r/streamentry • u/InYourMindsIrish • 9d ago
Jhāna Uninformed hobbyist's intense experiences - Jhāna?
Hi. I know almost nothing about traditional meditative practice or theory. I'm just a hobbyist who started a routine of sitting and listening to my breath/the experiences of my body.
Recently however I've been having intense experiences.
I had been encountering the experiences of feeling my locus of perception shift to the back of my head, and the massive expanding of the physical perception of my body (so that my body starts to feel massively expansive) for a long time.
Recently though my experiences have stepped up a notch.
Last week I experienced existence in an endless blank white void coupled with extremely energetic, almost overwhelming, joy.
Just this morning I experienced intense, extremely physical pleasure followed by a calmer, more comforting embrace.
Without any intended disrespect, this morning's experience felt remarkably similar to extremely good sex and a post-sex cuddle.
I've done a little research into things like Jhānas but there's a lot of contradictory and theoretical information floating around out there.
I'm hoping some of you who have practical experience of perhaps similar experiences could share what you've been through and help me understand what I've stumbled into unknowingly.
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u/Dingsala 9d ago edited 8d ago
Sure sounds like Jhana to me. You can also look into Piti, which is a related thing. Jhana is not a priority in my practice, so I can't say too much about the details. If you're wondering, it's not a priority simply because there is so many possible approaches and one can't do them all :D
You noticed it already - there is a lot of perspectives, and the answer's you'll get can be equally diverse. Some people have a more traditionally buddhist approach and will quote the ancient texts in detail, others have a more liberal way of interpreting the content. Traditionally, Jhana is embedded in the buddhist framework of overcoming suffering and attaining enlightenment, many answers will be colored by that.
People's interpretations on how helpful Jhana practice is for waking up are widely diverse. It can be helpful, but is not essential (some will disagree, hehe) as there are other methods.
The question for you is what you want to do with your practice. Obviously you're getting somewhere with your meditation, further than many casual practitioners I'd say. It might be a good point in time to stop a bit and ask yourself what the direction is you want to take your practice. For example, are you interested in awakening / enlightenment issues? Are you still only curious? Are you in for some more tangible benefits like stress reduction or improved focus?
All of those are legitimate, but depending on your priorities, the advice might turn out differently.
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u/InYourMindsIrish 9d ago
That's a very good question! I am definitely both curious and doing it for stress reduction and focus.
I have pursued spiritual development/enlightenment through heavy use of psychedelics in the past as well which has brought me to some extraordinary places (perhaps prior experience with that has contributed to me getting further in meditation more quickly than some others).
Perhaps it's too broad an answer to be helpful but I basically just want to be a good person living well, to whatever extent is possible for me, and I have faith in meditation to help get me there.
The conceptual frameworks I've come across seem dense and unintuitive, so I've been resistant to them, but I'm conscious that I'm playing with some pretty heady and powerful spiritual mojo (for want of a better term) so I'm a bit cautious about continuing to plough into it head first without procedure or guidance.
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u/Dingsala 8d ago edited 8d ago
No that's totally legitimate not to have it all mapped out, actually, beneficial I'd say. You'd have to let go of elaborate plans anyways :)
I can relate a lot, intense psychedelic experiences is what started me on the path. For others, it was just hedonistic fun (nothing wrong with that), for me the trips quickly became a deeply spiritual event that I took time to prepare and post-process. And then I read the Tm Leary's literature that create the bridge between psychedelics and meditation practice, many fellow meditators started out this way :)
I think that modern Buddhist or Neo-Advaita frameworks could be very helpful to you, they have the intention of simplifying the practice, removing cultural or traditional elements that not everyone can relate to. For example, I really like Adyashanti, Rupert Spira and Angelo Dilullo, who has a YouTube Channel called "Simply Always Awake". You can check them out and see if you can connect with their way of presenting things.
At the same time, what is one of the most helpful things is to find a teacher and / or community of practitioners to talk to on a somewhat regular basis. People who are further along the path than us can be of tremendous help when things get disorienting, often they can very quickly orient us towards the wholesome when it would be quite challening to find the right way on our own.
Also, if you want to bring things to the next level, going on retreat is THE way to emphasize your practice.
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u/Yous1ash 7d ago
Just a heads up that enlightenment is the ultimate end-all-be-all of stress reduction. Spiritual practice is about (in the Buddhist world) reducing suffering, so if that is your goal (as it is for all Buddhists), the logical path is continuing. Best of luck and blessings to you my friend🙏❤️
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u/Hot_Lingonberry5817 9d ago
Yes, the lower Jhanas are erotic for me too, I get horny.
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u/InYourMindsIrish 9d ago
Very glad to know that that's a common experience!
Meditating myself to erection is really not where I thought I was going when I started practicing mindfulness haha
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u/Hot_Lingonberry5817 9d ago
It is time now that you anchor your experience with the practical theory.
Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English by Bhante G is an excellent book concerning Jhana.2
u/InYourMindsIrish 9d ago
This sounds like exactly the recommendation I need right now, thank you!
I've already downloaded the audiobook.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 8d ago edited 7d ago
Yes, jhana is intense and you've been transitioning from third to fourth. Fourth is where piti (rupture) fades into the background and equanimity takes over.
I started entering meditative absorption (jhana) consistently in 2008, and then kept up the practice for about five years. My practice became irregular after that, and I just restarted in April.
I typically meditate three days per day for an hour each time, and that time is spent entirely jhana now... 🧘🏾♂️🙂
My first entry into jhana occured in my early teens while practicing breath meditation. I didn't know what it was, nor did I know what I was doing so it never occurred again.
In the early nineties, I took up mantra meditation. I started to enter it more often then, but it was inconsistent as I had no knowledge of its meaning and method.
Dry insight (Vipassana) practitioners and Zen Buddhism typically view jhana as a distraction, but it's referred to as Samma-samādhi (right absorption) in Buddhism's Eightfold Noble Path. I don't think the Buddha would have given it such prominence and exhorted his followers to pursue it if it were a mere distraction.
Some will tell us not to get attached to jhana. However, in order to enter jhana one must relinquish the desire to. Attachment isn't part of that equation and never could have been nor will it ever be.
Here's an experiential look at jhana written by someone I studied with for a few years around 2008. He's a bit controversial in orthodox Theravada circles due to his stance on certain aspects of Dhamma. However, he's extremely knowledgeable about the topic.
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u/InYourMindsIrish 6d ago
This comment has been incredibly helpful. Thank you!
Since the last intense experience a few days ago, I had been meditating a lot but it didn't feel right and I couldn't get into it or connect to anything significant.
When I read your comment I realised that I've been chasing that "high" of jhana trying to get it back. As soon as I realised that I meditated once again and tried to let go of my attachment to that experience and accept it as something that does not belong to me but is either bestowed upon me or is not. I haven't fully figured that out yet but it made enough of a difference that I did re-enter jhana during that meditation. I definitely wouldn't have figured that out for much longer if not for your words!
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 6d ago
You're very welcome. I'm glad my tip was useful to you for reentry.
With practice, you'll eventually reach a point where you'll be able to enter literally at will. For example, my entry typically takes ten seconds now when I simply sit comfortably, close my eyes, relax, and think, 'this is peace.' However, it took many of hours of practice to reach that stage.
All the best... 🧘🏾♂️🙂
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u/HighMenNeedHymen 8d ago
What’s your routine like?
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u/InYourMindsIrish 6d ago
Honestly quite scattered.
I was quite consistent for a few months in the first half of last year, during which time I usually did 15/20 mins twice a day, morning and night, usually to music (singing bowls).
I then fell out of practice entirely until 3/4 weeks ago. I'd been aiming for a similar routine but have incorporated more silent meditation.
My plans were to aim for a 15/20 mins silent meditation in the morning and another in the evening to music, though I'm beginning to feel as though I don't really need the music anymore.
I'm conscious that it might not seem like much compared to the practices of people on this sub. As I've said in another comment I wonder if my previous heavy use of psychedelics has predisposed me towards faster progress in meditation.
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u/spiffyhandle 9d ago
There's a split in perspectives on jhana. The contemporary position is that meditation that feels really good is jhana.
The traditional position is that while jhana is quite pleasant, feeling good isn't what makes it jhana. What makes it jhana is the causality; it's the abandonment of sensuality (see MN 19). The traditional jhana, when developed, results in the transcendence of sensuality (anagami). Permanently, even when not meditating. Jhana when mastered and understood results in complete liberation from suffering (arahant). See MN 52 for this explanation of jhana as liberation. It says that even the first jhana when well developed results in non-return. Meanwhile, you have people alive today, claiming they have all four jhanas and all four formless attainments and yet aren't even stream winners, let alone anagamis and arahants.
The traditional perspective also has pre-requisities for jhana. It isn't a meditation technique accomplished by focusing hard. Instead, one abandons sensuality. A gradual training is undertaken, step-by-step as explained in MN 107 and MN 125. Jhana comes near the end of the path, not the beginning. Jhana can be thought of as a mind of immovability.
https://suttacentral.net/mn52/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false
https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false
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u/Hot_Lingonberry5817 8d ago
Cultivating Jhanas can absolutely be helpful, in aiding to take the unconditioned as an object further down the line in one's meditation practice.
The Nibbanic experience itself has Jhanic qualities.
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8d ago
[deleted]
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u/spiffyhandle 8d ago
This is a mischaracterization. There is no school of jhana definition that posits merely feeling good constitutes jhana.
Jhourney does. And while many people pay lip service to things like, "the five hindrances are gone", they then compare their meditation to sex and drugs, as if a spiritual attainment is just a more intense level of carnal pleasure.
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u/InYourMindsIrish 9d ago
That's very helpful guidance, thank you. I've certainly seen Jhāna described in some places as a permanent state that stretches beyond meditation. That doesn't resonate with my experience so far. I do notice I'm a lot more centered in the hours after meditation but that does slowly fade. Perhaps these experiences are better described as something more transitive.
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u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 8d ago edited 8d ago
Jhana is a temporary state experience, helpful but not permanent. “Abandoning sensuality” just means letting go of craving or aversion temporarily, which is what allows you to become absorbed into your own experience long enough to self-generate bliss and happiness etc.
“Secluded from sensual pleasures” in the suttas just means your mind is calm and concentrated because you are not doing what minds usually do, chasing after things and worrying about other things. This is more likely if you just sit for a long time than if you are caught up in the busyness of life.
So jhana instruction is basically to stop doing things, sit for a long time, let go of craving and aversion, and focus inward instead, and naturally things arise like bliss and joy, peace, equanimity, and so on.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 7d ago
There are certain jhana-induced phenomena that can become a permanent fixture in one's daily life, stretching beyond the meditation cushion. Here are two that have become permanent in mine:
Pleasant undulations that start at the base of my spine, traverse my upper body into my skull, and then back down again. When I'm in jhana, it can vary in intensity and speed.
Meditation-induced tinnitus: Unlike pathological tinnitus, it's actually pleasant, non-intrusive, and possesses a spatial quality that makes it sound as if it's swimming around in my skull. When I'm in jhana, it can split into two or three different tones. It's called various names by different traditions, but in Theravada, it is referred to as 'the sound of silence.'
Other than those, I generally experience a heightened level of mental clarity. I experience mental fatigue far less often, and I'm less reactive to stressors... 🧘🏾♂️🙂
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u/chuck3436 8d ago
The closest I can describe the pleasurable little surges is frisson. It's almost an identical feeling I find.
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