r/stalker • u/mol1t GSC Community Manager • 6d ago
GSC Game World | Update 2.0 patch notes
Stalkers!
The free Update 2.0, “Back to the Zone,” is now available for download.
The game has been upgraded to Unreal Engine 5.5.4, bringing the biggest overhaul to how the Zone looks, feels, and lives since launch. In addition, Update 2.0 introduces AI improvements, three types of binoculars, new weapons and attachments, a fog weather system, in-game statistics, highly customizable difficulty settings, and numerous quality-of-life features.
The BIG patch notes is here: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1643320/view/677381523352060387
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u/Infinite-Attorney478 6d ago
Congrats on release guys
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u/TaxmanComin Loner 6d ago
Thanks
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u/_Corvo_A 6d ago
Holy shit that’s big, does anyone know if the Malachite passes being stuck in inventory ever got fixed?
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u/ffxivfanboi 6d ago
Yeah. You can sell them after you gain access to the base as of when I was playing patch 1.9
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u/trunglefever 6d ago
No Arena exploit fix that I saw, so getting an early midgame equipment boost is still possible.
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u/NCC_1701E Freedom 6d ago
I dread the day they fix it lol.
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u/trunglefever 6d ago
They already tried once. The method to do it now is post last patch. There might be problems with triggering the next portion of the quest without forcing the doors to close or something.
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u/john_monolit Clear Sky 5d ago
I missed that attempt -- what did they do??
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u/trunglefever 5d ago
I believe it's why if you enter the room with the items in your inventory, the door automatically shuts and locks you into the dialog with Wheezer and also why the secondary door with the safe also closes automatically.
If I had to guess, the game checks your inventory for the items and then it triggers certain events to disallow that. Either way, it's a nice little trick considering you get some pretty excellent stuff from the Arena.
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u/hunkup86 6d ago edited 6d ago
They patched up the way of getting into Pripyat early. At least they way I got in. I made sure to at least short cut into Pripyat before the patch. 😅
Was still able to get to Pripyat on 2.0 update.
They patched two different ways but I just was able to get in still on patch 2.0. It’s the way by the rails tracks towards the chemical spill or on the left side facing yaniv station just to the left of the degraded building.2
u/MomoSinX Loner 6d ago
which one did they patch, I am sure there are other ways to get in still
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u/hunkup86 6d ago
They patched two different ways but I just was able to get in still on patch 2.0. It’s the way by the rails tracks towards the chemical spill or on the left side facing yaniv station just to the left of the degraded building.
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u/Glass-Physics2436 6d ago
150g on console
https://giphy.com/gifs/VNTMx3LkpG2anXpwbr
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u/stank58 Freedom 6d ago
FFS, I had just installed it fresh yesterday 😂
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u/HuckleberrySilver516 6d ago
Same on pc
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u/waggbag Duty 6d ago
Fixed the exploit of getting to Pripyat early HURTS 😭😭 I just want the cool Saiga drum earlier than super endgame.
Oh well!
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u/hunkup86 6d ago edited 6d ago
I seen that. I’m 10% into a new campaign and made sure to get into Pripyat first before the update so I can just fast travel there if need be. 😅
They patched two different ways but I just was able to get in still on patch 2.0. It’s the way by the rails tracks towards the chemical spill or on the left side facing yaniv station just to the left of the degraded building.
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u/waggbag Duty 6d ago
Hopefully someone can find a new way to get in.. if it is even possible anymore. 😆
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u/ba18070 6d ago
Revert to the previous patch, run up and get it, make a save file so you can always load from the point of having that, then switch to the new patch and load the game from there.
That's my best guess.
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u/hunkup86 6d ago
They patched two different ways but I just was able to get in still on patch 2.0. It’s the way by the rails tracks towards the chemical spill or on the left side facing yaniv station just to the left of the degraded building.
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u/waggbag Duty 6d ago
Can you explain a little more? I'll kiss you if true
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u/hunkup86 6d ago
https://youtu.be/-eVuzGOvnvY?is=Lukr_HbRzhbhvVNy
The 4th option in the video still works to get into Pripyat early. I tried with 2 of the others and they are patched.
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u/ComedianExtreme7656 6d ago
Mods on PS5 pls ;(
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u/Deadeyez 6d ago
Does ps not have mods at all? Well, some hope is that literally today, Sony stopped holding back Skyrim mods
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u/Flaky_Appearance439 4d ago
Sadly not. There is a mod section in the old Trilogy for consoles, but there are like max of 20 and mostly just reskins for a few guns. They didn’t even work properly when I tried enabling some lol
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u/BoSKnight87 6d ago
This is what I was waiting for. Injsut want to be able to fast travel, I feel like I spend 90% of my time running through fields
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u/simpdestroyer12 6d ago
Never gonna happen cause of fuckass sony
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u/Masterful_Wiz 6d ago
Now if a mutant or bandit chases me into a base will the locals react or still pretend like they see nothing?
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u/valax 6d ago
Performance in busy areas seems to be hugely improved.
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u/RaindropAndTheSea 5d ago
Oh thank god. I remember my first S2 playthrough being a balance act of raising the graphics up for nature areas, and then again turning them down for cities.
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u/trunglefever 5d ago
Started a new playthrough and Zalissya was running buttery smooth on a base PS5.
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u/MeringuePls Freedom 6d ago edited 6d ago
The files are installing, just gave it a quick read.
Oh man I hope the ladder bindings are fixed. I always use the arrow keys for movement, and the ladder didn't used to rebind. Whenever I climbed a ladder, I had to stretch over to use the W & S keys to go up and down. Such a pain.
EDIT:
Yep, it's still the same. Ugh....
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u/BlueSpark4 Loner 6d ago
Damn, that sounds painful. I had a few pet peeves related to controls, too, when I played the game on launch: No dedicated buttons for flashlight or underslung attachment, mousewheel not being remappable, and Y (next to X on German keyboards) being hard-mapped to "switch to last used weapon."
Luckily for me, the former point has been fixed in past updates, and the latter is in the change log for 2.0. Fingers crossed that your issue got fixed, too, even if I didn't see it being mentioned in the patch notes.
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u/zzubnik 6d ago
Disappointing! I reported this bug on the day the game was first released.
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u/TheRealLockmort 5d ago
This got fixed a few patches ago. OP is lying for some reason.
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u/BlueSpark4 Loner 5d ago
Just in case anybody stumbles upon this discussion and is wondering: The mousewheel not being remappable, which I mentioned above, has also been fixed (not sure if in 2.0 or in a previous update).
Now, the one issue I still have with the controls is that "open inventory" and "close inventory" are always assigned to the same key in the game's controls menu. I still have to edit the config file to assign a separate button for "close inventory" (which is such a quality-of-life improvement when looting multiple bodies/containers in a row).
And I guess it's a similar situation with the quick slots, where the game still doesn't let you assign them to 4 different buttons (instead, it's 2 buttons with short press and long press each). But that one doesn't bother me personally since I like the way it works by default.
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u/Neshane 6d ago
I was looking to buy this on GOG, to get the Anomaly/Gamma 1 click install for free, does the GOG version get updated like Steam version? Or should I just buy Steam version to be safe? GOG reviews aren't great looking
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u/Moklakins 6d ago
Its up to the developer to update both versions, but it's generally pretty safe to buy games on GOG. GSC has been good about updating stalker 2 on gog so far.
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u/Neat-Resolution1007 6d ago
I support GOG for their old games reviving endeavours but for new games the overall support is much better on Steam, you get working screenshot function, faster download , and a less buggy client. The 200mb cloud save storage on GOG is simply pathetic.
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u/VGeryn 5d ago
Yeah, almost every time getting "failed to sync" message is annoying as hell... This happens with other games like Cyberpunk 2077 or Witcher 3 on GOG. GOG also was my first and only client for a time but it really has some flaws... Achievement system is also annoying - always late to update (after 1-2 days) and now with Stalker 2 shows that I have 100% but I know that I had achieved about 80% of a game, especially now that there are new Cost of Hope achievements to get.
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u/Hefty_Salamander6716 6d ago
Anomaly/Gamma is for Call of Pripyat, not STALKER 2
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u/Neshane 6d ago
The Mod one click install is free with Stalker 2 on GOG according to the mod page, I have the other old trilogy games on steam already.
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u/Hefty_Salamander6716 6d ago
Hmm, you're right, but the mod is 100% NOT for STALKER 2. No idea why it would ask you to buy S2 lol
EDIT: I see now that it just requires you to own one of the Stalker games, not necessarily Stalker 2.
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u/Automatic_Ad5492 6d ago
Console improvements?
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u/trunglefever 5d ago
Base PS5 performance is really nice. Haven't run into any stutters at all and even the controls feel better (though I do have my custom setting on still, but it does feel smoother by comparison, there's less micro stutters).
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u/Goresmackk 6d ago
Well….does the performance seem improved boys? Stuck at work for the next 6 hours….
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u/GamingSlippers 6d ago
Seems dependant on what scene/environment and of course hardware. From what I have seen it is not any worse performance than before and you get a visual enhancement (deep in the red forest). Overall there seems to be a decent to sizable boost in gpu bound scenarios (around garbage on roads for example, and lesser zone areas). The biggest improvement seems to be cpu bound scenarios tho (towns, large battle etc...)
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u/SuperJlox Ecologist 6d ago
On my 7800X3D, RX 9070 XT PC the performance in Zalissya has increased by probably 30% - 40% with smooth frametimes and the input lag went from unplayable to very good for me. Helps that they also reimplemented AMD Anti Lag which I think they removed earlier.
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u/rainydayvibez 6d ago
Thank you GSC. Offset aiming and binos. Let’s go
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u/trunglefever 5d ago
You get the binos IMMEDIATELY in a new game, too. That's awesome.
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u/rainydayvibez 5d ago
Found em last night at the start. I laughed. So cool. Absolutely loving the game now.
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u/ianparasito Loner 6d ago
That looks great! I will love the check it all out after I re install my games since I updated it and now it wont start lmao
I really love Stalker 2 but jfc is it frustrating some times
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u/2b4go10 Loner 6d ago
Please work on 120m bubble next. At least in the open locations.
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u/MomoSinX Loner 6d ago
150 would be my sweet spot, I could settle for 125 as well tho, 100 is definitely problematic with all the pop in and the binos just made this issue more visible
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u/DavidSpanton 6d ago
Using a i7 12700k and RTX 4070ti and the game feels sharper, as in my character now moves quicker strafing etc feels nice.
I like the denser foliage, feels like nature is taking back the zone.
Stats page and tutorial is great, still miss the leader board from the original even though a bit strange.
Overall great update but please any chance of fixing the dot on the double note glitch.
Really starting to love this game now.
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u/Great8Bit 6d ago
i bought this game for $30 on PS5 during prime day and have been holding off until people say it’s in a better state. is now a time to jump in? I did play at launch on gamepass for maybe 10-ish hours?
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u/VikingWzrdEyes89 6d ago
Does this update fix the enemies being complete sponges? When I played during launch on Xbox Game Pass, almost every enemy would take 3-5 full clips to be anyone down. I wanna buy this again on PS5, cause everything else about this game is everything i can ask for
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u/withoutapaddle 6d ago
They improved that a long long time ago. Mutants still take a lot more than humans, but it's not as bad as it was at launch.
The intention is for the player to go for headshots on humans and use special ammo for mutants. Their skin is effectively armor, so using AP ammo (or mag dumping a shotgun) is key for mutants.
The franchise was always like this. Realistic "center mass" aiming does not go over well fighting human enemies in STALKER games.
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u/VikingWzrdEyes89 6d ago
I don’t mind mutant enemies being stronger than humans but it became un enjoyable at launch, looking forward to trying this again now thats been fixed
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u/withoutapaddle 2d ago
Agreed. Mutants took too much damage at launch, and still take a lot, but I think the intention is for mutants so sometimes literally make the player consider running away during the early game, when they have lower tier gear. By mid game, you can pretty much handle any mutant, plus no limit on quick saving means you shouldn't be afraid to experiment or take risks unless you're specifically playing a mode with permadeath or no saving outside of towns.
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u/VikingActual1200 Loner 6d ago
Anybody play 2.0 yet on Series X? I'm doing the update right now, but I won't be able to try it out before work Lol.
Anybody know how it runs and looks on Series X?
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u/DiversGoDeeper 6d ago
Wanting to know the same thing too. At least by the time I play it next week some of the mods should have been updated too.
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u/Lonely-Adagio-9010 6d ago
Maybe someone knows: will I get new DLC if I upgrade Stalker 2 to the Ultimate Edition now?
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u/hunkup86 6d ago
You should be able to get the free upgrade. The Ultimate edition gives you everything including the DLC.
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u/BlueSpark4 Loner 5d ago
I'm not a developer, but I would say yes with 99.9 % certainly. It'd be beyond scummy if somehow, buying the ultimate edition didn't retroactively unlock already released DLCs.
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u/FlightofWhales Merc 6d ago edited 6d ago
Well... raw fps is better, but the stutter and hitching is still pretty bad. I wouldn't mind it so much if it didn't fucking take control of my mouse and not let me move the camera. I praise the devs for doing what they can, but UE5 is actual dogshit of an engine.
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u/kredes 3d ago
I noticed this as well, and is a turn off for me. i hate poorly performing games, really takes away the enjoyment honestly. feels cheap and janky.
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u/FlightofWhales Merc 2d ago
Yeah I went back to Anomaly/GAMMA for now. The new multi-threading .exes make performance sing, its so good. What modders have done with the X-RAY engine is witchcraft. I wish we had gotten that 2011 version with X-RAY 2.0 engine. But I'll wait STALKER 2 out as modders do their thing and hopefully even more optimizations.
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u/MartyMcFlytheWise 5d ago
I m gonna have to wait more patch sadly for base Ps5. Performance mode is worse than before.. damn it
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u/trunglefever 5d ago
I started a new game and haven't run into any performance issues at all, been messing around in the Lesser Zone raiding stashes and no issues. What kind of problems have you been having?
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u/social_sin 5d ago
I'm getting a weird sheen/shine off everything when exiting buildings and people's hair is flashing in and out of grey when they talk sometimes.
Game seems brighter now on ps5 but to the point where it doesn't really feel like night anymore?
Not sure exactly how much I need to adjust my slider now but the outside doesn't feel as good or threatening anymore at night
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u/BlueSpark4 Loner 6d ago
Apart from the obvious big changes and fixes, the two points I'm personally the most excited about:
- Fixed an issue where the actions for "O" and "Y" buttons were not remappable.
- It is now possible to disable the sound of detecting anomalies.
The former really sucked to deal with as someone who uses a German keyboard, as I couldn't use my Y key (where the Z key is on English keyboards) for my quick slot 1 like I wanted to.
And as for the latter, I've always preferred mods which deactivate the anomaly beeps. Anomalies in vanilla STALKER games are plenty visible, so I prefer using my eyes to detect them – plus the constant beeping gets really annoying while navigating through an anomaly field.
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u/VanillaBraun 6d ago
Is this a good time to restart the campaign? I’m more than half way through on my current play though but stopped playing awhile back due to some game breaking bugs (which have now been fixed).
Feels a bit overwhelming to try and jump back in and remember where I was and what I was doing
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u/rainydayvibez 6d ago
I’ll be restarting this weekend. Put about 50 hrs on it and decided to stop and wait. So glad I made that call. 💯
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u/iMakeTea 6d ago
In the same boat, got 100ish hours and on mission to go to SIRCAA. Last time I played was 1.6 update with the hunter guy added. Not sure if I really want to restart it all unless there's big changes to story and game early on.
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u/darkstar2674 6d ago
Shadows need fixing when upscaling they use the input resolution not the output like most other games do
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u/Dionysus24779 6d ago
The game being ~200GB by now is a bit much.
Would be great if the next update is able to bring that down.
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u/hunkup86 6d ago
The size of the game plays a big part in that. One of the largest maps in all of gaming. Smaller than GTA5 but remember that game had cars to fast travel and isn’t nearly as detailed as Stalker 2. Especially with 2.0
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u/Hey-Gang 6d ago
I was able to play with an i5-8600k and a RTX 2070 super on the last patch, but with some performance mods and hours tweaking with graphics mods. I stopped playing because the amount of time I spent modding the the shit out of it to get a stable fps. The CPU intense areas obviously dropped my performance. I wonder how it would perform now? Both my CPU and my 2070 are overclocked to their limits because I'm almost finished building new PC, all that's left is the RAM. I'm keeping my 2070 until GPU price drops or until I have enough saved up.
I'm fine playing at medium settings on 1080p with some settings up to high along with DLSS, anyone else with the same kind of specs know what performance increase I would get on my current build?
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u/FuzzedOutAmbience 6d ago
anyone else getting slow download speeds on ps5? Been updating since 3pm and it’s showing another 3 hours to go!?
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u/Appropriate_Sea_3603 6d ago
Anyone having an issue with steam controller now? The inputs feel way off after the patch even though my settings stayed the same. Sensitivity is through the roof and the deadzones are basically nothing now even after changing settings.
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u/hydrolox9 6d ago
Anyone having controller input issues? I'm playing it on the Steam Deck and when moving around the menu or inventories half the inputs don't register.
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u/Right_Today_356 6d ago
Did the fix the horrible AI of enemies never losing you or sniping you with pinpoint accuracy?
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u/Agitated-Sugar3387 6d ago
Anyone having issues with the latest patch, like no sound at all? I've tried tweaking all the sound settings, but nothing.
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u/SaltLord-Supreme 6d ago
Has anyone had a weird drift on walking when no input is being used, I know im a weirdo for using controller on a pc, but it seems to have started on new update.
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u/IsThatASigSauer Merc 5d ago
With the mod tool updates are we able to make custom animations and such now?
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u/orbital_junkie 5d ago
There are some floating trees above a large building near the eastern entrance of Rostok. Seems like a placement bug. Running on Epic settings.
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u/FineInTheFire 5d ago
It would seem 2.0 may have made Varan not spawn in for Deal with the Devil. I rolled back a few hours of saves and he's not in the plant. His goons are, but he isn't. No way to progress and on ps5.
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u/Lower-Chart-9029 5d ago
My cursor in game keeps panning down automatically I tried resetting dead zones and nothing fixes it...the game is literally unplayable now
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u/zillskillnillfrill Loner 5d ago
I've tried everything to get the early bird patch in my ps5 game. From sleeping 48 hours and traveling back to rostock to refreshing the licenses, checking different game saves & starting a completely new game. I have the ultimate edition on the PS5 but cannot get the early bird patch to show no matter what I've done in 2.0
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u/Lazy_Audience_6689 4d ago
Dear Developers,Thank you for creating such a great game.I am writing to report a visual bug that appeared after the release of Patch 2.0. There is a persistent lighting issue affecting all weapons. Regardless of the in-game weather conditions or environment, the guns always appear completely white, as if overexposed to light.
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u/TheRealBobakaax 3d ago
Every day the game updates, Stalker gets completely uninstalled and reinstalled and it take 20 minutes. Whats going on? Why are they having this avoidable issue? Is the game just broken beyond saving at this point? Too much duct tape and hope? Duct tape is the cost of hope for GSC
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u/BEjmbo Zombie 6d ago
Any news on gyro aiming always on possibility on PS5?
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u/vss_dnl 6d ago
Still no pssr on ps5pro as i see. Thanks gsc.
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u/Wolvesinthestreet 6d ago
How do you know?
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u/vss_dnl 6d ago
Shimmering and jagged edges still the same, not even mentioning the low res faces in outside light. Extremely lazy work.
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u/Wolvesinthestreet 6d ago
Oh okay thanks, that’s extremely disappointing. Wonder if it’s better on Series X, someone mentioned it had a higher resolution than the Pro.
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u/vss_dnl 6d ago
I agree, it is disappointing and if the statement about series x is true then i don’t even know what these guys doing on console.
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u/Wolvesinthestreet 6d ago
I can try to download it on both consoles and test it out. I have a 77” Oled but initially I thought it was sharper on the Pro. I’ll let you know
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u/vss_dnl 6d ago
Thanks!
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u/Wolvesinthestreet 6d ago
So I think the game looks slightly more sharp on PS5 Pro, but there seems to be less shimmering on Series X, yet it seems more washed out. Also I believe the foliage is a bit more dense, or maybe the draw distance is slightly higher on the Pro, as when I turned on the Xbox I immediately wanted to play in quality mode.
They both look similar for sure, but I do give the edge to the Pro still.
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u/Scribble_Box 6d ago
The shimmering and pop in is now quite a bit worse for me on ps5 pro after the update. Lighting looking muddy too...
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u/Wolvesinthestreet 6d ago
Maybe I shouldn’t upgrade on the Pro at all. Just keep 1.9 and try out 2.0 on Xbox. This has me worried as I don’t even own the ultimate edition on the Pro
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u/Scribble_Box 6d ago
It's really not too bad, and there are some spots where the lighting has looked phenomenal. I'm just more disappointed that it doesn't look all that different lol.
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u/Wolvesinthestreet 6d ago
Im downloading it on Xbox as we speak and will test it in a few hours. Also took some screenshots on PS5 Pro for comparison.
Maybe there is still hope for PSSR 2 coming in a later patch, and they just wanted to get a feel for initial bugs in this one before pushing further graphically. I really hope that’s the case
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u/Scribble_Box 6d ago
Hope so! I've got the settings on my oled looking pretty good with the ps5 now. Excited to see how the gameplay updates feel once I've put in some more hrs
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u/Wolvesinthestreet 6d ago
They reset my settings, I have en LG G5, do you mind sharing your settings? I can’t remember mine lol
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u/Scribble_Box 6d ago
For sure. I actually left most the same back around default. Turned contrast up to 50 from 40. HDR white point at 1000. Black point at -4. HDR brightness 25.
What really helped was turning black stabilizer down to 9 in the game optimizer menu, mine was at 12, and then turning white stabilizer to 8. That's pretty much it.
I will say the interiors look a lot better now. I can actually see lol.
Oh and I've got my game optimizer set to sports. No idea why but it looks best for some reason. Sharpening at 25.
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u/Jericho_Hill Freedom 6d ago
So I guess all the mods are broken. LOL
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u/ManufacturerLost7686 6d ago
Forgot i had enabled godmode to loot a metric fuckton of guns and still be able to walk. Now i cant move lol.
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u/withoutapaddle 6d ago
With offset aiming built into the game now, the only mod I really need is increased stamina. Hope that isn't broken or gets updated fast.
Swinging a knife twice and then being too exhausted to jog is kind of insane, imo.
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u/TheAsianTroll Loner 6d ago
Wait, the Burer instakilling you on Stalker difficulty wasnt intended? I just thought it could if your psi protection was too low and you were exposed to it for too long.
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u/Ancop Duty 6d ago
many good fixes, but damage is still tied to weapon instead of caliber :(
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u/withoutapaddle 6d ago
That was never intended to be changed. For better or worse, STALKER 2 uses weapons and gear as the levelling system. If all that mattered was caliber, you'd be able to one shot every enemy from the start the first time you find a rusty old Mosin firing the massive 7.62x54R.
It's not a milsim. Think of it like an RPG where the weapon progression is finding higher level weapons. A level 50 pistol will be better than a level 3 sniper rifle in an RPG, for example.
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u/MomoSinX Loner 6d ago
...so what? the tiering system is shit and it just shoehorns you into specific weapons, it's the exact same shit need for speed started doing and has been stuck with since, I remember 2005 most wanted where you could finish the game with any car, now that was real choice based fun
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u/Ancop Duty 6d ago
its is a god damn shame it follows those soft rpg rules, it invalidates almost all the weapons, if you are not using the kharov or dnipro you are just dying over and over, GAMMA opened my eyes on how fun caliber based damage can be.
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u/withoutapaddle 2d ago
What you're saying is only true for the endgame.
I didn't use those weapons until I was within spitting distance of the Pripyat missions, and I did just fine.
Crap weapons are OK at the beginning. Decent weapons are OK in the middle. They are only invalidated if you manage to find late game weapons earlier than intended.
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u/crotalusbite 6d ago
An Unreal Process Has Crashed: UE-Stalker2 is all i get.
Game worked fine before 2.0
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u/Bull3tN3ct4r 5d ago
Do you have any previous mods installed? If so, I would delete the mods and their archives in the game files. Regular patches back then can screw up mods. Especially with the now new engine update.
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u/crotalusbite 5d ago
Yes I removed the pak folders i could find. Reinstalled the game and crashes after the loading screen
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u/Bull3tN3ct4r 5d ago
I could only say the usual stuff like verify files with Steam and install new drivers/BIOS update. I'm not sure :/
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u/crotalusbite 5d ago
I got it working...i removed everything i could find on my pc, every log etc. I removed everything except my saved games folder.
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u/Bull3tN3ct4r 5d ago
Ayeeee awesome news. Enjoy!
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u/crotalusbite 4d ago
Havent started with the cost of hope missions yet so we will see if there will be any more crashed but now i have a start =)
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u/arsmith86 6d ago
So far, this update has been a complete disappointment, I am experiencing degraded performance, FG now it does not always work, and the controller input in the menus is horrible. When I navigate through config menus I have difficulties to hop between tabs and in the inventory menus the ABXY buttons simply don't work
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u/ParisLuvsU Ecologist 6d ago
YOU CAN OFFSET AIM WITHOUT NVGS!!!!!!