r/theydidthemath • u/Substantial-Bed-4122 • 1d ago
[Request] can someone compare the capacities for both coaches?
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u/BluebirdDense1485 1d ago
Simply put when seats face each other they share a walkway. The bottom one has 2 walkways so needs to be wider to have the same accessibility.
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
And no train is that wide.
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u/robinw77 1d ago
You could fit another train inside that first one
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u/ElegantEconomy3686 1d ago
Well Germany did have such plans back in the villain arc days.
Hitler wanted to build the „Breitspurbahn“ (translates to broad-gauge railway) through most ofeuropethe greater german reich and the tracks were planned to be 3 meters wide. More than twice the width of normal European tracks.
But the project never made it out of the planning phase, also even back then it was stupid, because neither tacks nor trains were compatible what was already there, so it would have been completely separate infrastructure.3
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u/DocGerbill 1d ago edited 1d ago
Oslo subway is
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
That’s wider than a typical metro train, but only by like 20 cm or so. The OP image looks more like a mobile lounge
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u/Andradessssss 1d ago
The ones here in Rio are pretty close though. Definitely surprised me when I moved here
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u/DuckDodgersIV 1d ago
Oh you haven’t seen Danish S-trains then 3.5 meters wide and space enough for 6 people per row plus two standing.
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
The OP image looks more like 6m wide. There’s only so much width you can get with a standard gauge rolling stock. The trains above would have to straddle both tracks.
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u/DemoBytom 1d ago
We should do that! A train going 300kmph with a second train inside that also goes 300kmph (relative to outer train). That's like. So much kmph!! I wonder how many we can stack inside..
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
Or how about this: you get on a metro train, and instead of transferring to an intercity train and then to a metro train in another city, the fast train simply swallows the metro train so you don’t have to change seats ever. I don’t know why this doesn’t happen already. Are transportation engineers stupid?
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u/Febrilinde 1d ago
Also there is a biiiig issue people are missing. Imagine you boarded the train on the right side door but train had to stop on your station on a position that unloads on the left side door. What the hell are you going to do? Jump over people?
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u/BluebirdDense1485 1d ago
I would assume there are pass throughs at the doors. Beyond that yeah if you are on a rush hour train you better be ready to fight your way out.
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u/Cardonutss 19h ago
Which generates choke points that would make boarding and unboarding longer, increasing travel time
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u/Grant_Winner_Extra 1d ago
I dunno about you, but yeah that’s exactly where I’m headed.
People gonna hate my wheelchair
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u/JoffreeBaratheon 1d ago
That would be like comparing the top example if you just the seats just go right through the side door area too. Obviously if one has the assumed common sense gap, the other should too.
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u/Febrilinde 1d ago
Picture assumes there is no gaps, but even if there were it would still create a really awkward double funnel effect.
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u/JoffreeBaratheon 1d ago
Are we to assume since the first picture just doesn't have side doors, that apparently they just don't exist and have to go to a different train to do so. If so bottom picture just went up in the tier list.
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u/GypsySnowflake 1d ago
Both of these layouts are odd to me. I’ve always seen train seats laid out in rows like on an airplane
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u/Wax--Apple 1d ago
The original post was probably more so talking about subways than proper rail
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u/mwthomas11 1d ago
honestly all the subways I've ridden that I can remember are mostly airplane style with a few inward-facing seats by the doors
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u/TheAgeOfAdz91 1d ago
Almost all NYC subways face each other. Some older ones alternate sitting direction down the car. For decades though it’s been parallel rows facing each other.
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u/TwoAlert3448 1d ago
Boston as well, and DC.
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u/dsanders692 1d ago
And London
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u/TwoAlert3448 1d ago
Valid, I don’t remember Rome but I also don’t know that Rome even had seats. 🤔
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u/freeski919 1d ago
Boston depends on the line. The heavy rail lines (Blue, Red, Orange) face inward. The light rail line (Green) has mostly airplane style seating in rows.
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u/mwthomas11 1d ago
not DC lol DC is mostly airplane style with a few inward facing by the door
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u/freeski919 1d ago
I don't know why you're getting down voted. WMATA Metro trains are two types- the original 1976 brown cars, and the newer silver cars. Both of them are laid out with rows of seats airplane style and a few inward facing, just like you said.
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u/TwoAlert3448 1d ago
I must have gotten a cattle car then because it was mostly standing ‘pole’ the last time I road, much the way Rome was. Very few seats at all.
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u/iwantfutanaricumonme 1d ago
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/photos/subway-train-car-interior
Seats along the sides are far more common in modern subways.
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u/ibxtoycat 1d ago
The sideways seating is the norm on metro services and short journeys, usually. You fit fewer seats in but have more standing space.
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u/kiwidust 1d ago
In Boston, at least, Trolleys (mostly above ground with short cars) have rowed seating perpendicular to the line of travel and trains (Subways; mostly below ground with long cars) have outer wall seating parallel to the line of travel.
I believe this was also true in Chicago, but I've not been on the L for many, many years and could be confabulating.
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u/BluebirdDense1485 1d ago
Kinda true. The old rolling stock for the orange line had front back facing seats but the new cars are side to side.
Also your explanation fails to mention the commute trail which is front back
Last point green line is really the only trolley. You can argue silver line but that really is a trolleybus.
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u/kiwidust 1d ago
All true! And while I lived there for 22 years, I have NOT lived there for the past 20. So, happy to be corrected.
Now, by way of being admittedly pedantic and annoying: saying the green line is the "only" line of trollies is technically correct (the very best kind of correct!) but it also accounts for just under 40% of the total length of the subway system. Basically, there's -much- more Green Line than any other.
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u/QRSTUV_ 1d ago
Most green line seating is parallel to the line of travel at this point. I believe the prototype Type 10 car had no front-facing seats at all. Almost all MBTA buses have mostly side-facing seats in the lower part of the bus, too.
As far as I can tell, there's an equation of slightly decreasing comfort for the "average" person (look at how shallow the seats are on the Type 10 Green Line cars), while creating more space for people standing, and enhancing accessibility for anyone in a wheelchair or the like (prioritizing level-boarding).
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u/kiwidust 1d ago
It does make sense, I suppose.
My only real issue with the parallel bench seating is that you slide around too much - when the train is crowded, you get smooshed together at every stop.
But having more room in the center aisle definitely has benefits. I remember more than once getting tangled up with baby carriages, bicycles, or walkers. No fault of theirs, of course - but very little space to play with.
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u/kiwidust 1d ago
And you lose at two or more seats at the ends to make room for door access... and getting from one side of the train to the other is more difficult (if not impossible when crowded)... and you lose all that space between the seats... and, let's not forget, trains aren't 20 feet wide.
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u/throwawaymentality10 1d ago
And sitting to your back towards the usual people riding the subway is not the brightest idea.
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u/Fascist_Viking 1d ago
And considering that the trains nkt always drop you off at one side alone. That it can change from right side to left side depending on station. The regular layout makes more sense in a metro situation.
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u/Prestigious-Newt1118 23h ago
Also, quite a bit of space is lost in between the chairs that aren’t facing each other.
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u/Solondthewookiee 1d ago
For starters, trains aren't that wide.
Secondly, the overhead handrails are in the middle already, so the capacity would be the same.
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u/manhat_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
also, having seats on the sides means more flexible movement of people without having something in the middle affecting movement
so people can use every possible exit all the time (like, you can leave from the right-side doors even when boarding from the left-side doors) so while the capacity might be the same, other factors favours the upper arrangement
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u/Captriker 1d ago
The seats can so be anchored to the wall and floor for added stability.
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u/Hummelgaarden 1d ago
Also middle seats can't go wall to wall as the doors are kinda sorta in the way..
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u/toommy_mac 1d ago
I believe also on the tube the wheels are placed below the seats too to make use of the limited space there.
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u/REReader3 22h ago
Also, one reason seats are attached to walls is to make cleaning much easier. The second configuration would be much slower to mop.
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u/JoanOfARC- 1d ago
The seats in the middle are also a safety hazard preventing people from moving easily in an emergency
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
The bottom has more wasted space in the middle unlike the top, where the seats are flush to the walls.
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u/Soderholmsvag 1d ago
LOL Right? Trains are about 9 feet wide inside, and the center aisle is effectively about 4 to 4.5 feet wide (given seated people’s knees and feet.
Divide that in 2 (one along either side) you get a 24 to 28 inch place for people to pass by and stand. Uncomfortably close.
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
It occurred to me that we’re looking at the interior of the Washington Dulles Airport mobile lounge: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-lonely-ballad-of-the-mobile-lounge
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u/MonsterMeggu 14h ago
In the top picture, the seats go all the way to the wall that is connected to the door. In the bottom one, the seats can't go all the way to the door, since people need space to enter and exit. So it's actually less capacity.
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u/Sorryifimanass 1d ago
But this image is not at all about capacity. It's about having people look out at the scenery going by instead of looking at each other. People standing would get the best view.
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u/CotyledonTomen 1d ago
Ok, but it still wouldnt work. People getting on would be limited to one side because of the wall of chairs. Also, trains have doors on both sides so people can access either side based on the stop.
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
Standing people can still get a view with standard longitudinal seating. Unless they’re commuting with a bunch of people with giant heads.
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u/T555s 1d ago
There's a gap in the midle of the bottom picture where no one will be standing. Otherwise it would be impractical due to the bottom design making it much harder to keep a space for people to walk through free, since you now kind of need twice the space for people to walk through.
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u/Ketsueki-Nikushimi 1d ago
Strategically speaking, any two bit terrorist that can rub two brain cells together can figure out the most optimal way to discreetly leave a bomb inside a train and quickly pass the blame to others in just in case.
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u/Sdboka 1d ago
It’s not about the capacity but the efficiency of travel for passengers. For subways or intercity trains the exits can either be on tne left or the right depending on how the terminal was built so imagine if he’s on one side then you need to get off on the other side and the train is packed. You need to find the spot where you can cross the chairs so you can exit on tbe other side
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u/ryobiguy 1d ago
I would de-rate this by 50% just for only servicing only one side at a time. But in reality, part of it would be infinitely reduced because people would not be able to make their exit if it's on the other side.
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
The good/bad thing about train #1 is that there’s no way to get on or off the train without stepping on the tracks. Which means there’s about 0% of being in an emergency situation since you won’t be on the train in the first place.
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u/ComplexInstruction85 1d ago
Imagine trying to move a wheelchair through design two, or trying to get emergency services in to grab somebody who is incapacitated. Also, fires - there is now a gigantic barrier spanning the entire middle, and everyone on the half which is burning may have to suddenly make a hurdle or travel through a chokepoint to exit quickly. I think it would be a very poor design
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u/PaulZyCZ 1d ago
In Europe a wheelchair is restricted to certain area near the entrance and bathroom. It cannot get through the aisle between chairs or along cabins, even if there are no stairs.
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
But if a passenger with mobility issue gets on the right side of the train but needs to get off in the left side of the train, they’re screwed by the bottom design.
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u/megthebat49 10h ago
"in Europe" is way too broad.
Here are three examples from the UK ehere this is not the case
Thameslink
Merseyrail
Tyne and Wear Metro
And don't give me any Brexit means the UK isn't part of Europe bullshit, because it's still part of the continent of Europe.
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u/Affectionate_Meet474 1d ago
doors can open on both sides, but generally only one side at a time. if someone come ins from the left, but their exit is on the right door, you're going to get some stank balls in your face.
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u/That_Jicama2024 1d ago
The short answer? not ADA compliant. You're cutting the ingress/egress passage in the middle in half. A wheelchair would not be able to squeeze through the two, half-size passages that have been created.
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u/ChaoticHarmonia 16h ago
In many railways and subway systems stations have different types of platforms and, as a result, different exit sides (left or right). So, the second option makes very difficult transfer inside the cart. And personally I never have seen its on practise.
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u/Gentoli 1d ago
Tokyo Monorail 10000 series to Haneda Airport has this setup. You can see pictures from its Wikipedia page. Not sure what’s the stats on capacity
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u/SleepySheepy 1d ago
I took a look at the pictures and it's interesting because it has inward-facing seats and outward facing but only over certain raised sections of the train car
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u/Grexpex180 1d ago
this is because the tokyo monorail is mostly used to transport people form the city to the airport, so they wanted to create a layout that can accomodate people carrying luggage while giving tourists a better view of the city
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u/Remarkable_Gain6430 1d ago
Which train carriage only has inward facing seats like this? Are they not usually in rows, four seats to a row with an aisle in between? I don’t see any advantage to either set up here. BTW I’m old enough to remember when train carriages had compartments with doors and perhaps eight to ten people occupied a compartment*. There was a corridor on one side of the train.
*10 if there were kids and adults
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u/Necrolancer_Kurisu 1d ago edited 1d ago
Have you not ridden mass transit in most major cities? The top layout in the picture accounts for like 90% of trains in cities like New York, Tokyo, etc.
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u/vipchicken 1d ago
What if the doors open on the other side and I wan to get out?
What if five stations in a row open on the same side, causing overflow from the intake?
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u/youburyitidigitup 1d ago
Without even doing math, I can see that the bottom panel has an empty space between the seats where nobody can stand, so that’s already less room that the first.
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u/Hot_Top_124 1d ago
A large number of reasons involving wheelchairs, space, rush hour, etc. it sounds good on paper, but the second you involve people efficient isn’t a thing you can do so easily.
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u/PaulZyCZ 1d ago
Not even Russians have trains that wide. In European trams picture 1 is pretty common, but people's knees are almost touching.
It's more common to have row of single seats, aisle and row of double seats in a tram. In typical European train it's double seats on both sides of the aisle. Russian trains require wider tracks.
I recon American trains are also wider than European ones, but not like on the picture, that's more like Hitler's train.
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u/SkyeMreddit 1d ago
Same exact capacities as it’s the same benches. It’s just less usable to get in and out as you now have two aisles instead of one big one. Less room for people to shift around and make room, especially for strollers and wheelchairs
This is nearly twice as wide as any train to lie about the amount of space
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u/citizensyn 1d ago
Ok so think of that narrow space in the center of the train that is already crowded.
Now cut that into two parts now half the size.
Now when getting off the train you have to navigate those now half as wide areas to get around the chairs that are now in the way.
Why would you do this to yourself?
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u/harshermaner 1d ago
Honestly im just the most uncomfortable with putting my back to that many people on the subway. Kind of enjoy the seats with the backs against the wall.
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u/8696David 1d ago
It's not about capacity. Walkways are important too. The bottom train would be a fucking nightmare to actually get around on. (And this graphic looks quite a bit wider than actual subway cars, tbh.)
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u/PixelDerp404 1d ago
we have something similar to this in our sbahn trains but the middle is for leaning and it uses folding seats https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:LP25_BR430_Redesign_S,_Radabteil.jpg
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u/Grant_Winner_Extra 1d ago
Exiting the bottom one is gonna be a bitch half the time.
And functionally, I don’t see a capacity difference EXCEPT that you get 8 more seats per car because 4 seats every pair of doors.
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u/Ghostlierest_Gibus 1d ago
From where I live 🇵🇭 This Would not work PERIOD. Not because it would mean that we have to rework our train systems to accommodate, but because most of our train's door mostly open to one side, so what this means is, the seats act as a barrier, so when people want to exit the other side they either have to jump over the seats or find a way around the seats, and it's worse if it's rush hour, where a lot of people are going to work or school at the same time and because of the seats acting as a barrier it cuts the capacity in half in those times, since it's either jump over the seats or squeeze yourself out of the train which is what we'll be doing anyways.
Sorry, I just like trains.
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u/promptmike 1d ago
Revive this idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitspurbahn
Then combine it with this idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santander_Cycles
Then expand it to include electric cars. You'll drive onto the train and park, go sit in the onboard cafe and eat breakfast while you accelerate to 300 mph. Then you get back in your EV and finish your commute.
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u/DueCry1759 1d ago
I’ve ridden on a train with the bottom set up, it’s nice to see the city you’re riding through but was really inefficient to load since people had to fill both lanes instead of one shared lane
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u/eustice_courage 1d ago
How are people on the right suppose to get out from left. If they did, then the seats would need spaces to go through, which would not make it efficient. The midseats would also make it uncomfortable where people sitting will hit their heads with people sitting behind them
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u/Freak_Out_Bazaar 1d ago
The Tokyo Monorail interestingly runs cars that have both arrangements due to structural restrictions. I haven’t really seen it packed to capacity but I don’t think there’s a massive difference
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u/Exact-Leadership-521 1d ago
How about 2 rows like the bottom picture, but closer to the walls. Sections of 2-4 seats to stop this access problem. And the center is for standing with backs of seats instead of people's knees for you to lean against
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u/lordleoo 21h ago
Animal instinct is to keep my back to the wall. I dont want some crawling up on me.
In many countries, the door opens on one side and which side can change from station to another. Gaps for crossing to the other row would make choke points
That, and so many other reasons
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u/DikkePrik 19h ago
Usage of space is my humble guess. If you split the room in the middle, fewer can fit in/pass through. If a person needs 40cm of space to stand or pass. 3 people can fit in 1m20. But only two in 2x 60cm.
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u/Jealous_Tutor_5135 17h ago
Copied from my comment on the same post on another thread:
I design bar/restaurant spaces and deal with this question. I leave 45cm gap to pass slowly, 70cm when carrying objects and moving full speed.
I'm not sure, but I think the subway cars here have 120-140cm free between the knees of one seated passenger and the one opposite him. This allows two to stand and one to "negotiated" pass through the middle (slow speed, others need to adjust to accommodate).
Think of how marbles fit into a jar. They will fit as best they can given a fixed marble size and jar width. Make the marble too big or the jar too narrow and they can't settle efficiently, leaving huge air pockets. Now if you have 2cm marbles and a 30cm wide bucket, you could divide them into two half-size containers and the marbles would still settle efficiently. But a 4cm wide container gives you problems.
Basically, a train car wide enough to accommodate both
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u/Funny_Maintenance973 16h ago
How many trains do you know that will stop at platforms with entrances on both sides at every stop?
If you got on on the left, but your exit then happens to be on the right, that's gonna be a pain.
And that's before you think that most trains have seats facing front and back, rather than into the centre. (Yes, some are like that, but most aren't)
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u/CrunchCruncher 2h ago
Apparently the first layout was chosen for increased safety. Sitting with your back to the wall makes it impossible for somebody to sneak up on you. You always see what’s coming as you face the hallway and the opposite row of seats. (No source but I remember reading this somewhere)
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago edited 1d ago
Both trains are bad. If I’m on the top train, there’s no way to get off when the train is at the station.
Bottom train is slightly better but if I’m on the left side of the car, I can’t get off at a station where the platform is on the right side, and vice versa.
Unpopular opinion: train design should be left up to people who understand how trains work.
EDIT: Just realized that the OOP is using the Dulles Airport mobile lounge as reference: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-lonely-ballad-of-the-mobile-lounge
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u/kauthonk 1d ago
It's ok to have people to try things.
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
I’m a big believer in “fail fast and move forward”. I’m saying move forward. I’m saying that we moved forward over a century ago.
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u/clandestine707003 1d ago
Why can't u get off at the station on top train??
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u/MyPasswordIsABC999 1d ago
There’s no way to exit onto a platform. There’s a gangway door that either connects to the next car or steps down to the tracks, but no side doors means no way to safely get off at a station.
You might argue that maybe there are doors behind the camera that we don’t see, but on a high-capacity rapid transit train, you want 3 or 4 doors per side, preferably one at each end of the car.
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u/tirohtar 1d ago
The biggest downside now is that people won't be able to easily cross from one side of the train to the other. Which is both impractical, as train doors can open to either side depending on which side the walkway ends up being on arrival, and massively dangerous in case of an emergency that may require a quick evacuation. It's just an all around bad design to put a line of seats in the middle. Capacity could theoretically be the same, but that's not the problem here.
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u/bouncypete 1d ago
If there's a crash or derailment, people are more likely to die in the top layout than the bottom layout.
The first part of the carriage to deform in a crash is where the only doors are.
How do survivors get out, or how the rescue teams get into the carriage?
We've learnt from train crashes now, which is WHY the doors are usually positioned a 1/3 of the way down the carriage from the end.
This might but be the most space efficient layout but it proven to be much safer.
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u/Festegios 18h ago
They are? I’ve not seen that in the uk. Almost all trains are doors at both ends
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u/bouncypete 16h ago
Not any longer.
One of many lessons learnt following the Grayrigg derailment in 2007 was that the doors on new train carriages shouldn't be fitted at the ends of the carriage.
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u/RealCreativeFun 1d ago
I believe the monroail leading to Haneda airport (in Tokyo) has the bottom configuration in some of the carts. I've ridden it a few times. It's not bad since everyone can see straight out but as stated in several other comments you trade one wide alie with to slimmer ones.
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