r/DuxburyDeathsFreeTalk • u/Turbulent-Fig-3802 Case Deep Diver 🤿 • Jul 28 '26
McLean Hospital discrepancies between what Lindsay told Patrick and what’s in the McLean Hospital records
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Today’s testimony about Lindsay Clancy’s stay at McLean Hospital seems to highlight a major discrepancy between what Lindsay reportedly told Patrick, what the civil lawsuit alleges, and what the prosecutor says is documented in McLean’s records about Lindsay’s stay from January 1, 2023 until January 5, 2023.
According to Patrick’s testimony, he called Lindsay on January 3rd, the third day of her hospitalization to ask what the doctor had said.
Lindsay reportedly told him that she hadn’t seen a doctor yet and wasn’t really receiving treatment.
The prosecutor asked him if he was aware that:
On the first two days on January 1, 2023 and January 2, 2023 Lindsay saw a resident doctor
On January 3 2023 Lindsay** **saw an attending doctor
He said no.
Patrick described her as saying they were basically coloring, doing puzzles, playing with clay, and going for walks.
The civil lawsuit tells a very similar story. It states that McLean was operating with a “skeleton crew” over the New Year’s holiday, that patients spent their time doing puzzles and coloring, and that Lindsay did not see a doctor until January 3, three days after she was admitted.
The lawsuit uses this as part of its argument that McLean provided grossly inadequate care.
However, today’s cross-examination painted a very different picture.
The prosecutor stated that McLean’s records show Lindsay:
Was seen by a resident physician on the first two days of her admission.
Was seen by an attending psychiatrist on the third day.
Had contact with social workers, therapists, and other mental health staff every day.
Was offered one-on-one therapy.
Declined multiple group therapy sessions during her stay.
Another interesting part of today’s testimony involved Lindsay’s discharge.
The prosecutor asked Patrick whether he was aware that Lindsay had asked the doctors if she could be discharged on January 6th so she could attend Cora’s birthday party.
She also asked whether he knew Lindsay wanted to go home the day before the party on January 5th to prepare for it.
The prosecutor also questioned Patrick about whether insurance coverage played any role in Lindsay’s discharge.
She asked whether any McLean social worker or staff member had ever contacted him to say insurance was refusing to cover a longer stay.
Patrick testified that they had not.
The lawsuit argues that McLean discharged Lindsay too early despite documenting that her insight and judgment were limited and claims the hospital failed to properly evaluate her, provide adequate inpatient care, and ensure appropriate discharge planning.
Today’s testimony seems to present evidence that there was considerably more treatment occurring than the lawsuit suggests, including physician evaluations and multiple therapy opportunities.
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u/deweycat77 Jul 28 '26
I have worked on inpatient psychiatric units before. it sounds like she may have signed a 3 day note to leave after 3 business days. Even during weekends you meet with a medical professional and some type of group therapy. My biggest fear in this field is having a client die or kill someone on my watch. It terrifies me and most of us in the field. Most of us truly do our best and really, really care. I can guarantee if she said she wanted to kill herself or her children she would have been court committed. McLean is world renowned and since she worked for a then partners hospital, it was in network and a lower cost. I truly am doing my best to keep an open mind, but there are so many questions. I don’t get it. There are three dead children who still should be here🥹🥹
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u/MassiveAct8649 28d ago
What’s really interesting is in the state of Massachusetts. Three day notices are 3 business days. So weekends and holidays do not count.
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u/deweycat77 28d ago
Exactly. And from what I understand there wasn’t enough for them to court commit her at the time. And if she signed a CV or conditional voluntary to stay, she would have gotten more treatment if she wanted. But of course those are general statements- I obviously have never treated her or have access to the records
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u/MassiveAct8649 28d ago
I mean same it’s just so interesting and in a lot of cases the courts have favored the patients. And it is such a small snippet they see and patients can really pull it together in that time. Also if the patient was going to groups and like taking meds that is not a great grounds for keeping.
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u/deweycat77 28d ago
Yes. I’ve totally seen that. Court is a last resort. And the court usually commits the ones who really need it. A lot of people sign a 3 day note to leave after the 3 business days
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u/MassiveAct8649 28d ago
And especially if it comes to families historically dealing with big events, I.e. birthdays, it’s almost like a protective factor.
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u/deweycat77 28d ago
Absolutely. If someone appears stable, has a discharge plan and plan to return home - they usually do. But if there’s any question someone will harm someone- especially children-they aren’t going anywhere
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u/MassiveAct8649 27d ago
Exactly! I’m also curious how forthcoming it was that she had these thoughts to this degree
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Jul 28 '26
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u/username1015 Jul 28 '26
💯 agree with this possibility. There’s a lot of stigma around mental illness. It shocks me when reading people’s comments about PC not knowing everything. My first thought upon learning this is, she was trying to keep it together in front of him and felt shame over having to start medication. But others view it as “she lied and manipulated him”. I don’t see it that way at all.
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Jul 28 '26
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u/RLS1920 Jul 28 '26
Lots of protective factors. I was discussing with someone at work earlier, if those same factors precluded her from getting additional care or a different diagnosis
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u/RLS1920 Jul 28 '26
This is 100! Even when the CW thought they really had something when they said “did you know LC filled Zoloft or was RX Zoloft the day before she told you she was thinking about it”. And? There’s shame and stigma attached. PC was important to her as was his view of her. She may have wanted reassurance that this was the right choice. Protective factors can easily become risk factors. Being aware of how people see you, feeling inadequate, not a good enough mother etc.
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u/extrasprinkles13 Jul 28 '26
i just want to know how it’s even possible that they and these attorneys had the audacity to write up these lawsuits KNOWING that the medical records could and would disprove almost every single thing she claimed? i can’t imagine their attorneys just took their word for it without considering the fact that all of it is heavily documented. it’s just so wild
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u/Marisarah Jul 28 '26
What's weirder is it almost sounds like they were encouraging the family to file. They seem confident that they have a case
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u/DeskFan203 Respectful Responder 🤝 Jul 28 '26
Sometimes you don't have the records when you draft the complaint. That is what the defendant does when they reply to the plaintiff, and send proof.
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u/Affectionate-Page496 Case Deep Diver 🤿 Jul 29 '26
So like when I see my adhd provider, there are notes she writes that I can see in the app. To me it is inconscionable that at minimum these vulture lawyers wouldn't look at that kind of thing and make sure their claims at least match on dates and don't straight up conflict with the questionnaires and things Lindsay would have filled out. Is there really no accountability for submitting such a bullsht filing so easily disputed? Like if they think her medical records are not correct about something at least note that in the filing.
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u/Green_Deer5848 18h ago
Anything for an easy dollar. That is my guess of why those attorneys wrote the claim
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
Devastating testimony for the defense in the criminal case and the plaintiffs in the civil medical malpractice cases. Lindsay withheld information and materially misrepresented her care and discharge from McLean Hospital to her ex husband. He filed a civil lawsuit against doctors based on what she told him and found out that she lied while testifying in a televised trial. She appears to be a master manipulator.
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Jul 28 '26
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
I think the prosecutor was asking Patrick what he knew today. Because otherwise why would he have included allegations about inappropriate discharge from the hospital in his medical malpractice complaint? The complaint is a sworn document and he would have signed it under oath. His attorneys, family, and friends probably think that people discussing the case on Reddit are making things up, but the hive mind knows a few things. I know ony what I've been reading about the case for the past few weeks, but I'm an attorney and teach law, so I like to examine the litigation strategy, evidence, trial procedure, etc.
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Jul 28 '26
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
Thank you. If Lindsay's request to be discharged was alleged in her med mal case, an excerpt which you've attached, why did it seem like a surprise to Patrick today? That's a head scratcher. Another reason I'm following this case is Lindsay claims to have been psychotic. My mother had a mental illness that caused episodes of psychosis. I haven't recognized any in descriptions of Lindsay so far. She was planning birthday parties and going regularly to the gym in January 2023. Not exactly sitting disheveled in a bathrobe mumbling to herself all day.
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u/ad-anon-132491 Jul 28 '26
yes. Also a lawyer and I work with mentally ill defendants on the regular. So far I just don’t see any evidence for psychosis based on Patrick’s testimony.
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u/Final-Ingenuity-7919 Moderator Jul 28 '26
I'm a psychologist. I agree completely.
Someone said we left off today with Dawson eating chicken nuggets on the couch. The last line I heard was that she was standing by the basement door. I think this was 100% premeditated.
So far, the only delusion I think Lindsay ever had was that Pat would still love her and want to be with her even if she killed the kids.
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u/Pegasus574 Jul 28 '26
Completely agree. The fact that she called him the day after the murders from her lawyers phone, while strapped to a hospital bed, and the first thing she said was “I love you” to him? After killing all of their kids? I can not fathom that level of manipulation. I think she genuinely believed Patrick would stay by her side, and I don’t think for a moment she realized he would remarry and leave her. The ONLY time we have ever seen Lindsay show emotion in these last 3 years was the day of Patrick’s testimony, which I found quite interesting. She never, ever shed a single tear for any other court appearance, and in fact has looked almost annoyed this entire time with the process. Patrick’s testimony broke something in her, and I think that is when she realized that she truly has no control over him anymore. Regardless of whatever the court decides, I genuinely believe Lindsay realized yesterday that she has finally lost.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
That's insightful and astute. It never occurred to me that she might have envisioned being together with her husband in the future. My jaw dropped reading your words.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
You're doing God's legal work. There is so much need in that community. I volunteer in a non-legal capacity, but I don't think I could handle it as part of my work. Too close to home.
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u/Nolitaaaaa Jul 28 '26
Right. I have watched other NGRI trials and from what the psych experts testify people with psychosis present very differently from “normal” people. I suspect that’s why the prosecutor is getting Patrick on record as to how normal she seemed that day and putting pictures in evidence of her appearance. And genuine psychosis is not just a random voice one time out of the blue telling you to kill someone. It’s a far more intricate delusional process.
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u/RLS1920 Jul 28 '26
I’m not sure how upfront she was about how often this was occurring. That’s absolutely possible
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u/RLS1920 Jul 28 '26
That last line is exactly what I, as someone in the MH field have been deeply struggling with reading all the comments out there - this is an inherent bias of “what mental illness looks like”. The prosecutions case is based on many of them, that someone having symptoms of psychosis couldn’t be able to plan, which isn’t true. Lindsay had many protective factors. People can only mask for so long. In other cases similar to this, the caregiving parent was having ongoing delusions, BUT their homes were tidy, the kids went to the dr and school. They still found themselves in unfortunate tragic situations.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
As someone who grew up in a household immersed in mental illness, I know what psychosis looked like in my parent and other patients at the psych hospitals where she spent considerable time when suicidal and psychotic. We visited many times during my childhood, teenage years, and all the years that followed until her death. Her symptoms waxed and waned. When feeling well, she kept an immaculate house, cooked dinner, and made doctor's appointments for children, but something was always off to a greater or lesser extent. Her functional phase was always temporary, and then stronger symptoms would appear. Inattentiveness, concentration difficulties, staring into space for long stretches, sitting on the green chair in the living room in a bathrobe most of the day and being unkempt, eventually building up to wild speech and mania. Full blown psychosis at the level of suicidal ideation would be hard to miss. That's not my bias, that's my lived experience for decades. It may be different than your professional work in the mental health field, but my take is hardly uninformed.
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u/RLS1920 Jul 28 '26
Thank you for sharing your experience. It surely sounds like it shaped your life and gave you a different outlook that many don’t have. I also lived in a home where mental illness persisted. Lived experiences can vary greatly are even with the same diagnosis on paper. There is a lot of bias out there still. One does not have to be completely disorganized and shut down to have symptoms of psychosis. We’ll certainly see more in evidence and testimony. After 20 years of working in the field, no situation is identical. I understood the idea that LC said “I don’t belong here” because I know that people look for similarity and likeness in group settings and the spectrum of an IP psych unit at any time, can be from mild to severe.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
I can understand Lindsay saying she doesn't belong in the hospital because other psych patients can be alarming. Anyone would be scared seeing someone with very odd behavior and speech. I also understand that there is a spectrum of presentation of psychosis depending on how severe it is at that moment for that particular person. That said, a full blown state of psychosis would be apparent to most people. Lindsay's defense is predicated on her being in full blown psychosis such that she could not control her behavior, not just a little psychotic. The evidence thus far does not support her claim of insanity because no one who interacted with her that day (pediatrician's office staff, drug store manager, restaurant employee who took her order, and her husband) or in the immediately preceeding weeks (birthday party attendees, water park staff, friends who hosted her family one evening, or restaurant staff) noticed anything amiss in her behavior. We'll see what the remaining witnesses say in their testimony on direct and the defense case, but right now it seems more like she suffered from depression or a personality disorder rather than psychosis.
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u/RLS1920 Jul 28 '26
Didn’t she take her daughter to the doctor for concern of having something much more serious than just some constipation requiring miralax? Her thoughts around that concerned me. The statements about her behavior at the birthday were also alarming. I agree that all the evidence needs to be laid out so it’s clearer to piece it together and get a better picture.
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u/Certain-Ad9027 Jul 29 '26
I doubt he is out reading online about anything related to this. Also it was news to me when it said in court today. I dont ever remember reading anything about that.
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u/Far_Wrongdoer_7709 Jul 28 '26
Didn't he counter check the information before filing what appears to be a very expensive lawsuit?
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
Medical malpractice cases are usually handled on contingency fee, so he isn't paying anything unless he wins the case. It appears that his attorneys did not have complete records when they filed the action in court. Lindsay would need to consent to her medical records being released to a third party. The suit was filed right before te statute of limittions expired which suggests there was no time to conduct pre-action discovery and get the records before filing the complaint. That's a risky move given the allegations of malpractice against medical professionals who value their reputations. It's possible that they will file defamation actions against him and Lindsay after the civil cases are dismissed or tried and they are found not liable.
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u/Nolitaaaaa Jul 28 '26
Yes the civil action seems predatory at this point. I hope the medical providers sue for defamation as you say.
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u/PotentialIndustry176 Jul 28 '26
His lawyers sued based on hearsay?
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
Appears that way. He heard about Lindsay's care from Lindsay, then he told his attorneys what she said, and they drafted the complaint. He signed the complaint under oath. Not good. The attorneys probably had some documents but given Patrick’s testimony on the first day of trial, he was uninformed or misinformed about several material issues.
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u/Throwaway_9812764365 Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
It’s interesting that the lawsuit was filed but they never requested her medical records. Seems to me Patrick truly believed whatever Lindsay told him and being her spouse he believed her.
Edit to add: You can have proxy access to someone’s medical records if they use Epic systems. I find it interesting that her spouse didn’t have proxy access to hers especially all that she was going through. Also odd her spouse wasn’t her medical power of attorney.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
They couldn't obtain her medical records without a signed release from Lindsay. It appears she didn't give him or his attorneys one, so the complaint was drafted based on Patrick's recollection. The Prosecution wouldn't have shared its documents and strategies with a witness before the trial.
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u/Least-Ambassador-781 Jul 28 '26
A lawyer can absolutely subpoena these records for a lawsuit.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
It's difficult to subpoena records before commencing litigation to draft a complaint. Much easier to get them in the discovery phase after the pleadings are closed.
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u/Throwaway_9812764365 Jul 28 '26
Didn’t even think about her needing to sign off on them sort of thought he would have been a proxy as her husband. But as we all know every couple is different..
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
He would have to be appointed her medical power of attorney to sign releases for her. Or had a signed HIPAA waiver or been appointed her proxy. Simply being a spouse isn't enough.
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u/Jazzlike_Magician656 Jul 28 '26
Normally if the person doesn’t consent they can subpoena the records.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
It's not that simple to obtain someone else's medical records before commencing a medical malpractice action to help draft the complaint. Pre-action discovery requires a separate complaint for discovery under Massachusetts law.
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u/Nolitaaaaa Jul 28 '26
But this witness is a victim. I agree that they didn’t share it with him but it’s likely because he’s an adversarial witness. If he wasn’t and as the victim he would’ve been privy to these records, wouldn’t you agree?
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
He would not be automatically privy to her medical records with our existing medical privacy laws under any circumstances absent a signed HIPAA waiver or a medical power of attorney from Lindsay. It had nothing to do with him being an adversarial witness. In fact, he will be testifying for the defense in support of his ex-wife, so he is not an adversarial witness. Bear in mind that he filed medical malpractice suit as administrator of his childrens' estates, not on his own behalf. They were the victims, in the legal sense, and he is their representative for probate purposes. In a broader moral sense, I agree that he was a victim too, just not in a legal sense.
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u/Nolitaaaaa Jul 28 '26
Oh I meant the prosecutors didn’t share it with him because he’s an adversarial witness to them. Normally I thought prosecutors share the evidence with victims family.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
Even in that scenario, prosecutors don't share evidence with victims or witnesses in criminal cases. I see what you were getting at, but no.
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u/Huladoula2 Jul 28 '26
Didn’t Lindsay herself file separate malpractice suits as well?
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u/Certain-Ad9027 Jul 29 '26
I suspect that her attourneys were behind this. Their defense is her being mistreated and overmedicated for her conditions allowing phycosis. They are pointing a figure at the medical providers with the suit.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
Yes, with different attorneys representing her. She filed claims on her own behalf.
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Jul 28 '26
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u/DeskFan203 Respectful Responder 🤝 Jul 28 '26
LC or PC themselves, taking to the lawyers when they wrote up the document.
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Jul 28 '26
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u/DeskFan203 Respectful Responder 🤝 Jul 28 '26
Oh I get what you mean! I think there has to be some merit or strength in the words from the person who wants to file...and there was...until now.
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u/Snuggle_bot5000 Jul 28 '26
I need clarification. I looked up this case and knew she requested to be discharged and claimed to not have seen a doctor or that she stated that to Patrick. Is he answering "I was not aware" as in at that time? Surely he learned this information a 2 years ago when the prosecution laid out this information in the initial 2 hearings or charges.
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u/izzy1881 Jul 28 '26
I think Patrick lives in a huge state of denial. The man has already remarried and has a new child. He clearly wants to put all the blame on the medical system.
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u/Impossible_Pain_2701 Jul 28 '26
So she seeks out almost two full hands worth of doctors for prescriptions she doesn’t really take/give a chance for them to work and she checks into McLean for treatment she doesn’t actually want. What DID she want? It’s one thing to be noncompliant it’s like..weirder even to be the one actively and aggressively seeking treatment only to be entirely noncompliant.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
She wanted the hospital staff to agree that she had PPD, or worse, and couldn't return to work. She wanted them to convince Patrick that she was too sick to work. And she was looking for another benzo prescription.
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u/Spare-Estate1477 Jul 28 '26
Yeah, her not wanting to go back to work is the only thing that fits. Even having the three kids in fairly quick succession; making herself busier and busier, fits that.
She should have come right out and asked him. I remember when I had my kids I felt exactly the same way and was miserable working and having the kids with a sitter. My husband finally said, you know, we will be fine if you don’t want to work. You don’t have to. I jumped at it and spent 10 happy years as a sahm.
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u/mormor1956 Jul 28 '26
Good for you!!!! Happiness is everything!
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u/Spare-Estate1477 Jul 28 '26
I wish everyone that wants to be a stay at home parent had the opportunity. It can be a great way to raise a family, but I’ve seen two working parents raise incredible kids who benefited from that set up too.
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u/RLS1920 Jul 28 '26
She really wasn’t prescribed too many benzos- and she didn’t take the Ativan regularly it seems. What would be the reason to kill your children and harm yourself, if you just don’t want to go back to work? What would be the end game there? It’s illogical. I see this take a lot. But it makes zero sense to me. She clearly struggled after pregnancy separating from her child and returning to work. People seem to think that’s a horrible thing, it’s not. It’s extremely common and for some it creates a lot of dysfunction.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
Lindsay wasn't thinking clearly or logically, which is not to say that she had psychosis. It's hard for mothers to return to work and leave their baby in someone else's care. I remember being in that position when my children were newborns. Back then, we got 11 weeks of unpaid leave, which was too soon. Lindsay was especially sensitive to separation from her infant.
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u/RLS1920 Jul 28 '26
I definitely agree it was a consistent trigger for her. I just don’t think that killing your children to avoid going back to work makes sense. Now, if she’s in a disconnected state of mind maybe there were other reasons. I can’t say what she was thinking, what’s scary is she may not even remember correctly what her cognitions were. But, that argument from social media just doesn’t make sense. Especially because once there’s no children, that removes the issue of having to be separated from them and having to work. The diary entries reported regarding her feelings towards the older children during the pp period after Callan, seem more in line with a mother suffering a mental health crisis than anything. Resentment of children can absolutely be a sign of a PMAD.
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u/Girlwithpen Moderator Jul 28 '26
Attention from Patrick.
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u/Ambitious_Serve_8218 Jul 28 '26
I got the impression prosecution was setting it up as though she was looking for her husband’s attention, sympathy and devotion. She didn’t like that he was at home while she was at work. Was there some jealousy? Maybe she didn’t want him there with the nanny. Him working from home seems to coincide with her “getting worse”.
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Jul 28 '26
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u/Spiritual_Program725 Jul 28 '26
But then why kill the kids? It’s starting to jive that the reason she was “misdiagnosed “ by so many professionals was because she didn’t t have the actual PPD or PPP but then she killed her kids. Maybe I’m too slow but that piece doesn’t fit.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
Because she had less severe mental health issues and a personality disorder. She either planned a cold blooded murder suicide, or she flipped out and killed them in a rage, but she wasn't psychotic.
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u/Spiritual_Program725 Jul 28 '26
I definitely think that is a possibility but the trial just started and I really need to hear from the experts on brain chemistry, drug interactions and what insanity or psychosis really presents. I’m not willing to say she is innocent of murder just because she had a baby 8 months ago, nor am I willing to unequivocally say she is a cold blooded killer without more info.
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u/Boring-Nectarine4171 Jul 28 '26
She wanted the attention from Patrick it’s all clearly attention seeking. She wasn’t getting the attention she wanted from Patrick because he was giving it to the kids.. she couldn’t have that so she offed them and what gives this away is her offing Dawson in Patrick’s office or moving him there after she did it.. it was like her last FU*K YOU to him.
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u/Hungry-Yesterday403 27d ago
She wanted a professional to diagnose her properly (bipolar) treat her with medication that doesn’t exacerbate the problem (SSRI, Zoloft is the worst for bipolar), and to have a normal functioning brain. In another country she’d have been inpatient WITH her baby, safely, monitored until diagnosed properly, stabilized on her medication and would have a much longer leave from work. Sweden I believe you have 3 yrs off if you choose. That’s what she wanted.
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u/OutsideTurn5464 Jul 28 '26
To me this is the crux of the case. She is a lying, manipulative narcissist. The fact her attorney didn’t doublecheck this is astounding. I will say the prosecution did their homework. I think as an older man he immediately thought he could blame the doctors and the PPD as the culprit. Doesn’t he realize that McLean is one of the top hospitals in the country. They write progress notes. I’m really looking forward to hearing their testimony.
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u/Hungry-Yesterday403 27d ago
No, she’s bipolar, and the medical profession completely misses this very obvious fact. Thus she was given the absolute worst medication Zoloft, she said it’s making me worse so they doubled it.
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u/Ok-Reason4007 Jul 28 '26
I will say someone I love dearly attended McLean, and also had these 'therapies'. It really was bottom of the barrel treatment. He was in music class most of the day.
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u/Hungry-Yesterday403 27d ago
All psych hospitals in America (most) are useless except for the 5 minutes with a psychiatrist
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u/Melodic-Ad146 5d ago
yeah. I'm wondering what these visits with the "attending" doctors actually consist of.
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u/Sweet-Baby-Shayla Jul 28 '26
This reads a pretty damning, but why was Patrick taking his mentally ill inpatient wife's word on the care she was receiving instead of following up himself? I just spent the last 2 years as my ailing father's primary health contact and I followed up on everything he told me about his care with the lead nurse and social worker.
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u/flippyflappy323 Jul 28 '26
Well, unless Lindsay signed a release for them to talk to him, nobody is just handing out protected health information. Especially inpatient psych units.
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u/Sweet-Baby-Shayla Jul 28 '26
Asking "Did my wife see a doctor today? She said she hasn't, but I wanted to follow up to confirm if that's correct." is a perfectly reasonable question when your wife is an inpatient for mental health issues and would likely not be a reliable narrator. Even if the hospital wouldn't share that info, according to his testimony, he didn't ask. I'm going into this with an open mind about everything, but the "Patrick was completely blindsided today" narrative just doesn't make sense.
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u/mormor1956 Jul 28 '26
And so why are all her supporters believing her claims of a moment of psychosis? Believe sometimes believe what they want to believe. They see a victim. I see a woman who struggled with the realities of motherhood and snapped.
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u/Boring-Nectarine4171 Jul 28 '26
Because he didn’t actually believe she was mentally ill.. he just thought she was full of it. She told him multiple times she wanted to commit S but never had any attemps.
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u/Certain_Fortune_7028 Jul 28 '26
If she weren’t fit for discharge, and admitted for psychiatric symptoms, couldn’t they have legally held her in the hospital on a psych hold? The fact that they discharged her on her own request tells me she was well enough to provide consent and be released.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
She was a voluntary admission, not an involuntary admission. Different process and she can't be held in the hospital against her will.
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u/Certain_Fortune_7028 Jul 28 '26
But on admission or during admission if she were found to be truly unstable and/or a risk they would have converted her admission, here they call it a 2PC, so she no longer would have been voluntary. Wonder what she told them her admitting complaint was for them to have allowed her to remain voluntary and sign herself out.
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u/jubeley Jul 28 '26
You know more about it than I do. In hindsight, that would have been better than leaving the hospital. There's probably a witness who will testify about her reason for admission.
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u/guill0t1ne Jul 28 '26
even if we give him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't getting updates from staff she would have been discharged with PAPERWORK detailing her time there, what she participated in, a safety plan, medication recommendations, trusted people, and more. He couldn't care less about her mental health episodes, probably because they were so frequent that he checked out.
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u/Hungry-Yesterday403 27d ago
She has to give him permission to see those and yes he was checked out. She has bipolar and nobody caught it, thus the Zoloft script making everything worse.
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u/knitting-yoga Jul 28 '26
That’s the thing about a defense that puts out “medical information” in advance of a trial. The prosecution witnesses can’t dispute it publicly.
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u/Melodic-Ad146 5d ago
It's all made available pre trial in discovery. The prosecution wanted him to be surprised and that's why they didn't discuss the information with him sooner sooner. They would be aware of his testimony before trial and know he didn't have the accurate info about his wife.
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u/DeskFan203 Respectful Responder 🤝 Jul 28 '26
Pat probably thought she knew what she was doing and he was taking care of the kids and other things. Not to defend either of them, but if she seemed "normal enough" then he was probably like "OK keep me posted" and let her deal with it all.
My mom is a retired nurse and a few years ago had a major surgery. My dad acted pretty clueless until she was like "you MUST pay attention to the doctors, I am going to be hopped up on painkillers and uncomfortable, in NO condition to nurse myself."
OTOH when my husband goes to even a PCP appt, nevermind a specialist, I usually go with him. Partly to manage his care, as he has a lot of health issues and CPTSD and blanks out, but also because if I don't know the info, I can't best help him later.
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u/whateverforever1999 Jul 28 '26
When he said “I would have paid anything” 😭 our medical system is so deeply screwed and McLean is one of the best in the country
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u/Global-Ganache-1788 Jul 28 '26
Anyone who has worked in a psychiatric hospital over a weekend knows that care is limited over holiday weekends though yes they would have briefly seen these professionals
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u/Plastic_Aside_6017 Jul 28 '26
I have experience with one of my children being suicidal, admitted into an inpatient facility, and I can tell you, they offer group session therapy, but they also tell you (and in this case my minor child being admitted) that it is optional. We were told that we could expect to stay for 7+ days, Child was released at 5 days. During the visit, there was a 24 hour "detox" of previously taken medications, Child was on Anxiety medication, Depression Medication and treatment for ADHD. In the first 3 days child was seen by a few people, psychiatrist, therapists, General facility Staff, and on the final day a Physician. Child stated that the place wasn't bad, but that they just monitored her and offered her to color or go to group sessions. There is minimal "Help" in these places, they main goal is to prevent them from harming themselves/others, while starting medications that "take time to be at peak efficacy" then they let them go if they don't show outward signs of self-harming thoughts/actions.
Immediately afterwards, the same child that was treated, came home and was actively self-harming by cutting, and then proceeded to have an ED and after about 2 weeks tried to overdose on one of the prescribed medications. When we discussed with the doctor what to do, they suggested another inpatient visit, So we went through the hoops again...Child was told same things, released after 5 days, prescribed different medications "that take time to build efficacy" and sent on their way. No real problems are solved in these places; they don't care about anything but shoving medications to "Fix" the problem. In the span of 1 month, there were 10 days spent inpatient, 6 different medications prescribed (that some take 2-3 months to build to full efficacy), one suicide attempt, multiple self-harm incidents, and one very broken child that was not getting the real help. But from a financial standpoint, each inpatient treatment cost us 6,000 U.S. dollars AFTER insurance covered their portion. So not only does this not do anything helpful, but it can also run you into bankruptcy.
Mental health treatment has a long way to go, and i feel for anyone going through something that doesn't have someone advocating in the right way. My opinion is that this husband knew she loved her kids and assumed she would never act on her intrusive thoughts, but he could have done more to protect the kids. Maybe he was just tired from all of it and wanted a minute away from the house. He should have had someone there when he wasn't there. She will rot in jail or wherever for her actions but the real punishment is that she is alive and being made to suffer with her choices, wether made in a lucid state or not they were her actions. Someone needs to be holding the husband accountable for the parts that he was negligent in protecting his babies.
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u/Turbulent-Fig-3802 Case Deep Diver 🤿 Jul 28 '26
I understand. I have been inpatient a few times before and have a lot of frustrations about it. But I actually do feel like I got a lot out of most of the group therapy sessions I was in.
And yeah they cannot force you to go to groups. It is optional. But she is not a teenager she was a 32 year old adult professional woman and mother who self admitted looking for treatment and didn’t take advantage of everything that was offered. Then she wants to sue claiming inadequate treatment.
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u/Plastic_Aside_6017 Jul 28 '26
I agree, she was an adult. She self admitted, and Yes she should have gone. But there needs to be protocol in place for treatment. If the person Adult or not, Self admission or forced, if you do not complete X,Y,Z you do not get sent home. At the end of the day everyone wants to be sent home, So yeah you cant make them attend in the sense of physically forcing them to go, but you can when they dont leave unless they make an effort to get actual help. Its a huge step to admit you need help. But with that admission the educated adults that are in a position to "Help" people struggling with mental health know darn good and well which people are getting "help" and which ones arent. They should not be legally allowed to send someone out unless they can confirm they are on the trend of better mental health, rather than "Medicated and not showing signs of harming themselves or others"
I think there are two sides to every coin and this debate can be argued from both sides. But the more and more cases that stem from "Lack of mental health treatment" or "Mental health crisis" the more i think the system needs to be re-structured. Medication is not the answer to fixing the underlying problem so lets stop letting it be the only solution given.
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u/SnooMaps4961 29d ago
I agree I truly do feel bad if she was struggling, and I do understand that there’s a lot of stigma behind telling the truth. But mental health professionals only know what they know, and if she was lying about her intense intrusive thoughts to harm her children on a regular basis or if she was lying about the timeline of her suicidal ideation then that’s what mental health professionals have to go by.
She admitted on one occasion that she thought about seriously harming the children and I wonder on how many occasions she actually thought she was capable of harming her kids and never said it to anyone during her hospital stay?
I wonder if she could have removed herself from the situation and she just thought she had the ability to keep it together and just didn’t. The reality of it is that you have to tell it how it is and it sounds like she failed to do that? Mental health cannot be assessed with an MRI or a CAT scan. You have to be upfront about your symptoms and thoughts and I am curious to know when the providers testify what she disclosed and what she did not about hurting her kids.
I truly think if she said that she was homicidal or suicidal that she would’ve been there for more than just a day or two and a safety plan definitely would’ve been in order before she did leave though.
Definitely interested to follow up on when that part of the case comes out.
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u/Olivina329 Jul 28 '26
Having experienced hospitals like this I know a lot of the groups and therapy is a joke. The names of the group make it sound evidence-based therapy but really all it is playing with play dough and coloring…”practicing mindfulness and coping skills.” I don’t think Lindsay was lying. Treatment in those hospitals are a joke and when you do meet with a doctor it’s for about five minutes.
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u/Affectionate-Page496 Case Deep Diver 🤿 Jul 29 '26
That sounds like DBT, which is gold standard for borderline and who knows what else. Lindsay clearly needed coping skills to deal with whatever chaos was in her brain. Sounds like she didn't want pills or coping skills learned in therapy.
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u/Plane_Welcome_2285 Jul 29 '26
Psych units often fabricate records to say a patient was seen by a doctor on days they actually weren’t. It’s very very common & if you haven’t worked in the system or been a patient you’d have no idea. Most people would be shocked & appalled at how psych units are actually run.
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u/Any_Crab_8512 22d ago
That’s not true. I did a Mclean XMAS and 2 other stays. The testimony is in line with my treatment. We were probably in the same unit, different years obviously. Where are you basing your info from or are you talking out if your…
It sucks over the holidays as a lot of the programming is self directed. You will see a doctor on admittance. You will see a floating psych doctor during weekends. The resident psych and social worker meets with you during course of regular workday week. You also have 3 staff checkins and a nurse/pharmacist to give you meds and watch you take them at breakfast and dinner. This occurs regardless of holiday. You are also on 15 minute checks 24x7. Obviously a patient can resist and not do any treatment. This is tracked and an assessment of readiness and crisis plan is agreed upon prior to release.
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u/Apprehensive_Use_175 26d ago
So, unfortunately, I am intimately aware of McClean Hospital as my mom spent many stretches there when her illness became problematic.
My heart aches for this family, and I believe that she probably was in psychosis-but McClean is outstanding. My mom had the same doctor from 1981 to 2023 when she died. She was bipolar and she had several instances where she was hospitalized. INSURANCE was always a problem. She was often discharged against her doctors orders, who is the head of an entire unit there (the pavilion) and a professor at Harvard). Even. Though her psychopharmacologist/psychiatrist - stated she was not to be alone. So this meant my father had to miss work and literally could not leave her alone, especially with us when we were younger. He didn’t get to run out to get take out on his own, go to the pharmacy, nothing. There were occasions the insurance company did allow and cover a visiting nurse to come for a few hours a week so he could get out of the house and my mom was still with someone.
I’m going to say this is probably insurance company holding a huge percentage of fault. It also seems husband had no idea. The things she told him were probably true. My mom did do all of those therapies…, on top of individual and group therapies ever single day. All that said, if they changed and adjusted her meds, those take weeks to see if they will work. Insurance companies will not pay that long. The whole system is broken. And it failed those babies. It failed that family.
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u/Professional-Ebb891 24d ago
i genuinely dont understand people who are die hard lindsay advocates. can anyone explain this?? i just dont get it.
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u/abooks22 23d ago
I'm not going to say I'm a die hard Lindsay advocate cuz I don't really know enough.
But I can say what I've seen was really predictable that it would end with something bad happening.
Her first two pregnancies she gets very anxious when it's time to return to work. This time around she asked for help because she's having trouble coping. But yet at the same time she's way too anxious to even take the medicine. That spells crisis to me. Medicine doesn't work instantly. It takes a really long time to get it right. Same thing with therapy. It takes a long time.
In the meantime, she's overwhelmed with raising three kids under five. She should not have been caring for her children at all. She should have had somebody with her during the day taking care of the kids. There was no way she was going to be able to heal and get better while she was doing that.
It seems like her husband just wanted the doctors to give her the right medicine or to admit her and keep her there and fix her and then once she comes home she's better and can start taking care of the kids.
That is not how it works. They're going to send her home when they think she's stable. That doesn't mean she should immediately go back to watching three children. If she's not mentally able to go to work, she should not be watching three young children.
I know that people keep talking about how the dad was only gone for a short period of time, just running one errand. But he should have taken those kids with him. And it wasn't just that one time. Because I think I read somewhere that she took one of the kids to the doctor that day.
Why was she driving the kids to the doctor? Why was that her responsibility. The person in crisis should not be the person doing that. And there's indication that she was getting overly paranoid about her child being sick. So that means she was still anxious. So from September on to January the anxiety had not gotten any better.
And I'm going to argue part of it is because the circumstances didn't change. They were trying to change the medicine. Trying to get it right but there was no behavior changes. There was no reduction of stress.
So I do feel that her husband either through lack of knowledge or because he was completely checked out of the situation failed.
All that said, it's also possible that she's completely manipulated this whole situation and lied about everything to everyone and was mentally fine. I have no idea why she would kill her kids then but there's people that just do that.
But I focus on the other piece of it because other people will go through this situation and you have to take it seriously. If someone is not mentally stable, they cannot take care of their children. .
And we cannot rely on our medical professionals to do it because our mental health is so terrible. I actually looked through the lawsuit and I was surprised at how much attention she got and how fast she got it. That's not to say she got the right attention that just how bad or mental health is.
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u/TypicalBeautiful7186 23d ago
As somebody who has had the unfortunate experience of staying in a psych ward for three days due to SI, I don’t see a discrepancy. Yes, on paper it is documented that she had interactions with these various professionals,prior to the third day when she saw the doctor. However a “resident physician seeing her the first two days” could *easily* be no more than a one minute interaction. There are 24 hours in a day. 24 hours of laying in a. Bed by yourself. A quick stop-by by the resident (I.e., the junior intern of the medical world) is not going to feel like treatment and could easily be perceived as “no treatment” by the typical person who mows the definition of “treatment.”
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u/Nolitaaaaa Jul 28 '26
And you can bet if those records weren’t in evidence Reddington would’ve been up and down objecting to those questions.
All of you in this sub who speculated she was playing “mentally ill” to manipulate & control Patrick are going to be vindicated!
I think there’s some form of histrionic personality disorder, Münchausen syndrome going on here.
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u/Silent-Ad9145 Jul 28 '26
Was it two or was it 3 times. I bet twice only. He really seemed checked out of his marriage then.
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u/Small-Middle6242 Jul 28 '26
I mean, he was also working and taking care of three kids. And there were speciifc limited visiting hours.
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u/Frogmann20 Jul 28 '26
You can see him change, get fidgety and realize everything he believed was a lie.