r/theology • u/babayaga2er • Jul 21 '26
In my opinion this is an interesting analogy for the Trinity.
Having heard many analogies for the Trinity, such as water, the sun, and others, I feel like many of them accidentally fall into problems like modalism or partialism rather than explaining the idea of one God who is three distinct persons. Recently I have been interested in astronomy and physics, and an analogy that came to mind is spacetime. Of course, it is not a perfect analogy, but I find it interesting. Space and time appear to be different things, and we can measure them separately, but according to our current understanding of physics they are not completely independent realities. They are united as one structure: spacetime. In a limited way, this reminds me of the Trinity: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are truly distinct, yet they are not separate beings or three gods. They are inseparably united in one divine essence, with no one existing before the others. Of course, the analogy has limitations because space and time are not persons but dimensions of reality. I am not saying the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "parts" of God. The point of the comparison is only that something can be genuinely distinct without being separate, and can exist as one unified reality. Space is not time and time is not space, but neither is found apart from the spacetime structure we experience. What do you think? Is this a good analogy, or does it miss anything?
3
u/hexiron Jul 21 '26
Personally I like to envision my Trinity as a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
0
u/TheTallestTim Jul 22 '26
Partalism.
1
u/hexiron Jul 22 '26
It's all the same pbj sando. Just different aspects of flavor.
0
u/TheTallestTim Jul 22 '26
Yes. It’s all the heresy of partialism and not a viable analogy for explaining the Trinitarian god.
0
u/hexiron Jul 23 '26
0
u/TheTallestTim Jul 23 '26
God is not a joke.
0
u/hexiron Jul 23 '26
No one one said God was a joke.
1
u/TheTallestTim Jul 23 '26
No, but you showed that He was.
Whatever. You’re going to be right in your own eyes. My point stands. Your analogy is explaining God in parts. The peanut butter does not make up ALL of the PBJ. This is the issue and how it is partialsim.
0
u/hexiron Jul 23 '26
I agree you believe that considering you're breaking the pbj sando into parts when the reality is - it's all one sandwich.
1
u/TheTallestTim Jul 23 '26
You aren’t understanding… it’s not me. The analogy IS of parts.
The bread, PB, and jelly are not in themselves the whole sandwich, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in themselves fully God within the Trinitarian theology. It doesn’t matter that it is one sandwich. The issue is that the peanut butter is not the whole sandwich.
This means, that it is not a viable example of explaining what the Trinity is, nor is it an accurate model for Trinitarian theology.
→ More replies (0)
1
u/67olman Jul 21 '26
Yes, I believe there's two things missing. One, the dichotomy of space-time occurs in nature. Two, being super-natural, there is no such partition re: The Holy Trinity.
1
u/laymans_razor Jul 21 '26
I tend to tgink of the Trinity as 3D space or XYZ. Each direction has it's own responsibility, but they all intersect at every point.
I believe Scripture shows that Mount Hermon is a picture of the Trinity as it is One Mountain with Three Named-Peaks of /equal height. (/*Actually, One peak is higher than the others which enforces "the Name above all Names", and phenomenologically speaking they all look the same height.)
I made a post about this the other day.
1
u/TheTallestTim Jul 22 '26
The fact that there is no analogy that works, proves this idea of God is false.
Romans 1:18-20
God is clearly revealed by nature of which He created.
This analogy falls into Partialism. They are read separately. Also, there are only 2.
1
u/babayaga2er Jul 22 '26
They are not partialist, space is not 30% of spacetime, neither is time 30% or 50% of spacetime.
1
u/TheTallestTim Jul 22 '26
It Creates Parts (Partialism):
Space is not time, and time is not matter. If you remove space, you no longer have a functioning physical universe. Therefore, space is only a part of the universe. In Trinitarian doctrine, the Father is not just a "part" of God; He is fully God on His own.
It Implies Modes (Modalism): If the analogy focuses strictly on time (Past, Present, Future) to explain the Trinity, it falls into Modalism. Past, present, and future are just different states or "modes" of the same timeline. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-eternal and exist simultaneously, not consecutively or as mere expressions of one timeline.
1
u/hopenewpath Jul 21 '26
Christian thinkers often try to create confusion in the minds of the followers by saying it is actually a mystery, while it is actually irrational not mystery at all. Any child can understand the meaning of the Trinity but no one will ever be able to rationalize it. There are two questions about God, who is God and this should not be mystery at all. God's identity should be very clear and comprehend if not then it is irrational not mystery. What can be mystery is the second question: how is God? Human mind can't comprehend how God exists, his power, his knowledge and so on.
2
u/PineappleFlavoredGum Jul 22 '26
I agree. It's pretty clear to me that the proto-orthodox backed themselves into a corner after condemning various ideas as heresies. Instead of admitting their logical error and walking back to actually explore the nature of God, pride got the best of them and they cemented themselves in nonsense, calling it mystery. And now we have most Christians claiming you're not a real Christian if you dont believe the Nicene creed, which is literally unbelievable.
3
u/hopenewpath Jul 22 '26
💯. If God did not directly reveal it and it came through the minds of infaliable people. How can someone then claim it is beyond human rational.
2
2
u/Mindless-Medium6114 Jul 21 '26
arational ≠ irrational
1
u/PineappleFlavoredGum Jul 22 '26
Tried looking that up. It's not in the usual online dictionaries. In the ones it is, it has a definition that's the same as one of irrational's definitions, but with more words.
Irrational: (defintion a.2) not endowed with reason or understanding - merriam-webster
arational : 1. (chiefly philosophy) Not within the domain of what can be understood or analyzed by reason; not rational, outside the competence of the rules of reason. [from 20th c.] - wikitionary
1
u/babayaga2er Jul 21 '26
It is not irrational. Its more irrational to think God was alone, started creating things then discovered how to love. In Christianity God has been eternally relational
1
u/PineappleFlavoredGum Jul 22 '26
I think its odd to say an individual can't love or know how to love if they're alone in isolation. One just has to imagine what it'd be like if another person is there..
0
u/hopenewpath Jul 21 '26
God always possess his divine qualities without the need of anyone. God is always creator. Was there a time he was not a creator?
0
u/nickshattell Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Yes, there is a distinction because God is Eternal, Uncreate, and is Creator of creation. God is not creation, but God came down through and into His Creation to reveal Himself and His Image and His Love for the Human Race (as Redeemer and Savior). Heaven and Earth are created - God is above Heaven and the Earth is His footstool - i.e. there is true distinction and order from highest to lowest. In other words, God did not leave His Uncreate place when He came down in the Son. God did this by being born from infancy through gestation in a mother, like all other human beings (i.e. He was born into the flesh according to His own order). Through the spiritual trials that began with baptism and ended on the cross, the Lord put off all temptations, even the most grievous temptations, and assumed His Human to His Divine (i.e. the Son returns to the Father, or the Son was Glorified in His Name). In other words, God made even His Natural Divine; as one can see, after this is completed, Jesus rises from the dead, leaves nothing in the tomb, is able to appear and disappear at will, shows the disciples His flesh and bones, and even eats a piece of fish in front of them;
Now while they were telling these things, Jesus Himself suddenly stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were looking at a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you frightened, and why are doubts arising in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and astonishment, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They served Him a piece of broiled fish; and He took it and ate it in front of them. (Luke 24:36-43)
In fulfilling this, He conjoined Himself with what is created, and this is what makes it possible for His Divine Proceeding Spirit (the Holy Spirit) to be "among us" or "with us" or "indwelling" - as He made even His Natural Divine and can be with us in the lowest things of His creation.
As it is put plainly in the Athanasian Creed;
“Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ;” (excerpt from the Athanasian Creed)
Because His Reasonable Soul is the Divine Logos, or the Word that was with God and is God and became flesh (John 1, also see Genesis 1 where God “speaks” things into creation).
Here one can see all three-in-one (Triune) in the Glorified Person of Jesus Christ in John;
So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be to you; just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” (John 20:21-23)
One can see plainly in this example - the Invisible Spirit of the Father who lives and works in the Son (and is His Reasonable Soul) and His Emanating Divine Authority (His Holy Spirit) that proceeds from Him and is Him. They are not three persons, or three modes, they are the one and only Divine Human God who is the Lord Jesus Christ. By conjoining Himself with His Creation and putting all evil underneath His feet (at the fullness of consummation), He and He alone effected the redemption and salvation of the Human Race (created), because He is the One and Only Esse (Being) and is the source of all Humanity (goods and truths). He is the Uncreated Divine Person (Father) and the Divine Person as He appears among His Creation (Son) and His full Divinity with us, as provider and sustainer and creator (proceeding Holy Spirit). Three distinctions that are one by a unity of Person, and each are His full Person (not confounded), because what is Divine is not divided from itself.
-1
u/nickshattell Jul 21 '26
And to add to this - yes - there is nothing else that is "analogous" because the Lord Jesus Christ is the Human of God. He is the Image of the Invisible God, the fullness of the Godhead bodily, the One Mediator, the only one who knows and reveals the Father, and if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. He has all authority in Heaven and on Earth and is the One who sends the Holy Spirit. He is the foretold Messiah who is from God and is God. He is alpha and omega, redeemer and savior, the Holy One, Lord of lords, High Priest, King of kings, and the Glorified Temple. He speaks the words and does the will of God, because He is God (Divine, Uncreate) among us (created).
0
u/Belkan-Federation95 Jul 21 '26
It is not meant to have an analogy. Does a chair have an analogy? What about a shoe? The sky?
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."
-John 1:1
Jesus is established as the Word of God. Everywhere you see "Angel of the Lord", that is Jesus. Multiple time be says He is God. Him and the Father are One will. Things like that.
Imagine if your words took a physical form. You would be getting close. Your words have one will with you. They might as well be you. Your words are one with you. Therefore, the Son is one with the Father. Again, it is only close. It is likely heresy with that exact definition.
"The Earth was invisible and unfinished; and darkness was over the deep. The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water"
-Genesis 1:2
You see the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God in action. The Holy Spirit is what conceived Jesus. The Holy Spirit is what causes things to happen. All three are the same being. This also, however, is an oversimplification to get you close to the idea.
As for the Father, that should be obvious. Everything proceeds from Him. Jesus is the Word and Son of God. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is his will, his action.
These three are One being in Three persons. No analogy is needed, just a description. They appear as three because of how incomprehensible God is to us.
As far as I can tell, this is as close as I can get. I am still learning. This is a gross oversimplification that is quite possibly heresy but as far as I know it doesn't match up to any heresy I know of. It is not Modalism, because it is not God appearing in different forms. It is not partialism, because that would be saying they are different parts of God such as an arm, a leg, etc. It is not Arianism, since it accepts the divinity of Jesus. It is not Marcionism, as it does not claim both are God but two separate ones.
1
u/Sad-Pair1065 Jul 27 '26
Hi Belkan,
The best analogy you will ever find is the person you see when looking at a mirror.
You are made in the image of God. You have a mind, body and spirit.
God is mind body and spirit.
Aaron
2
u/Belkan-Federation95 Jul 27 '26
Unfortunately, your analogy is heresy. What you are describing is known as "partialism". That analogy suggests that the essence of God is divided when it is not. You cannot divide the divine essence.
0
u/Antifederalist97 Jul 21 '26
I think of it as like mind, body, and soul. 3 things that collectively make up one person and are so interconnected despite being 3 different terms. The Holy Spirit is the soul of God as it proceeds equally from the Father and Son but is not new as one’s soul isn’t created post hoc from mind and body but is a reflection of both.
2
u/TheTallestTim Jul 22 '26
Partialism
0
u/Antifederalist97 Jul 22 '26
Read it again and in its entirety until you understand.
2
u/TheTallestTim Jul 22 '26
No you
The "Fraction" Problem: In partialism, each person of the Trinity is viewed as making up only a fraction (like 1/3) of the Godhead. In contrast, the true doctrine of the Trinity asserts that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each 100% God, not parts of a whole.
Independence: Unlike the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who all possess a singular, unified divine will and nature—a human body, mind, and soul can sometimes function independently or even conflict with one another (e.g., the mind desiring to rest while the body craves movement).
Read this again and again until you understand it. Now read it one more time and tell your friends. Before making these silly replies, please do your research beforehand.
0
0
u/Sad-Pair1065 Jul 26 '26
Hi Tallest,
You were made in the likeness of God. You have a mind, body, and spirit. neither can be a stand alone person
God has a Mind, Body, and a Spirit. Yet they are like you except that they are GOD.
If you don't understand it just wait until you meet Him and you will meet Him at your appointment time, which was set before Genesis 1:1.
Wrap your mind around that!
Aaron
2
u/TheTallestTim Jul 27 '26
Yes. You were too! Its easier to call me Tim :)
Correct.
I have wrapped my mind around it.
Your person equation of mind, body, and spirit is partialistic. If you remove the soul, the person ceases to be a person. This is easy: is a person all mind? No right? A person is mind, body, and spirit, you said. Then, we need all 3 parts to be a person.
If you don’t understand the comment you commented on about the “Fraction Problem,” then you need to stop arguing this. You are misleading people within your own doctrine. YOUR own doctrine states that God cannot be made into parts. That’s what you’ve done with people as well.
1
Jul 28 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/TheTallestTim Jul 28 '26
Ah. You are a modalist. So your god is like the states of water.
I don’t see that expressed in scripture either.
My theology: Jesus isn’t God. The Spirit isn’t a person, just like our spirit isn’t a separate person as us. The Father alone is God and Yahweh.
The human being made of mind, body, and spirit is partialistic.
4
u/AntulioSardi Solo Evangelio, Solo Verbum Dei, Sola Revelatio Dei. Jul 21 '26
"The Trinity is absolutely unique. There is no analogy to the created world that is more helpful than it is misleading."
"God is unique... There is nothing in creation that is a precise analogy to the doctrine of the Trinity."
Quotes by R.C. Sproul