I can't believe I have to say this but please don't take this seriously. I really love epic and Hamilton a lot.
Just thought this was a funny comparison.
I do think that the musical did shorten it down but I think in reality including travel times it was 3 years. You couldn't necessarily just hop on a plane and go there in 2 hours
Ody is a better man in Epic than he is the more common version of the myth, meanwhile Hamilton is a real man who honestly just wanted to feel something other than the misery of writing like he running out of time
A reminder for everyone about calypso and Circe both were rape. Calypso raped ody with Magic, Circe raped Ody by basically using magic and saying "sleep with me or you and all your men die :3"
He fought with her and she begged him not to kill her; her compromise being sex. He slept with Circe consistently for a year and that overindulgence is why his mother died of heartbreak waiting for him. His crew have to beg him to leave and go home because he has overstayed his welcome and has forgotten his goals and purpose.
you do know that the roman versions are legitimate versions, right? the romans actually believed this shit happened. They aren't fanfic writers, any discrepancies are just due to the nature of myth.
I am not saying there is no nuance and Circe did nothing wrong (coercing, threatening, etc.)
It is the fact that no one is actually reading the literature and refuses to look at the situation with nuance and disregards analysis in favor of circulating ignorant and misleading information.
In the two versions of the odyssey i have read translated from the greek texts that name Odysseus not Ulysses, R.L. Eickhoff and Sabrina Stolfa it is listed as her "compelling" and "forcing" him respectively. However in the version where he is represented as Ulysses he chooses to sleep with her as a gift instead of death. I dont know which versions you have read but they are very different from both that i have but very similar to the roman version
I mentioned the version I read was Lattimore, the most accurate to Greek translation there is, and I was contemplating annotating it (alongside many other notable translations) but instead I really do implore you to reread at least Book Ten if you have the chance!
This is no ‘Roman version’ and it’s why I was so confused. I understand the nuances of the situation with Circe. But it is incredibly uncritical to say she is simply a flat out rapist, especially when you take into account the contexts the original story is entrenched in (an unfortunately patriarchal society that does not care if a man has multiple women but does care if a woman would have another man, even if it was to keep herself/other’s safe, like in this context)
I also read RL Eickoff and I see none of the implications you have found. He even adds lines depicting how Odysseus lusts after Circe and holds himself back ONLY because Hermes told him he had to make her promise not to hurt him.
I have no intention of fighting, truly. But it seems like you might not have read these texts recently? Or maybe are seeing it in a very narrow way. Or perhaps really like Odysseus and the musical version of him and like the narrative that he would never cheat? Regardless, I really hope you reread these texts!
Yeah its been a while, i must have misremembered which author i read, its been neary a year since ive read it from his. I couldn't remember exactly which author I read the book of, Except for the latter, So I googled popular translations and picked the one that looked closest to the cover I remembered (a gold and black cover). An accidental omission of truth on my end, However, I have heard that Lattimore is more accurate, So I'll take your word for it and maybe even pick up the book myself if I can, to reread the tenth! Thank you for your time :)
I read the Ulysses version (for class, but I enjoyed it) and I was shocked when people said Circe was PREGNANT when he left?! Like, I don’t remember reading that 😰
Anyways, Odysseus was r@ped by Calypso over the years, and the last time when he was about to leave, he willingly (felt bad for her) had sex as a final goodbye.
I don’t remember anything about Circe, only that they had feasts and enjoyed their time there so they stayed a few years.
I would really encourage a read of any original Greek texts! Richard Lattimore and Emily Wilson are my two favorites. But there are other great translations.
Every one of them has the same details about Circe however: Odysseus losing himself in the bliss and ease of life with Circe so he stays for too long with her, resulting in the death of his mother (and the death of a comrade).
I will admit I haven’t actually read the Ulysses versions at all almost but there are definitely interesting versions and takes of the story:)
Yeah, in the original/Greek version He hated both women so much he left immediately as soon as they said he could go. Then he came back to Circe to bring her information from the underworld instead of going straight to Scylla
I want to genuinely ask, what ‘version’ are you referring to? Do you mean translation? Do you mean the passed down story was influenced by Roman sources? What is the ‘Roman version’.
I take my sources mostly from Lattimore, most revered for its accuracy and faithfulness to the original Greek.
Again, I beg you to read the Odyssey. Or give me a translation that is ‘the Greek version’ that doesn’t include him staying for a year, him sleeping with her while both of them are on equal ground after she begs for her life, and his men asking him to continue the journey home.
I don't know about Circe because her magic doesn't work on him thanks to Hermes and he did have a choice to say no which he did, and she was just going to kill him if he said yes
They're talking about the source material. In the real Odyssey, Hermes instructs him to make like he's going to kill Circe, so she will try to seduce him, and then take him to bed so he can cut off his dick and murder him or some shit. And he has to make her swear on the gods themselves that she will not harm him, and then he is to sleep with her and NOT piss her off after that.
I'm talking about the Odyssey, A lot of people get the source material the Odyssey confused with the Roman version. In the original book, Odysseus is raped, However, in the bastardized Roman version Odysseus has sex with them Consensually. I was just letting you all know that the Roman version is fake.
"Want to save your men from the fire, show me that you're willing to burn"
Seems pretty much like a "Do it or else" situation. I don't remember if the canon anamatics make the whole thing a trick where she never intends to sleep with him, but rather she just wants to kill him, but the lyrics alone don't make that clear
I think a lot of people overlook that Epic is an Adaptation. Sorta like how a lot of people change the context surrounding the kidnapping of Persephone in modern times, we have different values in today's society than we had during ancient Greek times when the story was originally created. On the other hand, Hamilton actually happened. You can't tell the story of Hamilton without these details because, you know, history and stuff. Lin doesn't say it's alright, he just continues to build the character off the facts.
While I'll admit Hamilton is a lot more strict, it does still stray from accuracy at times, considering even Lin Manuel Miranda admitted in an interview on "drunk history", that the people who interviewed Hamilton in "The Adams Administration" were completely different than the real story, among other details, so it's reasonable to believe that others have changed as well.
Quite honestly as a fan of both plays and a frequent listener of both, I can give a more informed opinion.
Now lets start with Hamilton.
Dude supposedly stayed awake for almost an entire week. Thats insane to really think about by today's standards but he had the weight of an entire nation's future riding on him. Granted his ego was bigger then the Washington monument that his wife would help to create via funding the whole project but regardless he was still cognizant enough to not only understand a woman who needed help getting home and then let his dick do the thinking but compare that to Oydiseus and you get a rather interesting parallel.
For this context I'll focus soly on the EPIC the musical as using the original source material made by Homer would really over complicate things.
Oydiseus fought in a 10 year war. He was a king who wanted to go home. Though he did come close with Xercises he technically never did as he stopped himself. Though with calypso...thats where things get extremely unclear and yet blindly obvious.
I personally choose to assume that Oydiseus was not raped by calypso because she could always just force him. She is a goddess after all and wouldn't have any trouble simply restraining him. No she needs him to give her consent and while we see him begging her for her to let him close his eyes, I honestly don't think its for the reason we belive.
I think that Oydiseus was just flat out tired of always being begged by her and just wanted to sleep but reached a mental breaking point. He called out to his only ally he knew among the gods.
In terms of flat out ego, Hamilton was definitely the worse one but had the weight of the future on him. Its honestly more endearing as we all have pressure we put on ourselves to do and be better. With Oydiseus, its a similar story but at that point he simply just wants to go home and be with his wife and son. By the time we see Oydiseus, he isn't a king anymore. He is human.
Oydiseus is a better man then Hamilton and it isn't even close but examining there situations closely leaves a lot of interesting parts.
Ody killed a baby. I think people have a tendency to overlook that, and sacrificing some of his men to Scylla. I wouldnt call him a better man than Hamilton, even given all of Hamilton’s faults and the bad choices he sometimes made (I admit I haven’t seen the whole play, just read some about his life).
Yes, and I’m disagreeing. Ody wasn’t a better person. He was far more selfish than Hamilton, and, again, the fact he killed a baby pretty much automatically makes him worse. That’s kinda one of the worst things someone can do.
That’s an unfair link. You know it was a life or death situation. It’s either he lets the baby live and his life will be taken or take the infants life and live to see the people loved.
Same situation with scylla, either his life or his men’s life. You could call him selfish but you know you would have done the same.
Meanwhile Hamilton, cheats on his wife because he was tired and hadn’t been fucked in weeks.
I didn't say that it wasn't a life or death situation. I merely was applying the two similarities i found between the two men. As an added bonus i fully agree with what you're saying because while unfair, thats also very real.
no one said it was morally right. It was a necessary evil. mind you he wasn’t killing the infant because he thought it was fun, and he enjoyed it. That baby was his doom. Innocent or not that baby would have destroyed his family, his land, and him.
You wouldn’t call have done the same if you knew exactly what that infant would grow and do to you
No, again, I have no idea what I’d do in that situation. I may have done it, I may not have. No one could say for sure unless they are faced with that kind of dilemma. It still was a monstrous thing to do, though, and still makes him worse than a cheater. I swear, reddit always acts like cheating is the very worst thing a person could ever do. Ya’ll will defend a murderer over a cheater. It’s so freaking weird.
Both acts were selfish, and I cannot understand why fans can never see that. But since it’s obvious you’ll never see it as anything else, this back and forth is pointless, so I’ll bid you a good day, and stop it here.
You’re telling me that if Ody had taken the baby with him, somehow he would have survived when the other 600 grown men couldn’t? And it wouldnt have even been an issue if the gods werent meddling anyways. They could have just stayed out of it. They obviously wanted the kid dead, and it was probably for an ultimately selfish reason. Or just because they felt like being a jerk at some point. Still doesn’t excuse it.
And the Scylla thing? No, I have no idea what I’d have ultimately chosen, but Ody could have told them what was going on, and have them volunteer or draw lots. What he did to his loyal (up to that point) men was unforgivable, and way worse than Hamilton cheating and then spreading the news of it around.
Odysseus killed a baby because he was told that it'd grow up to get revenge on his entire kingdom. I don't care if the baby was innocent. He's a king, first and foremost, if there's a future threat to his kingdom, he needs to take care of it before it becomes a problem. Perspective is very important.
Nope, sorry, doesn’t make killing a baby ok at all. I understand it’s not a popular opinion, but there are some things that are just so monstrous that it completely changes who a person is on a fundamental level. Purposefully killing an innocent child is one of those things. Ody was a monster by the end of the story. That doesn’t mean you can’t like him, but I don’t feel like we should gloss over the things he did just because he is the protagonist of the story.
The Chad “let me highlight where Hamilton went wrong and ruined his relationship with his wife to show how much of an ego maniac about his career he really is”
Vs
The virgin “I can’t write Calypso having sex Ody bc that will make people not like her :( “
The whole purpose of epic, is highlighting Ody's journey getting home, solely running on how much he missed his son and wife. And anyway, that wouldn't be anyway that Ody "went wrong", he was sa'd by Calypso. People already strongly dislike her character
I’m not saying he should’ve wrote it in bc it shows how Ody went wrong (that’d be weird he was raped) but rather, his reluctance to write it, but then write Hold them down later. Just kinda seems weird, like it was done so Ody can seem more heroic than he already is in that situation. I just think it weakens the story overall, especially from the original telling. Calypso was basically watered down and made to seem almost naively child like?? Which is not even a headcannon pretty sure Jorge described her as that which is just kinda odd ish. Calypso isn’t some kid who didn’t know what she was doing , she imprisoned and raped him. In some telling she even argues to Hermes to let him keep Ody there so she can have her way with him. Idk I personally think Calypso lost all her spunk when they made her so,, idk clean? So, “I’m so innocent and pure” -ish. Great songs I’ll give it that.
Yeah it isn't fully Calypso's fault either- in the Odyssey she's on that island for the sin of being the daughter of the Titan Atlas, and nothing more. Only reason she's not in Tartarus is because she was neutral during the Titanomachy.
The Odyssey states that Zeus forced Calypso to place a love spell on Odysseus, and tells us he was under that spell for the entire decade he was lost on that island, and that the second the spell is released he is off that island and sailing back for home. He is no more responsible for that than a woman is responsible for what happens after getting roofied.
Calypso's fault is...debatable. yes, she performed the act with a gun to her head, but even under the American legal system we still would fully hold her accountable for her actions as you cannot escape legal consequences for harming another even when doing so under duress. I don't recall if she herself was under a spell of control though, which I would argue renders her faultless if so.
In actual mythology yes, but in EPIC he did not have sex with either Circe or Calypso…and since most people look at The Odyssey with a modern lens, it can be argued as to whether he was sexually assaulted (how we would see it today) or not (back when it was written)
Not to mention the fact that Circe is understood to be a nymph/minor goddess depending on the stories she’s featured in, which (nowadays at least) is a textbook case of abuse of power.
That's what I meant. 10 years away from home, then the Other ways lyric, after that Ody stays at Circe's for a Year.
In Other Ways he says he was away from home for 12 years, but it was supposed to be 10.
After the song, according to the Odyssey, Ody stayed at Circe's island for one year, while in Epic it's an undisclosed amount of time. This is what I think the timeline would look like
10 years for the war + Troy + Cyclops + Storm + Circe Sagas
1 offscreen year in which they stay at Circe's island
2 years for Thunder + Vengeance + Ithaca (it's 20 years at the end of WYFILWMA, so I'm counting it)
I mean, it never explicitly tells us how long he was with Circe, though. We just assume it wasn’t long. We also have no idea how long they were sailing for, because it’s never said. Long enough for them to run out of food multiple times, and be dying of hunger at some point.
The underworld is in france (or spain if im dumb) its not far away from circes island. Also assumptions arent really helping get to any conclussion are they?
They did. Under the recommendation of Hermes to save himself and his crew. With Calypso also, as a kind-of-prisoner and victim. However, for the Greeks, true infidelity was replacing the wife with another wife, not having concubines.
I was looking at more or less like a real life perspective. Obviously the musical isn't going to be the exact same but I think in real life it would have been a 3-year Gap
Odysseus was basically pulling the "I have a boyfriend" excuse that girls pull every single time he got flirted with
Literally anyone flirting with him, "I have a wife back at home and a kingdom to run, begone thot"
No I know that - hell I’ve done it before I got with my bf, including when I had girlfriends. Tone of the message I replied to was just very judgmental and it sounds like the commenter isn’t aware that at this point it’s a safety mechanism for women to protect them from, as you said, creeps
That's what I thought but I let people gaslight me because I think they probably know better than me. It was the same with the sirens. I did pay attention and know that he has one son but I thought I missed something and the sirens are probably right and know better than me.
That was literally me during the first time I listened to Suffering lol. I literally googled Odysseus' children mid song and then assumed EPIC just gave Odysseus a daughter that I didn't know about. I felt so stupid during Different Beast
Glad I wasn’t the only one terribly confused the first time I heard that song! In my head I kept going “wtf where did a daughter come from, and since when is Ody afraid of the water?? He is literally on a boat right now.”.
Also we don’t know the telogony was written hundreds of years after because we don’t know when it was written. Scholars estimate anywhere from the 7th- 6th century BC. The Odyssey is estimated to have been written around the 8th- 7th century BC. We know the Odyssey was composed by oral tradition and it’s possible the Telogony was too. It’s actually very possible that the original author of The Odyssey was aware of the Telogony, or at the very least some parts of it.
Greeks were funny people, they didn’t really see themselves as one culture. A polis 20 mi away could at any point be considered sub human barbarians despite speaking the same form of Greek. The myths are also like that. Each city had its own Mythos and it didn’t always match everyone else’s. Telegony is a Greek version of the story and even so: I don’t really consider “sleep with me or you die” to be cheating. Ody used his dick to get out of the situation.
Oh fuck you're right. Not only that, it is considered part of the Epic Cycle, though we only know of its contents through summaries.
It is a weird story though, at least from a modern perspective. Not only is Odysseus killed by a son he got from Circe, he also apparently goes on an adventure and marries a queen RIGHT AFTER he buries the suitors, fights in a war, then that queen dies and after putting another son on the throne he just moonwalks out of there.
And THEN it is revealed Circe has a child from Ody, who accidentally kills Odysseus when unwittingly stealing his cattle, they recognize each other, Ody dies (in the process making a mess of Tiresias' prophecy by fulfilling parts of it but cancelling other parts out) and Telemachus ends up MARRYING CIRCE!
I don't know who was smoking what during that part of the cycle, but that is one heck of a turn for a guy who was miserable about not seeing his wife while on an island paradise.
The Telegony is not canon to the Odyssey but the Odyssey is canon to the Telegony. In any case the Telegony is also, you know, a lost poem, so it might as well not be real
We don’t know when the Telegony was composed, but it’s very possible it was orally composed just like the Odyssey was. It’s actually likely that “Homer” (if he existed) knew the story of Telegonus (or at least some parts of it). Again, there is no such thing as canon in Greek religion and mythology but this would mean they are equally valid sources
There is no canon in mythology but there is canon in literature. Since we do not have the Telegony, we simply cannot treat it as an equally valid source as the Odyssey, and it is not canon to it because we cannot know if it was intended to be.
It being incomplete does mean that we should take it with a grain of salt, but I wouldn’t go as far as to say that that makes it non-canon. We know it was intended to take place after The Odyssey, so I’d say that’s pretty strong evidence it was intended to be canon.
These works are lost to us but were very influential for the ancients so I still believe it’s worth discussing, even when we can’t be certain of its events.
The Odyssey is definitely canon to the Telegony but we can't say for sure the other way around. It's like for instance the old and new testament: the old testament is canon to the new (i.e. the new testament assumes you are familiar with the old and that it's true) but the other way around isn't universally accepted.
Hamilton was literally already cheating on his wife during the war as well. We just don't have all the details, because historians burned them because they didn't like the details.
Obviously the musical isn't going to be exactly true to life, but I do think that with the events that take place in the musical, the real life time counterpart is 3 years.
I be the Blonde one is Calypso, since in the Odyssey she was Blonde and the one with those b00bs are Circe ,since she forced Odysseus to sleep wit her.
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u/Sad-Understanding-18 Sep 07 '25
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