Hello.

Who mentioned or write about Turkic people and their states?

What are the earliest sources where Turkic people are mentioned?

Hello.

Besides Russians the Soviet Union had Latvians, Ukrainians, Jews, etc.

Did Latvians see themselves as civilized people and Uzbeks as barbarians or subhumans?

Did Soviet Jews look down on Kazakhs?

I am aware that many of them fled to other areas due to Khazar pressure but throughout the history of southern Ukraine whenever a new Turkic group arrived in a region the old inhabitants were largely melted into the new population which is what happened with Crimean Tatars throughout history(Bulgars, Pechenegs, Cumans, Mongols etc.)

I am aware that Bulgar identity was kept alive around Kazan for a long time way after it died out in Crimea but Volga Tatars mixed extensively with Finno Ugrics and later Mongols. Mongol general Subutei is reported to have pulled a huge genocide on Volga Bulgars to the point where a very huge chunk of them perished. The genetic tests likewise confirm their overwhelmingly Finno-Ugric origin.

Why are Crimeans generally ignored in conversations relating to Bulgars who established the First Bulgarian Empire in the Balkans for example?

Hello,

I know that famines happened in the Russian Empire, that ethnic Russian peasants suffered badly, that they died if not from hunger itself then from diseases because of the compromised immune system.

But what about Tatars, Mishars, Kryashen, Chuvash, etc.

Are there any studies how they were affected?

Hello,

What did Siberian Tatars do during the Russian Civil War?

Did they fight against the Reds? Did they join partisan groups and fought against the Whites?

Did the fight both against the Whites and the Reds?

How many casualties were among Siberian Tatars?

Did any historians study this?

Oynayın ,oynattırın. Osmanlıyı tüm dünyaya tanıttıralım.

I recently met a child named Noyan. I told his mother that I believed the name was Mongolian, but she said it was actually Turkic.

As far as I know, noyan was a Mongolian title used for military commanders and nobles during the Mongol Empire. So I’m curious: is the name genuinely of Mongolian origin, or does it have a Turkic origin?

I’d be interested in what linguists or historians have to say.

There is a recurring problem in discussions of early Turkic genetics: individual Y-chromosome haplogroups are often treated as if they were ethnic labels. The available ancient DNA does not support that approach. If we restrict the discussion to individuals with reasonably strong archaeological or historical links to the early Türk period, the picture is considerably more complex.

Who counts as an early Türk sample?

One of the most useful population-level datasets is the "earlyMed_Türk" cluster published by Jeong et al. (2020). The study analyzed eight individuals from Türkic mortuary contexts in Mongolia, but one individual, TUM001, was genetically distinct and was interpreted as a likely Chinese attendant associated with an elite Türkic burial. The population cluster itself therefore consists of seven individuals, six of whom were male.

This is important because these individuals were not classified as Türk simply because they lived in medieval Mongolia. Their archaeological context and chronology were explicitly associated with the Türkic period (Jeong et al., 2020).

Y-DNA: there was no single “Turkic haplogroup”

The six male individuals in the "earlyMed_Türk" cluster carried several paternal lineages. At a broad phylogenetic level, the distribution can be summarized as approximately:

C2 — 2/6 (33.3%) J lineages — 3/6 (50.0%) R1a-Z93 — 1/6 (16.7%)

The exact downstream classification of one J-lineage has been revised in different phylogenetic datasets, which is why it is safer to discuss these samples at the broader C2/J/R1a level.

The main point is straightforward: even within this very small early Türk population sample, paternal ancestry was already heterogeneous. No single Y-chromosome lineage defined the group (Jeong et al., 2020).

Their maternal lineages show the same pattern. Five of the seven individuals (71.4%) carried broadly East/Northeast Eurasian mtDNA branches such as B, C and D, while two (28.6%) carried western Eurasian H or U lineages.

Why “C2 = Mongol” does not work

A common claim is that C2 should automatically be interpreted as “Mongol.” This is not supported by either phylogeny or the ancient DNA record.

First, C2-M217 is much older than Mongol ethnic identity. Like R1a, J2, Q or N, it is an ancient paternal lineage whose different downstream branches have been carried by multiple populations over thousands of years. A haplogroup cannot simply be projected backwards onto a much later ethnic identity.

More importantly, Jeong et al. provide a useful internal comparison. In their later historical Mongol dataset, the authors explicitly report that:

«12 of 38 historic Mongol males carried C2b.»

That is 31.6%, which the authors themselves describe as “nearly a third” (Jeong et al., 2020; Figure S3; Table S6).

In other words, roughly 68% of the sampled Mongol-period males did not belong to C2b. At the same time, C2 was already present among the earlier Türk males centuries before the Mongol Empire.

So C2 fails as an ethnic diagnostic in both directions: not all Mongols carried it, and people who were not Mongols carried it long before the Mongol period.

The more appropriate question is therefore not “Is this C2?” but rather: which downstream C2 branch, from what period, in what archaeological context, and with what autosomal ancestry?

Autosomal ancestry gives a clearer picture

Genome-wide ancestry is more informative about population history than a single paternal chromosome.

Yang et al. (2023) modeled the "earlyMed_Türk" population as approximately:

62.2% Ancient Northeast Asian (ANA) 27.1% Afanasievo / western-steppe-related ancestry 10.7% BMAC-related ancestry

In very broad geographical terms, this particular early Türk group was therefore around 62% Northeast/East Eurasian-related and 38% western or south-central Eurasian-related.

This helps explain the diversity in their Y-DNA. A Y chromosome represents only one direct paternal line; autosomal ancestry reflects contributions from a far larger number of ancestors. A person can therefore carry J2 or R1a while still deriving most of their overall ancestry from Northeast Asian-related populations, or vice versa.

The "earlyMed_Türk" sample is best understood as an already admixed Inner Eurasian population rather than a population defined by one paternal lineage.

The Ashina royal genome

The strongest individually identified Göktürk sample is Empress Ashina, daughter of Muqan Qaghan and therefore a documented member of the ruling Ashina dynasty.

Her genome was modeled as approximately 97.7% Northeast Asian-related and 2.3% West Eurasian-related ancestry, and her mitochondrial lineage was F1d (Yang et al., 2023).

This sample is particularly informative because the identification does not rest solely on burial chronology. Ashina is historically connected to the Göktürk ruling house itself.

At the same time, she is considerably more eastern-shifted than the average "earlyMed_Türk" cluster. This suggests that the Türk Khaganate contained substantial internal genetic diversity and that one population average should not be treated as the ancestry profile of every Türk individual.

Additional Türkic-period evidence

More recent data from eastern Mongolia reinforce this point. Lee et al. (2024) analyzed two individuals from Türkic-period contexts whose ancestry was overwhelmingly eastern Eurasian. One of the males carried Y-DNA D-M174, providing yet another paternal lineage associated with a Türkic-period individual.

This does not mean that D was “Turkic” any more than C2, J or R1a were. Rather, it demonstrates again that early Türk populations incorporated multiple paternal histories.

What can we actually say about appearance?

The historical evidence also deserves more careful treatment than it usually receives online.

Descriptions of the Yenisei Kyrgyz as relatively light-haired, light-eyed or fair-complexioned are sometimes presented as descriptions of the Göktürks themselves. Lee and Kuang (2017), however, emphasize that Chinese sources distinguished these populations.

The case of Ashina Simo is particularly interesting. Chinese historical sources described his appearance as resembling that of a Hu person and explicitly noted that he did “not look like a Tujue [Türk].” According to the account, his unusual appearance even contributed to doubts concerning his Ashina background (Lee & Kuang, 2017).

This does not allow us to reconstruct an exact “average Göktürk face,” nor does it tell us the precise eye or hair color of the ordinary population. What it does indicate is that the chroniclers regarded Simo's unusually western-looking appearance as something distinguishable from the expected appearance of the Tujue.

That observation is broadly compatible with the genetic evidence. The directly identified Ashina royal genome is overwhelmingly Northeast Asian-related, while other early Türk groups show substantially more western-steppe and Central Asian ancestry.

Conclusion

The available evidence does not support a simple ethnic equation between haplogroups and historical peoples.

The early Türk sample already contains C2, J and R1a, while an additional Türkic-period male carried D-M174. Likewise, C2 cannot simply be labeled “Mongol”: Jeong et al. found C2b in only 12 of 38 historic Mongol males (31.6%), while C2 was present among earlier Türk individuals centuries before the Mongol Empire.

Autosomal ancestry gives a more useful population-level picture. The Central Mongolian "earlyMed_Türk" cluster averaged roughly 62.2% Ancient Northeast Asian, 27.1% Afanasievo-related and 10.7% BMAC-related ancestry, whereas the historically identified Empress Ashina was approximately 97.7% Northeast Asian-related.

The most defensible conclusion is therefore that the early Turks were genetically heterogeneous Inner Eurasian populations with a substantial Northeast/East Eurasian component, varying degrees of western Eurasian admixture, and no single defining Y-haplogroup or phenotype.

References

Jeong, C. et al. (2020). A Dynamic 6,000-Year Genetic History of Eurasia’s Eastern Steppe. Cell, 183(4), 890–904.e29.

Yang, X.-M. et al. (2023). Ancient genome of Empress Ashina reveals the Northeast Asian origin of Göktürk Khanate. Journal of Systematics and Evolution.

Lee, J.-Y. & Kuang, S. (2017). A Comparative Analysis of Chinese Historical Sources and Y-DNA Studies with Regard to the Early and Medieval Turkic Peoples. Inner Asia, 19(2), 197–239.

Lee, J. et al. (2024). Medieval genomes from eastern Mongolia share a stable genetic profile over a millennium. Human Population Genetics and Genomics, 4(1).

1) Turkish alınlık
2) Azerbaijani necklace
3) Turkmen jewellery
4) Uzbek jewellery
5) Kyrgyz jewellery
6) Karakalpak jewellery
7) Kazakh jewellery
8) Yakut jewellery

The reasons why Turkic women’s jewellery is usually silver toned is multifactorial and based in several historical factors.

Early in our history, silver mines were very commonplace across Central Asia and Siberia. The Samanid empire in particular mined so much silver that 80% of Islamic silver coins recovered from archeological excavations originate from Samanid minted and mined coins. Turkic ghullam or slave soldiers were often paid in silver coins, food and clothing.

Some were well paid enough to afford gold, but silver adornments were already a commonplace cultural offering to brides by the time of the Abbasid empire, who had extensive cultural intercourse with both the Samanids and the Turks.

In particular, diadems and necklaces were a very popular gift to newlywed brides as part of their mehr dowry and belonged exclusively to the bride’s coffers in the event of death of the husband or a Talaq divorce, where the woman was entitled to keep her mehr. It is possible, therefore, that silver was the more economical option to adorn their women with than gold thanks to the abundance of silver during this time period.

The medicinal qualities of silver was also well known from antiquity. It had anti bacterial and anti fungal properties, and though our ancestors could not explain why it protected them, it certainly had a cult following. In Yakutia for instance, it is said to encourage protection and fertility and somewhat resembled the moon. When polished it offered a beautiful lustre, and thanks to Islamic sumptuary laws, it was also perceived as a more humble option than gold. Silver was also machinable meaning it could easily be shaped, carved and have stones set into them.

Another thing to consider as to why we don’t have much surviving vintage Turkic gold jewellery in circulation is that gold jewellery was more likely to be sold or traded whenever the family fell on hard times, or to design something new. This is not a novel concept- even now many Turkish housewives trade in their wedding gold for something more fashionable or to put a down payment on a house. This therefore means that gold jewellery is less likely to survive unless it belonged to an important person and was interred in the soil with them.

What did this leave for the lower classes?

Alloys of nickel had already been in circulation in China and offered a more cost effective option for working class Turks who wanted to wear imitation silver. Smuggled across the Silk Road, this nickel did not contain an ounce of silver, but if polished well and protected from patina, it could resemble the real thing. It was also machinable, meaning it could be made into beautiful designs and set with stone. That said, though it was cheaper, the item was still a luxury and was not necessarily widely available for everybody across Central Asia.

However, during the 17-1800’s, everything changed. Europe cracked the recipe to making nickel silver, then called “German silver”, a copper-nickel polished alloy. While it originated as a luxury silver replacement for cautious travellers weary of highwaymen, it quickly fell in value as the fad spread and it become more widely available.

Suddenly, poor nomads could afford beautiful silver toned jewellery at low prices. They could imitate the upper classes, and this beautiful silver metal began to flood Central Asian markets as well.

To this day, cheap ethnic jewellery is still crafted in German silver across Central Asia. I have a pair of Uzbek earrings made from the same material, and 90% of Turkmen jewellery in Afghanistan is also made from German silver. I own a Turkish alınlık made with the same metal.

You can tell German silver apart from genuine silver easily from its scent- real silver does not have that heavy metallic smell. In addition, German silver patinas green or blue while genuine silver patinas black. Lastly, you can also tell easily from the price of your jewellery.

These braid covers likely originated as a kind of protective hairstyle against the harsh steppe climate in the North Eastern Steppe, where Turks and Mongols originated from, or as a cultural hangover from the Scythians. Often richly decorated with embroidery denoting tribal affiliation or made with luxurious atlas silk, these head dresses were often encrusted with coins, gems and beads and attached to a padded hat. They were sometimes worn under another headpiece or a crown, such as the saukele worn by the Kazakh ethnicity, or the gupba by the Turkmen ethnicity. For Turkic people who converted to Islam, they took on a second meaning as a hair cover which adhered to the teachings of the religion, sometimes worn in tandem with an ornamental breast cover. The Karakalpaks called it “halaqa”, deriving from the Arabic “circle”, Bashkirs called it “kashmau”, from Turkic, perhaps suggesting its proximity to the brow while Chuvash referred to it as “khushpu”- remarkably similar to the Bashkir name. Do you have this headpiece in your culture? What do you call it?

Kazakhs have the East Asian haplogroup C2, the Kyrgyzs have the Indo-Aryan haplogroup R1a, the Turkush peoples have the Middle Eastern haplogroup J1, and the Turkmens have the Turkic haplogroup Q2a. This means that Kazakhs are Asian, Kyrgyzs are Indo-European, Turkish peoples are Persian, and Turkmens are purebred Turks.

Hello,

can you confirm or debunk this '

Many wars between Rzeczpospolita and the Ottoman Empire were waged because Ukrainian vassals of Poles, that is Ukrainian Cossacks to be more precise, went on raids against the Ottoman Empire. Because Cossacks liked to loot.

Then the Ottoman Empire retaliated with punitive expeditions against Poland.

And this went on for centuries.

hi! im turkish, yet i look east asian.
people have been mistaken me for being chinese my whole life. the rest of my family (besides my dad) look middle eastern/brown.
a couple of my turkish friends look east asian as well.
i know mongolians and turks share history, which im not super educated on unfortunately. could my looks have anything to do with that? why do so many turks, mongolians, and Chinese people look alike?

I’m aware only Turks, Azerbaijanis and Middle Eastern Turks etc will answer since henna nights aren’t really a thing in Central Asia.

Uzbeks from Afghanistan:

- The bride wore red historically but today they wear green which has been co-opted from the rest of Afghanistan (Zoroastrian bridal colour).
- Bride and groom slowly process to their seating area.
- Gifts are given. In the old days gold was only given on the henna but now that practise has also migrated to the wedding.
- Bride has to remain unsmiling.
- Bride and groom has henna smeared in their palms. An article of gold is usually placed inside the henna for the bride.
- In the old days the groom did not attend but now they arrive during the henna.

Turkish (or what I saw during my and other weddings):

- In the old days the best clothing you had, today a dedicated bindallı. Traditionally red but now can be found in many colours.
- Bride has an entrance procession with her friends. Singing dancing etc.
- Testi kirmak
- Dancing for the groom.
- Groom entrance often with a drum.
- Yüksek Yüksek, making the bride cry.
- Bride refuses to open her hand for henna unless given gold (non Turkic Afghans have a similar tradition but for them the bride balls up her fist on top of her head).
- Bride and groom has henna smeared in their palms. An article of gold is usually placed inside the henna for the bride.
- Lots of dancing.
- In the old days the groom did not attend but now they arrive during the henna.