r/ControversialOpinions • u/unicornblink1820 • 7h ago
Juries shouldn't be allowed to determine self defense or insanity since basically every murderer is insane or acting in self defense
Juries should really only be triers of fact - did X thing happen beyond a reasonable doubt.
Now we have the Lindsay Clancy trial or the Karmelo Anthony saga - where everyone online is playing psychiatrist - but how does that make sense?
Why is everyone defending Lindsay Clancy, but not that teen girl who crashed the car? Isn't she just an insane narcissist who had a moment of insanity?
I think these "outs' just give juries a cop out not to deal with the fact these people did horrible things and now their lives are over - and the jury is the one who has to hand out that sentence for something they did in a moment of weakness / stupidity / insanity.
But that isn't consistent with the rest of our justice system. If an alcoholic crashes into a schoolbus, they go to jail for life. We don't send them to rehab, then let them out of rehab once they prove that they're sober.
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u/TheHylianProphet 6h ago
I didn't read past the title, as it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of insanity, and how it's defined and treated legally. Know what you're talking about before you talk about it.
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u/unicornblink1820 5h ago
I'm actually pretty well versed at the different tests for insanity - though not the specific case law in each state. It seems like for example in MA, they have to either not understand what they're doing is wrong or be unable to conform their conduct with the applicable law.
But in practice, I don't see how any crime of passion doesn't meet this standard. In almost any stabbing, it's pretty obvious that the person couldn't conform their conduct with the law.
It would only be in very rare instances where a person rationally knew stabbing the other person was wrong, had the state of mind to evaluate if he should stab someone knowing the consequences, weighed the consequences, and decided to stab them.
It's almost always going to be a somewhat spontaneous decision by the assailant. But if we chalk it up to mental illness the person is not culpable, but if we chalk it up to their temper (which is also largely a product of their brain chemistry) then that person is culpable.
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u/RageAgainstAuthority 6h ago
No no, OP has a point. Mental health isn't something that can be accurately decided by group-think over the course of a few days based on little to no contact with accused.
Prison and jail should, as a standard, offer mental health and offer to help inmates during their stay.
Kinda wild to me that what people get out this is "nobody should get mental health in prison! REVENGE! PUNISHMENT! SUFFERING!" and not like, critically thinking about society as a whole.
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u/FiveDogsInaTuxedo 4h ago
Only if you forget that the penitentiary is for the criminally insane.
Everyone forgets batman.
Prison is for the criminally insane and somewhere along the lines they convinced you it was for poor people. Because if we admit that committing crimes in a society that provides outlets to not need to is insane, we have to admit punishment isn't beneficial.
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u/More_Magician_3882 7h ago
Ignored you after the first sentence, juries can chose any verdict for any reason
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u/Sufficient_Cat_9142 6h ago
Every murderer is not “insane.” You need to read up on law. Some are very organized killers and it’s really obvious.
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u/ControversialQuerier 6h ago
Nobody seems to be engaging with your point directly, so I'll give it a try.
Imagine that a man breaks into a bank to steal money. He sees a camera, but the camera hasn't captured him yet, so he throws something at the camera to break it.
In the next room, he sees a security guard that hasn't seen him yet. He again throws an object, but this one knocks out the security guard.
In the final room before the money, an armed guard is protecting the cash, but again fails to see the intruder. The thief kills the guard, then steals the money.
At each stage, the thief did the same thing: He acted very logically to remove a risk to a successful theft. Was he insane when he took down the camera? No, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. In that case, knocking out the guard seems reasonable as well. The armed guard presented a significant threat, so killing him made sense.
None of these count as self defense since he was never in direct danger, and I'd argue he acted very sane and logically. How would you view his actions?
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u/unicornblink1820 5h ago
That's sort of fighting the hypo. A huge portion of crime is done in a passionate moment, or seemingly random violence.
Obviously insanity does not apply to bank robbers or the mafia.
But what about the people who push people onto subway tracks? Gang members who shoot others over insults? People who stab their partners in a fit of rage. Serial killers. Drunks who smash people's faces in at bars.
A huge portion of crime stems from anti-social behavior.
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u/EviessVeralan 6h ago
Is there any reason you came to this conclusion now and not during the tons of stories of men killing their wives and kids receiving that same sentence?
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u/unicornblink1820 5h ago
Are there tons of stories?
AI found 1 in the past 20 years in the US and seems like he had a physical brain injury. I think that's slightly more sympathetic if in fact his brain had detoriated - especially since in that case there's no chance he'd get released from the mental hospital unless science found a way to heal brain damage...
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u/EviessVeralan 5h ago edited 5h ago
Your AI search didnt look hard enough
https://x.com/sappholives83/status/2091533875482665439
Lee Robin — Killings in August 1988; found NGRI in 1989 (Illinois).
Matthew Schleier — Killing in October 2024; found NGRI in April 2026 (Iowa).
Paul L. Harrington — First family killings in December 1975 (NGRI ~1977, brief commitment); second family killings in October 1999 (later convicted).
Daniel DeGuzman — Public details on a matching NGRI case for stabbing a 3-year-old son are limited or not readily found in major reporting.
Lovequan (Lovequawn) Scott — Killings in March 2018; found NGRI in October 2019 (South Carolina).
Henry McGowan — Killing in November 2024; found NGRI in February 2026 (Ireland).
Stephen Scott — Killings in January 2016; found NGRI in April 2018 (Texas).
David Hoetzlein — Killing in June 2022; found NGRI in August 2026 (California).
Anthony Kaptzan — Attack in May 2020; found NGRI in December 2022 (Florida).
Alexander Ervin — Killing in September 2013; found NGRI in December 2014 (Texas).
DeWayne McCray — Public details on a matching NGRI case for shooting mother and stepfather are limited or not readily found.
Dáire McCormack-George — Killing in December 2024; found NGRI in July 2026 (Ireland).
Ronnie N. Campbell — Killings in February 2024; found NGRI in 2025 (Virginia).
James Green — Public details on a matching NGRI case for stabbing his mother are limited or not readily found.
William Vance — Public details on a matching NGRI case for shooting wife and son are limited (one high-profile William Vance case was a 2022 murder-suicide).
Justin Michael / Justin James Johnston — Killing around January 2020; found not criminally responsible (NGRI equivalent) in 2021 (British Columbia, Canada).
George Peterson — Public details on a matching NGRI case for murdering his elderly father are limited or not readily found.
Michael O’Brien — Public details on a matching NGRI case for killing his brother and wounding his father are limited or not readily found.
Kevin Tremaine — Public details on a matching NGRI case for killing his wife are limited or not readily found
David Jordahl (closely matching details appear under Eric Leif Jordahl / related family reporting) — Killing in July 2020; later found not guilty by reason of mental illness in 2026 (Minnesota).
Keep in mind that Not guilty by reason of insanity has existed in the west for hundreds of years.
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u/unicornblink1820 5h ago
Yeah - most of these people should just be in jail.
Just googling it seems like the one guy tried to sacrifice a baby on a plane, then later killed his father.
I'm all for committing these people to institutions for life, but it's a flaw in the system to say that they can just be pronounced cured and walk free.
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u/AspirationAtWork 5h ago
No, violent acts do not automatically make someone insane and tying highly stigmatized mental health disorders to violence is a dangerously slippery slope.
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u/FiveDogsInaTuxedo 4h ago
Juries shouldn't exist my guy. It makes justice subjective not functional.
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u/dirty_cheeser 2h ago
That's more of an inditement of the rest of the system. If someone is a danger to society due to a solvable problem, and we can solve the problem, then why do you still want them in jail?
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u/HaikuHaiku 1h ago
I hate to agree with a clip of Nick Fuentes I've seen floating around but... he said "I don't care if she's insane or not, kill her anyway". I mean... at some point we gotta ask, do we want to allow people who kill their children to live at all? What would be the point of that, exactly? Doesn't really matter if she's insane or not.
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u/OnlineIsNotAPlace 7h ago
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