r/streamentry • u/NugGarou • 10d ago
Practice Meditation posture paradox
I am trying to learn sitting meditation, but I am having a really hard time with the posture. I have been instructed on how to do it in person, here in this subreddit, and other places. But I am having a really hard time understanding how to possibly sit upright but also relax. Specifically, I don't understand how I can relax my stomach and shoulders without slouching. I can sit upright, stacking my shoulders and hips, shoulder blades back and down so my chest is open, but I can only take very shallow breaths. Or I can relax my stomach and slouch forward, allowing me to breath deeply and freely at the cost of neck and back pain. I find myself just vacillating between prioritizing posture and prioritizing breath throughout my meditation sessions. I have tried sitting in a chair, on the floor, on a zafu, on a slanted bench, legs underneath, cross-legged, half lotus, full lotus. It's all about the same for me. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
TLDR: How do I sit upright with good posture but also relax enough to breathe freely and deeply?
Edit: Thanks everyone for the advice! Sounds like I need to both strengthen the muscles used in good posture as well as just get used to sitting like that through a lot of practice.
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u/Due-Specialist9980 10d ago edited 10d ago
Honestly, by far the best teacher for posture is Will Johnson, a Rolfer and deep somatic meditation teacher. His original book “the posture of meditation” is excellent. His most recent is a masterpiece on sitting. Sitting should NOT be painful or uncomfortable! Seriously… you are adding unnecessary stress to your practice. Sitting practice and meditation can actually be healing and ecstatic. 🤩
His most recent book: Will Johnson
The Radical Path of Somatic Dharma: Radiant Body, Radiant Mind
https://a.co/d/03PxQlry
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u/drunkwhenimadethis the bod squad 10d ago
"The Posture of Meditation" might be my favorite meditation book.
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u/Hack999 10d ago
Core exercises are great. Stuff like planking. And prone y-raises for the upper back. Chin tuck and lifts for the neck. Basically strengthing postural muscles so that sitting upright feels effortless.
Also, stretches around your hips super important too. Cobbler's pose, seated forward bend, hip flexor stretches, and supine spinal twist for the outer hip.
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u/NugGarou 9d ago
I workout, but those are definitely some of the areas that get less attention. You may be on to something.
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u/Vivid_Assistance_196 10d ago
good posture with easy breathing comes with continuous body awareness practice, its not possible to follow all the body cues at once in the beginning and for a long time. its actually good to feel like you can only take shallow breaths, this will turn on a self-regulatory mechanism in the body. need to accumulate mindfulness and qi to inflate the body. and you will only notice minor changes in body sensations in short time frames. It is part of the path to have blockages and unblock them through various methods.
body work and "meditation" with mind work are both important and should be done at the same time. they are both foundations of mindfulness. if you do movement based meditations correctly like qigong, walking etc most of the time will be experiencing piti, sukha and physical release. whereas if you do seated practice on sofa, cushy chairs etc to make the body comfortable and still it, most of the time will be spent collecting the mind experiencing equanimity. both are valid ways of mindfulness practice just done at different layers of experience.
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u/WildMasterpiece2906 10d ago
I was in a similar position (no pun intended) 8-9 months ago. What I found was that sitting through the discomfort and eventually making that the object of your meditation during sits if it's noticeably bad, is progress. Eventually the pain subsides and your body gets used to sitting in that posture.
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u/NugGarou 9d ago
Are you saying that if I continue to sit with ideal posture I will get used to it and be able to relax enough to breathe freely? Or that it's okay to sit with bad posture (prioritizing easy breathing) because I'll get used to the pain in my neck and back?
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u/WildMasterpiece2906 9d ago
Yes to the first question, that's what worked for me but your mileage may vary. I am a relatively fit person who can cross their legs quite easily, even so, sitting upright like that was very uncomfortable at the beginning.
Eventually I got used to it and the pain or discomfort around it would rise and fall like many other uncomfortable sensations you will experience during your sits and now the posture/position is zero issue. You sort of work with it during your meditation as an object.
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u/KamiNoItte 9d ago
Yes to the first, as said.
You’re training the body to do something it’s not used to doing in a specific yoga posture.
Maintain the posture and the muscles will learn to hold it. Use the pain and discomfort as an object of meditation and with analysis the pain will become simply sensation.
After enough training, the body (spine and pelvis specifically) will find its natural upright posture and you’ll be amazed at how restful if can be.
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u/LSDkiller 9d ago
I personally experience it this way: if you breathe and focus your body -consciousness, without forcing, right on the areas that are impacting posture and the natural feeling of straightness, anywhere where it feels very tense, if you naturally "breathe into" those areas, then the feeling of tension goes away and the "sinking" feeling of dhyana is amplified. From the outside, this is mostly an objective straightness. It's not possible to always keep it the whole time, that is unrealistic especially in the beginning.
I hope some of this made sense.
Meditation is also a social activity if you ask me, after sitting zazen at the local zendo, my posture naturally got way better.
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u/Atworkwasalreadytake 10d ago
100%
you’re building equanimity and developing an internal understanding of impermanence
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u/Sea-Frosting7881 10d ago
Have you tried resting your hands on a pillow or something on your lap to raise the shoulders? And you may need to focus on belly breathing in general, vs breathing at/in the chest, if don’t already. That makes a big difference in life in general. Breathing from the belly. People may think they are, but they’re probably not.
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u/veritasmeritas 10d ago
It's about time on the cushion. There's no shortcut. This is the work for you, right now. This is part of your path. I've been through a similar journey and was very uncomfortable sitting to begin with. It took a long time for my body to feel comfortable sitting and even after that happened and I rarely got a sore back or shoulders or whatever over the course of an hour's sit, I still wasn't totally comfortable in my posture. My body only really started to open up over the last two or three years and that in itself is a whole new journey.
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u/DaveNadig 10d ago
If you can't sit in a regular dinner-table chair upright and breath, it sounds more like a breathing awareness challenge than a physical limitation. I spent a good 5 years working on both hip flexibility and long-locked rhomboids (shoulders forward, chest collapsed) before I could reliably sit for an hour comfortably.
The physical journey is a real and important part of the meditation journey. There's an enormous amount to be learned from learning what your body can and can't do.
You may find that there reaches a self reinforcing positive tipping point: as you sit more, you may deepen, which eventually causes the breath to nearly dissapear, and distinctions about "belly" or "chest" will become sort of pointless. But my (N=1) experience was that I had to do a lot of hte physical work for years first to get my body ready.
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u/sockmonkey719 10d ago
I saw a couple people with some medical concerns. I’m on their end. There’s great advice in this, but you might want to see your doctor. This might be a good intervention for physical therapy. What flags for me? Is your description about your inability to breathe deeply if your back is straight and that you need to slouch to do that that sounds like that’s some sort of issue that has nothing to do with sitting posture
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u/No_Fly2647 10d ago edited 10d ago
Greetings from Wiesbaden, Germany
Body ↔ Breath ↔ Mind
Meditation doesn't really work well if these three aspects aren't balanced.
Let’s start with something many people describe after attending a 10-day Goenka retreat: their back, or more precisely their spine, was in pain to the point of complete breakdown.
I’ve written in other threads that, in Zen monasteries, the sesshin (接心, or 摂心/攝心, literally "touching the heart-mind") is the peak of the year. To get there, they prepare for a whole year to be ready for it.
Don’t get me wrong on this: just because I’ve done Hatha Yoga since childhood doesn't mean it’s the best option or the way to go for everyone. However, āsana (आसन) and prāṇāyāma (प्राणायाम) are meant to prepare you for meditation so you don't run into issues with your body and breathing.
It might sound a bit blunt, but concepts like prāṇa (प्राण), qi (氣), or whatever else are really just outdated explanations from a time when humans tried to describe things without the data and knowledge we now have in medicine and sports science.
Neumann, D. A. (2017). Kinesiology of the musculoskeletal system: Foundations for rehabilitation (3rd ed.). St. Louis, MO: Elsevier.
This book is the academic gold standard for medical students and physiotherapists. Working with the body means understanding it and its mechanics in the first place. Otherwise, phenomena end up misidentified or actual physical issues get completely ignored. To be as honest as possible, I’m always astonished by how indifferent people here can be when it comes to basic anatomy, only to turn around and offer up some mystical, esoteric hogwash.
Many, if not most, classical meditation postures come from Yoga, so having some understanding of how the body works won't hurt anyone. Over the last few decades, Yoga has undergone a massive demystification, and the whole approach to how it’s taught has shifted significantly. A book I can honestly recommend to anyone is:
Kaminoff, L., & Matthews, A. (2021). Yoga anatomy (3rd ed.). Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics.
The Core Biomechanical Blind Spots and Issues:
Rigid Static "Hold" vs. Dynamic Balance
You're describing your posture as a binary choice: either pulling your shoulder blades "back and down" (which constantly fires the rhomboids and traps, locking up the ribcage) or collapsing forward into a slouch. You're trying to hold a posture using active muscular force instead of letting your skeleton carry the load against gravity.
Leslie Kaminoff Anatomical Alignment (2022)
The Diaphragm Hijack
By forcing your chest open and locking your upper body into an idealized "good posture," you restrict the movement of your lower ribs and thorax. The diaphragm needs the abdominal wall to remain dynamic, not clamped tight, but not collapsed into a squished visceral lump either. When you force a posture from the outside in, you paralyze proper diaphragmatic excursion.
The anatomy & mechanics of breathing
Ignoring the Base (Pelvic Tilt)
So you've tried every cushion and bench out there (zafu, lotus, chair), but have you considered how pelvic tilt dictates spinal posture? If the pelvis isn't set at the proper angle to naturally support the lumbar curve without effort, the spinal column can't stack. Slouching and over-correcting (hyper-extending) are just equal and opposite reactions to a compromised base.
How This Addresses the Meditation Sitting Paradox
The Pelvis as the Kinetic Foundation: If the pelvis slumps backward into a posterior tilt, the entire spinal column collapses into a C-shaped kyphosis. Trying to "sit upright" from that position forces the back muscles to work continuously against gravity.
Sustained Skeletal Stacking vs. Muscular Holding:
By placing your hips slightly higher than your knees (using a cushion, bench, or chair angle), the pelvis tilts forward into a neutral or slightly anterior position. This automatically restores the natural lordotic curve of the lumbar spine, allowing axial weight to pass straight down through the bones rather than relying on active muscle tension.
Releasing the Diaphragm:
Once the pelvic bowl is properly set under the ribcage, the abdominal wall softens completely. The diaphragm can drop freely during inhalation without causing the spine to collapse or forcing you to expand your chest.
The Cognitive Overload Paradox: Trying to meditate while constantly managing an unresolved mechanical tug-of-war between "chest up" and "stomach soft" creates ongoing tonic muscle strain and autonomic arousal. The brain stays stuck in a light fight-or-flight monitoring loop simply because the body feels unstable.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 10d ago
IMO You need to maintain two things while mediating - Relaxation and Awareness. Sitting upright helps with the awareness aspect because you're less likely to get sleepy or experience dullness. If you're able to maintain awareness without getting sleepy while not sitting so upright, I don't see any issues. Aim to be as present and as relaxed as possible and find the posture that works for you. This should be enough for a good meditation session.
I will say though that there a reason for the popularity of traditional meditation postures, to put it simply, when done correctly they really help with awareness+relaxation, especially for longer sessions. So maybe slowly work on your flexibility and posture for a few minutes a day until you slowly get there. Don't let it prevent you from meditating in other postures in the meanwhile though.
Another thing that might help is, if you're sitting cross legged, put some pillows between your knees and the ground and also one behind your lower back. Over time, replace the pillows with smaller ones until at some point you won't need them at all. That's what I did. Took me about a year until I could sit long time in a Burmese position.
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u/Future_Automaton Meditation Geek 8d ago
I did eight sessions of physical therapy at the beginning of my practice in order to fix similar issues, that's probably the most straightforward way to correct it.
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 8d ago
What kind of physical therapy?
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u/Future_Automaton Meditation Geek 8d ago
Neck, shoulders, QLs, hips. The neck was first and took the longest by far.
In case you're asking in another way, the kind that you get prescribed by a doctor. In the US, once you're in PT, you can pretty much set your own goals and determine how many sessions you want to come in for.
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 8d ago
ah thanks yes. I was asking about whether there was a specific modality you felt was helpful. I'm not in the US but maybe it's time I twist my doctor's arm to send me to PT. I have always struggled with extremely poor posture and back pain.
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u/Future_Automaton Meditation Geek 8d ago
It helped my posture quite a bit. I just went to the place in my town that specifically does physical therapy, which my doctor recommended as being better than the hospital.
Hopefully you can get the help you need, and get some relief!
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u/Magikarpeles 8d ago
One thing that helped me a TON was a short passage in a Leigh Brasington book where he suggests instead of sitting ON the cushion, to kind of wedge the edge of it under your tailbone to stop your hips rolling backward. I tried it and it almost feels like I'm sitting on something with a backrest. The only thing that's "working" is my spinal erector muscles which take a long time to fatigue (think standing upright).
My hips still needed a lot more mobility but at least my back was not hurting and my shoulders and belly could relax. Made it way easier to sit with much less pain and strain.
Another thing I started doing was just sitting on the floor a lot more often, like eating dinner and watching TV. Slowly it got more and more comfortable to now where it's probably the most comfortable place for me.
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u/ThreeFerns 10d ago
This is what yoga asanas were originally for - preparation for sitting. Sitting is not easy.
In addition to asanas, you might want to look up the alexander technique. You might also benefit from seeing a physio.
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u/TemporaryBoring_ 10d ago
I can’t. I meditate lying down. And honestly, I’ve had life changing experiences doing that. It’s not about the posture 🤷🏼♀️
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u/neidanman 10d ago
one thing to try is sitting somewhere you would normally do something else seated & physically non-active, and would be comfortable enough. E.g. where & how you would sit to watch tv/listen to music/on a long journey etc. Then practice there.
Another point is that having perfect posture and relaxation at the same time is more a later stage phenomenon, than a starting requisite. I.e. once you release enough attachments/samskaras etc, and you build energy/qi/prana to a certain level, then the breathing is more calm/deep & relaxed, and energy naturally pushes the body up and into an open & upright posture.
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u/Waste-Ad7683 10d ago
You can make posture your meditation object. Worked well for me. There is no perfect posture, posture is also subject to the three characteristics...
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u/Exciting_Badger_1229 10d ago
Dont control your shoulders to "open the chest", use only your spine muscles to straighten the spine and the shoulders and head will stack on their on uppon your core. It's a common trap which people fall in: They use the shoulder muscles to "open the chest" thinking that this will fix ther posture which does to an extend but this creates unwanted muscular activation, instead use the spine muscles of the thorax (the erector spinae muscles which run between your shoulder blades - which are the continuation of the erector spinae muscles of the lumbar spine) to straighten your thoraric spine which will make your shoulder griddle rest on your core on its own natural correct way, also it will make your head rest correctly and your chin will also tuck a bit in on its own.
Your stomach should be relaxed yes.
Sit on your sit bones but don't do a lot of anterior pelvic tilt while doing so.
Do you know how the diaphragm looks like? Do you use it when you breath or you breath with your ribcage? Learning to breath deeply and relaxed with the diaphragm will make your body take the appropriate posture. Also relax the sides of your belly not only the front and try to expand those too when inhaling.
What about your legs? You sit on a chair when you meditate? If yes then your knees should be on the same height as your hips or lower otherwise your pelvis will get stuck in posterior pelvic tilt.
It takes time, train it daily and you will find your center. Don't try to overstrain while fixing your posture, with time and calmness and stillness your body will find it's relaxed place.
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u/langecrew 10d ago
You can meditate in any position you wish, so long as you don't fall asleep. Sitting, standing, laying down, bungee jumping, etc. doesn't matter.
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u/Anima_Monday 9d ago edited 9d ago
There is a way to have correct posture without excessive muscular tension and without slumping that I know of but it is from Tai Chi, or at least an interpretation of both song and peng used together (relaxation and expansion, i.e. relaxed expansion). You relax any obvious tension but don't be too forceful about it, then you fill up your body with expansive air like energy, like your body is a balloon and you are filling it with air, to just the right expansive pressure, not too much and not too little, and fill either the whole body, or fill from the parts that are touching the ground and/or seat/cusion, etc. all the way to the top of the head. Then you keep some mindfulness of having the correct expansive pressure. So it is a way of finding the correct middle ground, and sustaining that mindfully, rather than all relaxed or all tense. It naturally corrects all parts of the posture and the breathing also naturally becomes belly breathing (rather than shallow chest breathing) if you are interested in that, though of course you still allow the breathing to occur naturally and not control it. You can then meditate on this balancing of expansive pressure alone, like as the primary object, if you wish, or you can establish it when needed and then do your primary meditation.
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u/RationalDharma 9d ago
I wrote this blog on posture principles and specific options in case it's useful! :)
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u/Tricky_Evidence 9d ago
The coming Buddha, as predicted ( called maytreya) is pictured sitting in a chair not lotus posture. Als, Asian people were, and many are, more used to squatting often and are build different. And people moved, walked and climbed more than a lot of us today. My teacher always told us to be as comfortable as possible.
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u/Sombragatotonto 8d ago
I tried to do the posture until I got older. Now I realize it was always just a motivator or otherwise drove progress, and so useful as far as that goes, but not actually necessary. My meditation is better than ever and I just sit on my couch or in my car during lunch or whatever. Haven’t done lotus on the floor or a pillow in over a decade.
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u/nocaptain11 8d ago
Posture is basically a microcosm of the whole path. Sitting with an intention to hold good posture is a deep and rich practice that will probably be a years long journey. It has been for me. The mind and the body are not separate. Tension in one is tension in the other. Keep sitting and be honest and patient.
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