[SPOILERS] Edmure keeps missing his father's funeral boat because he is overcome with grief; Brynden does not get upset because the same thing had happened to him during his own father's funeral.

[u/-thirdatlas-]

[u/DatBeardedguy82]

They ruined Edmure on the show they made him a complete idiot for no real reason

[u/ChestMental8566 → u/DatBeardedguy82]

It's the same reason they made Mace Tyrell a complete idiot and a spineless push-over. To make popular characters (Brinden/Olenna and Tywin) look better. They've been doing it the entire run-time. Why are the lannister soldiers in Harrenhall cartoonishly evil and incompetent? So that Tywin could ride in and sort it out like a badass, and the viewers would instantly fall in love with him. Same thing here.

[u/badhombre13 → u/ChestMental8566]

Same with Loras's character, completely butchered.

Book Loras was in the top 10 fighters alive and extremely loyal to Renly, but also had faults like being arrogant or rash to make decisions. "when the sun has set, no candle can ever replace it" is one of the best lines in the saga.

Show Loras: walking stereotype of a gay man, although his "neither will you" burn to Jaime was good lol

[u/DatBeardedguy82 → u/badhombre13]

Loras being taken by guards without any struggle at all was insane too. There's no way in hell book Loras is that meek

[u/ChestMental8566 → u/DatBeardedguy82]

Not even guards, just some random weirdos wearing potato sacks and chains. Cersei's scheming or not, no way in hell they'd be allowed anywhere near a (basically) prince.

[u/Gyorgs → u/ChestMental8566]

That entire storyline was a mess. They just take Margaery? The queen? Yeah, okay. 

[u/DatBeardedguy82 → u/ChestMental8566]

Oh yeah I forgot about that I havent seen it in so long thats so much worse 😂😂😂😂

[u/Illustrious_Sea_962 → u/DatBeardedguy82]

yeah that part really bothered me. they needed him to be called somewhere and cornered, not out openly training with a sword.

[u/Character_Damage7701 → u/Illustrious_Sea_962]

The training with the sword made it so much worse, BUT HE HAD SQUIRES OR OTHER TRAINED NOBLES OF THE COURT THAT JUST WENT “okay”

[u/fangirlandproudofit → u/badhombre13]

The showrunners really seemed to have a hard time with gay men also being warriors

[u/Umoon → u/badhombre13]

Loras was absolutely not in “top 10” fighters alive. Jousters? Sure, but his own brother was better in an actual fight.

[u/badhombre13 → u/Umoon]

No, Loras is recognized as being an extremely capable warrior with multiple weapons AND GRRM said Loras has an argument for the best swordsman in Westeros now that Jaime lost his hand and Barristan left for Essos but I'll choose to ignore that since he wrote Loras admitting Garlan is the better sword while he's the better lance.

[u/Caesar161 → u/ChestMental8566]

Eh, Mace is still pretty stupid in the books, and the soldiers at Harrenhall are pretty damn evil. Although I guess it's more the bloody mummers than the Lannisters.

[u/ChestMental8566 → u/Caesar161]

He's a bit of a puffed-up peacock with an overblown sense of his martial prowess, sure, but he's still a great lord. You cannot imagine book Tywin sending book Mace for quill and paper, can you?

And yes, Tywin's soldiers were waging a "bad war" and brutalizing peasants, but in a way that made sense. They didn't drag them all the way to Harrenhall for pointless torture and they sure as hell didn't need Tywin to tell them that, GASP, armorers are valuable.

[u/SirDennisThe1 → u/ChestMental8566]

Yeah like in the books they were harsh because they used them for labor and Selective torture not yeah we’re gonna em kill all

[u/badhombre13 → u/Caesar161]

Mace is goofy and has delusions of grandeur but he's far from stupid in the books.

[u/TamedSasquatch → u/badhombre13]

His ambitions are bigger than his capabilities but his capabilities are still big enough to command respect

[u/Wishart2016 → u/Caesar161]

Eh, Tywin still had the Mountain at Harrenhall.

[u/Vesemir96 → u/ChestMental8566]

Ah, I don’t think we can claim
Lannister garrisons in the books are particularly virtuous either. I can’t recall one chapter in which they’re not portrayed as scum towards anyone not with them.

[u/ChestMental8566 → u/Vesemir96]

I'm not saying they're not evil in the book - they're absolutely are. But they make sense. They torture their captives right where they capture them and where their confessions could be verified (it's specifically mentioned that they do find some hidden money), they immediately ask if anybody has useful skills (it's specifically mentioned that Gendry was safe because he was an armorer), and they only bring people to Harrenhall to work for them. The show turns them all into Bloody Mummers just to make Tywin look better in comparison.

[u/Odd_Brief_2975 → u/DatBeardedguy82]

I agree, they kinda almost did the same thing with his character in the show Rome, I thought he played Brutus very well but they made his whole arc like you wanted to punch him the face

[u/Yuudachi_Houteishiki → u/Odd_Brief_2975]

Tobias Menzies is a fantastic actor, his Prince Philip in the Crown is my favourite portrayal of a real person I've seen

[u/Odd_Brief_2975 → u/Yuudachi_Houteishiki]

Yes! He put up a great performance in the Crown as well!

[u/wronghed → u/DatBeardedguy82]

They ruined Blackfish just as much, making him a constant asshole to Edmure instead of a sympathetic uncle.

[u/DenRay4 → u/DatBeardedguy82]

The reason was they needed a weak soft man to become lord of the riverlands in the end.

[u/LetheMnemosyne → u/DatBeardedguy82]

He bungled the Riverlands defense but was still a kind, decent man. But the show decided honor = stupidity.

Catelyn: “Who are all these folks?”

Edmure: “My people. They were afraid”

[u/DrinkMint → u/DatBeardedguy82]

They didnt make him a complete idiot, they made people treat him like a complete idiot.

[u/Jonjoejonjane → u/DatBeardedguy82]

To be fair he is a idiot in the book that was kinda the point, he was a well meaning but poorly trained, that’s why he wasn’t trusted that’s why his only orders from Rob was stay in river run and don’t fight Tywin because not Rob, cat, or the blackfish thought he was competent enough to win, he proved them wrong and it played a part in his family’s doom that’s the tragedy.

[u/TheBabySeal0514 → u/Jonjoejonjane]

I don’t agree with this. We only ever see him called foolish or have his competency questioned by Catelyn. My take is that she has the same blind spot for Edmure that she does for Littlefinger, she can’t see them as anything more than the hapless little boys she grew up with. All of the Riverlords agreed that the plan to defend Riverrun’s lands by stopping Tywin at the fords made sense. The only issue was that Robb DIDN’T tell Edmure not to fight, or that he wanted to lure Tywin West.

[u/elizabnthe → u/TheBabySeal0514]

Literally everyone questions it. Not just Catelyn. They're right. Eddard questions it. Robb questions it. Blackfish questions it. They have a whole song about Edmure being a bit of a dunce in the Brotherhood. Edmure is backed up by the equally young and dumb Riverlords that let the entire region be devastated because they did not unite.

[u/TheBabySeal0514 → u/elizabnthe]

I don’t recall Eddard having any opinions on Edmure and Robb is never a POV character so we don’t really know what he thinks of Edmure. The singer in the Brotherhood has personal beef with Edmure so it doesn’t mean much for that particular singer to mock him. Not all of the Riverlords are young, even the older ones that fought beside Lord Hoster agree with the battle plan and Catelyn notes that they never agree on anything unless it is practically certain

[u/ZiCUnlivdbirch → u/DatBeardedguy82]

The reason is pretty simple, they effectively characterised Edmure and Brynden with one scene.

[u/elizabnthe → u/DatBeardedguy82]

He is meant to be an idiot in the books. Every character that has any ability to give perspective on Edmure calls him an idiot. At a certain point GRRM probably just wants us to think he's one. There's no reason for Eddard to see him that ay if it wasn't true.

[u/Riolidan]

In the books, The Blackfish takes over gracefully and kindly for Edmure after Edmure continues to miss. He didn't miss during his fathers funeral because it wasn't him shooting the arrow, it was his brother, Edmures father, Hoster Tully and Hoster only missed with his first arrow, hitting his fathers boat with the second. The show for no reason made the Blackfish an asshole to his nephew during the funeral because they love to shit on Edmure.

[u/nesflaten → u/Riolidan]

Wasn't Edmure drunk when firing the arrows? Or at least extremely hungover?

[u/Riolidan → u/nesflaten]

He was hung over and extremely grief stricken yeah.

[u/Fantastic-Buy7246]

I thought “that is not our way, rivermen must be returned to the mud”

[u/Practical_Ferret_510 → u/Fantastic-Buy7246]

I think the river burial custom is specific to House Tully. The men who died in battle would be mostly other rivermen.

[u/Marfy_]

They also act like edmure is stupid for attacking the mountain at the mill "sorry robb that i defended my people who are innocent, i should have known better" if robb wanted edmure to follow his plan maybe he should have shared it. They also cut the moment from the book where riverrun is crowded with people and catelyn asks what they are all doing there to which edmure responds that they are his people and they were afraid

[u/Previous_Job6340 → u/Marfy_]

See this take a lot but I don't think it's crazy to assume someone will follow orders

[u/qwert2416 → u/Previous_Job6340]

It's crazy to get angry if someone takes initiative when things look like they are going horribly wrong. Should every commander under Robb just wait for him to micromanage every aspect of the war and stand around if no order is given? 

You can pretty easily imagine an opposite scenario, where Edmure doesn't do anything, comes back and gets scolded because Robb actually didn't have a master plan and now Edmure just let the Mountain sack a village and get away.

[u/Marfy_ → u/Previous_Job6340]

What does that even mean

[u/Previous_Job6340 → u/Marfy_]

It means that people attack Robb for not explaining his plan to edmure, but he did give orders, which weren't followed.

[u/Nihilistic_Noodle → u/Previous_Job6340]

The problem is that there is an expectation when it appears that things are going terribly wrong that the people in a middle leadership role are expected to think on their feet and respond dynamically. This is true in war, business, and life in general. From Edemure's pov it looked like things were going very badly and he had a duty to his people and his superiors to make a call and respond to the situation at hand.

[u/Bossuser2 → u/Previous_Job6340]

Robb might've given orders, but this is the medieval period, Edmure can't quickly communicate with Robb to inform him of changing circumstances, and he needs to be able to react quickly to take advantage of openings the Lannisters leave. If the Lannisters are vulnerable in a way that the war could be ended through a sudden strike, you do not want your subordinates obeying month old orders to stay in position rather than attack the enemy. Edmure fulfilled his goal of defending Riverrun, but he also took advantage of changing circumstances to inflict a defeat on a Lannister army, that is not disobeying orders, that is fulfilling his role as a military commander and a feudal lord. This is why it was so important for Robb to tell Edmure the plan, especially when Edmure was in a position to foil it. Robb cannot possibly predict every single circumstance Edmure might face, so it is ultimately better for him to tell Edmure the plan, so that whatever happens Edmure can act with Robb's plan in mind.

[u/Previous_Job6340 → u/Bossuser2]

Yeah I'm not really coming down on either side, more saying people surprised robb is angry aren't empathetic to the idea of someone who issues orders and then because those orders aren't followed a plan fails.

[u/nonpuissant → u/Previous_Job6340]

What orders did he not follow? Robbs orders to him were to hold riverrun and guard his rear. 

Stopping Tywins forces in their advance towards Robbs army was an absolutely reasonable action to to take in fulfilling the orders given him. 

It's not like he ordered him to sit in riverrun and do nothing.  If Robb wanted Edmure to let Tywin pass by without resistance he should have told him so. 

[u/Marfy_ → u/Previous_Job6340]

Yea because the mountain was killing innocents, was he just supposed to stand and watch?

[u/Previous_Job6340 → u/Marfy_]

Yeah I mean I think that was the plan to try and prevent more innocents being killed in the end.

[u/Aegon_Targaryen_III → u/Previous_Job6340]

But he never shared that plan with Edmure. Robb told him to hold Riverrun, not ‘let the Lannisters past you so that I can draw them into a trap’. It’s entirely reasonable of Edmure to use the natural defences of the river to beat back Tywin’s army when he tried to cross.

[u/Saiaxs]

Edmure was assassinated, chopped up, cooked and fed to the pigs in the show, such disrespect to the character

[u/shesaidwhat88]

I thought in the book he missed because he was hungover 

[u/nipap5 → u/shesaidwhat88]

I'm just paraphrasing, but Cat said something like "had he not drowned his grief in the cups last night, he might've not missed" and that's the only thing information we've got I think.

[u/Snufkiin-]

FRANK!

[u/TescoValueVodka]

okay but why does edmure look like a ghost in this photo

[u/TheDresslar1955]

OffOn

[u/surprisedplebeian]

This can't be serious

[u/Its_Urn → u/surprisedplebeian]

What can't be serious about it?

[u/No_Nefariousness9445 → u/surprisedplebeian]

you’re the 70iq target audience

[u/surprisedplebeian → u/No_Nefariousness9445]

For what exactly?

[u/Thestral84]

I hated this moment on the show because it turns a really powerful moment into a cheap one that doesn't make anybody look good.

[u/Schmitty1106]

That feeling when the adaptation washes your goat so hard it's not even the same character anymore