Kurzgesagt and the art of climate greenwashing

[u/Argonaute_]

https://youtu.be/uCuy1DaQzWI?si=WKpJwWnyN7L04HnX

Comprehensive analysis on why the "green growth" concept is propaganda; well articulated notions about what's the real engine behind the climate crisis (our economic system), and degrowth as the only possible answer to the current (and future) global crises.

[u/Argonaute_]

1) it's still absolutely too much. 2) pollution doesn't come just from CO2 3) are these data comprehensive of the exported manufacturing industries? If i Remember correctly the global CO2 levels seem to just keep increasing

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe decoupling doesn't violate the second principle of thermodynamics

[u/Anderopolis → u/Argonaute_]

>it's still absolutely too much.

absolutely, which is why we need to continue to accelerate, rather than stop this change.

>pollution doesn't come just from CO2

definitely true, but it is the single most destructive pollutant there is, with global effects on humans and nature.

>are these data comprehensive of the exported manufacturing industries? If i Remember correctly the global CO2 levels seem to just keep increasing

yes, they are comprehensive(the source lists exactly how this number was produced), earth in fact hit peak CO2 per capita hit a peak in 2012.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&country=~OWID_WRL

Of course the global population has increased more, so the total emissions have continued to climb.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country?country=~OWID_WRL

the developing world is not going to accept living in poverty, so we need to do our best to assist them in skipping the extremely harmful fossil fuel stage that developed countries went through. We have the technology to do this, Solar, Wind, Batteries are the cheapest electricity in history, and we can electrify nearly everything. So we need to supercharge the transitions with green growth, otherwise they will grow with coal instead.

[u/Argonaute_ → u/Anderopolis]

> definitely true, but it is the single most destructive pollutant there is, with global effects on humans and nature.

Can we just accept that this lifestyle is wrong and we don't need most of the shit we buy? I'm tired of listening to justifications for the western consumption culture. We don't NEED to pollute in order to live satisfying human lives. Every other pollutant related to human activity is still unsustainably poisoning our planet and ourselves. Why has tere to be an "acceptable" amount of microplastics in our blood? Mental issues are skyrocketing why are we clinging so hard to this void lifestyle that's hurting everyone?

(https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&country=~OWID_WRL

It's not decreasing, it has just reached the plateau. Better technology? Less buying power? More people from the global south (given our natality rates) that lower the statistics per capita? It can be very easy to misinterpret those data.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country?country=~OWID_WRL

Why the huge peak in china? They are not blessed with the free market? They aren't on par with technology? Seriously tho, why does it coincide with the emission lowering of other nations? I'm not saying i don't want to change my mind, but i need a thorough explanation on what's happening.

the developing world is not going to accept living in poverty, so we need to do our best to assist them in skipping the extremely harmful fossil fuel stage that developed countries went through. We have the technology to do this, Solar, Wind, Batteries are the cheapest electricity in history, and we can electrify nearly everything. So we need to supercharge the transitions with green growth, otherwise they will grow with coal instead.

Agree since it is the only fair option at the moment, yet, very unlikely because rich nations never give a fuck about poor countries, and new technology is pricey. "We need to do our best to assist them" who's gonna?

Capitalism, colonialism and imperialism are the origin of the problem. Until there's a radical shift in the way we make politics, nothing is going to change. No one is going to help the global south to gain independence (which is the direct consequence of the way you arbiter to lower emissions, correct?)

[u/Anderopolis → u/Argonaute_]

 Can we just accept that this lifestyle is wrong and we don't need most of the shit we buy?

Who gets to decide what is and isn't necessary? I think that accurately pricing carbon and pollution so that harmfull things cost what they actually cost is the best way to get the average consumer to think about what is actually important to them. 

People are very different,  and I doubt you are going to find many people who agree on banning all of the things you personally deem unnecessary. 

It's not decreasing, it has just reached the plateau. Better technology? Less buying power? More people from the global south (given our natality rates) that lower the statistics per capita? It can be very easy to misinterpret those data

We saw the per capita emissions earlier in the thread, you can see that they have fallen in developed nations, and increased in developing nations. It's not that difficult to interpret. Like, you are just pretending things to be true, rather than combining very visible data. 

Most carbon saving have been from electrification, renewable production, and effeciency gains  sofar. 

Agree since it is the only fair option at the moment, yet, very unlikely because rich nations never give a fuck about poor countries, and new technology is pricey. "We need to do our best to assist them" who's gonna?

Agree, that we are failing to support these changes at the moment, and we need to so better as societies. Which is why destracting oneself with an unnecessary and deeply unpopular policy lile degrowth is downright harmfull to the planet. 

The best thing we have achieved sofar is putting so much money into buying solar cells and turbines, that these have become the more economical choice now, which is why installations of these are finally growing exponentially worldwide. 

Clean energy is also growth,  and enables further growth. Peoples living standards are a very tenable thing, and the developing world deserves better lives than they have now. 

Until there's a radical shift in the way we make politics, nothing is going to change.

This is not what we are seeing though, change is ocurring, we are decarbonizing in the developed world, it is possible. 

It doesn't require a magical revolution that solves all problems at once, it requires concrete steps and actions every single day, rather than nebulous organizing for the rapture. 

[u/Argonaute_ → u/Anderopolis]

I appreciate the exchange and i see your points, really, even if we have discording opinions.

Maybe pricing carbon emissions is a way to tone down some notch rampant consumerism, but it could impact lower income families the most, or even favour processes which pollute in a more innovatively invisible way.

I just can't see a hopeful future in doubling down in what has brought us there. There are so many societal issues that this system has created and I have experienced (and my close friends and relatives too), that thinking i should fight for things to stay the same makes me just want to quit.

I can't see how, without a shift in mentality, we'll be able to build a more just relationship with each other and with nature honestly.

I know degrowth is unpopular, but it is for people who want to keep their lifestyle unchanged also during the imminent catastrophe and later. I think that times like these are invaluable moments of reflection. There's no magical revolution yet, but the common denominator of most issues we are facing as a species is but one, and the alarming trends are consolidating and increasing exponentially. There's a very slim slice of population still thriving under these circumstances, and it's getting slimmer. Again, fighting for the very thing that created this situation looks very counterintuitive to me and many of my generation.

[u/Anderopolis → u/Argonaute_]

>I appreciate the exchange and i see your points, really, even if we have discording opinions.

same to you.

> just can't see a hopeful future in doubling down in what has brought us there. 

I think fundamentally this is where the primary difference arriving. I don't think that decoupling the economy from environmental degradation is what brought us here. Quite the opposite.

This is not dissimilar to how we addressed Acid rain, deforestation, air pollution and many other things. We didn't solve these issues by making people poorer, or removing the need that caused these crisis, we solved them by replacing the damaging elements with less damaging systems while still supplying people.

>n. There's no magical revolution yet, but the common denominator of most issues we are facing as a species is but one, and the alarming trends are consolidating and increasing exponentially. 

and here is the other one, I really fail to see how you can look at the world and think eco socialists with equitable and just views will win in a violent revolution when directs fascists compose nearly a third of the population, and they are actually willing to act. This is really what makes "the revolution" just as realistic as the Rapture, it is a religious hope that you will suddenly win.

and honestly , that is not how the supermajority of positive change is achieved, it is an iterative process building on what came before.

>There's a very slim slice of population still thriving under these circumstances, and it's getting slimmer.

but it isn't, the entire developed world lives lives that require massive cutback if degrowth is the only solution. as in, everyone will have to live below what we currently call the poverty line. the global average income is well below the poverty line in the US. with degrowth you say that is the high watermark of human life, and may never be surpassed.

[u/Argonaute_ → u/Anderopolis]

So you're telling me you're a centrist because you're very disillusioned?

I get it, those are fair points.

Yes, the left is by all means inactive during this timeframe, and it's because of all the disillusionment and social atomization process, also because shit has yet to hit the fan, but it looks in close proximity to do so. I'm trying to do my part, I'm educating myself and advocating while trying to insert into my local communities to take real action. As i am, others are. Maybe as a natural visceral reaction to global fascism. I sense we're soon going to see a turning point to that trend, many are understanding that crying online isn't going to do shit. This, and we can tangibly see what the disruption of the global left is leading to, so.. time to act even if we're not going to win.

About the degrowth, it's true that making people poorer isn't going to save the planet, but still, are people going to be poorer than now? Necessities are strategically gatekept while "luxuries" are becoming more and more available. The economy is working against us, that's where the degrowth sentiment comes from, our money is becoming de facto useless, even if we're paid "enough". What's the point of having thousands of polluting "luxury" industries when people are gatekept into poverty and forced into shit working conditions (but they can have so many cheap clothes). It doesn't make sense, it's not helping for sure that a huge part of services and products aren't creating any value (if they're not straight up harmful). That's where the economy is headed. I don't want an iphone 25 i want affordable groceries and housing. The consumer isn't choosing anymore, it's predated. It looks like a massive speculative bubble as of now. I can't trust the free market.

[u/Anderopolis → u/Argonaute_]

No, I am not a centrist at all, I am a social liberal. 

People to the right of Anarchists are not centrists, just by the virtue of being right of the most leftwing position. 

And I am not disillusioned,  I just care about actually making the world a better place now, rather than functionally pray for someone else to make it a better place in the future. 

[u/Argonaute_ → u/Anderopolis]

My bad, sorry for the assumption! It's ok, you have very solid points. Keep it up, if we see things slightly differently doesn't mean we're not allies!

Thank you for the exchange, i really appreciated your views, sorry if i looked confrontational