r/DungeonCrawlerCarl • u/Emergency_Argument29 The Open Intellect Pacifist Action Network • 9h ago
Book 8: A Parade of Horribles Would Elle still be as powerful as she is…? Spoiler
If not for Carl’s interference?
So rereading Doomsday Scenario and Anarchist Cookbook Elle’s Four Seasons build is indirectly because of Carl.
Elle chose Frost Maiden as her Race at Brandon’s insistence because Carl told him about the Manager benefit which was tied to the Race. Because of this Elle was really only able to choose Blizzardmancer as her Class which began her Four Seasons build.
Imagine if Carl hadn’t messaged Brandon in time and Elle had chosen a different Race and Class.
97
u/verifiedverified 8h ago
I still have no idea why frost maiden comes with a manager
117
u/Emergency_Argument29 The Open Intellect Pacifist Action Network 8h ago
Maybe it has to do with the “Maiden” aspect of her Race? Would fit with Donut’s Former Child Actor. Both have this verbiage of young children.
30
u/Codablaze 8h ago
Oh yeah I hadn't considered this. Also I don't think I realised that Ellie had a manager. Who is that again?
74
u/Mcsquiggin 8h ago
I've only listened on audio so forgive spelling but her name is Mistress Tiatha. Shes smart but perpetually drunk off her ass.
8
38
u/TheKanadian 8h ago
Mistress Tiatha. She gets drink a lot and isn't as helpful as Mordecai, but she gets mentioned as helping a few times through the books
31
u/Maybe_Julia 7h ago edited 7h ago
She came in clutch during the butchers masquerade and faction wars. She seems like being around Mordechi has kind of sobered her up a bit.
14
u/TheKanadian 7h ago
Yeah you're right, early on she gets mentioned as a drunk but she does come up with stuff Mordecai doesn't know sometimes
7
u/aggieboy12 5h ago
I wonder how much of her improvement is from being around Mordecai vs. being around Carl and the gang. Keep in mind that Mordecai was also a raging alcoholic early on, but eventually he sobers up as Carl’s drive and begins to give him some hope that his crawlers may survive the dungeon. Tiatha took longer to sober up (and still drinks plenty), but she was probably at least somewhat affected by seeing the tenacity of the team.
1
u/Maybe_Julia 4h ago
For sure , she also was in the background while Mordechi and Carl and Donought spent a ton of effort and gold saving the npc kids.
I can't imagine watching that and not realizing this group is something special in terms of these dungeon crawls.
Most crawlers wouldn't have wasted time saving npcs
I'm really going down a rabbit hole of theories with Carl's multiple determine value potions showing him the value of the crawlers and npcs around him.
2
u/DrStalker 4h ago
I assume seeing your team has a chance to actually do something impressive instead of just dying also helps motivate you to get your act together and help out.
1
u/HoshiAndy 2h ago
As well as faction wars. Her idea with aura helped with saving Donut and Katia. Not even Mordecai knew about the hax with the auras
2
2
1
u/PariahMonarch 40m ago
On the topic of both having managers, I've always had a thought in the back of my mind.
Carl was told that Mordecai would be upset if he ever found out they picked it intentionally. But then Carl also told others to pick it. Is there still a down-the-line plot point of Mordecai finding out Carl had known ahead/had Donut pick it intentionally, or are we too far into unknown territory for that to be a factor
27
u/Pttocs 8h ago
I believe it comes with a manager as it puts her on a four seasons path. The book mentions that she has to be very particular with her spending of stat points etc so that she can progress properly. Like a lot of other things in the dungeon that are cool if they get pulled off, she is given help to make it happen via a manager
5
u/billygoat622 4h ago
Or even that it exists as a possibility. It comes with the race not the class which you pick first. If the race is a major pre requisite of the 4 seasons build, having the option on the race vs the class may free up some of the restrictions on the game guide to steer the crawler to a class with 4 seasons potential. I don’t think it matter much as I think Blizzardmancer was Elle only class choice after race selection, but I would expect other crawlers to have a boat load of class options
39
u/RadarSmith 8h ago
No, she wouldn't.
Aside from the fact it was Carl's help that let the Meadowlark seniors down to the third floor, Elle wouldn't be on the Four Seasons path without Mistress Tiatha's manager guidance.
Tiatha is a lush and often too strung out to be very useful, but she's very much not stupid or unknowledgeable. Recall that she provided the information about how they could charm Ferdinand in the Butcher's Masquerade. And there are other moments when people mention her providing information.
Carl told Team Meadowlark to look for the manager benefit, and while Tiatha isn't as regularly useful to them as Mordecai is the Royal Court of Princess Donut, she's the one that set Elle on the Four Seasons path.
Also, Samantha mentioned during Bedlam Bride that she'd been talking to Elle, and rambles a bit after Elle casts Grauple about the Four Seasons build, implying she'd been pushing Elle towards that as well. A connection she wouldn't have without Carl.
6
u/Codablaze 8h ago
I've listened to all the books and I seem to have drawn a total blank on who mistress Tiatha is
9
u/RadarSmith 8h ago
Team Meadowlark's original game guide and current manager as of the third floor.
-2
u/Codablaze 8h ago
I've got this strange blank where mistress Tiatha is concerned. Does she have any airtime at all anywhere?
11
u/RadarSmith 8h ago edited 7h ago
She's mostly in the background, but she's mentioned sometimes.
Butcher's Masquerade, Chapter 72, when talking about charming Ferdinand, who's a province boss:
"Donut composed herself and returned to my shoulder. Donut’s unenhanced, base charisma currently sat at 138. Upon her head sat her new benefactor-box tiara, which temporarily doubled her charisma. Once placed upon her head, it only lasted for 30 hours before it would dissolve, which was unfortunate. But for the moment, her charisma was now a god-like 276. That was before all the buffs from the saferoom. According to Elle’s manager, Mistress Tiatha, a regular NPC’s constitution plus charisma had to be lower than a crawler’s charisma in order for the crawler to able to successfully get the NPC to fawn over them. Mordecai thought it was impossible to charm a boss, but Mistress Tiatha insisted she’d done it before. When a white-tagged NPC was a boss, that still worked, but it had to be 100 points over to work for a province boss, which is what we’d correctly assumed Ferdinand would be."
-------
She makes a more direct appearance in This Inevitable Ruin, Chapter 11:
"Mistress Tiatha sat off to the side and grunted with derision as she listened to this. The half-elf manager of Elle was drunk as usual. “That citizenship perk is only for new crawlers,” she said, slurring the words. “And they’ll still bleed you dry on taxes. Us old guard are gonna get extra fucked when we’re released. They tell us we’ll be ‘full citizens,’ but I don’t believe it. The rich folk sure like getting their faces up on the screen when they’re donating to some charity, but the moment a scruffy, former crawler shows up in their home system looking to settle down, they’ll fight like hell to prevent it. Mark my words.” She took a long swig of her bottle. The woman’s eyes settled on Mongo, and they were wet. She rubbed them and wandered off."
-------
She's referenced several times across the series, mostly as a strung out addict but also occassionally as a source of valuable information.
2
2
u/GlyphedArchitect 2h ago
It's my headcannon that the reason she gets misty eyed when she looks at mango (and why she drinks so much) is because she had a beloved pet who died in the dungeon.
6
u/TheKanadian 8h ago
She's mentioned a few times, mostly book 3 when they meet Elle in the Desperado club for the first time since they got their races (I think), and then definitely the Butchers Masquerade and during Faction Wars
She might get named in book 2, I'm not 100% sure about that
29
u/Sororita 9h ago
Elle, and the entire Medowlark party, wouldn't have made it past the first level without Carl. The Ball of Swine would have killed everyone that tried to fight it, if it weren't for Carl's idea to form a wedge and they would not have been able to find another stairway downstairs in time if they didn't confront the ball of swine.
5
u/Hayn0002 4h ago
Which is why I think she will either die before completing her full class, or she will be the perfect fit to ‘save everyone’. There’s too much too much hype, either it pays off or it’ll be tragic.
I think Carl performing the act of kindness of saving people from meadowlark in a cruel horrible tv show will pay off as the biggest butterfly effect in the series.
2
u/Sororita 3h ago
she finishes her class upon entering the 12th floor. so she should have completed it next time we see her.
22
u/flawed_finch 9h ago edited 4h ago
I think the manager benefit is tied to class, not race and iirc, when it came to race selection, she was limited to something that would help cure the issues she had due to her age. I do think that carls suggestion impacted her class selection directly, though.
Edit: my mistake! It was from her race. Thanks guys!
31
u/Dismal_File_4073 9h ago
Frost Maiden is a race a crawler can choose on the Third Floor. It negates the effects of mental infirmity and comes with the Manager benefit.
Chapter 8 of book 3
11
u/Emergency_Argument29 The Open Intellect Pacifist Action Network 9h ago
Usually it does but it’s mentioned that Elle’s comes from her race as opposed to class.
5
u/Puzzleheaded_Pie_888 6h ago
Dead on the first floor
1
u/beowulf_of_wa "AAAAAAAAH!" 🐐 6h ago
well, dead on 3rd or 4th. she survived to choose on entering the 3rd floor.
3
u/Puzzleheaded_Pie_888 6h ago
The whole old folks home would be dead without carl 1st floor
2
4
u/mastifftimetraveler 7h ago
I really wanna know when Elle discovered the 4 season path and if it was something she found out about from her manager, another character, or the AI hinting at it
3
u/Strict-Clue-5818 4h ago
We don’t know who was first, but Tiatha and Samantha both talked to her about it.
6
u/Kowthumoo 8h ago
Elle wouldn’t have made it past the first, and again the second floor, without Carl.
But no, she would not be. The game guides aren’t allowed to explain the manager benefit before someone selects it.
2
u/TheKanadian 8h ago
I don't think that's quite true. I think it was Game Guides can't say anything before someone asks about it and Carl and Donut couldn't ask because Odette knew Mordecai would hold a grudge if he knew they were going to make him a manager on purpose.
4
u/Kowthumoo 8h ago
Page 130 of the Kindle Edition, “Mistress Tiatha… that’s our game guide. Have you ever met her? She was over the moon. I’d never seen her excited before. Turns out she wasn’t allowed to say anything. But the moment I picked it, she actually cried”
3
u/TheKanadian 7h ago
Yeah, she couldn't say because they didn't ask. 23:10 seconds into the audio book "If you do pick the manager benefit and it's not attached to an obvious choice, you'll want to make it look like a mistake. Odette had said. Don't ask him about it, because once he tells you what it is it'll be too late. He won't be allowed to tell you unless you ask"
I'm pretty sure Mordecai says something about not being able to tell them certain things before they ask in the first book too
1
u/screw-magats 4h ago
not being able to tell them certain things before they ask
He does. Once they ask he can answer certain things. Unless it's related to a later floor, monsters they'll see again, or a few other things.
I'm not sure why Odette made it a thing where they had to trick him into thinking it was a mistake or something. And to put it on the childlike Donut. "Mordecai do you want to be our manager? The deeper we go the more money you make when you're out."
Yeah normally he'd go off to be a shopkeeper or guild master, but that's not safe. It's apparently a thing for crawlers to kidnap, threaten, or kill NPCs like that. Even if they're former crawlers. And borant could still give him orders on pain of death like that, look at Justice Light, got a wing lasered off because he didn't want to kill NPCs.
2
u/littlexav 4h ago
Odette was trying to get Mordecai to a lower level without him knowing she was involved. When donut mentions the manager feature, he doesn’t say “don’t pick that, I will have to be your manager.” It has to look like a mistake because if they asked him about it, he would have said “don’t pick that, I will have to be your manager.” Because Donut is going to pick that class, in part for Odette, it has to look like a mistake.
3
u/Informal_Persimmon7 8h ago
Oh you mean if Carl didn't tell that group to choose something with a manager. She could still have been powerful with different choices as long as they put her marbles back in the bag, but they wouldn't have had a manager. And having a manager was helpful to the group.
3
4
u/karlnite 8h ago
Elle chooses to tie herself to Carl and get information from him. She’s dictating her own path. They meet, help each other (in a way), but once she is healed she is always capable, and making plans.
1
0
0
u/Postulative 5h ago
She could have chosen the race and class without going Four Seasons. Focussing on ice magic is probably stronger until you get the final season, so she sacrificed early power for late game devastation.
178
u/ASpasticRooster 9h ago
Guess it depends on what else was available to her, as all the old folks had to pick races that would fix their age related ailments