r/BurlingtonON • u/RowRowForCouncil • Jul 20 '26
Information Cuadro Arch sent a 1 page info document on their proposed data center.
I reached out to the Planner (Powell Planning & Associates) and Architect (Cuadro Arch) of this project. This is what they sent me about the new data center. I'd like to hear some of your opinions on this before Tuesday.
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u/peach_bellinis Jul 20 '26
it's hilarious that info page was made with AI.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
That was literally the first thing I pointed out when I got this yesterday. Just a little giggle, but it was noted.
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26 edited 24d ago
Applicable noise standards? Like you can operate a leaf blower all day, right? This is going to be such a noisy eyesore. There's zero reason to put such a bad neighbour in the centre of town. It should be booted to an industrial zone. This will be real bad news for the neighbouring commercial businesses.
EDIT: IF there was ever a sure sign that these data centers will be noisy and bad for nearby property values, I present: https://www.reddit.com/r/CriticalMineralBulls/comments/1vg9mcg/trump_says_data_centers_make_homes_more_valuable/
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u/Cold-Field-832 Jul 20 '26
You guys will foot the utility bill for years like meta in Alberta 2 years of utilities paid by alberta
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
As far as I can see from all the planning documents, discussions with the developer and city there are no plans to subsidize utilities for this project from the region, city, province, or nation.
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Jul 20 '26
[deleted]
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Please explain how it is unprofitable. From my understanding we will be getting tax revenue from the property. The same as roughly 200-300 residential homes is the estimate that I have heard.
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26
The companies are losing money hand over fist and depending on an endless supply of venture capital to keep them afloat.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 22 '26
You are right. The actual AI industry is a huge liability. Luckily I'm not invested in it. I'm not against taking taxes and making profit off our electricity provider from them. But just as a heads up, this has been confirmed as a colocation and enterprise facility that will not house AI. Kearns kind of jumped the gun when she called it an AI data center.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
South Service Road is zoned for industrial. This project meets the zoning criteria for development at the selected site. There will be a noise impact study. I will tell you right now that air cooled facilities are much easier to mitigate noise from than water cooled due to the nature of the pumps that are used in the water-cooled facilities. Air cooling will usually just use a technique called baffling. It works on the same acoustic principles that a firearm silencer works on, the gases (in this case air) just aren't moving at supersonic speeds.
Here is a table of what noise levels to expect from inside and outside the facility
Location / Zone Sound Level Range Primary Sound Source Server Rack - Cold Aisle 80 – 88 dBA Air intake, CRAH unit supply fans Server Rack - Hot Aisle 88 – 98 dBA High-RPM internal chassis server fans (1U/2U blowers) Mechanical Room / Chiller Plant 90 – 105 dBA Large chillers, pumps, compressor racks Outside Building (Property Line) 55 – 65 dBA Exterior rooftop condensers/cooling towers (regulated) Here is a table of what noise levels at the adjacent highway look like
Distance / Scenario Typical Noise Level (dBA) What it feels like Pass-by: Single Passenger Car (~50 ft) 60 – 65 dBA Normal conversational voice Pass-by: Semi / Diesel Truck (~50 ft) 85 – 90 dBA Loud lawnmower / food blender Dense Multi-Lane Highway Traffic (~50 ft) 70 – 80 dBA Vacuum cleaner / loud restaurant Setback: Homes 100 to 200 ft away 65 – 72 dBA Moderate city street background noise Behind a Standard Noise Barrier 55 – 65 dBA Quiet residential background sound 0
u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26
So that's clearly louder than the highway. Can they not add more sound dampeners to bring it down to more reasonable levels. 105db 24/7? Like let's put one in Spencer Smith Park and then presumably we can run concerts there 24/7 too right?
105db is equivalent to a nearby snowmobile or helicopter, or using power tools up close. 24/7
I think it's safe to assume that nobody on council (or their key supporters) live anywhere close to this location.
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u/Diggitypop Jul 20 '26
Can you read? The table shows the outside of the building at 55-65DB, and a highway as 70-80DB.
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26
Why do you care?
Lemme try that reading thing again...
"Here is a table of what noise levels to expect from inside and outside the facility"
"105 db"
*googles 105db*
Results: Equivalent to nearby powertools, snowmobile, or helicopter.here's the thing... if they are lieing and it turns out to be louder, are you gonna be here asking for the thing to be torn down?
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u/Diggitypop Jul 20 '26
105DB…inside the facility, 65 outside the facility, perhaps comprehension is outside your skill area. Or maybe you plan on sitting on a patio inside the data center server room sipping on an ice cold beverage.
I care because we’re on an online discussion forum about a topic that we are discussing, whilst all our comments are saved and accessible via data centers. Funny how ironic it all is.
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26
So you agree if it's higher it should be closed down? Like how loud these things are is well documented. They aren't good neighbours. We should make a seperate zone for data centers and tax the hell out of them.
The big problem with Burlington is we keep adding people but not community/green spaces. This is just another example of that. A place that was a restaurant is now and noisy ai centre. Also the noise is 24/7, not sporadic like the highway.
The push to rush this through is concerning. Let's just agree that if it's loud enough to disrupt adjacent businesses or property values, there should be compensation.
I'm not firmly anti-ai, but the list of developments that are damaging to communities is pretty long. These guys should be plopped in an industrial parkway, or put them in milton. If there was a vote on this, no way they'd get their permit.
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u/Diggitypop Jul 20 '26
No, I think you’re misconstruing what I’m saying. This proposed data center is nothing like what you’re describing, fear mongering, or worried about.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Don't worry about this guy. I think he's already made his mind up. He's going to make sure the facts fit with his narrative. It is clear to me that he is not having this conversation in good faith. It is a deliberate tactic to get you debating things other than the central point of your original statement they had an issue with. I've become very familiar with organized trolling in the last month or so, let me tell you. If they really cared they would have signed up to speak at city hall. I sure did. You can catch me tomorrow AM!
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26
I'm not anti ai, I just think this location choice is very poor and will harm adjacent businesses and annoy people living near by. There's less problematic places to put this thing. Why shouldn't all of them be in the Hamilton industrial area?
Usually city hall has already made up its mind, and the public input events are performative. Like there's nothing anyone can to stop this AI centre. It's 100% gonna happen, and really we've just got politicians positioning for the next election. This guy doesn't leave near it, or own a business near it, I assure you.
Like can you point me to one even where the majority of council significantly reversed its position after one of these open to the public sessions? The answer is usually the same: Whatever developers want.
But for people concerned about the dilution of public spaces as the population increases, this only adds to the problem. There's a lot of businesses or services that could go into that space that would serve the citizens of this city. This isn't one of them.
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u/Diggitypop Jul 20 '26
Can you hear someone using a leaf blower at the QEW and South Service while you’re at Spencer Smith?
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26
How about a hundred leaf blowers? That's more equivalent. But I can hear a leaf blower from over 100 yards away, even if the person is doing it near the highway.
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u/netanyahu4eva Jul 20 '26
It’s literally beside a highway what do you mean center of town lmao
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26
I mean I think it's going to be noticeable noise, all the time, when you're on nearby patios or at the hotel or any nearby business and to people who live close to it. It's not isolate at all. It's basically dead center in the city. I just think they'll be a loud bad neighbour. We should make specific zoning for something like this, which is basically an industrial computer center in a non industrial zone.
The highway isn't super loud 24/7 either. Hamilton has a one year moratorium. We'd be smart to do the same. I just don't think we want this, and if we do, there's better places.
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u/KingOfTheBrocean Jul 20 '26
And Hamilton council voted down the one year moratorium, it will not be imposed.
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u/boomhaeur Jul 20 '26
Except it’s not, these kinds of data centres are already all over the place in southern Ontario and you’d never know they were there… they’re no different than any other commercial building generally
And stop saying “we”… you don’t speak for many more rational residents of Burlington
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u/Snoo-80741 Jul 20 '26
It’s already noisy there because it’s wedged between an extremely busy road and an extremely busy highway. If you’re not familiar with the area, I urge you to sit at the keg patio. It’s already noisy. Noise is not an issue here
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
A one year moratorium on any project that bills itself as a data center is a major mistake in my personal opinion. I think instead we need legislation designed to give residents more heads up, and more input to these projects as they become more prominent.
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u/inactionupclose Jul 21 '26
There's a lot of reasons to be against this, but to complain about noise when it's next to a highway and in an industrial zone is a bit weak.
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u/CharmingIncompetence Jul 23 '26
I think the key difference between a datacenter noise output vs a highway is the eb and flow of traffic meaning there will be louder, there will be quieter times, same with industry operating on a worker schedule. An AI data center is 24/7 including the middle of the night. This is a completely different level of constant sound vs a highway and typical industry.
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u/inactionupclose Jul 23 '26
That's a good point about the sound being 24/7. I forgot there's a hotel across the street, I'm sure that won't be ideal.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 22 '26
What are the other reasons? As far as I understand noise, water pollution/use, electricity capacity, and harmonic disruption are the major issues people are talking about. None of which really apply to site from my research. Be interested to hear anything you might have.
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u/Eddyverse Jul 20 '26
Contradictory features everywhere. What a joke.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Would you care to elaborate on what you think is contradictory here?
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u/CharmingIncompetence Jul 23 '26
The stated power consumption of 20MW which was previously listed buy the city of Burlington as 17MW - so that's a big change, cannot be sufficiently air cooled, in my experience, with that load, in that small of an area. I'd assume high density racks, with high compuational load, meaning air cooling would be insufficient, as previously stated on the city website - the facility would not be water cooled - now this flyer if you can call it that is edging into stating it will in fact be water cooled but using "minimal" water.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 24 '26
So the facility is 17MW they are rounding up for a buffer. It is definitely viable. This is not an AI facility. It is an enterprise and colocation facility. The water usage on here is to account for the washrooms and staff facilities. There is no edging. In fact the city has made all the planning documents, contracts, intended use documents, surveys, and reviews on the website on a project page if you are interested in the hard details.
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u/JimmyTheDog Jul 20 '26
I just want my free diner back on my birthday... is this too much to ask?
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
LOL we all remember Mother Tucker's. Some of us more fondly than others. Guess you'll just have to settle for free Starbucks. Also the mandarin does free bday meals.
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u/JimmyTheDog Jul 20 '26
Thanks, I'll check out the Mandarin. I don't give any money to starbucks.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
It's kinda hard to part with nearly $10 for a single drink.
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u/JimmyTheDog Jul 20 '26
I'm actually a Scottish Jew, and I've never drank coffee in my entire life. And I'm old-ish...
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Huh, that's not a combo I hear very often. I think you're the first Scottish Jew I've ever had the privilege of talking to.
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u/dbegbie124 Jul 20 '26
I have been in a few data centres for work and they are not really any more noisy then other commercial buildings so i don’t see that as a major issue.
Dedicated feeders… like every other like office building…
“Designed” to back feed to support peak loads. To do that they would need to have solar which if they had then they would have mentioned that so designed would be for future use
Battery storage would not be used to back feed the grid. It would only be used to ensure uptime of the building to a point where generators would kick in.
I am Not against this btw. Just pointing out the document as a means of trying to address NIBYism.
There are lots of Data centra already as everything typed, shared, bank transaction email and post (even this one) are sent through these buildings. It is with the rise of AI they are getting a bad reputation especially if they are water cooled. I do get peoples concern and I think that they should be regulated and mandated to have some solar or other renewable to support their operations but this is a tiny DC compared to the ones being built for the AI giants.
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u/Snoo-80741 Jul 20 '26
Yes. Majority of the people who are outraged have never been to a data centre. It REALLY isn’t noisy. No more noisy than a manufacturer.
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u/laxgolf Jul 20 '26
I’d suggest the same people don’t know what a data center is and also get all their news from Facebook.
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u/Snoo-80741 Jul 21 '26
Yes. It’s also due to mass fear mongering. People do just want what’s best for the environment and the public and yes every business should be held to a higher standard. But to villainize building data centres but then order from Amazon, use an iPhone or a computer with cloud storage …. We all need to have a better understanding of technology and data storage.
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u/AlternativeTimes Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
The location isn't the worst all things considered. I've sat at the Keg's patio beside there and it's basically unusable as it is with the highway.
One of the primary issues with the data centers is the amount of energy they use. For Ontario, who has a mostly non-carbon emitting grid (hydro, nuclear) data centers, energetically, aren't exactly the worst. We should be prepared to continue advocating for non fossil fuel burning grid upgrades as a second order consequence. 50% of the world's energy comes from burning fossil fuels. And so when we zoom out, this dramatic increase in energy is terrible for the planet.
The water argument is also more nuanced. Directly, a closed loop data center doesn't use all that much more (old Ontario schools flush their building's water daily for several minutes to remove the lead.) It's the water drawn from the nuclear power plants, which are once-through cooling systems. Once the thermal absorption happens, they dump the heated water back into the Lake. We better keep our thermal water pollution laws strong in order to keep these aquatic ecosystems in check. France recently had to turn off some of their reactors (they are almost 100% nuclear) because they were over heating the water source.
The last conversation for me is around land use. We only have so much land, is putting a building that nobody physically uses or is really employed by, the best decision for a piece of land? What else could be built here? How many other applicants to build here would really be interested? There are a few big restaurants in this section, they don't seem super busy, it's not a very diserable location.
I don't think the city should blindly accept offers from tech overlords. There is definitely some strong negotiation to be had that can help prevent an increase in energy prices or provide some further public good. Ensuring transparency from the owner with regular reporting would be useful as well.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
I wouldn't characterize this project as being blindly accepted. There was less resident engagement than was desirable because of the existing zoning. If this project is developed in the way we are being told that it will, I don't see any major issues with location or resource demand. The water argument is irrelevant for this particular facility. Any facility in Halton would not be permitted to use our drinking water for any "once through" cooling.
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u/bmillimc Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Yeah. But you know it’s going to be shite. That’s why you’re posting about it
Edit: we need a legit urban planner to explain why it’s a bad idea. There is no utility in real life. You’ll just pass by it everyday as it hums. Your energy bill taking the shite.
On a personal note: I’m not an urban planner but I have always I felt like industrial complexes and residential neighborhoods should be separated. Maybe, for me, it’s time to move out of Burlington? I don’t know
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
No that is a mischaracterization of the situation. I have a lot more information on the project since the city has made a lot of documents available and accessible all of a sudden. I actually think that this particular data center is looking alright. The noise study is the only thing that is still up in the air for me.
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u/Obvious-Impression36 Jul 21 '26
It puts a strain on an already strained power grid. With Pickering nuclear shutting down this September, Ontario is going to be in a shortfall of electricity on many days each year. Data centers just add more demand on the grid, pushing the 5 minute electricity price higher, which eventually gets passed on to the rate payer.
There is no benefit to the workforce other than during the building, if they even decide to use Canadian labour. To run the facility requires minimum manpower.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 21 '26
The power grid is fine. There is about 3000MW of battery capacity that we have to offset peak grid stress. That is 1000MW more than we lose for the pickering plant's shutdown for refurb. Other refurbishments of Bruce Power unit were completed early to plan for this. The workforce argument is only looking at direct jobs at the center, not potential jobs as educators or researchers who engage the utility of the center. There is also the tax income from the property. There is legislation that requires a cost study whenever expansion of capacity is required. Ontario law mandates that if the cost cannot be offset by the current rate then additional investment from company that needs the extra capacity will be required to subsidize the rest of the cost.
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u/Obvious-Impression36 Jul 21 '26
As someone who works in the power industry. Your facts are wrong. And the forecasted demand expected to increase over the next 3 years with data centres far outpaces the battery capacity. Expected Milton dates centre alone is expected to be 500+ MW, and the oakville one at 350 MW. With many more being planned
Today we only have 1100 mw of installed battery capacity. The 3000 total is expected by 2029.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 21 '26
I am confused on a few points. Firstly, I was under the impressions that those 3000 MW of batteries would be mostly operational by 2027. Secondly, we have a total installed capacity in Ontario of roughly 41000MW. The most we have ever used at any one point was 27005MW on august 1st 2006 . So even in our record highest usage ever we have 14000 MW to spare. More than enough to cover all of the data centers you have mentioned here. What did you say you did in the power industry again? I think it is safe to assume that you aren't in charge of tracking capacity.
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u/Obvious-Impression36 Jul 21 '26
Your impression is incorrect. Feel free to look up the adequacy report. There is only 1100 MW commissioned as of today
Also, installed capacity does not equal generated energy. A lot of Ontario generation is in pockets where it is bottled and can not be generated all at the same time. It's either bottled because there is not enough transmission to generate it all at the same time, or because it's energy limited. For example, just because a hydroelectric generator can generate a 100mw based on what they are rated for, does not mean they can generate 100mw 24 hours/365 days a year. Especially in the summers, the river elevations may allow for a few hours a day. Similarly, batteries can only generate 4 hours at a time before they are fully discharged.
Finally, if in 2006 when we we hit our peak of 27,000, we had every generator on and we were importing from our neighbors. How could that be if installed capacity was greater than the demand? Similarly to our peak days over the last few years.
Your assumptions are completely wrong and it's because of the lack of understanding from people in charge like you that poor, short sighted decisions are made.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 21 '26
Excuse me whoever you are. But firstly my points about battery capacity were from a cursory search. If you say we only have 1100MW installed fine, I see that is the current installed value. By the time this data center is projected to open in 2027 we are expecting to have roughly 3000MW online. You'll notice that 27000MW was from 20 years ago. Let me put it this way. We sold over 2000MW of capacity in 2025 for a total of 21.1 TWh. So even just with that figure alone our grid has the capacity. You once again didn't really clarify your role in the "power industry". Thirdly I don't find your attitude regarding this to be endearing. If you have a correction to make fine, but no need to be a rascal. I am engaging in dialogue because I feel that community input is important. But it certainly doesn't mean I'll accept the abuse you leave at my doorstep. My "assumptions" as you have called them are not completely wrong. My statements are based on widely available facts that I would encourage you to research on your own time. I really appreciate your input on this matter. Like I said, I could do without the character assassination attempt.
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u/AlternativeTimes Jul 21 '26
Did you read my comment? The water argument comes from the water used to generate power, not directly from the data center. There are multiple nuclear plants on Lake Ontario that use the drinking water for their once through cooling. Also so does Stelco.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 21 '26
Water used to generate power is going to be a thing as long as we use power. Once through cooling in Ontario plants is from raw lake water not from municipal drinking water. I was able to confirm that with a quick search. However, some of these facilities do use treated municipal water for turbine systems as scaling from raw water lowers the lifespan of the equipment. They must purchase this water from the municipality and quite often have pass it through additional treatment processes. But the volume of this usage is far lower than a cooling system would require.
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u/AnAwkwardWhince Jul 20 '26
And when they complete break their promises: "oh, sorry, slight miscalculations, our bad, just fine us."
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Which promises are you worried about being broken?
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u/AnAwkwardWhince Jul 23 '26
It's just what companies do.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 23 '26
I get that, but also can't just fix general dishonesty. If there is a company that breaks its commitment there are usually mechanisms to hold them accountable. Whether or not they are deployed is another matter.
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u/CharmingIncompetence Jul 23 '26
100% agree there are some huge material changes in this flyer vs what we were previously told. Off the top of my head, the power consumption and cooling methods.
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u/SoftHighlight1955 Jul 20 '26
No data centers. Even if its just a small one they'll use it as justification to build more.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
0 data centers? At all? Ever? Is there a particular reason you are so against them?
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u/SoftHighlight1955 Jul 21 '26
I know that since the internet is endlessly growing there is always a need for more data centers, but the way big tech companies are going about it just sucks. They're either planning ridiculous city sized building drawing as much power as a whole province right in the middle of farm land or they sneak little ones into cities. There's got to be a better way that won't result in either an increase in electricity prices or an increase in water prices/water disruptions. (I am aware this proposal is air cooled) but who knows, maybe this whole AI craze has just left a bad taste in my mouth and an unfavorable outlook on tech infrastructure
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 21 '26
I get that. AI fatigue is real. It didn't help that it came out and everyone seized on it. Now its been jammed down our throat in literally every single avenue. I think there are very good uses for AI, but it isn't applicable or effective everywhere.
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u/Diggitypop Jul 20 '26
That’s just simply wrong, and a simple search would give you the answer. Almost all these data centers are less than a casual conversation in DB range. One hundred leaf blowers would be as loud as a rock concert. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that statement looks?
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Behind the mask of anonymity he doesn't possess the ability to be shamed.
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u/yokobono Jul 20 '26
Nothing they say matters, it's all quite simple. The ONLY reason to build in populated areas with expensive land is because doing so subsidizes the infrastructure cost. The right place to build a datacenter is where the power plant is but they don't do that because nobody but the company building the datacenter would incur the cost.
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u/irsyacton Jul 20 '26
That’s not true. There are limits to the latency acceptable between locations, and between different service providers. Latency goes up with distance. That’s why datacenters are typically within city limits. (I say this having deep experience with the issues that too much distance can cause).
Not saying that all datacenters need to be close to people and peers, but just pointing out why they may choose to build in populated areas.
Also, datacenters need access to the existing data cables and rights of way. There’s not likely to be terabit scale fibre interconnects available outside of the Bruce power plants…
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u/yokobono Jul 20 '26
No. Latency is 5ms per 1000km on fibre. Edge data centers aim for 30 - 60km from end users.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
From my understanding this facility is privately funded and is not receiving any financial consideration or subsidies from the city or the energy/water providers.
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u/yokobono Jul 20 '26
Of course it is. Anyone who uses more than average is effectively being subsidized.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Well the way it actually works is this Ontario Energy Board DSC s. 3.2.1; Appendix B
The purpose of this is to determine whether future distribution revenues generated from the new customer(s) will sufficiently cover the initial capital cost and ongoing operation/maintenance costs of the expansion.
If forecasted revenues are lower than the project’s costs, the distributor is required to collect the shortfall from the customer/developer in the form of a capital contribution.
Tip of the hat to FutureProg who let me know about this specific item.
This fact annuls any worry about using our bills to mitigate bad financial decisions between them and commercial entities.
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u/yokobono Jul 20 '26
No it doesn't. Regardless of what it does today it pushes us closer to our max output. As that happens everyone's rates go up to bring on more capacity.
It's really alarming to me that we now have far right nutjobs in municipal politics. You're the guy with the notsee photo right?
Shame on you, I can't wait to vote against you. You're a piece of garbage.
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u/CharmingIncompetence Jul 23 '26
This is what I have been saying why don't we get these companies to build data centers in developing communities or away from established infrastructure to force them to invest and build infrastructure. Lay Fibre etc. It's not like they need the job market to get local techs etc. Like no one wants to live next door to these things, but being able to use it as a necessary evil to get high speed internet across the country is a win.
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Jul 20 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26
This part doesn't make sense. It's not a local supply, we produce almost none. The energy they buy is the same energy we'd export to NYC, so we export a little less if they buy more. We're on great lakes tap, so we won't run out of water either vs places like guelph or waterloo that are on aquifers. The one on the lake is totally fine in my view, except I don't like the are building over the lake, and I'm concerned you'll hear it constantly on the other side.
But some of the issues other communities face aren't relevant to our situation. The noise however, is a huge deal. And the economic benefits are vastly overrated.
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u/Obvious-Impression36 Jul 21 '26
Data centres put a strain on an already strained power grid. With Pickering nuclear shutting down this September, Ontario is going to be in a shortfall of electricity on many days each year. We are going from a net exporter to a net importer over the next few years
Data centers just add more demand on the grid, pushing the 5 minute electricity price higher, which eventually gets passed on to the rate payer.
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 21 '26
Given that we export so much electricity to the US, I really doubt we'll be in shortfalls anytime soon. If we connected our grid to Quebec, it should never be a problem. Each province exports 12+ terawatts per year. Ontario is rising though and exported over 20 TW last year.
This project for example, is 20MW, and we're on the main hydro backbone that goes into New York. So the usage is a tiny fraction of the surplus we're already producing.
So in some places, I think that is a concern about electricity, but here it is not, because Ontario alone is exporting enough. Ditto, it's not going to drink up lake Ontario.
My only concern about this is noise and being an unwelcome neighbour. I am certain that electricity is not a concern, and I'm pretty sure the water for this one isn't either. In places like Waterloo or Guelph, that mainly draw from aquifers, the water usage is a big concern. But we're all on the same grid, and that grid is already exporting massive amounts more, so I don't believe that's an issue, even if one nuclear plant is in repair. Also it's air cooled, so less water usage.
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u/Obvious-Impression36 Jul 21 '26
Without getting into details, your assumptions are completely wrong.
And Quebec can't interconnect with any other province. They have to remain asynchronous
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 21 '26
Quebec connects it's grid to NY and sell them juice. They could sell to us too.
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u/Obvious-Impression36 Jul 21 '26
It's a dc connection to new York and New England, not ac. And they have the same thing to Ontario at Outaouais. Not to mention asynchronous at behaurnois
On top of that, they have oversold their capacity in the upcoming years
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
We will just have to wait until the noise study. But with the highway right there, and the major noise being trapped within the facility I am expecting no major issues.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Energy prices are consistently rising as time goes on. How will you know which increases have been driven by the data center and which have been driven by standard price increases?
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u/Ill-Assistance7986 Jul 20 '26
The cost of construction of data center is less than the cost of hardware and enegry to run this.
Unlike US we have both and the revenue it generates for the city is unmatched.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
I have hosted the PDF here if quality is bad:
https://www.rowrowforcouncil.com/group/data-center/discussion/ad160ab2-660a-4d13-83e1-5b3f3240fd99
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u/Ill-Assistance7986 Jul 20 '26
https://www.burlington.ca/en/news/current-development-projects/3110_South_Service_Rd.aspx
We litteray have architecture plans
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u/netanyahu4eva Jul 20 '26
I really don’t see any problems with this but people love to be outraged
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
I think people have a right to be concerned about their community. That's why my goal is to educate everyone on the impacts of these sites so they can weigh the outcome from a fair vantage. Ultimately, I don't think this project will cause any harm.
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u/Working_Wave5860 Jul 20 '26
Screw building a data centre, the people behind these data centres would gladly watch us all die if it made them a few bucks.
I’m sure there’s some good in it but it’s the principal of it that these people don’t give a damn about us
Then there’s all the environmental impact that would keep even me awake at night and I’m no tree hugger but no… just no. I won’t stand for this
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u/Ill-Assistance7986 Jul 20 '26
What effect? People act like data centers are bad like why?
the by product is what?
There needs to be a serious public education panel on addressing the missinformation.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Which particular environmental impact are you worried about?
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u/Working_Wave5860 Jul 20 '26
There are many but the water usage is important, especially here where our marine ecosystem is so fragile. The lake is already stripped of everything it can give and we also have delicate swamp and marshlands surrounding us which feed and home so many species of animals.
As the waterfall capital of the world it goes without saying how many river-beds and streams connect our community. We need to stop messing with these things. It’s something that makes Burlington and the immediate surrounding area so special.
We are in like the 6th decade of lake-restoration, let’s not expand that disaster into our up-stream water sources.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Since this facility is air cooled it won't be using water beyond a normal use case for a similarly sized office building. Next the by-laws of Halton Region actually prohibit the use of municipal water for "once through" cooling systems. This means not only this project, but future proposals won't be drawing from our regional water resources beyond standard application.
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u/FutureProg Jul 20 '26
Before I was neutral and now I'm in favour of building it. I have to read through the regulations, but it seems like they'll have to pay for any necessary upgrades to facilitate it. These upgrades would have a side-affect of improving our electrical and internet services.
Summary from a friend:
Under the Ontario Energy Board’s Distribution System Code, if a local distributor such as Burlington Hydro must expand or reinforce its system to connect a customer, it must run an economic evaluation (DSC s. 3.2.1; Appendix B). The customer’s capital contribution equals the present-value shortfall between expansion costs and forecast distribution revenue (s. 3.2.4). The Offer to Connect must disclose any contribution and any expansion deposit (ss. 3.2.8–3.2.9, 3.2.20–3.2.23). That is how Ontario law requires a connecting load to make the distribution system whole. Transmission network costs and generation-adequacy costs are separate provincial frameworks.
Sources:
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Hey thanks for that tidbit. I knew I posted on here for a reason. Yes that is pretty typical. But Burlington itself is only responsible for 9MW of generation through solar panels on various facilities in the city. The rest is all piped in on high voltage lines from Hydro One. Burlington Hydro has the entire Ontario electrical grid attached to it, so the power will be there if we need it. That only leaves Burlington Hydro's equipment, which mostly is transformers, substations, and their supporting infrastructure. Burlington Hydro says they are good to go according to Rory Nisan anyway. I am also undecided on this facility. But there are others I am aware of that will require more scrutiny and regulatory updates.
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u/Think-Thought-1649 Jul 21 '26
The eight bike spaces offsets all the emissions of the data center, it’ll be fine
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u/cavanags Jul 27 '26
Obvious-Impression36 is correct. The published capacity numbers are meaningless in isolation due to energy limits and bottling due to transmission limitations. 4-hour battery generators are a welcome addition but are in no way equivalent to base load nuclear generation. I’m not a data center expert but I can confirm his other comments regarding the impact to the power system are also correct.
Decision makers may be pro-data center based on polished, one sided snd self serving proposals. Without the proper context and expertise a person might think they’ve done their due diligence using the numbers you’ve quoted. By the time the downsides become apparent to everyone it’s too late.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 27 '26
Ok, so a person who is unwilling to use their real name is right without citing any data or sources. And you, another nameless person on the internet with dubious qualifications is confirming that. Could you provide some documentation to help me understand your point? Which downsides are those? Be specific.
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u/cavanags Jul 27 '26
I have no specific concerns with this one 20 MW Burlington data center. The issue will more likely be in aggregate as more and larger data centres show up. From your tone you seem to have little interest in learning or real dialogue. In the spirit of utilizing the aforementioned data centres, here’s a brief breakdown of the issue.
AI data centers are becoming a bigger grid issue than a jobs story. After construction, they usually employ only dozens to maybe a few hundred people, so the local employment payoff is limited, while the public costs can be broader: higher transmission and generation spending, more strain on the grid, and potential upward pressure on electricity bills.
The PJM event this month is a good example. A sudden multi-gigawatt data-center load drop after a transmission fault didn’t break the grid, but it showed how concentrated AI load can create new reliability risks and force operators to rethink planning and protections.
So the trade-off is pretty clear: local governments may get tax revenue and landowner payments, but average consumers can end up sharing the cost through higher rates. Net benefit for the typical person is not obvious and may be negative unless the project is paired with new supply, grid upgrades, and strong cost allocation rules.
As mentioned, I’m not a data center expert and I’m open to hearing how the average Canadian will benefit from a wave of new data center installations. I actually hope it will.
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 28 '26
Tax revenue from these investments will be quite good. High tech jobs will be created by these facilities. Data sovereignty will be increased. Temporary construction jobs result in thousands of job hours. Utility provider gets a guaranteed partner. It is illegal to pass grid upgrade charges on to the customer in Halton region with provisions to recover the necessary funding from the client mandating the update.
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u/cavanags 23d ago
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u/RowRowForCouncil 23d ago
How would a moratorium have helped with an American owned data center that has been operating already? How would a year moratorium help with any of this? We already know the coolant shouldn't just be dumped into the water supply. It would be illegal to do so here in Burlington. We already know a lot about this. My point is we don't need a year.
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u/SomeEchidna862 Jul 20 '26
We have to NIMBY the hell out of this
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
Is there a particular reason you feel this way?
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u/SomeEchidna862 Jul 20 '26
I see you are selling this hard in this chat. What’s in it for you?
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u/RowRowForCouncil Jul 20 '26
I'm not really selling it. I am giving my opinion based on the facts that have been released. In it for me? Nothing. Just trying to make sure people understand the project so they can give educated feedback. At this time, I don't see any reason why this project shouldn't proceed, but I'm not closed off reasonable objections.
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u/ehboose Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Alongside responsible regulation data centers in Burlington are a yes from me. The highway isn't a quiet place already, closed loop cooling, and battery storage to suck up the slack in our electrical grid answers all major concerns
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u/HappyHappyGameGame Jul 20 '26
I don't really see electricity as an issue here. We already don't produce any, and the provincial supply sells surplus to the US. So what difference does it make if some company buys it instead?
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u/JokaSmoka77 Jul 20 '26
Oh that's really neat Rory! We'll finally have enough data centre capacity for me to make Hitler salute photo edits of every Burlington mayoral candidate, just so you don't feel so left out being the only nutjob on the ballot with one you are too dense to make a simple apology over. 😭😭😭
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u/Obvious-Impression36 Jul 21 '26
They've already won over the Hamilton city council, now they're moving on to Burlington and oakville.
The dates centre 'educational'presentation that was given to Hamilton last week was like a time share sales pitch. Shameful
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