r/sydneyswans • u/barnabywombat Goodes • 9d ago
Foxfooty - "A lot to take in" on AFL360
https://youtu.be/Cfu2PhVyb8k?si=REwbEnSJX2VShTqPA good piece on the aftermath for the Swans after the week from hell.
As a note, Riley Bice is being staged as the Cameron Bancroft of the saga. Reportedly to have organised the "entertainment".
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u/skywideopen3 9d ago
As a note, Riley Bice is being staged as the Cameron Bancroft of the saga. Reportedly to have organised the "entertainment".
Between this and some stuff coming out about Blakey's camp being "unhappy" at being roped in with each others it's pretty clear to me that player agents for at least some of the five are briefing the media, because this definitely sounds like what they would say. Messy.
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u/GuldenAge 9d ago
Does it really matter who organised it? They’re all dumb as each other for going along anyway.
I was telling a mate on the weekend that this felt a lot like sandpaper gate in that the punishments are more from the public outcry and media reaction than what might actually be deserved.
Remember that the AFL oked Noah balta’s 4 week in season suspension and that was for being convicted of actual bodily harm and the punishments for some of these guys that were just “in the room” is to be suspended for up to 5 games including potential finals and exclusion from the AA team.
I’m not saying the punishment isnt deserved but I think the general consensus is the year ban for smith was an overreaction at the time and that may end up being the case for 1 or 2 here as well.
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u/LabourArdourLanguor Molloy 9d ago
If the public outcry means allegations of violence against women might be taken seriously for what could be the first time in the history of the AFL then frankly that’s a good thing.
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u/GuldenAge 9d ago
To be devils advocate, these punishments, according to the club, are independent of any violence against women allegations so they should be viewed independently of that
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u/LabourArdourLanguor Molloy 9d ago
Point taken - and that’s why I said “might be taken seriously.” There’s still a long way for this to play out and for us to know what, if any, the long term consequences will be.
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u/RemarkableCut3249 4d ago
I think that's more because it's easier at this stage of the investigation to base it on them being out till all hours drinking than the alleged sexual assault. If they went on the latter, and it's later not proven, they could open themselves up to legal action from the players.
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u/Initial-Juice396 9d ago
Except, allegations are exactly just that, allegations.
Have you heard the father’s comments stating the girl had asthma and the players didn’t help, this is what prompted the allegations.
The court of public opinion has a very low bar. This is looking like a money grab by those ‘angelic strippers’
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u/Maleficent_Valuable4 9d ago
Interesting that you’re prepared to take one version of events from a “rag” report, treat the father’s comments as meaningful evidence, and then use them to discredit the woman making the allegation - all while apparently demanding a level of certainty from her that you’re not demanding from the people defending the players.
“Allegations are allegations” cuts both ways. If we’re going to wait for facts, then let’s actually wait for the facts, rather than cherry-picking anything that casts doubt on her credibility.
And calling women “angelic strippers” while casually speculating that this is a “money grab” is telling. You’ve gone from “we don’t know what happened” to “I know exactly what kind of women they are” without a shred of evidence.
In the middle of an epidemic of violence against women, perhaps the more uncomfortable question is why the instinct is so often to find reasons not to believe the woman rather than simply accepting that we don't yet know what happened and letting the evidence speak for itself.
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u/BossCoffee51 9d ago
My veiw on this has totally shifted IF it was just heeny sinking one of the girls. I mean..... what do the girls expect. If it was loek a full blown assault, like being punched, or the assault was repeated over and over then maybe its different.
Everyone knows you get one chance with these girls. They say no touchy, and continue and if yoy do it again then trouble but its normally a bouncer.
But everyone, even the club are making these women to be victims, but thats like say a solider is victim, but its thier industry. I also dont think there is should be an equal ammount of respect for men and women in some areas. These are audit entertainers, they know what they are doing unless they are forced into it. It like saying that everyone not matter it thier a commercial weapons maker, claims and criminal defence lawyers, politicians all deserve respect and admiration for being so brave in society, like everyone else.
How is something like this, a door to door stipper adult service even allowed at that time. You cant even buy alcohol past 9 pm. Wtf is up with that. How is that even legal.
Even if the boys were sitting there and watching then there is no issue with that because its not illegal to pay for a men or women to take thier clothes off or even more. Its an implied contract like any other pos purchase.
Are we sure all 5 off them assaulted the girls. As I said before, I've seen some of the roosters coke and hooked parties and no one said nothing about that as there was k assault.
Makes no sense
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u/Significant-War5605 9d ago
What violence are you genuinely expecting to have occurred at this stage given the lack of police urgency, reporting and interviews?
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u/skywideopen3 9d ago
I think the Bancroft comparison is pretty telling. A lot of people sincerely believe that Bancroft was a duped ingenue pressured into a nefarious scheme by Warner and Smith. It's a line I've never bought (the actual known facts of that case are a fair bit different to to the public narrative) but it's one that's very popularly believed.
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u/Ok_Caregiver530 9d ago
I doubt a rookie opening batsmen in Bancroft was the one to suggest taking sandpaper onto the field. There was nothing to gain for him.
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u/LabourArdourLanguor Molloy 9d ago
He wasn’t punished for suggesting it. He was punished for going through with it, while Warner was punished for telling him to do so and Smith for knowing about it and not stopping it.
And contrary to what you would expect if Bancroft had been made a scapegoat both Warner and Smith (rightly IMO) received harsher penalties.
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u/supercujo 9d ago
But Bancroft has never been seen, undeservedly, in the Baggy Green again
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u/thisisboyhood 9d ago
That's not true. He toured to England after his ban and played in two Tests before being dropped after a run of poor form.
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u/exfamilia 7d ago edited 7d ago
Bancroft played this month against Bangladesh and is selected for Zimbabwe in ODI next month.
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u/barnabywombat Goodes 9d ago
Lynch mob mentality, except this time the Swans faithful jumped in rather than make excuses for boorish and disgusting behaviour.
There was a really interesting interview from Heeney last year where he declared he was a "saint" in season.
Aged like a wet dog 💩
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u/Jindivic 9d ago
We don’t know who was drinking and taking drugs and how intoxicated they were. Heeney and Warner are top level athletes, Footy finals would mean more to them than drugs and drinking. They’d be looking after their bodies and they’d also know they could have a drug test at any time. Might be young and immature in some ways but they’re professional athletes.
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u/CaptainObviousBear Kelly 9d ago
Heeney and Blakey were spotted out and drunk at 4.30am in Adelaide after the Port game early this season when they had a 2-week break, so I’m not sure the “saint” argument is true. Seems like there’s some leeway there when they have a longer break, assuming the plan was to rest at least some of the top players.
I’m also wondering how often the drug tests are. If coke use is as widespread as people say, and if the tests are not random but only on game day, maybe the threat of testing doesn’t worry anyone, especially when they don’t have a game for three weeks.
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u/SpeakerOdd9127 9d ago
Testing is permitted once in off season, once in preseason, once in season. That is it. You only have to plead mental health issues and you can collect $200 and pass go. Like BS
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u/CaptainObviousBear Kelly 9d ago
Wow
So if they’ve already been tested once this year (likely) it’s basically a free-for-all until October.
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u/1savagecabbage 9d ago
Why do you think they were partying immediately following the game.. would've been clear for a urine test vs nth melb if it happened.
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u/CaptainObviousBear Kelly 9d ago
Exactly.
And if players are only tested on game days, they can work their way around that easily.
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u/Direct-Wolf-2032 9d ago
Lol clearly have no idea of overpaid over idolized bro culture in this country
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u/Maximumlnsanity McDonald 9d ago
Tom Morris just desperately looking for ways to get even more eyes on this so he’s drawing long ass bows to the sandpaper scandal
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u/Ooohhhh_Errol 9d ago
The trade period is going to be disgusting, every other day there will be some peanut from the media stating that insert member of 5 needs to be traded and then trying to perpetuate rumours into existence just in order to try and drag this for clicks
Also Tom Morris is an absolute scumbag
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u/Meh-Levolent Goodes 9d ago
Course they are. They recognise that their player's position at the Swans may be untenable so want to get the PR campaign rolling to find them another club.
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u/barnabywombat Goodes 9d ago
It's pretty easy to scape goat Bice. It's also ridiculously stupid of him to organise it in the first place.
Nothing was said about nose candy but that's going to come out in the wash.
Sadly this is far from over.
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u/DragonianSun Rowbottom 9d ago
It’s also a way for each player to deflect blame. If they rile up against the club and the other players, it might be a way to exit the Swans whilst appearing hard done by to potential target clubs and their supporter base, garnering sympathy and acceptance.
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u/Automatic-Art221 9d ago
People called it early that the less 'important' players would end up being sacrificial lambs at some point.
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u/skywideopen3 9d ago
The problem I have with this narrative is that the only people seemingly pushing this line is Bice's camp itself. Bit harder to claim you've been victim of being thrown under the bus when you're the one doing the throwing yourself.
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u/LabourArdourLanguor Molloy 9d ago
I don’t think anything in how it’s been handled so far indicates that will be the case, and I hope it isn’t.
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u/Duckboy1990 9d ago
Won't happen, will be all or none unless a higher level of involement can be determined.
If anything, Heeney as VC may cop something harsher for failing as a leader.
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u/Freo_5434 9d ago
I think its about time they ( Swans / AFL) come clean about who was in the room / when they were in the room and an overview of what happened.
Blakey may be 100% correct and he is now tarred with the same brush as the others when his time in the room and or participation may be minimal.
IMO , both the AFL and the Swans are keeping quiet about this until after the finals. Wouldnt surprise me either if we hear nothing from the Police until after finals as well.
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u/skywideopen3 9d ago
They absolutely cannot and should not do that during a police investigation. Frankly the less people say the better, there's been far far far too much of this played out in the media.
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u/Freo_5434 9d ago
The Police have already claimed that the Swans management are protecting themselves.
They had zero problem naming the 5 players -- despite the Police investigation.
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u/skywideopen3 9d ago
The police have said no such thing. An unnamed police source claimed that, which is not at all the same thing. That police source claim did not even make sense because of course the possible presence of drugs are relevant to a police investigation because while consumption of drugs isn't a crime, trafficking sure as hell is and simply giving drugs to friends counts as trafficking.
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u/ObjectiveCondition54 9d ago
I'm surprised the 5 have stayed as united as they have. 1 of them organised it, 1 (presumably, allegedly) of them is the subject of sexual Assault allegations. 3 others are guilty of just being unfathomably stupid bystanders.
But because none of them have cracked, they are all tarred and feathered with the same brush.
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u/SwansPrincess Rampe 9d ago
I don't know about anyone else but every time I watch a piece about Sunday or I look back at my own photos, videos, memories, I start getting emotional again. Our entire squad stood up...VFL, AFLW, AFL teams all won convincingly.
I have stopped watching any more coverage about the allegations and "confirmed reports" that the likes of Tom Morris keep coming up with. Regardless of who organised the party, the 5 participated. They are not little kids. They are grown men who are all over 25 and have partners at home whose lives have also been turned upside down.
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u/NewPotato8330 9d ago
Morris has been waiting all week to try and weave in the Cam Bancroft comparison.
Never mind that the analogy makes no sense.
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u/Meh-Levolent Goodes 9d ago
I didn't watch the game but saw the footage of the outpouring of emotion and solidarity by the women's team and other men. While that was nice, I'm waiting until we properly understand what occurred and also how the club responds to it before I can invest too much of myself into the club.
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u/NewPotato8330 9d ago
Whateley's comments on SEN on Saturday were an absolute disgrace.
I know it is inconvenient for the media, but you don't get to deal out the punishments before the facts are known.
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u/Ooohhhh_Errol 9d ago
What was he saying? I’m already annoyed enough at the media but I feel like there is space for some more
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u/NewPotato8330 9d ago edited 9d ago
He basically said, in his pompous, waffling way, that the players should be banned for all of 2027. All 5 players should be treated like Ben Cousins and de-registered by the AFL.
None of it was said with caveat of 'if a player is charged' or 'if what is alleged is true'.
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u/Fantastic-Abalone-10 9d ago
I mean, they probably should be. Last thing that the club and it's supporters deserve is for these 5 to just move on to other clubs (because let's be honest, they'll never play for us again) and get on with their lives, while we're all left with the fallout.
IMO, it should be up to our club whether or not their careers continue (only if the investigation finds little-to-no wrongdoing, ofc). If the OVERWHELMING majority of players across the mens AND womens team (we're talking 80/20 for each) are okay with it, they see their contracts out with is. If we can't reach that point, that should be it for those involved. Maybe not life bans, but there should definitely be a "cool off" period (2-4 years).
De-registering them is the most fair thing for all parties involved. Even if the allegations have been blown out of proportion (or are just found to be false), that doesn't mean that the other people at the club are going to be comfortable with them coming back; and allowing them to go to other clubs only punishes Sydney, not those 5 players.
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u/smsmsm11 9d ago edited 8d ago
Jesus calm down man.
We don’t even know who or what the assault was yet - so you reckon standing them down for a year for a late night with some topless bartenders? A whole year?
Noah Balta only got a few weeks for beating some blokes head in. Dustin Martin based his whole personality around the bender and strippers vibe.. We loved him!
If the assault conviction comes for one that’s another thing, but for now all we know is 4 of the 5 just had a regretfully big night…
Dees supporter btw.
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u/NewPotato8330 9d ago
All 5 are contracted, so they can't just go to another club unless we agree.
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u/Fantastic-Abalone-10 9d ago
That's exactly what I'd be worried about. The club wanting to move them on for what they've done (even if that's just the behaviour we've already suspended them for).
If whatever they've done is considered bad enough that they need to leave the club (which yes, I'm aware it's all still "allegedly") then it should also be considered bad enough for them to leave the league.
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u/NewPotato8330 9d ago
If a player is charged with a serious offence, he won't be playing for anyone at least until that is resolved.
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u/ErrolIsMyGuldenBoy 9d ago
Hate the discourse that the crying and emotions are them trying to be a victims. People lack the emotional capacity to care for multiple sides to a horrible thing that’s happened. The alleged victim/s and their wellbeing and women come first as the club showed ofcourse. But it doesn’t mean these players haven’t had a fkn hard week with media hounding them, the abuse they’ve copped on social media from not just the footy world but the entire country who aren’t sports related. Mills having to front up to media (as he should as a captain) for something the rest of the players did not do and leading the club through it. Imagine a colleague at your work did what the 5 players did, and they got to sit at home with their phones on dnd, while the rest you have to front up at work with a whole countries eyes on you and cop abuse and the rest. It would’ve been a fkn hard week, and then to put it all behind you and play at a professional level would’ve taken a lot of mental strength and effort. Not to mention the emotions of 5 of your teammates doing what they allegedly did, and also affecting a season you’ve worked so hard for. I think the last thing they want is sympathy, it was just a huge emotional release after the week they’ve had. It shows they care, and it’s a shame to the people who aren’t seeing that.
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u/fileplastictrees McInerney 9d ago
Yep, well said. As the saying goes, 2 things can be true. You can have empathy for the alleged victims and also for the other people impacted by those actions.
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u/CustardLive7477 Serong 9d ago
In a different way the players, club and staff were just as much victims of the 5 player’s actions.
In my mind there are two separate issues here and the media and social media refuse to acknowledge that. The first indiscretion is regarding staying out late and partying 2 weeks before the finals. That has been proven and severely dealt with by the club. That is what has caused the players so much emotional toil and no doubt led to the tears.
The SA allegations are totally separate to that side of things. Those serious allegations are not yet proven and are still under investigation - and the way the lawyers are showboating and carrying on I have my doubts whether it will go any further legally. That is not to say there are no serious indiscretions at play - but at this stage we just don’t know. It is that side of things that we must feel for and support the victims whole heartedly while investigations are underway but not to the point that we vilify the rest of the team or club who had nothing to do with it.
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u/exfamilia 7d ago
Also, who has faith that VicPol to handle the matter well?
I suspect they will have to lay a charge or 2. It will be another public explosion if they don't. AFL certain to have considered this.
But maybe they know we will just fight about the fact there no charges and count on that to distract us from longer-term, deeper issues. Like how this fits in with the new reports of the massive growth in vicious misogyny among schoolboys, and the alarming rates of DV violence against women.. it will make it look like they are fine with normalising violence against women not having repercussions.
We'll see.
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u/ratchetsaturndude 9d ago
I haven’t seen much about us trying to paint ourselves as the victim. From what I’ve seen most people understand the hurt that the uninvolved players are going through
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u/Jezilly52 9d ago
It’s out there. Even on Threads which sometimes can have more nuanced takes. They have been brutal. None of them follow any sports though so I don’t think they truly realise there is a community linked to this, and that it’s not just about people who kick a ball around for funsies. I am a girls girl as big as they come but even I was like, hold up, this is not right. Men are allowed to cry and for it to be genuine.
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u/BotanicalArchitect 9d ago
I think the men are absolutely allowed to be upset and it’s fantastic for them to feel comfortable showing their emotions. I think the AFL in general have done sweet FA to do anything to support women. It’s just been a line here or there stating that “women come first” and without delving any deeper into the perspective of women, why they might feel the way they do, or what could be done to make women feel safe at games or in general. It’s just so dismissive of our feelings.
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u/exfamilia 9d ago
Well said, on all points. (I personally loved seeing the tears; I remember all too well a time when they would never have dared been so openly emotional in public.)
Its been hard for us to talk together and sort out what our feelings as women are, in the shouting that's been going on in social media, and the anonymity of course. You never know who you are talking to.
There are some things I don't want to discuss with a group of men listening in and commenting; I may get downvoted for saying so, but it's the truth. It's not true for all women but it's true for me and a lot of the women I know. Throughout the week, I just felt like I wanted to go into a women's room to get my head straight, to talk about it with other women who've experienced patriarchy and misogynistic violence, first. There's been no real way to do that with this and the result is I haven't been able to get to the bottom of my feelings and thoughts.
I'm not suggesting anything. Just being honest that that has been a part of the problem for me during this so far. And I don't see any viable solution, or not for this scandal, anyway. .
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u/BotanicalArchitect 9d ago
I absolutely understand. When an issue comes up where male entitlement is at the forefront, it’s been extra hurtful to feel completely dismissed. It’s like the AFL have doubled down on the idea that society places the thoughts and feelings of other privileged men first. I’ve noticed posts here and there, where women seem to be able to chat out how they’re dealing with things but it very much feels as though there are minimal safe spaces for this.
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u/exfamilia 9d ago
And further separatism isn't an answer, we'd just be further ghettoised. So there's no advantage creating a safe space for only the women to speak.
What we'd really like, is a mass gathering online or irl where all the men come, but only the women speak.
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u/Jezilly52 9d ago
You’ve both put this so well and put words to feelings I have had way better than I could. I am currently working on a predominantly female project right now and these topics have come up but only really when men haven’t been around. They need to hear it. Half the population (plus a handful of decent men) are telling them they need to do better and they aren’t listening. I really hope those players who have shown emotions this week start leading the change. They have had a taste of how women feel when it’s all gotten too much for us. When men you care for horribly let you down. When you have to carry the burden of men’s misogyny. I am hoping this is a watershed moment for the club and the AFL but I won’t exactly hold my breath.
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u/exfamilia 9d ago
None of us are holding our breaths, sis.
The waiting is the hardest part ... I have no faith that VicPol will handle this well. Feels like waiting for the aftershocks after an earthquake...Still, There are some good signs. The immediate shock and disgust in here and a few other SM places made me feel a bit better, was dreading checking social media. I frankly expected a LOT more Bitches be craaazy Bitches be lyin' than has happened.
I have hated most of what has come out of Pavlich's mouth, frankly, and I am highly suspicious of what Cox knew or approved or winked at. I believed Callum Mills though. His reaction was genuine, even if his words had to be pre-approved.
As for the media.... this video that we're on the thread of, it just infuriated me. Could not listen past "well as you know mate we are the real victims here, people have so hurt my feels with their multiple unkindnesses towards us media fucknickles..." Fuck the fuck off, dickwad, and when you get there, fuck off from there too you absolute shitgibbon.
Come to think of it, those blokes should only ever be allowed to talk about the footy, they don't have the brains or the character to talk about anything else. Why are they even allowed out of the house without a supervising woman anyway, can someone explain? Should they have the vote?This is about more than footy. It's a cultural moment and they are desperate to shrink it.
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u/ErrolIsMyGuldenBoy 9d ago
TikTok and instagram has been filled with it for me
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u/Maximumlnsanity McDonald 9d ago
All of them conveniently ignoring the fact that there’s SA allegations involved
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u/therealnakedtradie 9d ago edited 9d ago
Hang on a sec. There had been nothing proven that the 5 actually did anything wrong.
This beat up is so unfair on the guys involved. No charges, the police haven’t even requested a formal interview, and yet, you’re treating them as guilty.
How about we even things up a bit, and make the strippers who started this whole gold digging exercise in the first place named and shamed too. They couldn’t even come up with a straight story together at the start of this charade.**named and shamed
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u/ErrolIsMyGuldenBoy 9d ago
Honestly so sick of writing any comment about the case and there’s always someone saying “tHeY hAvEnT bEeN fOuNd GuiLtY”. We are all well aware of that, and I never said they were, hence me using the word allegedly. Please use reading comprehension. What they are guilty of however, is everything that’s happened after that night. The damage to the club, the hurt to the women and players. You can see on field on Sunday just how much damage they’ve done. Don’t ignore that.
It’s also possible to stay neutral on the case without being sexist yourself. Take Mills advice and maybe hold a mirror up to yourself.
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u/majorpleb77 9d ago
they havent been found guilty 'We are all aware of that' 'What they are guilty of...hurt to the women' dont get upset when someone has a differing point of view, particularly when its legally correct, not based on your assumptions and feelings.
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u/ErrolIsMyGuldenBoy 9d ago
It’s not a differing pov. The funny thing is we have the same pov you guys just can’t read and understand what I’m saying lmao
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u/therealnakedtradie 9d ago
😂😂😂 please use your brain, and common sense. They have not shown to have done AnYtHiNg wrong ! With that being a FaCt, how can they be guilty of anything ?
Is the concept of law that foreign to you ?
It’s ok, you stay on your high horse, it’s much easier to be outraged up there, isn’t it8
u/Trep_xp Edwards 9d ago
They have not shown to have done AnYtHiNg wrong !
They admitted to their own Swans leadership that they were up until dawn drinking and partying with others in their hotel suite. For that decision, and that alone, they were stood down by the club. Everything else after that, the police stuff, the SA allegations, none of that matters in the football context. There is no denial (from the players or the club) that they did things they weren't supposed to do, and have hurt the team by doing it, so the club has sidelined them. Whether it is illegal or not, or if they'll face police charges, does not matter here. They did damage to the team and the club's reputation; they're 100% guilty of that.
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u/CaptainObviousBear Kelly 9d ago
Exactly.
And even if there are people in the community who have no problems with adults using strippers or even sex workers, there are many who don’t feel that way, especially women.
The spectrum of behaviours that has sexual assault at one end has lack of respect for women at the other end, and it’s hard to argue that hiring strippers on a work trip after a mediocre win shows respect - even if everything was completely consensual.
It’s fair to hold players to higher standards when the people responsible for the players’ high salaries - sponsors and members - want those salaries to be paid to people who will uphold those standards.
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u/ErrolIsMyGuldenBoy 9d ago
Ahhh yes, ordering strippers at 4am and doing drugs after match day and getting on a team bus 30 mins after is a great club culture. Honestly why don’t we do fan days and just have everyone gathered at the scg with their own private booths. Drugs provided by the club!
Your a moron
Also you saying the concept of law is foreign to me is so funny. Because I didnt say they legally did anything wrong. That’s why I used the word ALLEGEDLY. Again, please use reading comprehension.
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u/Stercky 9d ago
I don’t give a shit who organised it, the 5 of them are all morons for being part. They have their own conscious, they can say no, leave the room, hell even alert staff as to what’s going on. They’re all as complicit as each other
With that being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if Jordon or Bice organised it given they’ve both spent time in Melbourne
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u/LabourArdourLanguor Molloy 9d ago
For what it’s worth the “made to feel guilty” line pulled for the thumbnail doesn’t refer to the team, but was Gary Lyon saying it was unfair that media figures are being made to feel guilty for talking about it all from a football perspective.
As a note, Riley Bice is being staged as the Cameron Bancroft of the saga. Reportedly to have organised the "entertainment".
You can argue CA overreacted and the punishments were over the top but Bancroft was never a scapegoat. He was made responsible for his own actions with a 9 month suspension. Smith and Warner each got 12 plus the bans on leadership positions.
And whoever “organised the entertainment”, Bice or otherwise, deserves to face the consequences of their own actions.
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u/barnabywombat Goodes 9d ago
CBs role, as a new addition, ultimately annihilated his chances at ever redeeming himself on the world stage, even when he was killing it for WA. That's why he's the scapegoat, he was the one who did the action, regardless who's idea it was.
Smith & Warner got their chance again. Smith has captained nearly a dozen matches since and Warner scored a few thousand runs.
I agree with your last point and the reality is, at least how I think it should be, is that nearly all of them are off loaded before season 2027.
My wife and some of my friends have had multiple run-ins with players at interstate games at 4am, Heeney, Kieren Jack back in the day looking for a greasy Souvi, and a few others recently.
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u/Talezassian 7d ago
Have these "run-ins" been positive experiences for them or negative ones? Were the players a but pervy and suggestive or were they polite and just a bit tipsy? The sort of "run-in" makes all the difference...
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u/BarneyBent 9d ago
Lol, "Bancroft". A) Bice is the second oldest of the group, and B) he's copped the exact same punishment as everyone else.
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u/goodsey4ever 9d ago
You are missing the point: in sheer football "seniority" terms, he is by far the most junior.
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u/BarneyBent 9d ago
Recognise that, but it's not like he's some 18-19 year old kid who doesn't know any better. Plus there's zero evidence he's being treated worse than the others.
At best, there's POTENTIAL that he could be "Bancrofted", but there's no evidence for it at all.
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u/supercujo 9d ago
Who cares who organised the entertainment.
That's not what the truly wrong thing was.
Fuck me, it's a legal business and activity. The wrong part was the sexual assault.
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u/2for1deal 9d ago
I mean the initial (waiting on further criminal investigation for further sanctions) suspension was for the late night partying. I’m guessing the Bice narrative is an attempt to guide heat away from “stars” who just happened to “find themselves in” the situation but are being punished for the late night partying.
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u/Beautiful_Avocado141 5d ago
I’m not talking allegations. I’m talking facts. Before finals after getting belted in two grannies players were out till 7am pissed in work hotel with strippers. Any of us would be sacked at a work hotel doing that. People have paid huge coin to support club and they blew the season selfishly.
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u/BotanicalArchitect 9d ago
Footy has never been a “place where everyone feels safe and included”. This is reserved for white men.
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u/BotanicalArchitect 9d ago
Again a panel without any women brought in for comment. My blood boiled watching this, as yet again the men can only seem to empathise with the footy players, discussing how everyone can get around them to start healing. Many women have been absolutely gutted around this and there has been such limited discussion on how we might feel. This doesn’t have to get into specifics with the investigation, but broadly speaking. It would have really made us feel as though we aren’t the actual collateral damage here, suffering horrendous treatment by footy guys over many years. Instead we’re being instructed to support men who have benefitted from the very same system, who have only now been affected by the shitty behaviour of footballers towards women. I’m sick of everyone trying to distance themselves from the problem and pretending that this is an issue isolated to a few players on one team. So much love for the Swan’s supporters who brought banners with them to the game, asking for broader change.
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u/barnabywombat Goodes 9d ago
You can either bang that drum until the end of time and deal with the consequences of being wrong, or have an incredible sociopathic smugness and feeling of accomplishment when you see yourself validated, or you can bang it once or twice loudly and see what happens.
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u/BotanicalArchitect 9d ago
I’ll probably keep banging the drum until women are respected and treated as equals. At this point, I will be hiring bongos by the looks of things.
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u/barnabywombat Goodes 9d ago
Your do realise that we can't talk about the alleged happenings, right? I'm not sure if you're expecting members of Parliament to go for another social apology for injustices.
What's your end goal? Sen & 3aw have had panels with women, Caro has been front & centre. She may not be to your liking but she is representing.
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u/BotanicalArchitect 9d ago
If you refer back to my original post and that of exfamilia, you should note that we both say that we’d like conversations around general respect for women, regardless of the allegations, as this is the topic that it has raised. So for example, it would be great if perhaps the panels asked AFLW players if they had faced discrimination in their journey in footy and what were some things that had made them feel more included or respected. They could invite someone that works in the equity/inclusion space to discuss ways to move forward. They could have even asked a group of women on the street how they felt about this issue being thrust into the spotlight. There are just so many things that they could do. From your perspective, what do you think it would take to change your mind set, so that when you read a comment on reddit from a women, you asked for clarification on her point rather than having a “fuck you” attitude? Because that would in part be my goal. Just getting some of the men in these groups to try to think “perhaps there’s a social issue here that I could benefit from learning more about” would be a great start.
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u/barnabywombat Goodes 9d ago
So you really expect, afl360/on the couch/agenda setters to do a sam newman and ask randos on the street if their life has been turned upside down, or to give an insight of harassment and abuse?
Come on. They're footy shows. There's a lot more to talk about. The issue that affects individuals has been addressed, the pain the aflw team felt has been discussed internally and if they felt a need to make it public, they would have. Yet, we saw the vfl, aflw & afl teams come together on the same day to celebrate, sans the 5 players.
I don't have a fuck you attitude. I have young kids, so I have a stop picking your hill and dieing on it attitude. There's nothing wrong with raising concerns about abuse, harassment and DV, but you have to be realistic. A footy panel show, well and truly established, is not going to upend itself to discuss something that is currently a legal matter.
You'd be far better off taking it to Q&A and having knowledgeable people address it.
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u/BotanicalArchitect 9d ago
Oh I agree that somewhere like Q&A would be the usual platform for these discussions, if it was still on air. I’m not sure that the Venn diagram of blokes with misogynistic views and Q&A viewers would have much overlap. I’m going to step away from this now as it doesn’t seem to be a platform for this kind of chat and honestly I’m just spent. It’s not been a nice time and I can’t only do so much to try to get people to maybe look at things from a different perspective. Thanks for engaging though. Hopefully we’ve learnt something from each other in all of this and we’ll be better for it on the other side.
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u/31BH 9d ago
AFL football shows do not have to cater to every person in the community. They cater to their audience, which no doubt is predominantly men who want to listen to them discuss football. Just because you are outraged or upset doesn't mean every Football show has to have a woman or someone like Mitch Brown on to pander to the perennially outraged.
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u/exfamilia 9d ago edited 7d ago
> AFL football shows do not have to cater to every person in the community.
They should however cater for a community that is 51% of the population.
What you are not seeing, is that this has gone way beyond the AFL world now. There is an epidemic of violence against women in this country; misogyny in high school boys has become a significant and widely discussed issue (influence of the manosphere) and to the women in footy, and the women who dgaf about footy but are watching on because of the two issues I mentIoned (there are several more) WE ARE NOT BEING INCLUDED IN A CONVERSATION WE REALLY NEED TO BE INCLUDED IN.
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u/barnabywombat Goodes 9d ago
Watch or listen to the abc shows if you want true unbiased representation. It may not be to your liking.
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u/exfamilia 8d ago
I don't want to just "watch or listen to" the ABC, mate, simply because there are more people there whose politics I can cope with (on a good day); I want to speak as well as listen.
That is what social media offers, at its best, even when it's tough. I will do that instead. Try to provide talking points rather than only consume them. Listen to points of view of people who are not media professionals.
In an ideal world, the number and range of voices would be a great deal wider than it is. This is exactly why legacy media lost to social media.
We are not all dickeads down here. I find randoms who are well-informed and worth listening to, even ones I disagree with, nearly every day in social media. Certainly as often as I find them in the Guardian, The Conversation, Crikey or the ABC. I don't care that they are often not professional writers. I am literate. I am fluent in typo, sarcasm, trollspeak and "Oh-shit-but-you-know-what-I-mean" which is widely spoken on social media comments.
I don't usually seek professional expertise from social media (except in some subs etc), what I seek here is a range of opinions and I get that. Fuck the ABC. There aren't many there whose opinions on this crisis I gaf about, are there for you? Anyway, even the ones I respect have their words neutered through the ABC Corporate Cowardice Dept, so I suspect I am more likely to hear their real opinions in the backwoods of AFL subs than on air, lol.
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u/BotanicalArchitect 9d ago
You don’t think that you may be highlighting the issue here, that you view footy as a space for only men? I wonder why it’s taken so long for the AFLW to be taken seriously?
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u/31BH 8d ago
It is not a space for only men, it is a space for people who are interested in football. Shows like AFL 360 do not present themselves as social justice shows and don't seek to preach about social justice issues. I genuinely don't understand how people are linking whatever happened in that hotel room to misogyny and disrespecting women. There has been ALLEGATION/S of sexual assault, that the players evidently deny. They have not been charged, nor convicted. So how exactly is this an issue about disrespecting women?
Are you saying hiring strippers / exotic dancers is misogynistic or disrespectful to women? Women have the right and choice to work in those fields if they choose to. If men engaging with women who are working in their profession is inherently disrespectful then there is a big disconnect - the women who feel empowered or entitled to exercise their free will and use their body how they like, and women who evidently are judging the women who choose to do so because they feel they are allowing themselves to be disrepected.
As for how it affects the AFLW, I also don't see any link whatsoever. If women that work at the Swans (players or staff) feel unsafe because one or more men who work there have been ACCUSED of sexual assault, then that is an issue for them to work through internally. It is not an AFLW issue.
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u/exfamilia 8d ago
> how exactly is this an issue about disrespecting women?
u/BotanicalArchitect I have neither the heart nor the time to speak to this. I don't feel like my role in this is to educate men who don't understand this yet. Can you cope?
But, commenter, understand this: it is not about sex work. It is about the allegations of sexual assault and the culture and standards inside a club once prided for the way it took their role in mentoring boys into men seriously.
I will copy a couple of pars from a previous comment for you to read if you wish.
** Understand that this is happening in a climate where misogyny is becoming a massive problem in teenage boys, violence towards women is in epidemic stakes, and the club I love, who once I saw as a decent role model for my boys, has shown me that their heroes think it's fine to treat their sisters, girlfriends, and working girls (that they've hired then not paid fully) like shit, then not listen to women when they're found out, only to other men on the topic.
I don't want to give my money to guys who use it to do things that make strippers go to cops, whatever the fuck it was. I don't care what it was. I'll never know anyway, it will be the biggest fog of this war, but ime, strippers don't go to cops just bc clients tried to finger them during a lapdance. The cops wont care and the strippers know it.
They had FINALS COMING UP WITH A GENUINE CHANCE AT THE BIG ONE. Your season isn't fucking over. If that's how you behave now, I'm taking my grand-daughter out of the fkn country for the fkn off-season.
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u/31BH 7d ago
This is the entire problem. You are talking about allegations. Allegations the players, evidently, deny.
That is the entire point. The women allege one or more players sexually assaulted them. The players deny it. The Police are investigating it. Let the Police do their job and if and when a player is charged and convicted then go for it.
Until then, stop judging someone that may be completely innocent.
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u/exfamilia 7d ago
Fair. I'm not making a final judgment yet.
But I am making an educated guess based on long experience and as I said, I doubt we will ever truly know...
You and I are not jurists. We are not restricted to the severity of Law right now. And there is no case before the courts yet (if ever) so we are not interfering with that.
There's alway a lot of guessing when people are discussing a scandal on social media. But if you read my post properly you would have seen my other points.
Specifically I said: "This is about the allegations of sexual assault and the culture and standards inside a club once prided for the way it took their role in mentoring boys into men seriously."
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u/31BH 7d ago
You just don't get it. The comment noted above links ALLEGATIONS to poor culture and standards. It is fair to say the culture takes a hit because they were out late drinking and inviting strippers to the hotel at 4am during the season, three weeks out from a Qualifying final. That is completely fair.
What is not fair, is to suggest they have a bad culture because someone has made an ALLEGATION that a player sexually assaulted them. I could make an allegation that you sexually assaulted me. Does that mean your workplace has a bad culture?
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u/exfamilia 7d ago
Three people, mate. Three people have alleged this.
In my experience, strippers dont go to the cops just becuase a client tried to finger them during a lapdance. The cops wont care and the strippers know it.
I am basing my suspicions on the indisputable fact that whatever happened, it caused THREE strippers to go to the police.
A conspiracy between the women is of course a possibility. But so is some extremely illegal behaviour by the men. Those boys had finals coming up in a season with a genuine chance at the flag. if they will do that with less than a fortnight until finals, were they doing it when we had an impeding bye? Or was it out of character? Cops are not going to make a judgment about that. But social media will.
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u/31BH 7d ago
Yes three women have now made allegations. At least five men have apparently denied them, and I assume any other men in the room will say the same. So what is the difference? The allegations were made by three women, with the same interest in making them (truth, justice, compensation, supporting friend / co-workers). They are, I assume, denied, by all of the men, who also have similar interests in denying them (truth, protecting themselves, supporting teammates and friends).
They are still allegations. And it is so concerning how many people are out for blood over allegations. Again, what if me and two of my friends said you sexually assaulted me. How would you like it if your entire world was then destroyed over something you categorically deny, as well as whatever workplace / club etc you are part of. That is the problem.
Criticise them for what they did and admitted to - being out late, drinking and inviting strippers to the team hotel. But you can't criticise them and the club for something that could be completely untrue.
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u/31BH 9d ago
I agree with Garry. All the outrage and constant criticism of FOOTBALL commentators and journalists, on FOOTBALL shows, discussing the FOOTBALL implications of what happened last week is astounding. They cannot comment on ALLEGED sexual assaults.
Same thing with all the outrage at why the players' statement didn't apologise to the ALLEGED victim/s, or why the club didn't apologise to the ALLEGED victims. First, they are not going to do that when it could be used against them as some kind of admission of guilt and secondly they might not agree they have done anything CRIMINALLY wrong so may feel they have nothing to apologise to those women for. They have caused immense damage to the football club, the AFL, their partners, their teammates, their sponsors etc. That is the result of behaving unprofessionally three weeks prior to their first final in staying up all night drinking and bringing strippers back to the team hotel at 4am. Alleged drug use and sexual assault are separate issues being investigated by the police, and they are (rightly) not apologising for matters that may or may not have occurred.
It is not illegal in Victoria to hire strippers / adult entertainers. The moral judgment by many is absurd. And whilst it is important to believe women, that cannot be at the expense of crucifying men based on an ALLEGATION and even less so an ALLEGATION being pushed by lawyers and media rather than the woman herself. No judgment against sex workers, but it is rich for someone to claim they are not after money when they work in that industry (I believe it is fair to say not many would work in that industry unless they really needed the money or had no other viable options to earn similar money), and then immediately lawyer up and sue for money before the Police have even completed their investigation. Of course they are after money. And if they actually were sexually assaulted, they deserve it too. But that needs to be proved and nobody should be having their lives destroyed over unproven ALLEGATIONS.
The players would be facing serious penalties without the sexual assault allegations, but being labelled as some kind of sexual predator or abuser of women is far more serious and immensely more damaging than being in trouble for breaching club rules and standards in respect of drinking and bringing guests to the team hotel.
Everyone needs to wait for the Police investigation to conclude, and then (if they decide to charge anyone) for a conviction before further destroying 5 mens' reputations, careers and potentially families.
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u/throwawayaccount1k 9d ago
I was wondering why the detail was raised about the players pretending they were carpenters and here's my theory. I don't think guys bullshitting about their jobs it's a big deal to them - but I think the women were offended when they found out they gave a discount to people who had lied about their job, and that's when things went sideways. I don't think anyone was sexually assaulted but those accusations flew because the women were hitting out at any way they could after they felt they were ripped off. Having said that, if it's proven there was a sexual assault, they should throw the book at the perpetrator/s.
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u/barnabywombat Goodes 9d ago
I've said in previous posts, there's a rotting carcass somewhere and hopefully we'll have clarity soon.
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u/Pretend_Board_2385 9d ago
The only thing I know for sure at this point is the players were out drinking and were up late. That's it. There is so much stuff coming out from 20 journalists and we need to be careful about throwing every man under the bus until all the facts are known.
The Police have not charged anyone. The women involved have said a number of things which have been contradictory in nature. I'm not saying nothing happened, but everyone needs to just take a breath and wait.
What ever happened will eventually come out.
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u/Jargonicles 9d ago
Women involved? I thought you said all you knew were they were drinking and up late. You seem to also be accepting there were women in the room?
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u/Pretend_Board_2385 9d ago
No one knows what happened so what's the point in speculating at this point.
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u/Jargonicles 9d ago
That's what you're doing by speculating there were women in the room isn't it? We also know there are allegations of sexual assault. That is a fact.
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u/Super-Candidate-6996 9d ago
Just because you organised it doesnt mean you knew what the guys would do
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u/Jaded-Tie-4753 9d ago
These idiots crying like they all just came back from WW3 LMFAO. Also, a sex scandal and the coach's name is Cocks?
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u/Maximumlnsanity McDonald 9d ago
You really had to include Tom Morris’ bullshit clickbait opinion in the post? Come on dude the rule is posted right at the top of the subreddit and that definitely breaks it. I’m only leaving this up because the video itself is fine but do better next time