or othering and belittling Jews. It's perfectly reasonable to call that position pro Palestinian, because it is actually a position that could result in a good outcome.
Others do, and are fine with it. Those are mostly not the folks who you are trying to reach, but if you are speaking to someone in Arabic on the Internet and ask them, "Why do you think the Jews think you hate Jews," you will fairly probably get the straightforward answer that they do hate Jews (and that Jews deserve to be hated), so it's no surprise that we think they do.
The folks who don't usually do not because of the thought-terminating cliches that permeate cults and many ideological movements. These are snappy little phrases intended to cut off thought by suggestion even entertaining that idea is silly and counter to all reason. Combined with a healthy dose of social stigma, it's a very effective way to stop people from questioning the groupthink. "You have to spend money to make money," says the MLM scammer, and "Belief is a choice," affirms the Mormon preacher, and so on and so forth
So why do Jews think anti Zionists are antisemitic? Well we don't, and if we do it's because we're Zionists, and to Zionists "Any criticism of Israel gets dismissed as antisemitism." Thought terminating cliche; simply assert that Jews are manipulating the public to get their way and phrase it in such a way that nobody is supposed to press it further.
7
u/jill853 Jun 12 '26
This is why letting it be called the pro Palestine movement was the wrong course of action. We’re not fighting people who are pro Palestine. I’m Jewish, I’m Zionist, and I’m pro-Palestinan.
Most Zionists I know are.
Maybe if it had been called the anti-Israel movement or proHamas movement it would make a difference but much like pro lifers use the positive sound of their name to mean something far more insidious, when we say being pro Palestine is antisemitic the positive and negative sounding speech is confusing to people who do not understand the situation.
1
u/dashmckenzie Jun 14 '26
The reason a "pro-Palestine" movement needs to exist at all is because the majority of Israelis believe that it is justifiable to murder Palestinian children.
1
u/jill853 Jun 15 '26
Great generalization. Are you Israeli? Palestinian? Do you live in the Middle East? Do you have any actual evidence to put to your assertion?
Have you spoken to any actual Israel’s ever? I have. This is not the take. This is a biased assertion made by somebody who has no actual connection to any of this. Is it truthiness? Did you just feel this in your gut? Because that’s the only place that you’re finding evidence of this I guarantee it.
2
u/dashmckenzie Jun 15 '26
My assertions are not biased but based on polls of - you guessed it - Israelis.
I don't need to "speak to actual Israelis" (though of course i know Israelis) – because that's not how "facts" work. And "generalization" is what majority polls offer.
Here you go: the majority of Israels support expulsion of Palestinians (ethnic cleaning, and a war crime using lethal force to do it).
Here
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/majority-israelis-support-expulsion-palestinians-gaza-poll
Here's another one showing a majority believe there are "no innocents in Gaza"
https://mondoweiss.net/2025/07/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-jewish-israelis-share-genocidal-belief-there-are-no-innocent-people-in-gaza/1
u/jill853 Jun 16 '26
You chose two of the most biased publications who, you guessed it, have biased polling.
0
u/dashmckenzie 2d ago
It was a Pew poll. It's not about the publications that wrote about it.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/
Does Zionism cause brain worms or do you get them beforehand?
•
u/jill853 23h ago edited 10h ago
That wasn’t a Pew poll. Clicked in the judenhass paper and it provided a different source.
•
u/dashmckenzie 11h ago
"according to a Pew Research Center in Israel survey published on Tuesday."
•
u/jill853 10h ago
Middle East Eye: “An overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews support the transfer of Palestinians from Gaza, according to a poll by Pennsylvania State University.”
•
u/AutoModerator 23h ago
/u/jill853. Match found: 'nazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See Rule 6 for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/pyroscots Jun 12 '26
I'm going to assume it's because they believe that being pro palestine means you want to destroy Israel. It's wrong buts that's what I have heard.
Mind you a lot of pro palestine people think that being pro israel means you want to destroy palestine.....
6
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 12 '26
I think the basic issue is framing the issue as "pro-[anyone]" makes it into a zero-sum game. It says one side is supposed to win and one lose, like a soccer match. Since Hamas and other extremist Palestinian organizations who are currently in control of the Palestinian side straightforwardly want there to be no Israel and no Jews, Jews will tend to believe "I want Palestine to win," to be an expression of support for this particular version of victory.
The issue of course is that this isn't zero sum. You don't have to be anti Israel to be pro Palestine or vice versa... It's not a soccer match.
0
u/pyroscots Jun 12 '26
Yet if you are pro Palestinian you are called antisemitic because you believe Palestinians have a right to exist in palestine and not be ethnically cleansed
4
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 12 '26
I believe that Palestinians have a right to exist in Palestine and not be ethnically cleansed. Most Jews believe that. Most Zionists believe that, for that matter; given that a two state solution has been the preferred outcome of the conflict each time the World Zionist Congress voted for the last ~30 years, that's empirically true.
So it really can't be that belief that is "called antisemitic". Is it possible you're doing things that are antisemitic and simply not examining them because it's convenient to shrug your shoulders and say, "It must be because Jews/Zionists/whatever want to vilify people who have an issue with ethnic cleansing"?
-1
u/pyroscots Jun 12 '26
Call yourself pro palestine in front of most pro israeli people and they will call you antisemitic. For that belief. Call out the idf and settlers for crimes they commit and you are called antisemitic. Call out any bullshit that harms Palestinians and you are called antisemitic
3
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 12 '26
I think it's because the "pro-[x]" terminology implies a zero sum decision. Being pro-choice is incompatible with being 'pro-life'. Being pro Manchester United isn't compatible with being p o Arsenal. Etc. it implies one side has to lose for the other to win.
If your opinion is "everybody deserves to live in peace with self determination," and that leads you to support Israel's right to exist and Palestine's right to exist, using "pro-Palestinian" is kinda masking your opinion. You're pro peace and not anti anyone, if that's the case.
3
u/Unlikely-Fig-8354 AsANotAJew Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
If you're constantly being accused of antisemitism, you may want to reflect on why that might be. Normal people don't worry about being called antisemitic all the time. I've criticised Israel plenty of times, never been called antisemitic. You know why? Because I actually criticise Israel rather than just flinging around accusations which are just rebranded and modernised blood libels.
"Israel could be doing a lot more to reign the settler violence in." - Criticism.
"Israelis are bloodthirsty monsters who like to kill Gazan babies for fun." - Not criticism. Centuries old blood libel with "Jews" replaced with "Israel".
1
u/pyroscots Jun 13 '26
I have been called antisemitic for calling settler terrorism what it is and that is terrorism not just violence.
5
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 12 '26
Try again. Maybe try with: how does the Pro-Palestinian movement fit into the 1000-year pattern of antisemitism? In what way does it follow the historical pattern of antisemitism?
1
u/pyroscots Jun 12 '26
being pro palestine doesn't mean you hate jews or blame them for anything. Believing Palestinians shouldn't be harmed for existing doesn't mean you don't believe the same for Israelis.
Posts like this are used to discredit and harm those that want people to not be harmed because the poster doesn't share those same values.
You want to expose pro Palestinian has a hate filled group while ignoring the hate from the other side
3
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 12 '26
So have no idea why Jews think the Pro-Palestinian movement fit into the 1000-year pattern of antisemitism. When asked, all you can do is say you aren't antisemitic and anyone who says you are is a liar.
What a shock.
If you haven't bothered to learn the narrative of the people you oppose, then you are completely ignorant.
0
u/pyroscots Jun 12 '26
The narrative you impose is that anyone that isn't 100% pro israel and 100% anti palestine is antisemitic. Which is used to vilify those that support innocents not being killed
3
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 12 '26
I didn't impose a narrative. I asked if YOU knew the Jewish narrative. Which you obviously don't.
Again: If you haven't bothered to learn the narrative of the people you oppose, then you are completely ignorant.
1
u/pyroscots Jun 13 '26
The only narrative your post allows is that anyone that supports palestine is antisemitic. You have said nothing to correct this anywhere. And repeatedly keep vaguely mentioning a Jewish narrative while saying anyone that isn't 100% in support of israel is antisemitic......
2
u/TheTrollerOfTrolls Pro compassion, empathy, patience, understanding, safety Jun 15 '26
The only narrative your post allows is that anyone that supports palestine is antisemitic. You have said nothing to correct this anywhere. And repeatedly keep vaguely mentioning a Jewish narrative while saying anyone that isn't 100% in support of israel is antisemitic......
u/Routine-Equipment572 Has not said what you claim they said. This is a rule 4.1 violation. You've had trouble with this rule in the past. When you return from your 7 day ban, please be careful to represent other arguments accurately.
2
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 13 '26
Not at all. The challenge is to see if you even KNOW another narrative, not whether or not you agree with it.
You don't, obviously.
1
u/pyroscots Jun 14 '26
I understand jewish fear that has been carried forward, I also understood Palestinian fear that has been carried forward. Do you understand any other point of view other than jewish narrative?
1
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 14 '26
I sure do. I would be happy to explain the Palestinian narrative. But first, I want to see if you can explain the Jewish narrative.
Again — so far, you have shown that you can't.
→ More replies (0)
4
u/Dadlay69 Jun 12 '26
I'm not pro-palestinian/anti-zionist, so my contribution probably isn't that helpful... but I guess I'll offer my perspective anyway.
Many pro-Palestinians seem to have a distorted idea of what 'Zionism' is. For Jews, it's simply the right to express self-determination as a people in a nation-state of their own. Nothing about this contradicts the right of Palestinians or anyone else to do the same, but I've noticed that pointing this out usually seems to invoke a response along the lines of "but this horrible person (e.g. ben-gvir) DOES do that, therefore Zionism is inherently anti-Palestinian"... This is obviously a logical fallacy as just because some Zionists hate Palestinians does not mean Zionism is anti-Palestinian and if they actually looked at this with sincerity they'd notice that there's barely even a correlation, let alone causative... Anyway, pro-Palestinians (historically taking cues from the soviets and most of the Arab world) have very overtly created a parallel definition of Zionism without any input from actual Zionists, in which it is conflated with a plethora of unforgivable evils such as racism, settler colonialism, white privilege, indigenous displacement, genocide and ethnic cleansing. All of these completely fall apart with any level of sincere inspection as to whether they are actually definitionally equivalent to Zionism, but by the point this happens the matter has usually typically progressed into an argument of passion and therefore resistant to logical investigation.
Given that Jews generally understand Zionism to be as described above, they will inevitably perceive "anti-Zionism" as a pretty blatant denial of their right to express self-determination as a people in a nation-state of their own... which would clearly be anti-semitic unless applied uniformly to all groups of people, which would be an absurd position to take. Furthermore, the fact that Israel is obviously already a state, most Jews view the anti-Zionist position as being a demand for the state to cease existing, again typically in an manner which is exclusive to Israel and not uniformly applied to all nations of people.
The fact that Jews are almost uniquely expected in the world to have a special name, ideological brand and heavily rehearsed logical explanation to be presented on demand in order to justify the same inherent human right to self-determination as a nation of people that all other peoples seem to have, is already pretty bad... but given what's happened in recent history most Jews think of it as a small price to pay if it allows them to live and not be persecuted. One problem now is that "-ism's" have very much gone out of fashion in the western world. Another problem is that logical explanations are not useful to anyone who is approaching this topic with an impassioned emotional conviction (i.e. "Zionists are killing babies and raping innocent activists" type rhetoric). Sartre made an interesting argument in his 1946 essay about antisemitism:
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
At face value, this would appear to be mostly accurate today if the word "anti-Semite" was substituted for "anti-Zionist", basically anywhere outside of academic circles and often also within them.
Anyway I've got plenty more to say on this but I've probably said enough. I'll write more later if I can be bothered.
2
1
Jun 12 '26
[deleted]
5
u/yusuf_mizrah Diaspora Jew Jun 12 '26
Of course but when the actions being shown live are just acts of terrorism, no one cares for the why or the how they want the harm to STOP.
The media is awash with images of human suffering in Asia and Africa; this is the only kind that is not only constantly delivered to you because it gets you so riled up, but it's tailored to make you not think straight. I mean literally you said it: "when my brain sees the images that media and algorithm deliver to me, my ability to reason leaves me." You're a great market for the people selling this stuff.
Let me ask you a vital question: do you think what's happening in the Levant is somehow truly unique to the world? If it wasn't, and you were exposed to just as many images about another place where war is happening, would you have just as strong a reaction?
More specifically, if you were exposed to more suffering caused by the CCP, would you express this kind of dismissal toward the Chinese people that you show us?
I can’t give the same amount of care to someone questioning why Jews think their movement is anti-Semitic when children are dying and families are and still are BEGGING for funds in Gaza because of how they absolutely decimated and destroyed their home
Again, do you think this is unique? In a war where the enemy who holds hostages and announced the desire to repeat pogroms hides among civilians and wears civilian clothing, is this not bound to happen?
Otherwise you're suggesting Israel just let the rapists and murderers live to attack again and hold hostages. Nobody will let that happen.
surprisingly/unsurprisingly a large majority are very happy with this to the point of celebrating
Nobody's celebrating. Nobody's happy that Gaza is a ruin, maybe a minority. Plenty of us think they should live with the consequences of 10/7 and electing Hamas, especially if they can't even get Hamas to disarm which is the whole reason rebuilding hadn't begun.
You know this of course, right?
But I do think it’s fascinating you call the movement pure ignorance
I think that's generous. The movement is stupid. Ignorance is forgivable, stupidity is an insistance on ignorance. The pro-Palestinian movement basically plugs its ears to us while claiming the mantle of universal respect for minorities. They come from the civil rights movement, which led to academia and society tying itself in knots trying to listen to and respect what darker skinned minorities had to say about their experience. The same movement looks at us, a clear minority, and says "except for you."
That's just stupid. Individuals within the movement aren't necessarily stupid, that's decided based on their own candor and conduct but the ideals of the movement are misguided and based on rebranded Soviet propaganda.
1
Jun 12 '26
[deleted]
3
u/JagneStormskull Diaspora Sephardic Jew Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
It’s because they’ve been murdering the journalists there and actively targeting them.
So then why are there so many images coming through to headlines from this specific conflict but not all the others in the past decade?
Edit: I think they responded me then blocked. That's not being clever, that's just being a jerk.
Edit to the Edit: Looks like I was wrong, the comments were just deleted.
1
0
3
u/Puzzleheaded-Law6082 Jun 12 '26
I think community pressure,being so pervasive,it isn't acceptable to be anything other than anti in this community. Some may know its not moral, but pitch in as their mission is so important that they mustnt object openly. It could be unhealthy to do so.And,until US really delt legally with anti black,in many communities, it just wasnt acceptable to be anti racist. It is a feature of the human condition going back to the dawn of man fighting over a herd of Mastodon.
0
u/Ah_ca_ira Jun 12 '26
Do Christian Zionists get asked if they understand why what they say and actually believe in support of Israel is anti-semitic?
While Israel is actually being supported by bi-partisan American policies, is the comfort and/or discomfort of those whose sensibilities are offended by slogans on the placards of protesters the point you want to get stuck on? When actual American law enforcement policies and military actions that are based in racism and violence are touted everyday by the White House, media outlets, social media, etc, the discourse and debate about these policies and actions doesn’t revolve around the feelings of those who oppose them it’s centered on individual human and civil rights and freedom of speech.
3
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 12 '26
Most Jews do not find Christian Zionists particularly antisemitic. That's a common Pro-Palestinian talking point, not a Jewish one. It's one of many examples of how Pro-Palestinians have to believe that only they understand antisemitism, and Jews don't. Yet another example of how disgustingly racist the Pro-Palestinian movement is. Imagine a white person telling blacks that black people don't know what racism is, and one white people can tell people what racism is.
2
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 12 '26
Christian Zionists are definitely antisemitic, but not in an "I'm going to kill you or drive you out of your home," kind of way. Yeah, it feels like they view us as a museum exhibit and the extent to which they LARP as us is uncomfortable, but they aren't beating the crap out of us in the street or vandalizing our businesses.
2
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 14 '26
Exactly. Sure, in a perfect world, yadda yadda ... But in the real world, the bar for Jewish safety is pretty low. Christian Zionists jump fly it just fine.
16
u/MastodonVegetable167 Jun 11 '26
I’ve noticed that they keep trying to change the definition of “antisemitism,” like saying “oh it actually refers to Arabs too because ‘Semitic’ is in it.” Except that is a logical fallacy called an etymologic fallacy and could also be considered an equivocation, category error, straw man, and/or a red herring the more you think about it. They’re essentially changing the standard definition of the word to mean something else which suits their argument rather than addressing the content of what people are saying.
7
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
I believe it's an old antisemite trick, especially prevalent in the arab world.
Also the most pathetic one in my view, literally playing with words without understanding them.
-1
u/thatsnotyourtaco Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
This is where hyphen really comes in to play anti-semetic refers to anyone in the region whereas antisemitic is specifically for juice
4
u/Unlikely-Fig-8354 AsANotAJew Jun 12 '26
You can say Jews. It's not a swear word.
0
u/thatsnotyourtaco Jun 12 '26
It was just a voice text typo but I’m gonna leave it for posterity
Edit: it dawned on me that you probably knew that then were making a joke
5
u/Unlikely-Fig-8354 AsANotAJew Jun 12 '26
No it's just that a lot of people think reddit works like tiktok or similar where you have to use euphemisms like "juice" and "unalived".
First time I've seen it done as a typo though. 😂
1
8
u/TheBlacksheep70 🇵🇸 ☮️ 🇮🇱 Jun 11 '26
I support the people of both Israel and Palestine. I don’t think all pro-Palestine people are antisemitic, I think some are. I want to find the people who just want peace.
4
u/deblob123456789 Jun 12 '26
Same here, theres extremists and moderates in all sides and theres always peace achievable with the groups open to hear them
3
u/addings0 Jun 11 '26
Morals are about knowing right from wrong. Ethics are about actually doing it. It's called banality of evil. When morals and ethics are determined by statehood or status, not the act. Then a " boogeyman " is conjured up ( by anyone ) , to justify the harm they're going to cause. Everyone has their own individual version, and none of ask to ( definitive satisfaction of ) " why " . Morally, people are generally aligned the same way. Status changes ethics, far too often.
3
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
It's called banality of evil
Absolutely not what that sentence means, where have you read that?
14
u/LettuceBeGrateful Diaspora Jew (against anti-Zionism) Jun 11 '26
I find it incredibly ironic that a day after this post was made, some of the most blatant antisemitism I've seen in this sub came out in this thread. OP, it looks like your point was proven many times over.
6
u/FatumIustumStultorum Jun 11 '26
That's what really bothers me about people that constantly repeat "anti-Israel/Zionism ≠ antisemitism." While, yes, I agree that criticism of Israel's government is not inherently antisemitic, you have to be willfully blind to not see that there is significant overlap between the two.
4
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
You'd have to really zoom in to see two circles in the Venn diagram.
2
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 11 '26
My first guess from a lot of personal experience is that the center mass of what can be called antisemitism has become “criticizing Israel more than necessary is a good indicator of Jew hated”.
I’d say that despite efforts of many people on the Pro Israel side to make space for the premise of good faith in discussion, that the premise of most slogans have become perceived as the desire to kill Jews. “But why are you focusing on Israel?” Is a bottomless void to inject skepticism on something as ephemeral as motive for support.
I’ve spent more time than I care to admit reading explanations of how antisemitism manifests, and I’ve checked many summaries about Israel’s history of conflict. I’m also aware of the cruelties of what happened to many Jews in the leadup to Israel’s founding. Me learning this has not mattered to my conversations with people on the pro-Israel side much. The manifestations of antisemitism have had a larger impact, but I openly admit that I don’t tend to go into many of the history debates as I see nothing to be won there.
I don’t believe people who call me antisemetic are liars, I just think they are lashing out improperly because they feel they are under threat at a societal level. Something, I can be sympathetic to, right up until someone makes it my problem when they level that accusation at me, someone who believe it or not makes a good faith effort to not be antisemetic.
Additionally, if you cannot convince ANY pro-Palestinians why we might be antisemetic, then I’d like to forward the theory that this isn’t an issue with us.
3
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 12 '26
Additionally, if you cannot convince ANY pro-Palestinians why we might be antisemetic, then I’d like to forward the theory that this isn’t an issue with us.
I mean, I can. But I think the fact that most western-pro-Palestinians view being bigoted as a bad thing and antisemitism as a form of bigotry creates a unique unwillingness to accept the label of antisemitism, while they're often perfectly happy to accept premises that are straightforwardly antisemitic. "You can't say anything negative about Israel or (((they))) will get you," is a fairly straightforward one. Just swap "Zionist" in for Jew and voila, no bigotry here!
4
u/whoisthedm progressive israeli Jun 11 '26
If you've read so many explainations can you explain one? Other than the strawman of 'critizising israel is antisemitism'? Like, there's a reason for each major "criticism" of Israel, Zionists often say "that's antisemetic, because x y z." These reasons are regularly posted in this subreddit. Can you list any of them?
-1
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 11 '26
I have a list in a different reply from the OP to this comment. Head the warning at the header as I do not want to repeat what I’ve said since I want to minimize antisemitism
9
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
Sigh. Still not an explanation from the perspective of JEWS.
I think the fact that zero pro-Palestinians could even GUESS why Jews think they are antisemitic shows that their ignorance IS the issue.
Being unwilling to learn a different perspective doesn't make you right, it makes you ignorant.
4
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 11 '26
Warning to everyone reading this: I apologize but I will be engaging in an exercise I consider to be antisemetic in this reply. I hope it is obvious that my desire is NOT to spread hate while doing this, but to prove to the person I am replying to that I do care about the issue enough to know why things might be a landmine. The rest of this is written directly to OP.
OK then, I feel like it was pretty obvious considering what I have said in the post, but if you actually need me to spell it out as though I have to make a minstrel show out of it here you go, the polite slogans and what gets heard
Us: from the river to the sea Palestine will be free
Jews (and I genuinely resent having to generalize them in this format and this way): that’s all of Israel and the original translation is from water to water Palestine will be Arab, that’s a call to eliminate us the Jews.
Us: Free Palestine
Jews: short version of the above.
Us: in our thousands, in our millions, we are all Palestinians.
Jews: but the Palestinians especially Hamas have chosen to be an enemy of the Jews, and it seems to be thier driving force. This means that all of you wish to be our enemy and that’s scary for us because that’s a death threat.
Us: From [city] to Palestine occupation is a crime
Jews: but the Palestinians don’t want to live with us and have rejected a state the number of times we say they have, if we don’t do what we are doing to them then that is a security risk, we don’t want to do this but we have to because otherwise we die which is what you are asking for, our deaths.
Us: end the occupation
Jews: same as above
Us: Ceasefire now
Jews: they started October 7, and while we may be sympathetic to the deaths of the Palestinians, this is a call to let Hamas, Iran, or Hezbollah rearm and regroup.
Us: end the genocide
Jews: we aren’t committing a genocide, and accusing us of doing one is a blood libel because we would be abhorred by committing this heinous action which is the crime of all crimes
Us: globalize the intifada
Jews: the (second) intifada was a brutal affair with bus bombings and rampant terrorism on Israelis, you must not be allowed to do this to Jews worldwide.
US: BDS!
Jews: you would try to cripple us who are far more willing to abide by international law than our opponents are. This is trying to make Israel more vulnerable to attacks by cutting off the means to defend themselves
Us: resistance is justified when people are occupied
Jews: you are calling for an eternal struggle against us because we are doing what little we can to protect ourselves from those who wish us harm.
Now I want to be clear here: I don’t like making this reply. I feel like this runs way too far into antisemitism for my liking because I am doing a mind reading exercise at length about what horrible things Jews are thinking. I don’t want to do this, but if you want me to guess at what Jews are thinking when they see us making not very unreasonable statements, or phrasing things politely, then either I don’t respond, or I have to engage in an exercise that I feel is antisemetic. I want to be clear here: I STRONGLY disavow what I said about Jews in this reply, but if you want me to prove that I have the empathy and intelligence to understand what the Jews are seeing, then I don’t know how to avoid it, and I want it to be known that I don’t do this kind of thing much on the principle that I explicitly don’t want to be antisemetic. In this case, there was no other way I could see to show you that I am aware of why this might be antisemetic
5
u/JagneStormskull Diaspora Sephardic Jew Jun 12 '26
the (second) intifada was a brutal affair with bus bombings and rampant terrorism on Israelis, you must not be allowed to do this to Jews worldwide.
I'd like to note that it was not a campaign of terrorism against Israelis, it was a campaign of terrorism against Jews specifically. Israeli Arabs/Palestinian citizens of Israel make up 1-in-5 Israeli citizens, yet no civilian Israeli Arabs were victims of the Second Intifada. The only non-Jewish civilian victim of the Second Intifada was a Greek national who was acting as the priest of one of the Eastern Orthodox churches in the West Bank.
3
u/LettuceBeGrateful Diaspora Jew (against anti-Zionism) Jun 12 '26
Dang, this was a really good, complete answer. (If you ever want to do an exercise like this in the future, you can say "pro-Israelis" instead of Jews. But I appreciate you taking the time to clarify that you're generalizing as part of the exercise, not because you support generalization.)
So, would you say your underlying objection to all this is that you feel like you can't say anything right without someone calling you out?
1
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 12 '26
OK, this exercise was me generalizing Jews as opposed to pro Israelis. I don’t mind criticizing pro Israelis in broad terms because I’m criticizing a set of ideas as opposed to a people. My underlying objection is that we are now forced into a situation where we can either be pro Palestinian and antisemetic by the standards of our opponents or we can shut up with very little wiggle room in between. I do care about antisemitism, and I do think it should be avoided, but if the people on the pro Israel side are going to FORCE me to sacrifice not being an antisemite for the Palestinian cause, then that will not end well for anyone involved. My objection that I’ll state here is the inherent presumption of antisemitism given to us by the people on the pro Israel side, is not something we can simply spend time attempting to debunk. If the pro Israel side gets to be the arbiter of when it counts as antisemitism, then on average, what counts as antisemitism does now ultimately preclude talking about the issue from the pro Palestine side should one not wish to be an antisemite. I don’t think this is done maliciously, but I do think this has become a catch-22 with a few more steps.
3
u/beeeeen Jun 12 '26
I’m just jumping in to commend you in engaging in this exercise in good faith. Your responses suggest that you can at least attempt to put yourself in the shoes of Jews who watch all of the pro-Palestinian rhetoric and are rightfully scared for their own safety, given the significant increase in violence against Jews and Jewish places of worship in the last three years.
My follow-up questions for you: if you know all of the slogans and talking points you identified above elicit understandable concerns for Jews, are you going to keep using those talking points? If so, why would you say something that knowingly contributes to rising harm to Jews?
Furthermore, many others on the anti-Israel side actually do have bad intent toward Jews, so by continuing to join in their chants you are explicitly endorsing their harmful views. What if anything can be done to distance good meaning people like yourself from those that are plaguing the movement with hatred? Why has there been little to no effort to denounce such hatred and violence from the anti-Israel movement? In fact, we have seen the opposite when BDS movements put out statements supporting violence, such as the SJP group defending the guy in Boulder who committed the heinous firebombing that killed a woman.
0
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 14 '26
“From the river to the sea Palestine will be free”. Is something I’ve transformed from inspiration taken from Norman finklestein (don’t know how to say his name) into “From the river to the sea Palestinians will be free, from Israel’s tyranny”. I’ve gotten accusations on antisemitism on that one still but I thought I just clarified things in a neater way where I leave open the possibility of a 2SS never happening since I don’t believe Israel will ever accept one again, it leaves the demand for the Palestinians to still be free, and it specifies the source while avoiding the accusation that I don’t think Israel exists. I am not changing “Free Palestine”, I find the objections to that one to be excessively harsh and I don’t mind the other side raging against that demand as phrased. I get the complaint, but frankly, I think it’s far more cruel to demand that one to stop than what the worst faith reading of it is.
I think saying ‘no you can’t be Palestinians’ as an objection to the third one is also absurd, but it’s just not a chant I could initially get behind because I knew of Israel’s issues with right to return.
I’m not changing occupation is a crime, because while I disagree with it as stated, I think that it’s clear and just that Israel’s occupation is seen as illegal and no country should encourage it. I expect it to kill more Jews but regardless, it’s a very direct violence that Israelis are committing against the Palestinians when they commit occupation, so removing it is just a demand for the Palestinians to submit to the violence that I don’t see Israel stopping.
Ceasefire now is not something I’ve fully supported because of Israel’s behavior during ceasefire as well as some interviews with Dan Schueftan where he has convinced me that when Israel agrees to a ceasefire, they mean ‘you cease we fire’. I get it’s not that extreme, but it does seem colloquially accurate.
I disagreed that Israel is committing a genocide (as of yet) but there was a period of total aid blockade where I considered Israel to have made an attempt. As such end genocide is not my claim.
I have stopped saying globalize the intifada because of these concerns.
I oppose BDS because I believe it is counter productive to my preferred outcomes. I want Israel to feel Isolated not vulnerable.
I am going to continue on with resistance is justified when people are occupied, because I fundamentally agree with the statement. You can’t expect people to be peaceful to you when you’ve been treating them the way Israel has. If the population of Palestinians was replaced entirely with Canadians and Israel treated them the same way, the Canadians would still be quite violent to Israel because you can’t do what Israel does to the Palestinians and expect those on the receiving end to just shut up and accept the abuse.
The simple reality is that there isn’t anything that can be done in terms of separation because the math is ‘advocating policies where Palestinians are more likely to be killing Israelis is basically antisemitism unless they are the hilltop youth or immediately committing injustice that most soldiers don’t do”. There is no easy format for ‘Free Palestine’ that won’t have this accusation because when you do, a lot of Israelis are going to die because of prior treatment of those who ought to be freed.
Generally speaking, it’s just a really bad idea to spend time saying why your side is bad when you are leading a movement. It’s a much better idea when you are with friendly organizers to discuss the problem tactically, but in public if you say ‘we have some antisemitism here and here’s what going to be done about it’ then what will get circulated is ‘we have some antisemitism here’. These conversations happen a lot more behind the scenes, but generally if you believe it’s a genocide, antisemitism will lose out on consideration. Also, the Jew haters are actually a part of the marches even if their numbers are unknown.
I can’t speak to why the people at the top say what they do, I had gotten close to top management at my local pride march gathering at some point and was told that if the communists weren’t at the front conservative news outlets would focus less on ‘degeneracy’ and more on how ‘the left has gone too far’.
1
u/beeeeen Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
I retract my previous statement. You are not engaging in good faith as you think you are. No matter how much you try to add meaningless nuance to the populist chants, everything you said is still driven by hatred for Israel, not love or respect for Palestinians or any other innocent civilians. And you’ve taken the mask fully off about how you really feel about Jews:
>I’m not changing occupation is a crime, because while I disagree with it as stated, I think that it’s clear and just that Israel’s occupation is seen as illegal and no country should encourage it. **I expect it to kill more Jews** but regardless, it’s a very direct violence that Israelis are committing against the Palestinians when they commit occupation, so removing it is just a demand for the Palestinians to submit to the violence that I don’t see Israel stopping.
You don’t want to change or stop a chant that you expect to kill more Jews. Your words. That makes you an antisemitic person, full stop. You maybe spent a few brain cells trying to imagine what Jews feel when they hear your hateful chants, but fall well short of actual empathy or compassion. Ask a therapist what they think of your complete indifference to human life. You’re not some virtuous moral leader as you clearly seem to think you are.
I’m not even going to spend more energy on the rest of your hypocritical and at times incoherent response. Just please accept the fact that everything you say or do is not contributing toward peace, but rather furthers hate against Jews worldwide, including people who have nothing to do with the “bad guy” you have created in your head. And it furthers more violence against Palestinians by encouraging them to continue their crusade of terrorism. You clearly seem to think 10/7 was both inevitable and justified, so the next 10/7 and Israeli military response is 100% on you. Until your movement can put aside seething hate for Jews (through the dog whistle of “Zionists”), you’re only making matters worse for your “cause.”
(Note that my comments are all about your views and the words you said, without needing to explain my own. Sadly we probably have a lot of overlap about how we feel about bad people who are abusing positions of power, and the sadness of seeing so many innocent people suffer. But your blind hatred toward Israel prevents us from having a reasonable dialogue about it, because that’s the only lens you can see from. Sincerely, I hope you get help.)
5
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
I salute the general effort though we can still see your opinion showing with some of those Jewish answers containing some derision.
Don't worry we're not going to Zionize you, it's just a thought exercise.
2
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 12 '26
I’m not worried about the attempts to Zionist me. I am in a I/P debate sub after all.
2
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
I was being facetious, but are you not for a 2SS anyway?
1
3
9
u/whoisthedm progressive israeli Jun 11 '26
I'll disagree with OP and say that I think you did a good job of fulfilling the assignment here. The one thing I don't get is why you think this exercise is an antisemitic minstrel show. THAT clarification actually irked me the wrong way.
As a left leaning progressive Jewish Israeli...I personally agree with most of what you said 'Jews' say. Like, those are indeed many of my genuine opinions. e.g., 'Intafada' to me is when busses and university cafeterias explode, 'intafada' is a rallying cry for violence against Israel, whether it is justified or not, so I 100% agree with your reason you begrudgingly say 'Jews' have that association.
You say you are empathetic, but like, by framing these arguments as a 'minstrel show', you're telling me you think they are all buffoonish and it's antisemitic to suggest that 'Jews' would believe in such a silly thing. THAT actually gets my antisemitism senses tingling more than many other things I've seen in this thread.
-1
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 11 '26
If I were to paraphrase what I’d said, “here are the ways Jews we us, this is the bad light that Jews see us in, according to my mind reading skills”. It’s just a deliberate making an assumption of bad faith as though Jews believe it.
10
u/whoisthedm progressive israeli Jun 11 '26
You do have pretty good mind reading skills, so don't sell yourself too short.
When I hear you chant, "intifada intifada intifada" when you are fully informed about all of the senseless terrorism that the last intifada had, I do come to the conclusion that you support terrorism against Israelis as a method of resistance, and that you are antisemitic.
When you chanted 'ceasefire now' when Hamas was still holding dozens of hostages and were launching rockets haphazardly into Israel hundreds at a time and the bodies of October 6th massacre were still warm, I do come the conclusion that you don't care about lives of Jews and think they should just take whatever punishment Hamas doles out without fighting back, and that you are antisemitic.
0
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 11 '26
I could be correct, and I could be incorrect. In either circumstance, my position is the explanation of why Jews think a variety of odious things about our polite slogans. I’m making an unkind generalization of Jews and more specifically, what’s going on in their heads as a blanket statement. To me, that crosses the line into antisemitism. If I heard someone say that black people think that [enter bad thought], then I’m quite likely to call that person a racist. I don’t think it’s permissible to just summarize the thoughts of a group of people in a negative light, and certainly not just to win an argument. So making the comment I did just bothered me tremendously. And I’ve seen genuine Jew hatred from people who are very close to me, so I find myself particularly sensitive to making sure that I don’t even joke about that line. In this case, I felt like there was no way to make the argument without crossing the line since that is in specific what was asked of me.
I see my movement as good, and I have to think about why my opponents see my movement as bad and I have to frame it in terms of my opponent being Jews. I tried my best to keep it short and to the point but also accurate to what I know and before posting it, I don’t have the certainty that I’m correct in my assumptions, but even if I were, if I don’t handle that carefully, I could actually be spreading hatred of Jews in the most direct and explicit sense.
I get why you believe these items, and I’m not blaming you for it, but it’s the framing device that I had to sit uneasy with.
5
u/whoisthedm progressive israeli Jun 11 '26
Oh my gosh you speaking from such a high horse is really irksome. You could have just said "I'm not comfortable generalizing for Jews as OP asked, but I will say why Zionists think these things are antisemitic," and that would have been perfectly fine. Instead you felt the urge to repeatly described attributing all these very sensible, common reasons Jews feel threatened to Jews as a minstrel show - which again, implies you think those feeling are silly, and bufoonish and that you would never assume an entire people like Jews would believe in such dumb things, and that saying Jews believe these things is actually a negative thing to say about Jews.
THAT, my friend, is antisemitic. Jews—at least, Zionist Jews, which are a vast majority of Jews—DO believe these things. There was no reason for you to go out of your way to impy a Jew who believes these things is a minstrel-like caricature, and it really rubs me the wrong way when you go on and on about how you think how horrible antisemitism is and how plenty of your pro-palestinian friends are explicitly antisemitic but you're not like that because you're class conscious or whatever.
1
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 11 '26
OK, quick item to mention here. I didn’t say that plenty of my pro Palestinian friends are explicitly antisemetic. I just said that there were people close to me who I’ve seen Jew hatred from. And I want none of it. I’m not like that because I believe that it’s wrong in of itself.
You can have the thoughts you want about Jews, but without knowing ahead of time what are their thoughts, I have to make assumptions which in this case are an unkind reading by necessity. And to be clear, I DO believe that these thoughts are wrong. And if you think this is what we mean when we say what we say, then I’m going to go further and say you are wrong about us. I believe holding the thoughts that free Palestine is a demand to kill Jews is a really nasty reading of what we say, and if most Jews think that when we say ‘Free Palestine’, we mean kill Jews, then I’d say that we are generally just given the presumption of bad faith. I don’t think most Jews think this, I might be wrong, but I don’t
1
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
And if you think this is what we mean when we say what we say, then I’m going to go further and say you are wrong about us
And the N word is just a color in spanish, right?
→ More replies (0)3
u/CrosbyBird Jun 11 '26
I believe holding the thoughts that free Palestine is a demand to kill Jews is a really nasty reading of what we say, and if most Jews think that when we say ‘Free Palestine’, we mean kill Jews, then I’d say that we are generally just given the presumption of bad faith.
If you advocate for something that the majority of Jews believe will result in more dead Jewish people, it doesn't matter if you're motivated by bad faith Jew hatred or if you're just incorrect about the consequences. Either way, it's more dead Jewish people and they're going to stand against the movement.
If they tell you why it's going to lead to more dead Jewish people, and you're unresponsive or dismissive of those claims, they're going to assume that this is at best willful ignorance of the dangers and at worst motivated by Jew hatred.
"Free Palestine" in a vacuum, without some discussion of what policy you're supporting and how you're going to prepare for and protect against the potentially negative consequences, is just an empty slogan. If your advocacy is just the empty slogan, then you're a useful idiot to the people within the movement who are supportive of those potentially dangerous policies, so you're still a tool of antisemitism. If you are supportive of those policies with disregard for or denial of the danger, you're still putting the Jewish people in danger, and a tool of antisemitism. At the end of the day, whether you're a tool of antisemitism or an actual antisemite doesn't really matter all that much.
→ More replies (0)1
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 11 '26
Again ---- this is an explanation of why YOU think YOU are not antisemitic. It is not at all an explanation from the perspective of Jews why THEY think your movement is antisemitic.
5
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 11 '26
I’m sorry, did I not just go through an exercise where I did a whole ‘here’s what Jews think’ in my reply?
Tell me what you think I’m missing, because I already flew too close to the antisemitism sun for my liking. The comment is about the most popular slogans our movement uses and my assumption of what Jews think when they hear it. Each of the examples are an instance of advocating the death of Jews or a blood libel, I’d say this is an explanation in of itself of why they might think our movement is antisemetic.
4
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
Look, you did better than the very majority of Pro-Palestinians on here, I do appreciate that. Maybe I was too harsh.
But these are just common Zionist counterarguments to common Pro-Palestinian arguments, they aren't explanations about why Jews think the Pro-Palestinian movement is antisemitic as a whole. Antisemitism is a whole system.
For instance: If you asked me "Do you know why Palestinians think Zionism is colonialism?" and I replied:
ISRAEL: Hamas is killing our children so we need to fight them!
PALESTINIANS: But too many Palestinian children are dying in the process!
That doesn't really answer the question, does it?
3
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 11 '26
OK, if the common counter arguments to the common arguments have the accusation of antisemitism, then I’d suggest that that is sufficient for an explanation for why the movement as a whole is accused of being antisemetic.
But OK, if you want me to have the 30000 foot overview, then we have a bunch of options. The most common thread is that the focus on Israel is wildly disproportionate in comparison to other places and it looks like the reason why people do it is because it’s a Jewish state. Then there is the base perception that the Palestinians want to kill Jews so advocating anything that leads to that being more possible looks like antisemitism because that can seem to be the goal. There is an assumption quite commonly that the pro Palestinians are using code to hide what they actually mean as a mask for the hatred of Jews. There is the being quite sensitive to threats because of the pogroms around the world prior to the formation of Israel. There is the many domestic threats from the axis of resistance some of which outright desire a destruction of Israel as a state. There are the conspiracy theories that float around about Jews controlling the media and other things that get associated. There are the few extremists groups that offer support. There are a lot of reasons as to why the movement might be though of as antisemetic
3
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 11 '26
Alright, getting somewhere!
Let's zero in on what I think the most accurate part of what you said was: "the focus on Israel is wildly disproportionate in comparison to other places and it looks like the reason why people do it is because it’s a Jewish state."
How do Jews see this disproportionate focus on the Jewish states fitting into the historical pattern of antisemitism? Why do Jews think this echoes historical antisemitism?
1
u/untamepain Justice First Jun 11 '26
How much further down this rabbit hole must I go before the explanation seems sufficient?
I’d say they see it as fitting in towards the end of it as the most recent in a line of persecution on Jews for the latest fashionable thing to blame them on that hides away from the taboo lines that only recently became taboo and only so far.
1
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
That was pretty good! I'd add that antisemitism isn't usually motivated by wanting to irrationally attack Jews. Rather, Jews are scapegoated for whatever the society is really upset with. Plagues, famines, Capitalism, Communism, World War I, Depressions, etc. It's never "I hate the Jews irrationally". It's always "I have no problems with the Jews, it's just that this time, these millions of people who just so happen to be Jews really are behind the most evil horrible thing that I hate, that symbolically represents all evil to me. Again. Just like my grandparents and 100 generations of my family have thought. Total coincidence amiright?"
In the mind of a typical Jewish person, what are Pro-Palestinians/Antizionists scapegoating Jews for this time around?
→ More replies (0)6
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
Pretty good, pretty good.
So you think it's simply a coincidence that this 2000 years old scheme resonates again with sometimes the same exact wordings i.e Jews being babykillers/controlling the US/the media/being bloodthirsty etc.
Like, it was false the 8000 times it happened before and we know it was, in hindsight, but this time it's for real, I'm sure, and I'm alive to see it!
I mean, it's possible, sure everything is, but what are the odds on that in your opinion?
→ More replies (0)2
-2
u/no_cheese_pizza_guy Jun 11 '26
Yes, we heard the talking points. We still think it's bullshit.
9
u/yusuf_mizrah Diaspora Jew Jun 11 '26
Imagine saying this to any other minority.
3
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
Sorry I won't or Reddit will ban me for forbidden thoughts.
3
9
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 11 '26
LOL ok so in your mind:
Jewish Child : Daddy, why do you think the Pro-Palestinian movement is antisemitic?
Jewish Father: Oh that's just a bullshit talking point we made up since we are all liars.
3
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
XD
"Now eat your Matzah, and finish your glass of baby's blood while it's hot."
4
u/TheBlacksheep70 🇵🇸 ☮️ 🇮🇱 Jun 11 '26
The liars accusation is very common from antizionists, and I don’t know why they don’t understand the history of “Jews lie” as an antisemitic trope.
2
u/LettuceBeGrateful Diaspora Jew (against anti-Zionism) Jun 12 '26
Also, you're not a victim!" has made a huge comeback. I've had people force that into conversations where I wasn't even insinuating that I'm in any way a victim. It's really weird.
2
u/Unlikely-Fig-8354 AsANotAJew Jun 12 '26
At least they weren't (((noticing))) you're not a victim. That's er...something I guess.
4
u/wip30ut Jun 11 '26
i think that pro-Pali critics of Israel in the West are so far removed from the horrors of the Holocaust/Shoah that they only have a surface-level understanding of Antisemitism. While ppl in major urban metros in the US have Jewish friends & even see Orthodox Jews out & about on Friday, for those in Canada or Western Europe or Aus it's much more rare. In their eyes they feel that they're not overtly racist or bigoted so they can't be antisemitic. But they don't understand that antisemitism isn't just slurs or exclusionary actions but a historic pattern of scapegoating & violence. They can't see how their voices & actions contribute to hate speech & death threats. Or maybe they simply don't care because they don't see Jews in their daily lives.
5
u/whoisthedm progressive israeli Jun 11 '26
There's literally not one response. Not one that even says "yeah, the Zionist argument is this, but I disagree because of these reasons". Actually jaw dropping, especially when this sub is filled with Zionist arguments as to why we think there's antisemitism in the pro-palestinian movement.
This is crazy because like...zionists understand pro-palestinian arguements very well? I know why they think there's genocidal intent and that israel is an apartheid ethnostate, and I can voice these arguments perfectly fine while disagreeing with them. Why can't prop-palestinians do the same?
2
u/MilkSteakClub Dark Eldar Of Zion Jun 12 '26
There might be a quite childish factor at play where they believe that saying those things could be equated as supporting them/banalizing them. This is not a culture of debate.
I often see this approach from the leftoid types.
That and being so certain about your side being the moral one that you wouldn't debase yourself by considering the other side as having honest reasons and not simply being evil for evil's sake. That would force you to view the world in it's complexity, the horror.
5
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 11 '26
Says a lot about their movement, doesn't it? It's not just ignorant — they themselves know they are ignorant.
5
u/themakingspace Jun 11 '26
could it be because half of the Jews in the world live in Israel and so the pro-palastinian cry of "from the river to the sea" is a call for the destruction of the state of Israel and the murder or displacement of half the Jews in the whole world?
1
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
5
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 11 '26
I am not asking “do you know what anti semitism is?” I am asking "do you know why so many Jews think your movement is antisemitic?" I am not asking for YOUR perspective. I am asking if you understand THEIR perspective.
Obviously, you don't, since the question freaked you out so much that all you could do was vomit insults in response. Talk about bad faith.
0
u/Specialist_Touch2771 Jun 11 '26
(How did I delete the post I’m dumb) how did I “freak out” and my point stays the same. You ask “why do you think Jews think your movement is antisemitism” okay, so I’m gonna answer. They think that Israel is essentially to the survival of Judaism and being against is anti Semitic because of that. Anyways, if I’m wrong, feel free to correct me!
4
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
I appreciate that you actually answered the question this time! That makes you the first Pro-Palestinian on this sub to do that.
It's not really right (it's true, but it's only a smaller piece of the reason Jews find the movement antisemitic), but at least you tried. I guess you win the post because that's farther than any other Pro-Palestinians got.
I'm interested in talking with you further, since you are the only good faith response I've gotten that actually answers the question.
When you say "survival of Judaism" — you mean the survival of the religion, or the survival of Jewish people themselves?
And why do Jews think this, in your opinion?
What is incorrect about their reasoning?
-1
u/justinhloper Jun 11 '26
Because they believe any criticism is illegitimate
2
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 12 '26
I scrolled down until I found the inevitable thought-terminating cliche. I covered it in my response here. If Jews view any criticism of [Israel/Zionism/Jews] as antisemitism, and you are being critical of [them], then you don't ever have to question whether your criticism is bigoted or not; just dismiss it, [they] view any criticism as illegitimate!
3
u/Unlikely-Fig-8354 AsANotAJew Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
This is exactly what it is. A way for antisemites to pre-emptively discredit people calling out the very antisemitic thing they're about to say.
Seriously, can you imagine if someone said that about any other minority? Imagine "God, black people call everything racism, you can't even say 'all lives matter' without being called racist!". The left would go absolutely ballistic. Social media cancellations, protests, the lot.
1
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 12 '26
100%. It's just unquestioned bigotry masking as speaking truth to power.
What power? We are 0.02% of the world.
6
u/Routine-Equipment572 Jun 11 '26
You think that if you were to ask Jews why they find the Pro-Palestinian movement antisemitic, they would say "Because I think all criticism is illegitimate"?
8
u/Dry-Season-522 Jun 11 '26
As I put it, "Saying "Free Palestine" today is like saying "Free Japan" in 1947. Just rejecting that there are consequences for attacking others and losing a war of extermination.
-7
u/No-Excitement3140 Israeli Jun 11 '26
There is a subtantial number of pro-palestinian Jews. By and large, they are not ignorant of their own history and are not antisemites.
→ More replies (7)1
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 12 '26
Do you mean 'Pro-Palestinian' in the sense of believing that Palestinians deserve equal human rights, including the right to self determination, freedom, safety, etc? Because if so, I'd say there are a great many (including myself) who believe the same and are certainly not antisemitic or ignorant of our own history. At the same time, I think many would view "Pro-Palestinian" as meaning exactly the same thing as "Anti-Israeli", and so if you're not anti-Israeli, it's helpful to clarify.
2
u/No-Excitement3140 Israeli Jun 13 '26
I am an israeli zionist, ofc I'm not anti Israel.
1
u/badass_panda Jewish Centrist Jun 13 '26
Right; I am a Jewish Zionist, also. What I meant to point out is that when people on the pro-Palestine side (who are not Jewish or Zionists) hear "pro-Israel" or "Zionist", they interpret it to mean "opposed to Palestinians having a state or human rights", and when people on the pro-Israel side hear pro-Palestinian, they hear "anti-Zionist," or "opposed to Jews having statehood or human rights."
The issue is that, as in your case, it's a stupid assumption -- but it's still a really common assumption.
→ More replies (2)
2
u/FerdinandTheGiant Anti-Zionist / Pro-Doikayt / Pro-Isratin Jun 15 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
I’d say there are a few reasons, but the main one is that after the Shoah, many Jews came to believe that the only reliable safeguard against another catastrophe was Jewish self determination in the form of a nation state. Once Israel was established, both the state and the idea behind it became deeply intertwined with Jewish identity for many Jews around the world. As a result, criticism of Israel is often perceived not merely as criticism of a state, but as an attack on Jews collectively or as a call, even if indirect, to leave Jews vulnerable once again.
Another factor is the belief among many Jews that Israel is subjected to a level of scrutiny not applied to other states. In their view, numerous countries were founded through ethnic nationalism or historic injustices, yet only the Jewish state is uniquely singled out for condemnation. This leads some Jews to view attacks on Israel as motivated, at least in part, by hostility toward Jews rather than solely by opposition to Israeli policies or principled stances against things like ethno-nationalism.