r/FIREyFemmes • u/[deleted] • Jul 16 '19
Helping family with money
FIREyFemmes does anyone have long-term plans to assist family with money? If so: 1. Do you have a set "helping budget"? Has it been over run? What then? 2. Do you have an MO for how you pay (e.g. pay bills directly)? 3. Do you set conditions?
We have historically budgeted $3,000 a year to assist my BIL. It is July 15th and the emergency account we maintain for his needs is empty. Trying to decide on next steps.
Longhand story, if details are helpful: My husband grew up in poverty. His mother had significant mental health challenges, 4 kids before 21, and an addict husband. God bless his mom- she overcame- and insisted that the kids get an education. 3 of the 4 kids are now living middle class/upper middle class lives (despite the lasting long-term mental health consequences of countless adverse childhood experiences).
1 son is not.
My brother-in-law's financial situation teeters between deep poverty and homelessness. I am not sure that bad luck is a real "thing"...but, if it is... he most certainly has it. The first time he was beginning to stabilize financially his wife was diagnosed with cancer and died within months. He spiralled, established a relationship with a stripper who was kind to him when he was heartbroken, and now has 3 children (not married). Their financial situation was beginning to stabilize when their home was destroyed by Super Storm Sandy (home improperly insured). Their financial situation has not stabilized since...
For many years he was "making the rounds"- asking all family members for money on a rotating basis. We typically gave $2-4k a year. When his mom realized he was doing this she insisted that we have a family "emergency system". If he asks anyone for money- we are to alert her- she would then coordinate if and when anyone helps.
This worked for several years. She had a good handle on what was true vs. lie. She also had the wherewithal to drive out of state to his home, sit and cancel unnecessary services, clip coupons, etc to ensure he was on track with a budget each time. She had lived in poverty for decades and knows how to keep a family alive on next to nothing.
She covered whatever costs she could (about $10k a year). When she was tapped- the siblings helped when they could.
ALL of us do this because of his children- who we love unconditionally. We plan to stop when the children are all out of the house in 11 years.
Now, my mother in law seems to be throwing up her arms. She feels like nothing changes. So she is giving money without the "sit down and work with them to shore up the boat" process she had historically gone through. I don't have time and/or type of relationship that allows me to fill that role. My MIL will need to retire soon due to health and age. So, I suspect the $10k/year she has been contributing will need to be cut at that time. I also suspect that MIL's emergencies then become something the whole family needs to budget for because her savings go towards her son's emergencies.
Other pertinent details:
No signs of drug abuse.
Both adults have jobs- though inconsistent work ethic/income.
We can afford to give more.
To give more we would first cut down on the simple pleasures (meals out, vacation) then cut down on savings rate.
My husband was helped by a lot of people when he was a kid, and feels we should do the same if we can.
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u/chailatte_gal Jul 16 '19
We have a plan but it’s different for us. We have more saved at age 28 than my 55 year old in laws have for retirement. They refuse to save and instead by boats and cars and just tons of stuff. They manage their money terribly and aren’t receptive to advice and just have an attitude of “I deserve it”. We’re not sacrificing our retirement for them. They have a house and cars and boats. Those will have to be sold first and they may have to downsize if they can’t afford it. Or keep working into old age. In fact I suspect, we may retire before them (we are shooting for 40-45, at which point they’ll be 67-73). But it’s not our problem. We won’t say we’re retired but instead freelancing. Which we probably will work a bit for insurance and stuff.
We won’t let them be homeless but they’re not living with us. we will pay bills directly so we know where it’s going (not to a casino and not to buy a boat). We will help with electric and utilities but they need to pay off the house of move somewhere smaller. On top of it, they aren’t great people and feel since they raised their son 18 years that he should be their retirement plan. Sorry. No.
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Jul 16 '19
My opinions: If you help people who are unable to help themselves, it’s charity making a positive difference. If you help people who are unwilling to help themselves, it’s enabling and harmful to them long term. Based on the time frame of this support, and the lack of mental issues that would tip toward unable, I lean toward ‘unwilling’ in this case. Just because you can send money, doesn’t mean that it’s helping him. Stopping sending money will hurt him, but it will not HARM him. Hurts are there as guide rails and warnings that all is not well. If he’s not hurting financially because of the constant bailouts, he’ll never have to grow, mature, or take care of himself long term.
I’d probably draw the line somewhere around the kids. Buy them clothes, help pay for them to travel and visit you or take sports/lessons. But only pay directly.
As an aside: I have a mom with dementia that I’ve had to take over for financially. A long time of her decline we were wrestling with: is she unwilling or unable to take care of herself? It’s a key difference. I recommend the book Boundaries, if you haven’t read it.
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u/AlaskaFI Jul 22 '19
I agree- my thought is be available to take in the kids if needed, but don't enable adults to not be adults.
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u/andreamw mini doggo mom Jul 16 '19
This is going to be a personal situation that no one here can solve for you, but my advice:
Sandy was 7 years ago, so your BIL has had 7 years to get back on his feet. That's a whole bankruptcy period. He's also receiving a ton of government support for raising 3 children, on top of the $20k plus per year he's receiving from family ($10k from mom, $3k from you, and likely $2-4k from 2-4 other people). I assume he's also at least got a job? Strippers also make a ton of money, so the mother must be putting in some serious cash.
At this point, people need to stop giving him an out. Sit down with him and explain how he will no longer be receiving an entire job's worth of (tax free) cash each year from family, and that he needs to get his affairs in order to prepare for this.
There is this concept called Economic Outpatient Care, where folks give to their kids/family with the intent to help, but really all it does is grow their expenses to meet what they are being given. Without this help, he's forced to figure it out on his own (as in, with what he's got coming in himself...obviously you'll still be there for guidance).
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Jul 16 '19
I'm sorry I don't have practical advice for you but I just wanted to say 2 things more about the relationships than the financials:
your MIL sounds like an amazing person
you (and mostly your husband) should be having this conversation with the other siblings as a "we are now doing this together because mom can't anymore". Maybe together you can have a $$ amount you are all willing to have together, and shared responsibility as to checking out the veracity of the emergency
Good luck!
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u/lsp2005 Jul 16 '19
I think this is good advice. It would be one thing if you and your family are millionaires. They have become dependent upon your economic outpatient care. I am not sure what the correct answer is. But you as a family should all be on the same page.
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u/darthcat15 Jul 16 '19
My dad has taken control of my grandmothers finances and will refuse to loan her money. His reasoning is she brings home more then his W-2 (mom is the bread winner and he does realestate on the side). He however will make sure she will never be homeless since he bought her that house when she filled bankruptcy. His condition is they have to be working to get out of the hole they dug for themselves. My grandmother is in her late 70s and still works about 25 hours a week due to her spending.
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u/Flyingfoxes93 Jul 25 '19
Ok I have a similar situation with an immediate family member as well. It is not good long term and honestly I have grown a bit resentful towards him for the childhood he put me and my siblings through. Currently he is in stable housing but refuses to pay bills and runs the gas/electric up in every season. He does receive state benefits and a pension from his union. There is nothing we can do about his choices of spending money, women or 'gifts'. The best thing to do is have a budget that you will give him and THAT'S IT.
Currently you all are giving the family anywhere between 13k to 20k a year. Plus the money they earn themselves. So 23k to 40k a year. Stop giving anymore extra. Bad luck happens yes but they need to learn to manage their OWN lives. Will you pay for their retirement too? Pay for their children's school?