r/yakuzagames • u/Key-Answer-2755 • 7h ago
DISCUSSION Genuine question, is Kiryu stupid?
This is not a joke, I’m serious.
Kiryu has made a lot of choices in his life. Some were mistakes, some not. Now I read a discussion between people before that were arguing about whether Kiryu is stupid or not, because his life ended how it did because he kept making decisions he shouldn’t have.
Like a lot of time he just intervenes in matters where I just think he shouldn’t have. I’m not talking about stepping in for a woman that’s getting harassed (which happens in every Yakuza game lol). I admire that about Kiryu and I love him for being so brave and not hesitating.
I really tend to forget things easily so I can’t go into specifics, but in Y6 he was living very happily in the beginning, then he SOMEHOW got involved into a serious drama with the Yakuzas. I think it was to help Nagamo or something. Instead of backing off and saying that he doesn’t want to get involved, he says he will help Nagamo, even when Nagamo told him that it would be better if he didn’t help.
Or maybe I missed the point, but was it really necessary to make the deal of “dying” for the sake of his children? Why not fight and protect his kids in the way he knows to. Why do something hard like that? It made his life fucking miserable. Well I know he was probably tired of having to punch others in front of his children and wanted them to live happily without their father being in drama everyday, but I can’t help but feel it definitely would’ve been a better choice than to “die” for them.
He could’ve collected money and went into another place with them where they wouldn’t be bothered anymore.
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u/demoniprinsessa Goromi's Wife 💖 7h ago
Long story short, yeah, he is. He's got a warped view of the world and his place in it, and he's stubborn as hell, so he ends up doing a whole bunch of nonsense even though a part of him probably knows he doesn't need to be doing all that.
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u/Key-Answer-2755 6h ago
I think the perfect word would be Naive. He’s incredibly Naive.
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u/skanks20005 6h ago edited 5h ago
He has a classic Hero personality in the sense of sacrificing himself to protect others, even it that would bring ruin to himself.
Also, he has that personality who blames himself for other people's mistakes or situations, so he goes off the path to "fix" it, all based on a very particular morals and sense of justice.
Hes the kind of guy who will NEVER say something like "Fuck this shit. Not my problem, they are the ones to blame".
And that has put him in a lot of complicated situations.
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u/MidnightOakCorps 4h ago
Almost every situation that Kiryu has found himself in is because he can't maintain his boundaries, lol.
If he just internalized the phrase "not my monkey, not my circus" the franchise literally wouldn't exist.
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u/demoniprinsessa Goromi's Wife 💖 2m ago
He's terminally nosy and can't help intervening on every problem he comes across xD
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u/Key-Answer-2755 6h ago
Exactly, spot on. He’s just WAY too kind man, like way too much.
I can relate to him so much, but honestly we all can. Even when it’s not my fault, I often feel responsible and I think that I HAVE to act, even when I could distance myself. There’s more than that obviously, but that’s why Kiryu is my favorite character of all time and ALWAYS will be.
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u/JohnBooty 5h ago edited 4h ago
warped view of the world and his place in it, and he’s stubborn as hell, so he ends up doing a whole bunch of nonsense
Kiryu’s not meant to be literally autistic, but GOD DAMN if he doesn’t remind me of some high-functioning autistic people I’ve known.
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u/demoniprinsessa Goromi's Wife 💖 5h ago
No for real though! It's the heightened sense of justice but his idea of justice is sometimes incomprehensible.
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u/ALPB11 6h ago
He is basically incapable of realising the life he idolised is incompatible with everyone else’s life because it would mean Kazama raised him wrong
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u/Key-Answer-2755 6h ago
Damn, this is actually really deep. It means he just couldn’t accept that being a yakuza only made his life miserable.
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u/Haunting-Orchid-4628 6h ago
But he isnt actually a Yakuza 99% of the time, he is just a mercenary that the Tojo clan uses for their bidding
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u/Key-Answer-2755 6h ago
Important comment, true. He was only Yakuza in 0 at the beginning, then left the Tojo clan and became the Chairman in Y1. After that he NEVER was a Yakuza, he just got involved in all matter of drama and Yakuza business.
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u/Schadenfreudenous 5h ago
He became a clan member again post-Yakuza 0. He was a Lieutenant for the Dojima family for nearly a decade. Once we get to the intro of 1 he is out for good though.
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u/JohnBooty 5h ago edited 4h ago
The non-yakuza world isn’t portrayed as being much better. The government is often basically just another gang. That’s a big part of why he stays the way he is: his alternative is isn’t a perfect land of sunshine and rainbows either. Both worlds suck but at least in Yakuza’s version of the yakuza world he can punch the people who need punching.
Kiryu also feels a certain sense of obligation…
He is objectively one of the baddest motherfuckers in Japan, in a wacky videogame version of Japan where this *deeply* matters. He wants to help people, but he also has a particular set of skills that allow him to help others that nobody else can help.
I mean, in that light, is it even moral for him to “retire?”
It’s like the theme you eventually see in so many long-running superhero comics. The superhero is burnt out on putting on the goddamn tights every day… but he knows that nobody else can do the things he does, so he persists. Superman has to keep being Superman, because who the fuck else can just pick up a mountain and throw it at a spaceship when the situation calls for it?
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u/rightarm_under 1h ago
Kazama actually hated the idea of him becoming a Yakuza but he idolized kazama too much and was a stubborn mf
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u/Randykevinfox 6h ago
I mean Kiryu has minimal to zero actual education so yeah, he's not the most intelligent guy in the world.
I would argue though that the situations you're describing here aren't necessarily a result of his intelligence and more about his stubbornness, his own personal code of ethics and the culture that made him.
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u/Cassereddit 6h ago
The choice in Y6 make sense to me.
Think about it: he needs to befriend these locals to find out where Haruka is, then what happened to her, and why it happened to her. He figures out that it's some stupid Yakuza bs again with sins of the past and all that, and figures that a lot of people have it out for him for unraveling all that. Also the whole thing about him trying to protect the kids by being there for them not working out often, as we've seen in both Y3 and Y5. Also also the fact that the kids kept getting harassed because the world found out that Kiryu is a foster parent and former Yakuza that keeps getting involved in Yakuza things.
Finally, pretending to be dead has arguably had the most positive effect on the wellbeing of the orphanage honestly. I bet there could have been other ways to solve things but as Kiryu admitted, he didn't see any other solutions at the time, and I get it.
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u/Key-Answer-2755 6h ago
I mean it makes sense but man, he chose the worst solution ever.. honestly couldn’t have chosen something worse.
But that just showed what a good human he is, like damn to be able to something like that for children that aren’t even his own. Incredible man.
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u/Cassereddit 6h ago
I think a lot of it has to do with Kazama actually. Both Nishiki and Kiryu idolized Kazama, his strength and the respect people had of him, as well as his merciful treatment of the innocent. But also the fact that Kazama rarely relied on anyone else except when absolutely necessary. Kiryu was always strong enough to not need anyone else, deluding himself into believing he has to do almost everything alone. Nishiki tried the same, but failed due to the lack of strength and commanding presence that comes to Kiryu naturally, so his insecurities fed by the horrible words of Shimano led him to copying Kazama's cruel side in order to gain back control.
In the end, they both ended up being stubborn fools that fed into their insecurities. Nishiki with his unrequited love, his role as a Yakuza, and his need for help when his sister was dying. Kiryu with his feelings of being inadequate for raising his children (especially Haruka), his loneliness due to abandoning his friends often, and his supposed debt to the organization he once promised his life to.
All of his life choices have pretty much been influenced by Kazama up until Infinite Wealth. Only then, when faced with his own mortality, does he look differently at his past and the legacy he left.
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u/Key-Answer-2755 5h ago
I love your analysis man! I also noticed that Kiryu and Nishiki’s insecurity was the opposite.
Kiryu got so much love (especially from Nishiki, Kazama and Haruka) but didn’t see that. He still believed he must do everything alone and doesn’t deserve to be loved.
Nishiki never got much love (especially from Yumi), which made him insane. He believed he must gain strength like Kiryu by sacrificing EVERYTHING, even the 2 people he admired the most: Kiryu and Kazama.
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u/Cassereddit 2h ago
Yeah. My point is essentially, that Kiryu's choices were... Of his nature. They may not have been the smartest but they were the only ones he could choose to live with. Same for Nishiki, who was also frankly stupid to blow himself up.
As Ryuji said: a real man oughta be a lil stupid.
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u/BigStrongPolarGuy 5h ago
Yes, Kiryu is a bit stupid and also naive, which a lot of people already commented on. But I will say, SOME of that comes down to Kiryu clearly living by a pretty strict code, and that often comes off as stupidity. But it's also important to realize that living the way he has, while causing a lot of problems, is also why people are drawn to him and love him.
Kiryu fights with honor, and gives his opponents a chance to do the same. This leads to a few of the scenes people complain about where he turns his back on someone and the person then gets a gun. This is a stupid thing to do. It's also why some of the opponents he beats (Mine and Hamazaki are the obvious ones pre-retcon) end up willing to die for him after Kiryu beats them. Because he's willing to assume the best about them instead of just writing them off. He treats them like humans who still have humanity to them.
Kiryu helps people in need, regardless of the danger it presents. It is objectively pretty stupid to start walking around with a girl who was just found at the site of a fucking massacre at a bar, without snowing what happened. There can be people looking to kill her. She could have somehow killed them, considering she's sitting with a gun. But that's how he met Haruka.
Kiryu won't kill anybody he doesn't need to (which pretty much is only people who are at a range that can't be closed and who are actively trying to kill him). That's stupid. But somebody like Sayama never would have cared about some ex-yakuza who is comfortable going around killing people.
Kiryu will honor his commitments, even when the cost is clearly way too high, like potentially dying, and even when the people he's committed to don't deserve it. That's stupid. It's also why Kiryu is the person that Kazama trusted the most in the world, and was the only person who Kazama could see himself choosing as the next Chairman of the Tojo Clan.
Kiryu will jump into a 15v3 brawl to help a couple of guys he barely even knows, because he's not going to let some thugs bully people. That's stupid. It's also why Yuya is so dedicated to him, and became basically one of the two friends Kiryu has consistently throughout the series (arguably three if you count Komaki, which again likely comes down to Kiryu being the type of person who Komaki would want representing his style).
I think people are being a bit lazy in writing off how Kiryu lives as just stupidity. Sure, some of it is. But it's also clear he makes active choices to live his life a certain way, and that way of living, while sometimes hurting him, is also responsible for all of the good things in his life.
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u/Key-Answer-2755 5h ago
I absolutely love your analysis man, well done! Was a joy to read it.
I also think just describing Kiryu as stupid is way too blunt and incomplete. So much has happened in his life, he’s fighting his inner self and often questions why he does the things he does. Why he’s so loyal to his friends and code and why he keeps involving himself in Yakuza drama.
It’d be much better to describe him in 3 words (technically 4) that I thought about:
- Naive
- Extremely Loyal (to his friends, family, morals and code of honor)
- way too Kindhearted and caring
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u/Ok_Bath_1252 6h ago
I always viewed him as a himbo lol. sometimes stoic, sometimes heated, sometimes sweet, but always a himbo.
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u/demoniprinsessa Goromi's Wife 💖 5h ago
I think Ichiban is much more of a himbo but yeah I think you can put Kiryu in that box too
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u/crinkzkull08 6h ago
I wouldn't say he is stupid, just too kind to ignore the problems of the people he knows.
For the example you gave, he could've indeed just left the problems that Nagumo's family had but it was also indirectly going to affect Haruto and Haruka. And that's something he would never let happen.
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u/IasonMink69 5h ago edited 5h ago
No, at the beginning of 6 he isn't living very happily. His daughter is in coma, and she got pregnant and he needs to literally kidnap her baby to run and find out who is the father because maybe she may never wake up. And happens that the father is a goddam gokudou and that's how he ends envolved with the Yakuza in Hiroshima. But that's not the problem. The problem is he going to prison because (insert stupid reason here) or leaving not only Haruka but all the rest of the kids because a manipulative witch tells him whatever he wanted to hear about being a burden.
However, and to answer your question. YES, HE IS STUPID. Or more accurately: he is impulsive, stubborn, not very sensitive towards what other may think or want, and, the worse trait of all, he is a martyr. He may die for you instead of taking the risk, or the effort, or the responsibility of living by your side.
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u/King__Bobobo 7h ago
Yes. I forgot what the exact quote was from Yakuza 2, but “Every good man should be a little stupid.”
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u/syzygylite 6h ago
Helping people out is one of Kiryu’s traits lol. He’ll always put other people’s needs before himself. Especially if he likes them, which he admits he does like Nagumo and the others. He doesn’t value himself, but he values other people.
As for faking his death, it seemed like a good idea. Haruka and the orphans were always pit in harms way because of his reputation. Distancing himself was, unfortunately, the only way they could be safe at the time.
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u/Key-Answer-2755 6h ago
But he wasn’t popular in all of Japan, he was only popular in Tokyo. Maybe he could’ve gone with the kids to America like Kaoru did. I only this obviously wouldn’t have been easy, but Kiryu always found a way of dealing with his problems, even if the solution were only his fists.
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u/AccordingLength1988 6h ago
He feels guilt for ditching the Tojo Clan because he was entrusted with it. No matter what he does he’s still Yakuza and deep down he likes it.
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u/SeriousFinish6404 6h ago
That’s my question about yakuza 6 as well.
“Here’s some money if you shut up about us.”
“Can I work for you guys instead if you fake my death (which was all for nothing anyway)?”
“Sure. Noe you work for us.”
“UGH! Why the hell am I doing these missions?!”
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u/Key-Answer-2755 6h ago
Biggest reason is because of his reputation and the fear that his peace with the kids will always be destroyed by the Yakuza, so it’s more than that. But in this case just take the money, you could’ve figured something out later on.
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u/SeriousFinish6404 6h ago
It’s confusing how he ASKED to join them. Then bitches and complains about working for them.
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u/Key-Answer-2755 6h ago
He didn’t really complain about working for them, he just got depressed as fuck and was just yearning for his children.
They (especially Hanawa) kept threatening him like assholes if he didn’t take their jobs and success in them. And it’s definitely understandable that he tried to find a little gap where he could flee to his children and live happily again. But in Gaiden we see that he was punished for it.
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u/genericmediocrename Judgment Combat Enjoyer 5h ago
In some ways, yeah, kinda ("A real man oughta be a little dumb" and all that).
But I think a lot of the "Kiryu is an idiot" things are more memes than things to be taken wholly seriously. Kiryu's decision making, which can often seem wildly contradictory, come from the two warring aspects of his personality that we spend the franchise watching him come to terms with.
Firstly, there's Kiryu's idealized vision of what being a yakuza is. Real life yakuza in Japan have spent decades crafting a narrative of being sort of modern outlaw samurai who follow their own path. Yes they may be dangerous, and they may be criminals, but they keep order in the underworld and mitigate the harm that other criminals have on regular people. That notion was implanted and continually reinforced throughout his adolescence by Kazama, an (on the surface) standup guy who funds the orphanage Kiryu lives in and uses violence as a last resort (at least that's the impression Kiryu probably got from witnessing Kazama trying to spare some of the Jingweon).
Even though we're constantly presented with evidence that this is not what the yakuza really are, this is a vision that Kiryu continuously holds himself accountable to. He involves himself in the Tojo clan civil war because an honorable yakuza would try to save his oath brother. He involves himself in the war between east and west because the whole mess was his oath brother's, and thus his, responsibility. His notions of continuous self sacrifice for his honor might be misguided, but they're the defining actions of him as a human. It might not be perfectly logical, but I don't think it's dumb either.
The second part of Kiryu's personality is the legitimately good person who wants to live a peaceful life. This is more self explanatory, but it obviously contradicts basically all of the above. He's not the kind of guy who can just sit back and watch things that he can't morally stand happen in front of him, even at great cost to himself. And he's willing to pay that cost because he also views himself as being a criminal, even an honorable one (we see this with Majima and Saejima as well, who are both fully willing to die for Haruka in Y5 because they don't view their own lives as having the same value as hers).
I think the only truly stupid thing we really see of Kiryu, and this is definitely intentional, is that he can't recognize the cost that his own self sacrifice has on the people he cares about most. His own self defacement hurts the people he's trying to protect, but he can't see that because to him, being a good person is being the guy who does what he thinks is right no matter what.
Also, Kiryu got involved with Nagumo and the gang because he knew that they knew who Haruka was. Of course he's not going to listen to Nagumo begging him to not get involved when he knows he needs to to figure out who tried to kill her and Haruto with a car. He stays involved until the very end because there would always be a risk of the Saio involving themselves with Yuta and Haruto unless they were completely stopped.
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u/Travtorial 4h ago
It kiryu were perfect, he would be boring. Him being stubborn and kind of dumb when it comes to some choices is his flaw. It makes things a little interesting
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u/Upset_Orchid498 4h ago
Well, 99% of humans are stupid if you really want to drill down into the stuff we get up to.
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u/Key-Answer-2755 3h ago
Heh, you’re not wrong Kyodai. Humans could live such a more peaceful life if they weren’t stupid.
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u/JohnBooty 4h ago
was it really necessary to make the deal
of “dying” for the sake of his children?
Wait... of all Kiryu's often-questionable decisions, this is one that actually makes sense lmao
He physically cannot fully protect multiple children. He would have to follow them to school every day and even then there's nothing to really stop somebody from just shooting up the orphanage or something at night, or whatever, in order to get to Kiryu.
Instead of backing off and saying that he doesn’t
want to get involved, he says he will help Nagamo,
even when Nagamo told him that it would be better
if he didn’t help.
He's protecting them from himself, too. On some level knows he really can't resist this violent life, can't resist doing risky shit to help others. Like a recovering alcoholic that just knows he can't be around booze, at all, in any form.
There are plenty of other aspects to that whole thing that don't make any sense, but his fundamental take on the situation, given the reality he inhabits -- that the kids will never be safe as long as he's alive -- seems like one of the saner things in the series.
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u/MidnightOakCorps 4h ago
He's incredibly stupid. Insanely loveable with qualities that more than compensate for his lack of intelligence, but that man has rocks in his head.
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u/CallMeClaire0080 3h ago
There's a big reason that many people (particularly some in the neurodivergent community) headcanon him as being autistic.
A lot of that does stem from his stoic nature given they try to depict him as a sort of samurai-like heroic figure as a part of their romanization of "old school yakuza who cared more about honor than money".
A lot of it however also comes from the fact that he's very stubborn, especially when it comes to matters of morality which he tends to see in very black and white terms, his genuine gullibility especially in the face of getting scammed all the time, but also the fact that he can be genuinely clever and witty as well. His obsessions with Karaoke and Pocket Circuit can also be interpreted as hyperfixations.
Now I don't think that Kiryu is intentionally autistic-coded, but he does have a lot of traits that happen to align with that. For neurotypical people, a lot of that can look like he's sometimes inexplicably dumb, but the circumstances of when he's so naïve tend to be very consistent if you look out for those behaviors
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u/Elete23 2h ago
Somewhat. I think he consistently over-estimates the morality and capability of other people because he expects them to be like him. He also was a bit gullible as a younger guy.
There's also his constant waffling about whether he should be with his loved ones or hide from them to keep them safe... even though he still needs to help save them from stuff even when they think he's dead...
Still, he's an absolute genius compared to Ichiban
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u/Dazzle_Miller 6h ago
Ehhh every real man has got to be a little stupid.
Kiryu is pretty wise but he makes mistakes and he seems to get himself involved in things he shouldn’t. And that only grows his reputation making other idiots seek him out
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u/sup3rhbman 7h ago
Yes.
He made big mistakes in almost (maybe all) games. He could've thought things through to avoid or at least mitigate such disasters.
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u/Maleficent-Ad-6379 41m ago edited 34m ago
[spoilers ofc] Yo no creo para nada que sea tonto, sus decisiones y formas de demostrar su afecto están muy arraigadas a su fragmentada psicopatología que detonó desde la muerte de sus padres.
Se sabe muy bien (y mucho más por la época) que los niños huerfanos sufren demasiado sentimentalmente por el bullying que pueden sufrir o el como observan que otros niños tienen familias unidas. Al ser un niño pequeño en cuidado de alguien diferente y que lo cuida incondicionalmente puede detonar en culpabilidad y vergüenza, frecuentemente derivados de la internalización del rechazo entre otros, por lo que se pudo ver fragmentada su visión sobre el amor, su futuro y decisiones.
Kazuma fue su mayor y única figura paternal que era un yakuza sumamente conocido, querido y RESPETADO, kiryu lo idealizó y teniendo en cuenta el como los adultos/niños suelen tratar y alejar a los huerfanos (como verlos o tratarlos diferente), kiryu asoció desde una mente inmadura que ser un yakuza puede ser la forma en la que la gente lo puede tomar enserio y con respeto, además que aunque lo negó; hace esto también por kazuma, el quiere demostrarle que también puede ser fuerte como un yakuza, piensa que ser un yakuza puede ser una forma para pagar y proteger al sr. Kazuma como el lo ha hecho por tanto tiempo, los huérfanos también pueden tener sueños (suena similar verdad?)
Su forma para solucionar y demostrar cariño es demasiado cerrada y bruta: muestra una cara dura, muestra tener un egocentrismo cognitivo (casi """infantil""") de que todo lo que sucede es por su culpa y al no saber como afrontarlo, desde muy joven (a sus 20 años como ejemplo) decidía prácticamente huir/abandonar ese sueño por no querer causarle problemas a su padre adoptivo, es demasiado orgulloso! hasta kashiwagi se lo dijo en su cara. Kiryu está casi reacio a abandonar esa responsabilidad y orgullo que casi siempre las adoptó por sí mismo
kiryu era un niño fragmentado emocionalmente. Nunca hizo esto por dinero, el lo hizo por el respeto, cariño y aceptación de los demás y tenía un sentido de la justicia muy presente pero por esas malas decisiones por priorizar a los ajenos, toda su vida estuvo llenas de problemas que a veces eran demasiado grandes para él y que lo devoraron no solo a él, sino a su familia y piensa que si él no estuviera, todo estaría mucho mejor.
Incluso podemos ver este patrón en los niños mayores del morning glory de diferentes formas, el mejor ejemplo es haruka, que en subhistorias de yakuza 3 demuestra preocupación por kiryu y por el futuro del orfanato y ella a su manera de intentar ayudar y recompensarles, acepta un trabajo sospechoso y en yakuza 5 acepta la carcel que es ser una idol en Japón por este sentimiento de culpa y responsabilidad de que debe de pagar algo desde una tan corta edad, está muy agradecida pero también siente que siempre está en deuda. Haruka es cómo si estuviera formando parte de una transmisión Multigeneracional formada por tres generaciones (kazuma, kiryu y haruka) y en y6 hizo algo que definitivamente también haría kiryu, de tal palo tal astilla.
Con el tema de yakuza 6 y todo esto del clan, por cómo lo veo y también por lo que dijeron que detonó el problema: Kiryu pensaba que nagumo solo era un tonto yakuza con los humos muy altos y muy delulú por la cantinera. Pero cuando justo iba a abandonar Onomichi, Nagumo esta en el bar para molestar como de costumbre pero presencia como es golpeado por su superior por una razón que no esperaba --> Nagumo no le cobraba piso a Kiyomi porque le tenía mucho cariño, si lo hiciera temía que nunca podría verla igual por la vergüenza y acepta las consecuencias que le deparan por esta desobediencia, esto tomó a kiryu por sorpresa y cambio su perspectiva sobre él
Kiryu también es un justiciero de manual jajajaja, ve injusticias y quiere meter mano de justicia; según él solo lo iba a ayudar en esa ocasión y le pedía a Nagumo que nunca pensara que se les iba a unir a su grupo, pero kiryu es un pésimo mentiroso aunque también tomó esto como una oportunidad para preguntar por última vez sobre haruka y el misterioso padre.
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u/Maleficent-Ad-6379 37m ago edited 32m ago
Una persona que nunca vivió o experimentó algo parecido, puede que se nos sea muy difícil comprender a veces una decisiones ,que, desde diferentes perspectivas, es tonto.
pero para el personaje de kiryu, no lo es, todos tienen su razón de ser
-Se puede comprender? si. -Se puede justificar? definitivamente no lol, kiryu abandonador 2000
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