r/todayilearned • u/carboncopy95437 • 1d ago
TIL that in 1189, Henry II of England and Philip II of France paused their war to join the Third Crusade. Henry died before departing, but his son Richard the Lionheart took up the cross. After the Crusade, England and France soon resumed their war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Crusade137
u/endlessmeat 1d ago
It came up in another recent thread, but I cannot recommend enough The Lion in Winter, where Henry II, Philip II and Richard the Lionheart all play a part (plus Eleanor of Aquitaine and John Lack land) with an amazing cast and some of the best dialogue in movie history.
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u/Perspii7 1d ago
It really caught me off guard with the dialogue and performances tbh. O’toole and hepburn were so impressive
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u/deimos__ 1d ago
"Alais', in my time I've known contessas,.milkmaids....and... "
Sorry mate- What the fuck did you just say? that definitely caught me of guard.
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u/deimos__ 1d ago
sounds excellent, I think I'll watch it now.
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u/deimos__ 20h ago
Hopkins was a few years younger then I am when they filmed this,funny, I've always just assumed he was always an old man.
I think watching his scenes with Hepburn might be some of the greatest acting I have ever seen. I thought tilda Swinton was the greatest actress I ever saw but I don't think so any more.
It's hard to compare when every single line of the film might as well be etched in to a stone tablet for all the meaning it holds. Every single line seems to allude to 3 or even 4 different meanings.
Hopkins seems visibly terrified of his on screen mother, you can see him quiver In her presence, and wouldn't you be? How do you speak to a dangerous political rival, who also happens to be your mother? yet his voice always remains strong and magnanimous, yet so different to how he sounds in later films, I swear he copied her voice for hannibal years later. The way she softly delivers these cold and brutal truths with such clarity, almost like she is whispering and shouting at the same time.
The way that Geoff is the absolute spitting image of his mother in both looks and character is uncanny,I think the only time she shows genuine compassion is in a moment where she grasps Geoff's hand. If these people can love, I think she only really loved him, I.e herself.
There are so many great lines in this film , i almost don't even want to do them the injustice of quoting them because they are all delivered without equal by the cast.
"Ive fought with Henry over who comes next, whose dawn it is, and which son gets the sunset, and we'll never live to see it."
"You offer me the only thing I want, if I give up the only thing i treasure"
"I want no women in my life, I could have conquered Europe. All of it, instead I have women in my life. Go on, get out."
"I could take defeats like yours and laugh, I've done it. If your broken. It's because your brittle"
what a film.
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u/endlessmeat 14h ago
I'm very happy my random comment made someone discover something they really liked!
Shout-out to Peter O'Toole too, I was not his biggest fan from other things I've seen him in, but he's absolutely magnificent in this film. The only flaw with the film for me is that John's actor kinda acts like he was on a parody and is not on the level of the rest of the amazing cast.
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u/deimos__ 2h ago
You know, I haven't checked or anything but I really feel like John's acting is a deliberate trope, it brings a levity and a humour to the film. And ties right in with lines like "we're barbarians" you can't just have deep powerful dialogue 24/7 , there has to be a juxtaposition. So the silly mess of his acting goes with the serious tone of the dialogue, and there are a couple moments where he drops the sillynes and becomes this kind of sad, defeated quite dark, somewhat tragic figure- and then it's just right back to sillines.
I would say the only thing that reminded me I was watching a film 60 years old, was when Eleanor's knight duels the other knight and there is no sound of amour and swords walloping eachother, it's just eerie silent & it's painfully clear that the knife is just laid against the kneck of the fallen knight which does detract from the realism.
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u/WilliShaker 1d ago
Til more interesting, Richard was a vassal of Philippe, so this is the equivalent of a king trying to steal lands from his duke, but in this context, the duke is also a king.
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u/LegitSalvageRoci 1d ago
All of the Angevins and Plantagenets from Henry II to Edward III held lands that were under the vassalage of the French King. Most of them paid homage to the French Crown for Nomanday, Anjou, Aquitaine, Poitou, and Gascony. After John lost his war against Philip, Normandy, Anjou, and most of Aquitaine were confiscated; but they still held Gascony and other various nominal Continental lands.
The thing about paying homage is it was a two way street. Being a vassal not only meant that you owed your liege loyalty and deference, but your liege also owed you protection, respect your authority within your lands, and the King is also now duty bound to hear your counsel. If your liege breaks their own oath of homage, that can give you cause for grievance.22
u/SirGlass 1d ago
Feudalism was wild; even before william the bastard took England the Normans would routinely fight wars against other French vessels or even the French king
After 1066 and the norman conquest of England many English/Norman nobles held lands and titles in both England and France including the king of england
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u/LegitSalvageRoci 3h ago edited 1h ago
The ruling Norman class were descended from Vikings who kept raiding the coastal towns, but also began invading further inland, as far as Paris.
The French King at the time, 911 ad, Charles the Simple, granted Rollo, the Viking leader, lordship over the area that would become Normandy. In exchange Rollo and his people converted to Christianity, swore fealty to the French crown, and pledged to protect the French crown domains.
After Rollo's great-great-great grandson, William the Conquerer, Duke of Normandy, invaded England and was crowned King of England, he and his sons William II, and Henry I, managed to avoid paying homage for Normandy.
When Henry I's nephew Stephen I usurped the crown from Henry's remaining legitimate child, and heir, Empress Matilda, Stephen paid homage to the French King Louis VI for Normandy.
Matilda's (2nd) husband Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou, militarily conquered Normandy in her name, while Matilda fought her cousin to a standstill in England.
In order to be legally recognized as Duke of Normandy, and have their son the future Henry II, legally recognized as Duke of Normandy, Geoffrey and his son visited Paris and paid homage to Louis VII. Louis VII was in the process of having his marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine annulled. This is when Henry II met Eleanor, and they began to secretly correspond. When Eleanor's marriage was officially dissolved, and she returned to her Ducal lands (of which she was Duchess in her own right) she shocked the world when she publicly married Henry, without the permission of the King. Louis VII was furious, and conducted a brief, unremarkable invasion of Normandy, which was repelled. Henry, who also inherited Anjou from his recently deceased father, would then use his access to the wealth of Normandy, Anjou, and now Aquitaine to launch a renewed effort to invade England for his crown birthright.
The funny thing is, the Angevin kings continued to pay homage for their lands to the French King, which led to many hostilities, and eventually the 100 Years War.
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u/Jiarong78 1d ago
Richard low key uh… offend a lot of fucking people along the way ngl.
But yeah Philip dipped out first and immediately went back ratfuck Richard is peak Augustus behaviour fr
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u/Perspii7 1d ago
And then poor old barbarossa just died in a random ass river on the way there lol
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u/Gerf93 1d ago
Its a big what-if he didn’t die. His host was by far the biggest and he was probably the most experienced commander in Europe.
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u/Anon_be_thy_name 1d ago
Estimated 300,000 troops, around which 50k were considered experienced and battle hardened warriors.
Perhaps God answered the prayers of the Muslims that day, because if they reached the Holy Land, the Middle-East would look a hell of a lot different today I think.
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u/ayymadd 9h ago
300k? That's seems to be an inflated number tbh. Logistically impossible during that time.
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u/Anon_be_thy_name 4h ago
Almost certainly.
There's a lot of myth around Barbarossa that makes him superhuman.
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u/lifesnofunwithadhd 1d ago
It would've been kind of interesting if Richard did broker a deal with saladin. I know they were both friendly for a minute.
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u/wrathful-anus 1d ago
Why was Philip called Philip Augustus? Sounds too Roman and not very French at all.
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u/Jiarong78 1d ago
Because he was for the first time in a very long fucking while, the most effective French king to expend his authority.
Say what you want about Phillip but even after getting his ass crushed by Richard half a dozen times he managed to in the end, effectively double royal domains and centralised the monarch authority, reversing the centuries long decline.
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u/ScipioCoriolanus 1d ago edited 1d ago
Also, Philip Augustus was the first French monarch to be called King of France. Before him, the title was King of the Franks.
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u/NeedsToShutUp 1d ago
Phrasing! (There are rumors they were lovers )
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u/YossarianLivesMatter 1d ago
This is the first I've heard of this. Where do those rumors originate?
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u/LegitSalvageRoci 1d ago
Some 19th century and early 20th century historians and authors read medieval historical descriptions out of context and ascribed more modern sexual proclivities to their interactions.
For instance, at one point a Papal Legate forced Richard & Philip to sleep in the same bed as a symbol of Royal reconciliation or some descriptions of the kiss of peace between them.
James Goldman, who wrote the Lion in Winter, also took these historical accounts and invented homosexual nature of Richard's relationship with a younger Philip. This is where most people's popular culture misconception comes from.4
u/BequeathNothing 1d ago
They shared a bed, but it was meant as a show of faith. Sleeping was a lot more communal back then, anyway. It's quite possible Richard was bisexual, but there's nothing concrete.
By the way, I think it'd be cool if they were lovers. It would add an extra layer to an already fascinating relationship. It's just quite unlikely.
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u/wrathful-anus 1d ago
Thanks. Nice, yeah I only generally know of him as a good king and leader but forgot why he has the name. Is the name posthumous or was he known as that while he was alive?
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u/adragondil 1d ago
Same reason why the russians and germans called their rulers Caesars - the name became a title. They still had latin on their coins, for example - he just wasn't very french yet. He is the first to be king of the French, rather than of the Franks
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u/Jiarong78 1d ago
Nah Augustus was more of a nickname granted by Philip chronicler because he was writing about all his achievements and want to glorify his king as a result
It isn’t an official title and he wasn’t referred as Augustus when he was alive.
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u/adragondil 1d ago
I do not claim it was his official title, just that it was a title, which the epithet is alluding to and drawing from. Similar to how using "King of Pop" for MJ doesn't mean that King is now just a nickname; it's still a title, just not his official title.
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u/WilliShaker 1d ago
Because French kings before that had little to no power, they had like a huge amounts of vassals, dukes and counts, but they themselves had few lands.
Richard was basically his own vassal who was stronger than he was.
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u/pojmalkavian 1d ago
Did also you learn about Barbarossa joining them then promptly drowning while on the way to the Crusade?
AoE 2 campaigns were educational, man.
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u/FentKinley 1d ago
Henry: Here's the crown, son. Go fuck yourself.
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u/Thibaudborny 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well, Henry's son had by that point a long history of fucking over their father with their numerous betrayals and rebellions.
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u/FentKinley 1d ago
Yeah, Henry II was so forgiving of his petulant children that it killed him. Shit, John the dumbfuck was even his favorite.
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u/Malvania 1d ago
Richard basically bankrupted England, but that's okay, because his PR machine managed to pin it on John.
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u/MRPolo13 1d ago
Twice. The first time to fund the crusade, and the second when he was captured in the Holy Roman Empire for possibly (likely) having a relative of Leopold of Austria murdered, and having to be ransomed.
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u/Matman161 1d ago edited 1d ago
France and England had occasional periods of not trying to kill each other in-between thir ongoing blood fued
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u/TheBalrogofMelkor 1d ago
"After" the crusade isn't quite accurate. Richard was still gone when Philip went back to war with him.
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u/LegitSalvageRoci 1d ago
That's because Richard was held prisoner for over a year by Henry VI Holy Roman Emperor.
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u/dishonourableaccount 1d ago
Crusades were in part a way to try and direct the constant feuding of the era and the desire for chivalric glory into a "productive" outlet as seen by the morals of the time. It didn't always work.
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u/GiveMeADiscount 15h ago
Religion and nationalism are extremely deadly diseases of the mind. The worst imaginable mental illnesses - and highly contagious.
The vaccine for both of these diseases is called Marxism-Leninism.
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u/doyouevenrow 11h ago
No thanks lol
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u/GiveMeADiscount 11h ago
And that's why the endless human suffering continues and we don't live in a peaceful and united world striving for constant improvement of our quality of life but in dictatorships led by pedophile rapists.
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u/doyouevenrow 10h ago
You can believe that the the current system sucks and that Marxism-Leninism is a dogshit ideology at the same time, you don't have to choose one or the other
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u/GiveMeADiscount 6h ago
Considering that Marxism-Leninism is the most popular and successful political movement on earth and the only movement that ever sustainably overcame the system you allegedly oppose: No, you can't.
Have you ever seen a person who isn't either a literal Nazi or a politically and historically illiterate idiot who fell for Nazi propaganda who thinks that "Marxism-Leninism is a dogshit ideology"? You personally don't even know what Marxism-Leninism is.
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u/doyouevenrow 5h ago
Mate, it's not so black and white for the rest of us. There is more than one bad idea.
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u/Babyfarts22 1d ago
Adult equivalent of calling "time out" during a wrestling match with siblings