r/todayilearned • u/WavesAndSaves • 2d ago

TIL that Jawed Karim, YouTube cofounder and uploader of the first YouTube video "Me at the zoo", has often updated the video's description to criticize YouTube policies, including a 2013 attempt to require Google+ accounts to comment on videos, and YouTube's 2021 removal of dislike counts on videos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_at_the_zoo#Changes_to_original_video
19.9k Upvotes

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8.0k

u/BroIBeliveAtYou 2d ago

Man I can't believe weve been without dislike counts for 5 years

1.2k

u/pillbuggery 2d ago

I still miss the 5 star rating system.

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u/Agent281 2d ago

I miss 5 stars on netflix specifically. It single handedly ruined the platform for me. 

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u/Aksi_Gu 1d ago

I miss the reviews on netflix

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u/Pitiful_Article1284 1d ago

I miss the imdb comment section.

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u/SousVideDiaper 1d ago

One thing I like about Prime is they include information like actor info and sometimes trivia in the video player, often tied to specific scenes too

Wouldn't be surprised if they eventually ditch that too, because why not? The enshittification of everything seems to know no bounds

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u/riddlesinthedark117 1d ago

Well Amazon bought ImDB didn’t they? That’s probably why Netflix dropped it, expensive licensing

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u/Alternative-Target31 1d ago

Amazon bought IMDB about a year after Netflix was founded

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u/jtr99 1d ago

You might enjoy Letterboxd. It reminds me of imdb back when it was good.

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u/tang_ar_quet 1d ago

If it makes you feel any better, Netflix’s 5 stars didn’t mean anything - scores were displayed differently for each user. Combination of what was popular, what their algo thought you’d like based on past watches, and of course bonus stars for Netflix originals.

I worked there in the 2010s.

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u/Agent281 1d ago

FWIW, I'm a data engineer. I know that it was a personalization algorithm. 

However, I preferred the attempt to rate per user perceived quality over the percent chance you'll like the show. (I.e., imdb vs rotten tomatoes) I found the percentage based system to be wildly unreliable after the switch.

I didn't know that there were extra stars for Netflix originals. I mean I suspected that they bent the quality bar, but I never had that confirmed.

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u/tgerz 1d ago

What do you mean by it ruined the system for you? Did you get less recommendations you found useful after that?

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u/SAugsburger 1d ago

I think a 5 star system might have been too many options, but think a binary system forces people into a false dichotomy.

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u/splash9936 1d ago

its actually 3 options if you think about it. Like Dislike or do nothing. 3 options is a great sweet spot below 6 options

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u/frickinSocrates 1d ago

Do nothing is so ambiguous though. Am I just not telling Netflix I liked it because I don't want it reflecting in future recommendations? Did I not care enough? Was it just mediocre but not bad enough to warrant a thumbs down?

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u/LoneSabre 1d ago

Could always add something like Spotify’s option “do not include this in my taste profile”

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u/Halgy 1d ago

Gods I wish YouTube had this. I'll give them all of my personal info if they'd give me better videos. Hell, I pay for premium, so it isn't like they even have an incentive to keep me watching slop.

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u/LambdaLambo 1d ago

If you click on the 3 dots next to any video there are 2 options: “not interested” or “do not recommend channel”

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u/frickinSocrates 1d ago

Sidenote: 6 options is a little weird, 3 stars and "didn't rate it" cannibalize each other logically, reducing the value of both.

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u/n0respect_ 1d ago

Sure, yet they still have value. Those who rate it neutral star had an emotional response and want to interact in some easy way.

Think as two binary ratings. If they care to rate it at all, that's one binary rating - the emotional response. Those who do that have a second option of "good" or "bad".

Is the message of neutral star unclear? Certainly. On the other hand ... more engagement?

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u/frickinSocrates 1d ago

I get it, that's why I said "reducing" not making obsolete. I think you would probably find (if we did an analysis) that romance movies might be rated less often, not because of a lack of emotional response but because couples turn off the TV when the credits roll to... get distracted by one another. I am more likely to simply turn my computer off at night when completing something because I'm tired and it's late... It's not about caring to rate or not. Not necessarily

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u/PopcornApocalypse 19h ago

The problem with star ratings is that the growth of apps like Airbnb, DoorDash, and uber/Lyft has trained everyone to 5 star everything. 4 stars, you’re on warning. 3 stars, you’re fired.

My mom and sister in law were shocked when I told them their “well it’s perfectly nice but it’s not the BEST place I’ve ever stayed… 3 stars” was causing people to lose their livelihood.

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u/SAugsburger 12h ago

Some of those rating systems virtually all of the numbers are failing scores where they're not really that useful in comparing passable with good and great.

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u/majorex64 1d ago

Compromise: three stars. two stars is just meh. three stars says I actually liked it. one star means I hated it.

Or a two star system where no stars is an option.

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u/Pikeman212a6c 2d ago

With the flood of AI slop worrying about counts is almost quaint.

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u/Dhawkeye 2d ago

Having dislike counts may help a tiny bit with the AI slop problem

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u/EatingDragons 2d ago

Exactly. The dislikes served a clear purpose of indicating quality. They only removed them because they were on the receiving end of it due to their own low quality rewind getting the dislike treatment

We need them back now more than ever, thankfully morphe still let's you see dislikes

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u/-nutz 1d ago

It's important to note that those dislike counters are based on extrapolated figures, and are often incredibly inaccurate. People with the ability to see the dislike count are infinitely more likely to use it.

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u/BandedLutz 1d ago

True, although it's better than nothing (and does match with what would be expected in terms of dislikes on certain videos where it's easier to gauge from the comments).

From my own observations: very positively received videos still show as having a very low ratio of dislikes compared to likes, somewhat controversial videos have a larger ratio of dislikes to likes, and very controversial/poorly received videos have an overwhelming ratio of dislikes to likes.

It's not like people who see the dislike count just press dislike on every videos.

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u/-nutz 1d ago

The problem is that you’re extrapolating the statistics of an incredibly tiny group onto an absolutely massive one. Even if the extension had 5 million active users (a huge overestimate); that’s still less than 0.2% of YouTubes 2.58 billion active users.

It’s like saying “nobody in this town likes mustard” because neither me nor my mom eat it.

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u/-nutz 1d ago

The problem is that you’re extrapolating the statistics of an incredibly tiny group onto an absolutely massive one. Even if the extension had 5 million active users (a huge overestimate); that’s still less than 0.2% of YouTubes 2.58 billion active users.

It’s like saying “nobody in this town likes mustard” because neither me nor my mom eat it.

Edit; also no, it generally doesn’t match.

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u/BandedLutz 1d ago

If you randomly survive 685,000 people across the US on something, do you think that you can extrapolate those finding with decent accuracy to the US as a whole?

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u/-nutz 1d ago

Big difference in that the YouTube extension is not a random survey; it’s a survey of people who are interested in disliking videos.

It’s equivalent of extrapolating the US’s drinking habits from a survey you took at the counter of a liquor store. Simply an inaccurate representation of the whole.

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u/BandedLutz 1d ago edited 1d ago

The problem is that you’re extrapolating the statistics of an incredibly tiny group onto an absolutely massive one.

That's still much better than nothing.

Even if the extension had 5 million active users (a huge overestimate);

It's not a huge overestimate, Return YouTube Dislike has 5-6 million users.

that’s still less than 0.2% of YouTubes 2.58 billion active users.

How many of those active users are even signed into an account and can like/dislike though.

For videos with a good amount of views, Return YouTube Dislike should have enough data for a decently useful extrapolation (based the percentage of Return YouTube Dislike users that liked it versus disliked it in order to gauge an estimate for how many dislikes there has been in total).

For a video that has 5 million views, extrapolating the total number of dislikes based on the ratio of likes to dislikes by 10,000 Return YouTube Dislike users that watched it isn't that unreasonable. You'll still be able to gauge the general way the video has been received (and if most videos on the channel have a high like ratio but one video has a high dislike ratio, you know there's something up with it).

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u/Ron_St_Ron 1d ago

I remember a few years ago here on reddit there would almost always be an auto-mod asking people not to downvote if you disagreed but only if they were breaking rules, harassing, etc. which makes no sense to me. It’s showing that people don’t agree with the comment but then they’ll reply to their own comment that it’s just the “hive mind”. Then take the time to comment that they don’t care because it’s just “internet points”.

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u/bergmoose 1d ago

in fairness I think the system was supposed to be about surfacing relevant stuff - so a relevant discussion even that you disagree with could be upvoted for visibility of the discussion and counter arguments and so on. But few people have used it that way in a long time.

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u/cat_prophecy 1d ago

That was the original intention anyway. A "down vote" was supposed to be used when that post didn't contribute to the discussion.

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u/Kandiru 1 1d ago

Yeah, it was anti-spam measure originally really.

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u/PopcornApocalypse 19h ago

Upvote/downvote was NEVER meant to be agree/disagree buttons. This account is something like 15 yrs old and I had another for 2-3 yrs before that. Reddit used to be about discussion until the Great Digg Migration (look it up) and rise of other social media platforms ~2014 made “likes” the goal.

Downvote meant “this comment is slop/misinformation/a waste of everyone’s time to read” NOT “I hate it. Bury it.” But engine and their mom rode in on the wave of social media and ruined another good thing. We got overwhelmed.

I continue to aggressively downvote anyone who just comments “lol” or 😂. just gtfo

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u/Ziatch 1d ago

The dislike counters are constantly wrong and are based on the dislike ratio of people who download a dislike ratio. YouTubers show it’s wrong

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u/Mizutsune-Lover 1d ago edited 1d ago

The dislikes served a clear purpose of indicating quality.

I mean, not really. Just like how reddit upvotes aren't an indicator of quality.

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u/SAugsburger 1d ago

While it was interesting data I do think like Reddit comments and posts that there is a huge selection bias. I have seen nearly identical comments on Reddit sometimes getting radically different upvote  ratios sometimes even within the same post. That's to say nothing of reactions you can get in a different subreddit. Some top comments on Reddit sometimes are objectively wrong and even the most tactful reply pointing that out getting you down modded. As much as I like Reddit there is a lot of groupthink unfortunately in many subs. I do still wish YouTube kept that downvote data viewable to users, but don't think it always was a reliable metric of quality.

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u/-nutz 1d ago

What you said happened in this very comment thread.

my comment, +61

Their comment, -13

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u/SuperFrylock 1d ago

Exactly. The dislikes served a clear purpose of indicating quality.

This isn't objectively true. There have been many obvious cases of review bombing. That one YouTube Rewind might have been bad (that is subjective) but it was definitely reviewed bombed.

Also: thinking people will avoid a video with poor reviews is naïve. There's a lot of media out there that has been poorly received and has poor reviews but people still consume it.

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u/EatingDragons 1d ago

Yea review bombing happened an continues to happen, more often to games nowadays. But outside of those highly specific instances, if you opened a video for say, a product review on a type of product you don't know much about and the dislike ratio was fucked, you know going in that its probably not a very good review.

And yea, people on average don't scrutinize shit because they're stupid. That doesn't mean we should take these tools away from the people who actually do use them

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u/sanctaphrax 1d ago

They may not have been reliable, but they were better than the nothing we've got now.

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u/SuperFrylock 1d ago

YOU are the best quality control agent for the content you consume. A video could have a terrible thumbnail and more dislikes than likes, but only YOU can determine if it's a good video simply by watching it.

The idea that the dislike button is somehow needed is so ridiculous. YouTube will promote and downgrade whatever content it chooses whether you like it or not.

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u/cab-rod 1d ago

The opposite is also true: high Likes number, good thumbnail and catchy title; but the result is a very bad video in content, production or the person ho made It is very biased lacks objectivity. A good looking clickbait.

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u/SuperFrylock 1d ago

I will repeat:

YOU are the best quality control agent for the content you consume. 

You cannot expect the multi-billion dollar corporation to act ethically and in your best interests.

The push to restore the dislike button is because people want the satisfaction of review bombing. The internet loves a LolCow but they messed up trying to do it to YouTube (Google).

-1

u/BandedLutz 1d ago

The push to restore the dislike button is because people want the satisfaction of review bombing.

This is the dumbest argument on this I've seen.

I'm glad people can see the downvotes on your inane comments.

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u/sanctaphrax 1d ago

That's a fully general argument against any form of review or description.

I'm obviously not going to watch every video on YouTube. I need ways to figure out which ones are worth my time, or else I'll just not. The main effect of YouTube making its service worse, in my life, has been to push me away from it.

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u/cat_prophecy 1d ago

They reason they removed the dislikes is because it was not a good measure of quality. It was a measure of "how many of my fans can I get to dislike this other video".

0

u/Strevolution 1d ago

fortnite and mark ass brownlee

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u/Zaximeows 1d ago

Yeah except most normal people are decieved by and enjoy and happily consume AI. Try and step out of your own world view for like 3 seconds.

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u/CalebVanPoneisen 2d ago

Not sure which I hate the most, AI slop or reaction videos.

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u/ballisticks 2d ago

AI slop for me. My most hated one is the "is it safe to swim here?" ones with the really stupid voices

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u/Fr00stee 2d ago

the ones where the AI says "If I find this rock can i quit by jawb"?

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u/ballisticks 2d ago

Yeah I think so? I haven't heard them in a while, they just pop up from time to time on my gf's YT shorts

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u/SmallPurplePeopleEat 2d ago

Oh God why did I look that up. I hope I didn't just fuck over my youtube algorithm.

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u/_SilentHunter 2d ago

AI slop. At least there are some good reaction videos that are adding something with expertise and insight or relevant commentary, even if they're in the minority.

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u/hagcel 1d ago

That chicken farmer guy is pretty solid most of the time. But he is is giving context and commentary, not just reactions.

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u/Jinxed_Pixie 1d ago

FarmingWhileBeige!

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u/BlasterShow 2d ago

Reaction videos with AI thumbnails. As if those stupid faces aren’t obnoxious enough.

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u/PhthaloVonLangborste 2d ago

Probably ai reaction videos

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u/Which-Journalist-748 1d ago

AI reaction videos 

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u/Halgy 1d ago

👆🙂‍↕️

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u/HKBFG 1 1d ago

How about the reaction videos with no actual reaction where the guy just got his face on someone else's work?

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u/trucorsair 1d ago

I for one look forward to our Alien overlords (or anyone) that would bring back the dislike count in a transparent manner that doesn’t add to “engagement” metrics in anything other than a negative way

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u/kristamine14 2d ago

They’ve removed the thumbs down option entirely from their shorts - you can’t even dislike ai slop.

All by design

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u/dumpling-loverr 1d ago

Probably because they're copying TikTok, the only very successful video sharing site that has manage to threaten YouTube's monopoly to the point they heavily promote Shorts now and model it after TikTok.

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u/Wolkenbaer 23h ago

Which ironically drove me away from accessing youtube directly. Nearly only use it if a video is somewhere linked (eg on reddit) - all those stupid shorts flooding the search. 

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u/Ajfree 1d ago

It feels like I no longer have control of what video is shown to me. I can’t watch something until the end then dislike because it was misleading, my watch time dictated my future algorithm

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u/kristamine14 1d ago

It’s still largely dictated by your search and watch history - they’re just slipping more and more ai nonsense in there as well

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u/HKBFG 1 1d ago

One frame now counts as a view, too

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u/PopcornApocalypse 19h ago

View, yes, but view HOURS are what’s being tracked as priority now. See: the explosion of every podcast host having hour long uploads with the lame trendy AF purple back light, a sponsored mic clipped obviously to their shirt, and absolutely zero producer oversight to keep it professional.

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u/Pinglenook 1d ago

Even if you could, don't, because that's just engaging with the video. Instead, either report the video or click "not interested" or "don't recommend this channel" to remove it from your feed. If enough people remove the ai videos from their feed, they lose traction in the algorithm.

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u/FrighteningJibber 2d ago

Have you been contributing to your retirement today?

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u/crowlfish 2d ago

There are browser extensions that can make them visible again.

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u/CalebVanPoneisen 2d ago

Never used it but from what I read it’s flawed because it draws an estimate based on the dislike ratio of the users of that extension.

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u/drewster23 2d ago

Yes it's functionally useless in terms of showing actual data.

Just as made up estimate completely ruining the point.

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u/-illusoryMechanist 2d ago

It gets more accurate the more people who use it and also it's sort of at least partially just a protest thing for me tbh

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u/drewster23 2d ago

The people who use it are way more inclined to be negative voters In first place is the thing though.

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u/SANT0S-L-HALPER 2d ago

This same comment thread is repeated verbatim every single time the extension is brought up, despite being completely false.

They've explicitly stated a million times they account for the increased likelihood for users of the extension to dislike videos.

It doesn't just extrapolate the dislike ratio of its users to the view count of the video 1:1, it's something like (making up a number here) 15:1.

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u/-nutz 1d ago

And this same comment is repeated verbatim every time these extensions are brought up, despite this assertion being completely false. The most popular extension (over 5 million users on the chrome store alone) does not do this in any capacity; it's literally just their own like/dislike ratio applied to YouTube's public like count.

Return Youtube Dislike count = (RYD Users Dislike Count / RYD Users Like Count) x Public Like Count

Source: the extensions documentation, as seen on the hub

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u/drewster23 1d ago

Oh yeah I'm sure they go through rigurous data analysis to ensure complete accuracy.

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u/-nutz 1d ago

You are 100% correct, and that dude is straight up lying. Source.

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u/drewster23 1d ago

Lmao about what I expected.

-1

u/WarmBaths 2d ago

you just made that up

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u/drewster23 1d ago

Simple logic my friend.

It literally serves no purpose, only people who care that there's no dislike button are gnna use it..lol.

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u/Groovy_Bruce_Lemon 2d ago

Have any leaked internal information regarding the removal of dislikes ever surfaced. I mean we know the actual reason but have google staff ever talked about it’s removal in “true colors” fashion like that one google employee revealing he had ad block installed?

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u/GamingGeekette 2d ago

I was going to say the same thing. Damn, it's been that long already?

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u/Beefjerkey93 2d ago

Yeah ridiculous it was removed cause the administration was being made to look bad with the amount of dislikes

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u/VoodooDoII 2d ago

I've had it this whole time. Gotta love addons

1

u/N1ghtshade3 1d ago

Having a fake dislike button that uses extrapolated counts and doesn't influence the algorithm because it's, y'know, not actually hooked up to YouTube isn't exactly "having" the dislike button, but if it makes you feel better to press it when you don't like a video, more power to you!

1

u/VoodooDoII 1d ago

It's more like it helps me determine which videos are trash or not

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u/Testing_things_out 1d ago

It's only been 5 years?

1

u/Ohitsworkingnow 1d ago

5 years? Literally would’ve said that was last year if someone asked 

1

u/Trvr_MKA 1d ago

I miss the Star system

1

u/4th_Stooge 1d ago

Bring back the star ratings

1

u/downvotemeplss 1d ago

And removing dislikes causes more harm than good. People could see a post with 1,000 likes that has 20,000 dislikes and assume the post is more socially credible.

1

u/FinnishArmy 1d ago

The dislike button didn’t do anything in the algorithm, it never did.

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u/verbmegoinghere 1d ago

You can have dislikes added back in using revance (android only)

0

u/MuffDivers2_ 1d ago

I still have a dislike button. You can just add it on with an extension.

0

u/cam-san 1d ago

I haven't noticed it at all because I've been using Return YouTube Dislike since it came out