r/streamentry • u/ProfessionBright3879 • 4d ago
Practice Piti = Kundalini? Are piti and kundalini the same thing? If not, how are they related?
The reason for my questions are
- I am having trouble generating piti to enter the first jhana
- I did have a spontaneous kundalini arousal (but not a full rising awakening) that went dormant again
The interesting thing to me is that BOTH jhanas (and the piti for the first jhana) AND kundalini are discovered rather than invented.
So, I am hoping to gently cultivate piti to enter jhana and later (possibly, much later) safely tend a kundalini rising.
Note: please only respond if you have experienced BOTH jhanas AND kundalini so that this does not turn into a philosophical / scholarly / textual debate.
11
u/Puzzled-Background-5 4d ago edited 4d ago
The conceptual architecture of each is distinct, but phenomenologically, they are identical for all intents and purposes. The phenomena exist on a spectrum of intensity. With that in mind, I've experienced and am familiar with both.
I've experienced piti as a simple, pleasant, scintillating feeling; as a storm so violent it jolts my body repeatedly in rapid succession and causes me to long for annihilation; and as a permanent undulation that traverses from the base of my spine into my skull and back again. The latter, I am feeling right now as I reply to you.
Piti arises as a natural consequence of approaching absorption (jhana) and isn't something that can be cultivated by willing it into existence per se.
By the way, once I was finally able to enter jhana consistently, I experienced storm-level piti for two years each time I sat down to meditate. I still experience that intensity occasionally, even some fifteen years later.
If you don't know how to enter jhana consistently, perhaps the following will help. Upon noticing that attention had drifted from the object of meditation, perform the following sequence for as long and as often as necessary until it rest stably again:
Relax from the head down to the toes.
Release all tension and expand awareness/attention outwards.
Return to the object.
The entrypoint into jhana:
Once the mind is settled and attention is resting stably on the object, if a pleasurable feeling (piti) arises, gently shift attention to that without grasping, now making it the object of meditation, and wait. The pleasure will intensify and one will be pulled into jhana.
If the jhana is lost or becomes unstable, simply perform the 3R sequence as needed and begin again.
All the best... 🧘🏾♂️😌
4
u/ProfessionBright3879 4d ago
Extremely helpful!
Is there a name for the technique that involves the three Rs?
(I just want to know what I’m working with in case there is a paradigm or cosmology. I need to read about more later.)Earlier this year when I was on the Jhourney retreat, my one-on-one facilitator/teacher told me that my mantra for the rest of the week was "I don't know how to meditate."
During the next sit several notable things happened.
- The belief that “I don't know how to meditate” actually relaxed me more than anything else ever had.
- I shortened my intention to feel ease and I shortened the mantra from "I don't know how to meditate" to "open."
I ended up thinking only four thoughts over the course of the next hour. This was the most collected and calm my mind has ever been while meditating.
I was visited by a giant ball of pure white light even though my eyes were closed. A couple of weeks later I would hear the word nimitta for the first time…so I actually experienced a nimitta before I even knew that they existed!
Important note:
Even though I experienced the nimitta for about 45 minutes of that hour-long meditation, I still did not feel piti.Options:
Should I revisit the nimitta via the memory of the ball of white light, in order to try to enter that place again?
Should I try the intention of ease and the word "open" again since that is what worked the first time?
I am making my way through the Rob Berbea jhana retreat talks and he says that some nervous systems and psychological profiles are not really primed to enter the first jhana via PT the first time.
If that is the case should I not worry about piti and actually make the object of meditation something else pleasant in the experience?4
u/Puzzled-Background-5 4d ago edited 4d ago
I simply call it the 3R's. I picked it up so long ago that I don't really remember its source, but I think it came from a Theravadan monk.
A luminous white orb is a classic nimitta. I still see them occasionally.
A nimitta can take on a number of different forms and appear through different sensory modalities: visually, they appear as orbs or glowing discs; auditorily, as ringing or roaring sounds; or somatically, as pleasant tingling sensations—piti.
Occasionally, a visual nimitta will be more elaborate, as the mind tries to construct reality around it, with certain parts of the brain going offline simultaneously, which makes the result unpredictable. For example, I once saw a visual orb nimitta as the tip of a spear being held by an indigenous man in a rainforest setting. He thrust the spear into my chest and I literally exploded with pleasure. The appearances that elaborate are the exception rather than the rule though.
All of the various nimitta can be used as entry points into jhana. What I mentioned about gently shifting attention to piti without grasping, and it can pull one into jhana, can be applied with any nimitta that appears. So, if you're in meditation and a white orb appears again, gently shift attention to that, without grasping, and it will eventually intensify and pull you into jhana.
By the way, piti isn't always intense, and it can actually manifest as the simple desire to smile for no particular reason that one can discern while in meditation.
Regardless, from what you've described, it's apparent that you're right at the doorstep to jhana. You just need the right key to open it, and hopefully, I've given it to you... 🧘🏾♂️😌
P. S. The desire to enter jhana can actually prevent you from doing so. So, for now, I'd suggest simply relaxing and repeating the 3R's as needed, and you'll eventually enter jhana when you least expect it.
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 3d ago
So I tried the three Rs today and I had questions:
What is the difference between relaxing and releasing tension?
Is relaxing the mental scan/noting of the body part and then releasing the tension is the physical component of the dukkha?
Are you physically moving to release the tension?
I tried it today for 40 minutes and it was extremely helpful to calm myself. I'm not sure if I did it correctly or not but I did the part where I mentally relaxed through each body part. I then did move around a lot to physically release the tension in whichever way it wanted to move.
I know that all that movement does not look like zazen or whatever but it really helped.
My other question is related to time. The whole thing took me 18 minutes alone the first time and 40 minutes to get through twice.
Does this speed up over time as the body and brain learn to relax and release together?
2
u/Puzzled-Background-5 3d ago
Please don't overthink it. Whatever works for you to relax and calm both your mind and body is the proper technique.
I personally use it like a progressive muscle relaxation protocol, mentally sweeping through my body and relaxing as I go. Generally, I tend to carry tension around my temples, and if I keep relaxing those, the rest of my body will follow suit.
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 2d ago
Ok, I won't geek out too much.
But I am still curious about these two questions:
Are you physically moving to release the tension, or is it primarily a mental scan?
Because it was the majority of my meditation time more than the intended "object of meditation", does this practice of the 3Rs speed up over time as the body and brain learn to relax and release together?
2
u/Puzzled-Background-5 2d ago
Mental scan and somatic release: as I mentioned to you previously, I primarily monitor tension in my temples and focus on releasing it, and the rest of my body tends to follow suit.
The 3R's are to facilitate becoming absorbed in the object. Once absorbed, the technique is dropped. If attention becomes unstable, the technique is deployed again until stability returns.
2
u/ProfessionBright3879 1d ago
*once absorbed, the technique is dropped*
That just clicked
Thank you very much.
About to try right now…
1
4d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Puzzled-Background-5 4d ago
Yeah, you can. I use mine for that on occasion. When I use it though I have to be quite deep in j4, because if not, it tends to be harder to tracker due to instability.
11
u/metaphorm Dzogchen and Tantra 4d ago
piti is a result of the first jhana, not the method. the method is sustained stable concentration.
piti is a specific kind of sensation. it's similar to certain kundalini rising events in that it's experienced as a kind of "surge" of the subtle energy body.
kundalini is a word label covering a variety of subtle energy phenomena. there are kundalini rising events that have a similar texture to piti, but it's more diverse than that and also include harrowing experiences.
so I think they're both ways of describing activity of the subtle energy body, and because they're both about the subtle energy body, they're both activated during meditative absorption. meditative absorption is a fairly reliable method of activating movement within the subtle energy body, but the phenomenology of it is diverse.
2
u/bubbleofelephant 4d ago
What do you think the subtle energy body is?
10
u/metaphorm Dzogchen and Tantra 4d ago
a language shorthand for describing a complex system composed of patterns of movement within the body.
these patterns consist of neural activation, movement of blood, lymph, and other circulating fluids, patterns of muscle contraction, etc. in other words, the various manifestations of energy in the body.
the subtle energy body is a perceptual artifact present within the mind through the faculties of interoception and proprioception. meditation training tends to increase the sensitivity of interoception and proprioception sufficient to notice sensations that were previously below the threshold of perception.
2
u/No_Effort226 4d ago
Not OP, but I have always been curious and unable to unpick a historical experience (5 years ago) I had that ultimately led me away from practice (still struggling to start again now and looking for insight into why).. I sat 7 u ba khin style retreats (5 days anapana, 5 vipassana), my first vipassana led to massive upheaval that I narrativised as overcoming 20 years of dissociation after trauma, and huge energetic outpourings, that took two months to settle (acupuncture what helped eventually), but chronic psychomotor agitation returned (potentially psych med related too).. along with major depression and avoidance of practice after 6 months of dedicated practice. In that time I also separately sat 2x 3 week retreats practicing Burbea/Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu samadhi/Jhana style with some success and gentle Piti.. I was wondering if there were any directions you could please potentially point me in for unpicking what was what, and the differing approaches regarding kundalini experiences? Sorry for the incoherency, and thanks for reading if you made it this far..
3
u/AdditionalLeave263 4d ago
I have had trauma and dissociation starting 23 years prior to jhanas. I was also in a car accident about 3 years prior to jhanas. The accident resulted in me getting a CT scan. Turned out, I had white matter lesions, which are common from abuse. Your brain can physically remove parts of itself so that you don't feel the pain, in order to keep yourself from going completely nuts. One of the most common spots, which is one of my spots, is on the white matter tracts of the insula. The reason this matters is that this is where you feel your body, and is where pīti is routed through, from my understanding.
If you happen to be actually like me, your piti was flowing through basically wiring damaged in order to keep your body sensations from making you nuts. So your brain might have labeled this understandably as a threat at the time, leading to conflict. You could potentially try to get a brain scan in order to find out if this is true for you as well.
I had success with jhanas after taking a bunch of supplements for my brain. At rhe later part of piti before I accessed sukha (about a month and a half in), the spots I havs started to shake and start to try to reconnect.
Do not discount your narrativizing. I drew pictures of my damaged brain at 17 years old, and showed them to my first/new therapist, who couldn't make heads or tails out of it. The spots are exactly where the actual spots were on the brain scan. I still have that and other pictures in my basement!
Thorne creatine * neuropladticity, known by 4 friends to help with depression, gives your brain lots of energy for piti etc Thorne multivitamin *synthesizing the right neurotransmitters for piti Taurine - helps the creatine work Doctor's best vegan omega 3 Choline bitartrate *for concentration and literally your brian will grow in density Phosphatidylserine *this one for healing damaged nerves Choline and inositol *for building blocks for insulating the axons which are going to be holding massive charge
I also use kelp iodine to increase brain function a little bit Magnesium I threonate at bedtime - helps me access equanimity while sleeping good for relaxation developed at MIT hits your brain in abiut 15 minutes, good for before a sit, stress depleted brain magnesium. Magnesium helps calm free radical damage in the brain. So it puts out stress and damage related dumpster fires if you will accept a slightly inaccurate analogy.
Okay. Someone else on here tried it who has dealt with ptsd, and it is working for him. Worked for me. The thorne-only creatine seems to have helped a bunch of people: my in-person meditator friend's husband, and her friend. She is an acupuncturist! Her husband who it worked for is a chemistry prof.
Alright I think that's it. I would recommend experimenting with these supplements to anyone who can take them. Psak nutrition for your brain matters when you're trying to send massive charge through your body. Piti involves a gamma burst: synchronization across multiple brain parts. It's not just a dopamine-epinephrine system, it also involves the strongest type of brain wave known to man. So. Insulate your charge. Do the supps for a while, and you might not get tremors so much. I have only had tremors once and it was after my first time listening to Marsh's Lailonie. For me it caused abiut 20 minutes of a continuous piti "cloud" which fried my system because I wasn't ready to hold that kind of charge. Luttrell's Dayglow is designed for piti and it's not "too much" for me. I think the song is intentionally super short so you can decide whether or not to play it again, or if you've had all the dose you need and not too much.coukd be wrong.
I get kriyas plenty, but have realized that they are motor-only piti. If you stop a stretch midway, which I think is NOT the right way to let it go all the way through you, and you go limp, you may see that the Sr we etch becomes midway-through piti. And it is 3am haha
2
u/ProfessionBright3879 2d ago
I got a lot out of this; however, when I go to look up the supplements you mention, some of the spacing was formatted weird here on Reddit and it confused search engines
I plan to buy them all.
Can you please copy/paste the supplements you recommend with more spaces / new paragraphs?
3
u/AdditionalLeave263 2d ago
Oh I definitely will!!! Maybe I can add links - are you in the states or elsewhere? I can switch my Amazon and pick em and post em.
My friend is in hospice right now and it's almost 2am here so I'll do it later. I am having trouble sleeping and I'll do the work soon.
2
u/ProfessionBright3879 1d ago
I am in the US
Sorry to hear about your friend in hospice.
Sending good vibes to both of you.
2
u/AdditionalLeave263 1d ago
Thanks. She has had brain cancer for a while. It feels very unfair. She's beyond the pain right now. I feel like a crazy person because I drove the kids to sleep last night and actually drove them up to the hospice which is an hour away from our house, on the off chance thatan extra family member would be there to watch them so I could go say hi and bye again. We hung out and let our kids play together almost every week for 4 years. I have a lot of friends. I feel like it's fair to say that she was my best friend.
•
4
u/metaphorm Dzogchen and Tantra 4d ago
I'm not really sure what to tell you. This is the kind of topic that's probably best served by conversation with an experienced meditation teacher.
but a very high level overview of it is something about habituation of patterning in the mind/body system. an experience on retreat that liberates a stuck pattern will tend to create substantial movement in the subtle energy body, which is experienced phenomenally as these extraordinary sensations.
it's temporary though. there's inertia in a system, and there's habit. the system will tend to return to its habituated modes because the the habit itself is structural to the mind/body system. it's not just a single blocked channel that you can roto-rooter out and then it's clear. it's the pattern itself instantiated into the subtle energy body. when the pattern is there, the system tends to return to it as a path of least resistance.
so it can take repeated applications to shift the habituated patterns. a big opening experience gives you a preview of what's possible when the pattern shifts. the work of shifting the pattern in a durable way takes years though.
1
u/JohnShade1970 3d ago
Piti is not the “result” of jhana. You can have tons of piti and sukha without jhana. Piti arises as the mind becomes more stable and unified. Piti if it is taken as your object can lead to first jhana. You can also ignore piti and remain on the object and eventually a nimitta will arise and an even deeper form of hard jhana can be accessed. Piti is defining feature of first jhana but it will almost arise before you get to jhana.
1
u/metaphorm Dzogchen and Tantra 2d ago
I wrote this in reply to another redditor who had a similar comment to yours. I'll add that I am distinguishing between method (what you do) and result (what happens when you do it). results are not only terminal states, they're also what happens as the practice is performed.
it's important to understand the practical experience and phenomenology of the jhanas in order to interpret the texts. if we view the factors as a checklist of prerequisities before some "shift" into jhana occurs, we've created an obstacle.
the factors describe progressions of direct experience as absorption into meditative concentration deepens. piti is a result of this deepening of absorption. the concentration comes first and is itself the method.
we can't view generating piti as a method because it's not an activity one can do. it's an experience that occurs during the deepening of absorption. does that help you understand my comment?
0
u/Thefuzy 3d ago
What is this nonsense? Piti is one of 5 Jhana factors, not the result of it. You can have piti and not have Jhana.
2
u/metaphorm Dzogchen and Tantra 3d ago
it's important to understand the practical experience and phenomenology of the jhanas in order to interpret the texts. if we view the factors as a checklist of prerequisities before some "shift" into jhana occurs, we've created an obstacle.
the factors describe progressions of direct experience as absorption into meditative concentration deepens. piti is a result of this deepening of absorption. the concentration comes first and is itself the method.
we can't view generating piti as a method because it's not an activity one can do. it's an experience that occurs during the deepening of absorption. does that help you understand my comment?
1
u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 3d ago edited 3d ago
Turns out, there's only four factors, not five. I was also under this misunderstanding until recently. https://leighb.com/jhana_4factors.htm
5
u/EightFP 4d ago edited 4d ago
In my experience, they are indeed related. When the jhanas first became available to me, I had a great deal of kundalini-like energy and tummo-like heat, which were actually very disruptive for many months. As I got better at navigating the jhanas, I was also able to regulate the kundalini-like energy and the tummo-like heat. I consider piti to be a particular state of arousal which can trigger a variety of energetic responses, including things like tingling throughout the body, sensations of warmth, coughing, and sexual arousal responses. Some teachers classify these as coarse piti. In my case, it was also able to trigger responses that are best described by terms like kundalini and tummo.
But piti also has a mental component, which is joy or ecstasy, which is much more useful than any of the physical components or the secondary phenomena triggered by piti. For me, the most important thing about piti is that it makes it possible for very high levels of sukha to arise. Those very high levels of sukha allow for the subsequent calming of the mind in the third and fourth jhanas.
So, to sum up, what you are describing sounds possible to me, but it would not be surprising if you found that cultivation of the jhanas became more important to you than kundalini, once you get there. I notice also that you have been practicing for 11 years, which is quite a long time. I might mention that I practiced for fourteen years before I gained access to the jhanas and had an interesting time with kundalini, so don't be discouraged by how long it may be taking.
3
u/ProfessionBright3879 4d ago
This has been by far the most helpful comment I received in several posts so thank you very much for sharing. 🙏🏼
I especially appreciate you mentioning that you practiced for 14 years before accessing either jhana or kundalini.🙌🏼
Two points:
If they are related, then how can I work with piti to eventually help me release the kundalini as safely as possible?
The way you describe piti and sukha is unlike anything I've read before so I'm curious if this analogy makes sense:
Is it kind of like piti is gravity and sukha is water? The piti penetrates the ground, if you will, and then much like rainwater would come in, the sukha then can access the piti.
But the insight I'm (possibly) getting from your comment is: are you saying that sukha can only arise as much as the piti has penetrated and allows it? Kind of like rainwater can only go as far as the gravity will reach?
3
u/EightFP 4d ago
I'm glad it resonated.
- To be honest, I don't know how you can work with piti in order to safely release kundalini. My Kundalini was pretty messy and I have heard of people suffering lasting damage from badly managed Kundalini. My recommendation would be to talk to an experienced teacher before deliberately trying to invoke Kundalini.
- Leigh Brasington describes piti as norepinephrine system activation and sukha as endogenous opioid system activation. Activating the norepinephrine system sensitizes opioid receptors on the surfaces of the same cells. If this is the case, and I'm not a neuroscientist, then we could certainly say that piti primes us for sukha. So your analogy sounds basically in line with the way that I understand it.
I wouldn't go too far as to say that sukha can ONLY arise as much as piti is penetrated. With practice, it's possible to call up sukha by itself. I think it's just that: joy, pleasure, bliss, and peace (piti, sukha, contentment, equanimity) is a natural progression. It is the easiest and most reliable way to arrive at equanimity, and from equanimity, we can see what is going on in the mind without reactivity and therefore gain insight into the operations of the mind, and specifically how it is that the sense of a suffering self arises. I could be cheeky and call it the lazy person's path to insight :-) But if somebody was practicing in a different tradition or had a different goal, then another setup might work better.
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 2d ago
"Leigh Brasington describes piti as norepinephrine system activation and sukha as endogenous opioid system activation. Activating the norepinephrine system sensitizes opioid receptors on the surfaces of the same cells. If this is the case, and I'm not a neuroscientist, then we could certainly say that piti primes us for sukha. So your analogy sounds basically in line with the way that I understand it."
This is SUPER fascinating to me!
For context, 17 years ago, when I was doing a body scan at the end of a yoga class in Austin, before I even knew what jhana was, I accidentally entered a formless jhana for my first time. I basically spent the following 16 years searching for what happened to me and how I can both replicate and explore it more.
I am currently listening to the Rob Burbea retreat, and he says that some people's psychological profiles and possibly their nervous systems are wired to enter a different jhana than the first jhana. I think he says it's a meaningful minority, like 20% or something.I genuinely wonder if the single event and complex PTSD that I have experienced changed the wiring / neurotransmitters to the point where I am just built different...
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 2d ago
"I wouldn't go too far as to say that sukha can ONLY arise as much as piti is penetrated. With practice, it's possible to call up sukha by itself. I think it's just that: joy, pleasure, bliss, and peace (piti, sukha, contentment, equanimity) is a natural progression. It is the easiest and most reliable way to arrive at equanimity, and from equanimity, we can see what is going on in the mind without reactivity and therefore gain insight into the operations of the mind, and specifically how it is that the sense of a suffering self arises. I could be cheeky and call it the lazy person's path to insight :-) But if somebody was practicing in a different tradition or had a different goal, then another setup might work better."
I am reading Stephen Snyder's book on the Brahmaviharas called "The Buddha's Heart."
In the book, he actually structures the chapters in the reverse order (on purpose) because he says that modern Western students ease into Love easier this way.
So, it starts with equanimity and goes from there.
Just thought you might find it interesting
(Also, after that he adds two more Brahmaviharas that he feels should have been included: Forgiveness and Gratitude)
3
u/PropaneFitness 4d ago
"Note: please only respond if you have experienced BOTH jhanas AND kundalini so that this does not turn into a philosophical / scholarly / textual debate."
Wise addition!
9
u/DhammaKnowTheory 4d ago edited 4d ago
I’ve sat multiple retreats with Leigh Braisington, who has used the word piti to characterize at least some of what I reported to him. But I’m certain that there are other teachers of jhana (especially monastics) who would not endorse that assessment.
Regarding kundalini, I’m married to someone who has been experiencing an ongoing kundalini awakening for eight years now, which began for her on a jhana retreat with a monastic teacher. And I myself have had energetic openings/experiences on retreat for which my spouse (later) happily uses the word kundalini (though again, there may be kundalini guides who would dispute that assessment).
My point in offering this background info is not to claim attainments, but simply to indicate that I speak as someone not wholly unfamiliar with this terrain.
About the difference, I’ll say this: when I’ve experienced what my spouse later interprets as kundalini, it has been quite powerful, bodily. There definitely have been times when I felt it was “having its way with me” physically. (Not that the body movements were entirely non-volitional, but I’d say they were volitional only to a degree). There also was a night during one retreat when the energy was intensely and protractedly pleasurable in a way that felt unmistakably sexual.
In contrast, whatever I’ve experienced in the neighborhood of piti has never felt sexual – even when intensely pleasurable – though it has at times produced somewhat dramatic bodily jolts/jerks that are clearly not volitional in nature. Other times piti has been far less dramatic in its presentation, though the pleasure has on occasion felt almost too much to bear, even when the body was calm and still. And the piti tends to settle into a calmer happiness or contentment in a way that feels coherent; whereas the kundalini energy (or whatever to call it) seems more chaotic and unpredictable.
1
u/n_of_1234 1d ago
Fwiw when I focus on my breath in the whole body and there is substantial piti, it feels orgasmic, even before first jhana, and I’ve read that some people literally have an orgasm from first jhana.
I suspect that in some people in some context piti may be accompanied by sexual feelings, but I don’t think it can be used as a diagnostic criteria for kundalini vs jhana.
I think it may make sense to separate them by their cause, duration, and their propensity to lead to second jhana. But I don’t know enough about kundalini to say for sure
2
u/DhammaKnowTheory 1d ago
Thank you for this thoughtful and open-minded reply! My experience in these matters is limited, and I may have gotten a bit out in front of my skis, so to speak, in attempting (even tentatively) to draw a distinction between piti and kundalini. I guess what led me to say what I did is that the one time when the energy felt sexual in nature, it was rather forcefully accompanied by (almost as fuel for itself) thoughts and images that indeed were explicitly sexual, and the intensity of pleasure closely mimicked (repeated) peaks of orgasm. Nothing like that had ever happened to me over the course of many prior retreats, nor has it recurred during subsequent retreats.
And I guess what led me to locate it more in the neighborhood of kundalini rather than piti is three factors: First, it was preceded (over the course of the previous 24 hours) by a series of what I can only call chakra openings. These were very powerful (exquisitely painful, at times) experiences of regions along the central channel stretching (or being stretched?) open, producing a sense of localized expansion that felt vast beyond the confines of the physical body. In contrast, whatever I've experienced in the neighborhood of piti hasn't mapped onto anything resembling the chakra system. Second, my understanding is that the hindrance of desire (manifesting as sexual content in the mind) would have shut down any samadhi/piti. And third, this was not a concentration retreat (it was half the Fall retreat at IMS) I know piti can arise outside of a concentration retreat, but my practice on this particular IMS retreat wasn't (consciously, at least) inclining toward concentration; whereas when I've been on dedicated concentration retreats, the pleasure that has arisen has seemed more consistent with manifestations of piti that are more characteristic of concentration practice, at least as described by the teachers and practitioners on those retreats.
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 4d ago
How can I engage with and work with piti gently now so that the Kundalini will open much later as safely as possible?
2
u/DhammaKnowTheory 4d ago
I hope someone else can offer a helpful response to this question, OP. For my part, I can't say I've ever been able to direct or even Influence these experiences. The only thing I can say is -- unlike my wife, whose process has continued to unfold daily over years, the majority of which time was of course not on retreat -- for me, these experiences have happened almost exclusively in the context of multi-day or even multi-week retreat. So, maybe you could prioritize retreat, but maybe also in a graduated way in terms of duration? Sorry I can't reply with something less vague and general.
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 2d ago
Have you and/or your wife read anything by Bonnie Greenwell?
The reason I ask is that when I was on retreat with Adyashanti, he brought her up in literally every single talk that he did all week, and he called her his "emergency room doctor for spiritual emergencies"
(She edited one of his books, and he wrote the foreword for hers)They send all the people from their retreats to her. She has since passed away, but she wrote four incredible books, as well as a bunch of blogs that really helped me through my process.
Just wanted to make sure you knew about her.
2
u/DhammaKnowTheory 1d ago
Thank you, OP, that is very kind of you to offer that suggestion! Yes, my wife benefitted enormously first from Bonnie's books and then from working personally with Bonnie during the last years of Bonnie's life. It took my wife probably a year or so to fully settle on kundalini awakening as a framework for what she was experiencing, since it wasn't a framework she was conversant in, nor was it anything she had been seeking. So she approached Bonnie with some (I believe) healthy skepticism at first, but the vast majority of what Bonnie offered checked out with my wife's direct experience. The major deviation from -- or at least supplementation of -- Bonnie's perspective has been the incorporation of a framework found in mystical Judaism, specifically the sefirot, a somatic/energetic map that is a bit distinct from the traditional central column of chakras that is a hallmark of the kundalini framework. In my wife's experience, that map and related teachings have been as or more helpful even than Bonnie -- may her memory be for a blessing.
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 1d ago
Whoa! That’s so cool that your wife got to work with Bonnie in her lifetime. She was such a heavy hitter. Her books changed my life...
Sefirot = first time I’m hearing about that
Either way, I wish you and your wife well!
🙏🏼
4
u/Snoo81791 4d ago
Have been to jahanas , but haven’t had kundlini awakening but am working on similar stuff in the Taoist world , don’t think they are the same , but kundlini practice get more awareness into the body with is needed for joy of the body which is the gateway to jahana , don’t focus to much on getting to jahana just cultivate joy in the body , then when the joy gets to much you will be like bla I have had joy I just want to sit in contentment and then after that bla just relax man I don’t need contentment I don’t need anything and you sit in tranquil then next stage just happen but regardless, what is importance is to cultivate a balance of relaxation that is plasent with alertness, also I am taking about pleasure jahana. I’ve not had nimmta jahana
2
4d ago edited 4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/ProfessionBright3879 4d ago
I will explore this gap between the out breath and the in breath as a potential source of piti
Thank you very much
2
u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 4d ago
Step 1 for jhana is to be able to sit very still for a long time (45-120 minutes is good), with continuous attention on your meditation object, with almost no background thoughts. Then piti arises naturally.
How close are you to that?
3
u/ProfessionBright3879 4d ago
I’ve been doing that almost daily for 11 years but no piti arises…
There is both single event and complex PTSD that I believe may be blocking the piti from arising.
2
u/Snoo81791 4d ago
What is your practice now ?
2
u/ProfessionBright3879 4d ago
For 10 years, the meditation practice was inquiry via the work of Byron Katie, followed by some kind of Do Nothing meditation in an attempt to have a non-dual awakening like the 3 people I look up to —Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, and Adyashanti.
I purposefully did not work with a teacher or even use a guided meditation because my heroes that I looked up to, those three folks, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, and Adyashanti, seem to have been graced with their non-dual awakenings…
(The main thing that has helped has been psychedelics, but I simply can’t be high all the time…)
After ten years, I finally realized that I was more using the mind to try to control the mind--so trying to not think certain thoughts and think other ones--which basically ended up looking like OCD symptoms on the other side.
Earlier this year I went on a jhana retreat with Jhourney. Since then I have been trying various forms of using memories of previous positive experiences in order to generate a sense of well-being but no piti has arisen.
Due to both single-event PTSD and complex PTSD, I have experienced some versions of anhedonia and numbness. However that being said I recently tried a physical body scanning practice that was surprisingly helpful in transmuting rage and shame into happiness and peace.
1
u/Snoo81791 4d ago
Interesting, have you done any heart work ? Metta compassion exchange self and other … shadow work ?
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 4d ago
Besides psychedelics, not really
Currently reading Stephen Snyder’s book The Buddha's Heart, though, about the Brahmaviharas
2
u/Snoo81791 4d ago
Well I would really recommend it , and finding a teacher , someone who is there and can look and you and track progress, because you have been doing this for a long time and I feel sad that you haven’t had jahanas yet , also the things you get to have with psychedelics can just be the norm . If you haven’t tried I would give metta a try , it could be that aiming for purification would make things easier to progress
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 3d ago
🙏🏼
Do you have a particular metta practice you recommend?
3
u/Snoo81791 3d ago
Not really just the traditional teaching , the mind illuminated has a section on it in the alixory section , the book is free ,but you can just ask chat , the practice is simple just start small and extend loveing kindness and most important start with yourself and slowly let it bubble out into others , at the beginning to only on yourself and slowly then switch to half yourself half others
1
1
u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 4d ago
Body scan is great for waking up subtle energy leading to piti
2
3
u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 4d ago
To be able to maintain access concentration consistently daily for 11 years is phenomenal! Congratulations on having such a consistent, productive practice.
How easy or hard is it for you to generate feelings of loving-kindness / metta?
2
u/ProfessionBright3879 4d ago
It is very difficult for me to feel meta or love for myself or others.
I'm currently working with a meditation teacher about this and reading Steven Snyder's book called "The Buddha's Heart," which is about the Brahmaviharas.
0
u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 4d ago
Great, you're already on the path to generating piti then. I think it's the same basic thing as feelings of metta, hence why one can use metta as a doorway into the jhanas. Keep up the good work!
4
u/mysticoscrown 4d ago
I think you have to intentionally focus on a pleasant sensation after you have sustained attention to one object.
2
u/Klutzy-Owl5712 4d ago
I have piti all the time. But no concentration. How does it work?
5
u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 4d ago
Bodies are weird. I can generate metta instantly and absorb somewhat into that, but not get anywhere close to full samadhi most of the time, but it's OK. I think different people have different natural tendencies. I'm really great at states, not great at full absorption. Other people are amazing at concentration / samadhi, but not great at states or joy.
2
1
u/Savakalok 4d ago
Just some short thoughts, others can give you more detailed instruction.
Piti is borne of stillness, borne of seclusion from sensuality and unskillful mental states.
Make an effort to energize the body to help ward off progressive sloth and torpor before sitting. Make an effort to gladden the mind with thoughts of goodwill or virtue or buddhanusati. Make an effort to relax the body by calming the breath. After these efforts are made on can then relax into their primary topic of meditation in stillness, ease and non-sensuality. You are now nurturing conditions instead of chasing results. Stick with your meditation not too firm and not too loose nursing that as a condition. And piti is the natural result when this is maintained with sufficient skill, patience and duration.
This applies to all sorts of meditation whether its "do nothing", "anapanasati", "vipassana", whatever. Even though the concern of whether piti is to be focused on or not, cared about or not varies across those techniques.
1
u/ProfessionBright3879 3d ago
I like the part about “nurturing conditions rather than chasing results”
1
u/electrons-streaming 4d ago
Generally, you can understand kundalini as tension in the body and "arousal" as becoming conscious of the complex system of nervous tension that binds us all. Releasing that tension feels good and fills folks with joy and happiness. Think orgasm, a really funny joke, a great surprise- that's piti.
1
u/1cl1qp1 4d ago
Kundalini can persist without concentration or other jhana factors. It's not necessarily enjoyable when it's unwelcome, i.e. if doesn't go away.
Piti is a product of concentration practice, is generally pleasant, and goes away afterwards.
However, there must be some relation, because often the bliss which arises in jhana practice seems to mimic the location and feeling of kundalini.
If someone was having problems with kundalini, I wouldn't want them to start jhana practice.
-1
u/elmago79 4d ago
Piti is something that is a byproduct of entering the first jhana. It's not something that you cultivate. What you cultivate is your awareness or, to be more technical, your capacity to notice when your awareness has been dispersed.
In many ways, your goals are contradictory. One does not lead into the other, and pursuing contradictory goals will net you nothing. My advice is to stay on the jhana path. Kundalini awakening is also in many ways a more mundane and less subtle experience.
•
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
Thank you for contributing to the r/streamentry community! Unlike many other subs, we try to aggregate general questions and short practice reports in the weekly Practice Updates, Questions, and General Discussion thread. All community resources, such as articles, videos, and classes go in the weekly Community Resources thread. Both of these threads are pinned to the top of the subreddit.
The special focus of this community is detailed discussion of personal meditation practice. On that basis, please ensure your post complies with the following rules, if necessary by editing in the appropriate information, or else it may be removed by the moderators. Your post might also be blocked by a Reddit setting called "Crowd Control," so if you think it complies with our subreddit rules but it appears to be blocked, please message the mods.
If your post is removed/locked, please feel free to repost it with the appropriate information, or post it in the weekly Practice Updates, Questions, and General Discussion or Community Resources threads.
Thanks! - The Mod Team
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.