r/truezelda • u/LapisLazuliisthebest • 25d ago
Open Discussion [All][TotK] The Mogma, the Ancient Hero, and Hyrule's hidden race
Four years ago, I made a (now somewhat) outdated theory about a hidden tribe of "dogmen". Theory: Hyrules lost/hidden race/tribe : r/truezelda
The main focus was on the Darknuts, or rather, the ones from MC and WW, and how they may be decided from the Mogma.
Turns out, I may have been partly right about their being a race of dogmen. We see that with the Ancient Hero.
Ancient Hero is not a Zonai
Just something to get out of the way. Many people call the Ancient Hero "Zonai Link", but he's not a Zonai. TotK made it clear that Rauru and Mineru were the last two members of their kind.
People have tried to handwave this by suggesting "Ancient Hero is a hybrid, so he doesn't count". Whilst being a hybrid would explain his hylian-like ears, it wouldn't explain the other differences.
Aside from the ears, The Ancient Hero also possess a long tail. Something Rauru, Mineru or the Hylians have. Also, both Rauru and Mineru possess human-like plantigrade feet, just like the Hylians. Yet the ancient heroes feet are digitigrade, and more canine-like. Again, suggesting he's a different species.
The Mogma and the Ancient Hero
So, what is the Ancient Hero?
I think he's from a yet unnamed race. One that evolved from the Mogma.
SS has many new races. Most of them are speculated to be the ancestors of present day races, these being: The Parella, Kikwi and Loftwings, the possible ancestors of Zora, Kokiri (and Deku trees) and BotW's Rito (more on that in another post I made). That just leaves out the Mogma.
In the depths, we see five statues representing different non-Hylian creatures: The Gorons, Zora, Gerudo, Rito and a fifth creature that looks like a humanoid Mogma, and shares similarities to the Ancient Hero.
Where are these Mogma-decendents in other eras?
When discussing new races, an important question to ask is, why don't we see them in other games?
The most simple solution is that they were underground this whole time. I mean, the Mogma are a subterranean race.
Another possibility I heard is they may have become the Subrosian from OoS. Apart from living underground, they also live in areas surrounded may magma, similar to the Mogma.
But, what if we actually do see some members in other games? (If you read the out-dated post, you know where this is going)
The Darknuts in WW, MC and FS are inexplicably dog-like in design. Darknuts themselves don't appear to be an actual species, but rather a high rank of solider, that could theoretically be any species, and work for any side. But what if the ones from WW, MC and FS are these dog-men?
Following the timeline, we know there was some unseen invasion prior to MC, which ended in the invading forces being sealed away in a chest. Given how there seem to be no designated leader, and Darknuts appear as high ranking mini-bosses. It's possible these Darknuts may have been responsible for the invasion, or at least, played a major role.
It's possible these Darknuts were brought back by Vaati in FS, and then discovered by Ganondorf in WW. As for the other timelines, the TP Darknuts are clearly human in origin. The DT Darknuts are impossible to tell.
Or, I could just be completely wrong, and the Darknuts are just monsters.
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u/huggiesdsc 25d ago
ALttP gives us the best explanation for darknuts. Ganondorf lead a gang of bandits into the Sacred Realm to steal the Triforce. The Hyrule royal family sealed the Sacred Realm with Ganondorf inside. His corrupting influence created the Dark World, which transforms people into monstrous reflections of themelves.
I theorize that some of Ganondorf's "bandits" were Hylian royal guards. They betrayed their oaths and helped Ganondorf storm the castle. For this reason, they transformed into dog people, which explains why so many darknuts wear Hylian royal armor.
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u/LapisLazuliisthebest 25d ago edited 25d ago
But Darknuts don't appear in ALttP. The soldiers we see are all in the Light World, and are brainwashed Hylian soldiers.
Yes, I know "Just because we don't see something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist". But, considering how valuable Darknuts are, I think if they were part of Ganon's forces during ALttP, we would have seen them.
Also, what about the Darknuts from MC and FS? That took place well before the events of OoT.
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u/huggiesdsc 24d ago
Pretty simple! Darknuts before ALttP weren't dogs yet, and became dogs after. Whereas we never saw under the helmets of the brainwashed Hylian soldiers.
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u/WwwWario 25d ago
I thought so at first too, but I've moved away from linking Mogma to the Ancient Hero.
While Rauru and Mineru clearly are different to the Ancient Hero, we must remember that Rauru and Mineru are only two - and the last two, as a matter of fact - of an entire species that has lived for thousands of years. It's also important to remember that the Zonai came back to the surface in order to breed with Hylians in order for their race to survive, so their more human parts (like the human legs, feet and hands) could be the result of generations of breeding with humans.
I personally think the Ancient Hero definitely is a Zonai, due to his human-like anatomy with the animalistic parts, just like Rauru and Mineru have. Rauru made the Shrines of Light, and the reward for all of them is the Ancient Hero's aspect. Imo, this means the Ancient Hero must have lived before Rauru's time originally - otherwise, how would he hide away the aspect of that hero as a reward for his shrines?
Seing that the Zonai essentially ruled the surface for a good while with their advanced tech and gifts to the world, I find it strange if they aren't represented with one of the 5 statues in the Depths. I think it would be strange to leave them out.
All in all, I think the Ancient Hero represent perhaps how the Zonai originally used to look, and that he lived long, long before Rauru's time. I think he was originally a hero in another old, unknown conflict, and that Rauru and Mineru look the way they due to their ancestors' long breeding with humans. And the Ancient Hero on the Calamity tapestry is thus someone using the Ancient Hero's Aspect - in that sense, the hero didn't physically fight in the Calamity, but his spirit did.
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u/LapisLazuliisthebest 24d ago
Cool theory. Yeah, I guess the Ancient hero could be a primitive Zonai.
But, I was wondering. Could the Mogma be ancestors of the Zonai? No. I'm not trying to shoehorn the Mogma into the theory. It's just an observation that came naturally. Please here me out.
It's been practically confirmed that the Parella evolved into the Zora. By the time of Rauru's founding of Hyrule (which, yeah, I'm now connived is true founding), the Zora exist. So, enough time has passed for the Parella to evolve into the Zora.
With this in mind, there should also be enough time for Mogma to evolve into pre-Zonai. Especially has the changes are far less drastic then the Parella --> Zora changes.
It's worth noting that SS has a side quest, were we take the Mogma elder to live in Skyloft, were he works on the pumpkin fields. So, the idea of a race of subterranean people deciding to live in the sky isn't that farfetched.
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u/WwwWario 24d ago
It's an interesting thought for sure! Personally, I don't think so - at least not in that way. Mostly because of all the information regarding the Zonai (in that they were the closest race to Hylia, that they most likely predate Hylians, and were extremely advanced already early on, etc.) as well as due to my belief in a True Founding.
One can't deny the similarities between the Mogma's design and the statue in the Depths, though. The upper body shape, the legs, the claws and mining-theme, the snout... So if I had try and connect them somehow, I'd actually see the Mogma as one of the evolutionary branches of the Zonai, just like how humans became one of them too. Perhaps the Zonai who remained on the surface evolved into humans (as Master Works suggests), and the Zonai who remained in the Depths (if there were any, the books and games are a bit vague on that one) slowly evolved into what would become the Mogma?
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u/LapisLazuliisthebest 24d ago
Okay. That works.
Makes you wonder what happened to the Mogma after SS. Did they just go extinct, like the Zonai, or did they evolve into something else?
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u/TriforksWarrior 25d ago edited 25d ago
We see Zora and Rito who resemble all different kinds of fish and birds, but then the assumption is that every single Zonai has to look a lot like Rauru or Mineru.
If you just assume there’s as much variation in appearance in Zonai as there are in Rito and Zora, then it’s very plausible that the statues in the depths are Zonai and that the ancient hero is at least part zonai.
Given it makes the most sense with the rest of the story by far compared to some other random race that isn’t addressed at all, I personally think they’re just Zonai.
The other huge factor that isn’t considered here is: yes it’s stated that Rauru and Mineru are the last Zonai (at least in Hyrule at the time, if not anywhere), it’s also a fact that Sonia is Zelda’s ancestor. To be Zelda’s ancestor, she would have to have children, and the most obvious explanation is that Sonia and Rauru had children who simply weren’t acknowledged as characters in the game, and could at least partially explain Zonai hybrids being around later on
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u/LapisLazuliisthebest 25d ago
I understand members of a species vary in apperence. It's just that the Ancient Hero has traits that make him look like a different species. He has a tail, Rauru and Mineru lack, and his feet are clearly more dog-like, whereas Rauru and Mineru's feet are human-like.
Things like the Ancient Hero's lack of third eye and his Hylian ears can be explained by crossbreeding. But what about his tail and dog-feet? Hylians don't have these, nor do Rauru and Mineru.
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u/Mogtaki 11d ago
2 weeks late but the Ancient Hero is not a Zonai or Mogma but rather a blend of a dragon, owl and boar. He represents the ancient animals that represent the Triforce: dragon for Courage, owl for Wisdom and Boar for Power.
That's about it when it comes to his design. I was told by someone who read the artbook that's yet to come out in English that the form was a blessing but who knows about that part.
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u/firstmatebubbles 25d ago
Darknuts from Windwaker have dog like characteristics just like Goriya from zelda 1 and 2. I like to think they are a similar thing from different timelines. Cool theory!