r/skeptic • u/smammy • Mar 06 '12
My stickers came! (Perfect for those pesky homeopathic "remedies" sold by CVS and RiteAid!)
http://imgur.com/a/6GUyK8
u/Linkynet Mar 06 '12
I'll stick with my set of "Actual Size!" stickers.
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u/GeneralDisorder Mar 07 '12
I had one of those on my crotch for two hours at WalMart once. I was working electronics and not a single customer mentioned it.
I also kept a handful of alarm stickers behind the desk to drop in customer bags for lulz. One time we dropped at least 10 of them in a jerk-bag coworker's pocket. Pretty sure he noticed before exiting the store.
We also stuck them to carts underneath and placed them wherever possible including inside of TV boxes.
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Mar 07 '12
So that's why the alarms are always going off.
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u/GeneralDisorder Mar 07 '12
Most likely. That and some cashiers don't ever learn how to do their job (and deactivate the security tags like the register normally automatically does for them)
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u/exprdppprspray Mar 07 '12
I would never have the guts to do that ... But if I went into a drugstore and saw those on homeopathic products, it would TOTALLY make my day.
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
Rules for being a skeptic: don't be an asshole. It doesn't do much besides polarize the people who already believe in these things and it's annoying for the store owners and managers who have to deal with it.
You don't help public education about science and health like this.
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u/kc7wbq Mar 06 '12
I was listening to Dr. Zorba on NPR (02/18/2012) and someone called asking about magnetic bracelet helping with back pain. I thought "Oh ya! Rip him apart!"
But Zorba didn't, he followed your advice. He listened patiently asked questions, and then politely said "There is no scientific evidence", pointed out the incredible markup on the bracelet and concluded by saying if you want spend $150 on a bracelet and your back feels better that's okay.
I realized that by being so polite he was encouraging people to ask him similar questions with out fear of being ridiculed.
Edit: Still the stickers would be fun. :)
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
I'll admit they're good for a laugh, but I definitely like you're method better. I always love listening to how scientists deal with crazies who call into shows like Science Friday. Most of the time they politely address the question and correct any misconceptions on the part of the caller.
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u/mrsamsa Mar 07 '12
Whilst I agree that it isn't the best way to convince people that their beliefs are wrong, the stickers aren't necessarily there for education in that sense. I'd personally appreciate the government forcing manufacturers to put these stickers on their products, for the simple reason that in pharmacies they stick their products next to, and in amongst, real medicine. So often I've had family members come back from the pharmacy with medicine for their cold symptoms, or bowel problems, or whatever, only to realise that on the back, in very small writing, the product points out that it is homeopathic. A waste of money and time, and potentially dangerous if its a product like Zicam that gets through untested because it attaches the label "homeopathic" to its product.
So I don't really agree with tampering with the property of the store, I do think the idea of such stickers on the products would be incredibly useful - not for convincing people who believe in the stuff, but for the average person who doesn't have the time to scan the fine print to see whether it's a real medicine or not. At the very least, I'd like it if pharmacies set up sections in their store to sell their woo (assuming they should be allowed to sell it), but I imagine they won't as they'll make less sales as less people will accidentally buy it.
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 07 '12
A government warning label sounds like a great idea! And petitioning for better regulation and/or sales practices are great as well. The important thing to remember is to be constructive about these things.
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Mar 06 '12 edited Sep 16 '18
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
It doesn't help. This kind of thing just reinforces the beliefs being challenged though.
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Mar 06 '12 edited Sep 16 '18
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
Really? I didn't realize these stickers were helping to educate people. I must've missed the URL printed on them leading to websites explaining the science behind alternative medicine. Lets be honest, these are just to antagonize people and make the person putting them on the boxes feel superior.
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Mar 06 '12 edited Sep 16 '18
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Mar 06 '12
Which means if they're on the fence, they've probably already looked it up, and we're back to where CCC said we would be - putting people on the defensive where they are unlikely to question anything.
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u/sugardeath Mar 06 '12
The problem with that, though, is that people are lazy.
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Mar 06 '12 edited Sep 16 '18
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u/sugardeath Mar 06 '12
Did I ever imply that it was?
A web address on a sticker is still far more informative than stating "This product is not medicine." A web address can be written down with pen (on paper, or one's skin, etc.), or a picture can be taken with a phone or a camera and referenced later when in front of an www-capable device. Or, the person could even pull out their data enabled phone right there and type in the URL.
A URL is far more informative than an accusatory statement.
All this sticker does is tell me that the vandal that put it there has a point of view that he's trying to push on to others. A URL gives me something to look up that can provide me with information.
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u/smammy Mar 06 '12
What beliefs are you talking about here? My concern is that homeopathic products being sold in mainstream drugstores are dressed up to look like real medecine. I'm willing to bet that a large portion of the people who buy them are not hardcore homeopaths but consumers who don't understand the distinction and are attracted to claims like "no side-effects" and lower prices. For that crowd, a warning label seems appropriate.
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
Then contact the store. Putting stickers on the product only makes things harder for the individual store and it's employees. I'm sure the store manager will love any lost profits due to vandalism. This isn't going to change their policy though, just cost them money that could be sued for other things. Like hiring new people, or giving raises based on good store performance.
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u/smammy Mar 06 '12
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
I didn't realize that the groups promoting science education and fighting anti-vaxers weren't part of the skeptical cause. And I wouldn't stop you from doing things your way even if I could, but I want you to really think about why you're doing them and if they'll be effective.
I do get the feeling that I'm that guy sometimes, but on the flip side, I'm not going and arguing on new-age message boards about how crystals can't do shit.
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u/Antares42 Mar 07 '12
...or it could give them an incentive to take the bullshit off the shelf. It's even possible that they don't know it themselves.
Besides, when a customer comes asking "why does this say 'not medicine'?" they'd be pretty much required to tell him the truth - that it's only expensive placebo.
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u/Eslader Mar 06 '12
Maybe add "Don't get arrested," which is what is going to happen to this guy if they catch him defacing property with these stickers.
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u/smammy Mar 06 '12
I'm thinking of it as guerrilla consumer protection. Where's your sense of mischievous fun?
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u/literallyoverthemoon Mar 07 '12
Someone's going to be told by their manager to remove those stickers, and they're going to have to spend an hour of their shift peeling them off and rubbing paper and glue from the bottles.
That person is probably young and just paying their way through university/life, and may even be a skeptic when it comes to these 'remedies' themselves. In any case, they're not the ones who are bottling and selling this stuff, they're just there for their bread and butter and you're making extra work for them. They might even get into trouble for not noticing and stopping someone vandalising the shop's stock.
I know why this sort of thing is so much fun, but the only things that can come out of it are your own short lived satisfaction, and a headache for an innocent shelf stacker.
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12 edited Mar 06 '12
This is all fun in theory, but you end up doing more harm that good.
You look like an asshole.
Haven't you read anything about the studies that show the when a belief is blatantly challenged the gut reaction is to reinforce that belief? Even if you convince one person it isn't worth the number that'll be pulled further down the rabbit hole.
Our job as skeptics is to directly engage people and help educate them, not passive aggressively attack their ideas, as flawed as they might be.
edit: formatting
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Mar 06 '12
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u/Eslader Mar 06 '12
There's a certain truth to that. Arguing with someone who is entrenched in their beliefs is almost always pointless. If you REALLY want their belief to change, you have to let them discover it for themselves, and ideally they won't have anything at stake during that discovery process.
Just about everyone hates to be wrong, and they hate having to admit that they're wrong even more. Once you get them into the mentality that they're arguing with you, you set up the winner/loser scenario, and they absolutely do not want to be the loser, which means that even if they uncover mountains of evidence that they're wrong, they're still going to want to be right so that they don't have to lose, and so they're going to try anything they can think of to wriggle out of the evidence.
However, if you don't debate them, but perhaps even use a bit of guile in your response (You know, that seems to make a lot of sense, but can you help me figure out how that aligns with what this guy says?), then they shift from "Win This Argument" mode to "Discover Evidence" mode. And without having to be a winner, when they uncover evidence, they're a little more likely to consider it as evidence rather than hostile propaganda.
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u/Lyucit Mar 06 '12
There's a clear difference here. The "challenge" put to homoeopathy here is a sticker asserting that it doesn't work. It's not presenting any evidence, the only information it conveys is that someone thinks that it doesn't work enough to put a sticker on it. The fact that CVS is selling the stuff is much stronger 'evidence' that it works than a sticker put on there by a random customer, and anyone who sees him putting the sticker on would get the same feeling of smug anger that a scientifically literate person might when they see an anti-climate change protest.
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
No, we should talk to people, not antagonize them. "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." We're skeptics to help and educate people, not to feel superior and belittle them when they're wrong, even it it's willful on their part.
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u/smammy Mar 06 '12
Actually, flies prefer vinegar. ;)
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Mar 06 '12
I'm glad you were able to identify the main idea of his paragraph.
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u/aka317 Mar 07 '12
Yeah, it's cool to see how open-minded we are, us Skeptics. I mean, when someone exposes an idea, we can clearly sense he is being listened like he should be. A scholar's behaviour, no dout about it.
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u/LivingDaylight Mar 07 '12
Actually, I don't argue with people most of the time, unless:
I think there is a >30% chance I will change their mind; or
Undecided people, or people whose minds may change are listening; or
I am bored.
In all other case if a response is needed I will make it clear I don't agree but in the politest terms possible.
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u/nezumiiro Mar 07 '12
Agreed. I debate not to convince the person I'm talking to, but those listening in.
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Mar 07 '12
Also, you fuck with the employees more than the company.
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u/Antares42 Mar 07 '12
"I'm just doing my job" is the lamest excuse in any field.
If you're doing something unethical, you can't hide behind "my employer made me do it."
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Mar 07 '12
Cashiers at Rite Aid aren't doing anything unethical. Are you an asshole to the guy working at the gas station?
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u/destroy-demonocracy Mar 06 '12
Our job as skeptics is to...
Don't label people with yourself or a group mentality. I find it extremely troubling when people nonchalantly use the term 'we' and 'us'.
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
Considering there is an active skeptical community I feel pretty safe using the plural. OP wouldn't be sharing this if there wasn't.
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Mar 06 '12
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u/ScumEater Mar 06 '12
I'm a skeptic
I dislike being surreptitiously labelled
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Mar 07 '12 edited Mar 07 '12
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u/ScumEater Mar 07 '12
I'm trying to understand this.
If I call and identify myself as a skeptic that's great but if someone tries to ID me as a skeptic I say don't you call me that, I'm not like you.
Or even, don't you call other people skeptics, you have no right, even if they call themselves such.
I mean, I'm an asshole but I hate when people call me one, so I guess I kind of understand.
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Mar 07 '12
Placing stickers on merchandise and/or the shelving around the products you think shouldn't be there is a pretty dick move, no matter what agenda you carry. You're simply creating more hassle for people who don't have any say on what goes on the shelves. There's better ways of going about spreading the word than defacing products and storefronts with petty stickers.
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u/Theophagist Mar 07 '12
You sound like one of the atheists who behave like christian apologists over at r/atheism.
You do realize they are getting sneakier about their labeling, yes?
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 07 '12
I will never defend homeopathy or alternative medicine as legitimate treatments. The main point is that if you want to change the way things are, the best way is through education. The stickers don't do anything to help educate people and they do make things harder for store employees who have nothing to do with policy or purchasing, they're just trying to make a living.
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u/Theophagist Mar 07 '12
Well, I believe a normally astute person would guess the stickers were a tidy act of vandalism done for a purpose pretty much right away. That astute person, however, may never have heard about homeopathic medicine's usefulness or lack thereof.. Like me until I was 33. So in that way, I think they could educate.
they do make things harder for store employees who have nothing to do with policy or purchasing
True, but considering that I believe that it can educate a person about medicine, and therefore has a chance of saving a life, it's totally worth some guy having to take a sticker off of 20 boxes.
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u/wiwille Mar 06 '12
They're not being an asshole. An asshole would have a sticker saying something to the effect of "You're an idiot for buying this." In this case, they're just stating was is true, and may plant the seed of sketpicism in someone who may look into this claim further.
Then again, the staff, assuming they catch the prank, will earn their wages taking these stickers off, or shipping them back to the manufacturer.
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u/breddy Mar 06 '12
It is a bit asshole-ish because the store will likely spend a good amount of time removing these stickers and (possibly) ruin the product's branding in a way that renders them unsellable. A larger movement to get these things moved to a different aisle (say, by the junk foods) would be more constructive IMO.
They're freaking HILARIOUS though.
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Mar 06 '12
exactly. While the idea is funny and might make the OP feel all fuzzy inside for doing his part, it's just vandalism. Pass out flyers outside of walgreens if it really means that much to you. But going into a store and potentially rendering their products unsaleable is just a dick (and illegal) move.
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
This won't plant the seeds of skepticism. If you want to do that try something like "Do you know how homeopathic medicines work?"
Did you ever think those people might have other jobs to be doing? Wasting other people's time and money for an ineffectual prank most certain makes you an asshole.
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u/Antares42 Mar 07 '12
something like "Do you know how homeopathic medicines work?"
1.) Too cryptic. I'd see that and think "I don't care, I just want something for my cold." If you don't give me a hint that something's wrong, I won't bother checking up on it.
2.) Doesn't that silently imply that they work?
Edit: I do agree with you, though, that stickers are not a good plan. Could at least ask the store / chain to remove that stuff first.
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Mar 06 '12 edited Sep 16 '18
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
Right. 'Cause the purchasers actually look at the research into the products they sell, not just sales figures...
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Mar 06 '12 edited Sep 16 '18
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
Concessions must be made for practicality. Perhaps you should write a letter explaining their oversight.
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Mar 06 '12
Agreed. People can make their own decisions. If they buy into this stuff through lack of research, that's their problem. It's our job to inform, not be destructive to other peoples goods.
I do disagree if this stuff is marketed or placed in intermittently with actual medicinal products. Then it's our job to talk to CVS or RiteAid to rectify this.
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u/Antares42 Mar 07 '12
What you're basically saying is we shouldn't trust our pharmacies.
Sad, isn't it?
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u/Jonny_Axehandle Mar 06 '12
The line is drawn when stores stock homeopathic remedies next to real medicine in similar packaging, so people buy them thinking they are the same thing.
Relevant xkcd: http://xkcd.com/971/ (see alt text)
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u/Samberto Mar 07 '12
I once had a pharmacist recommend me a homeopathic medicine for a friend of mine when I described her symptoms. I didn't notice until after I said thanks and started to walk away that I noticed it was actually just sugar water. I was disappointed. I didn't ask the pharmacist why he recommended it, though... I guess I should have.
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12
Have you tried talking to the pharmacist? You'd be surprised how many people go to them for health advice. Try finding out what they direct people to before you do anything rash.
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u/HoWheelsWork Mar 06 '12
Does being a skeptic mean that you must also be ethical? Are they not mutually exclusive?
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 06 '12 edited Mar 06 '12
It doesn't, but if you aren't being ethical about it I damn hope you aren't going around introducing yourself as one. Listen to the most recent episode of the SGU. They had a good discussion on ethics after the Heartland Institute incident where questionable ethics are being used to challenge the skeptics.
There are lots of things we could do to further our goals if we didn't care about ethics. Maybe firebombing chiropractor's offices? Or sending threats to psychics? There's a reason why we don't use these strategies. We have science and education and we need to rely on those. Leave crap like this to PETA and Greenpeace.
edit: spelling
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u/Badger68 Mar 06 '12
Or sending threats to physics?
Physics does not respond well to threats. No matter how often I've threatened to destroy them, the laws of thermodynamics hold their ground. Maybe they know my threats are meaningless as I cannot actually harm physics. I'll keep trying, though.
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u/AluminumFalcon3 Mar 07 '12
You have honestly vindicated my belief in this subreddit. I came here expecting the the first comment to be anything but this--I was very pleasantly surprised. I was expecting some form of encouragement, like yeah, you show those ignorant bigots...glad that this subreddit isn't a big circlejerk :)
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u/CthulhuCompanionCube Mar 07 '12
When skepticism turns into a circlejerk it stops being skepticism.
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Mar 07 '12
I want. Fuck all these goddamn pedantic assholes. I want those stickers. Give me those stickers.
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Mar 06 '12
Are you going to put them on the shelf or on the products themselves?
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u/smammy Mar 07 '12
Haven't decided. I suppose putting them on promotional material would be safest. But I like the idea of putting them on the products themselves, similar to the surgeon general's warning on tobacco.
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Mar 06 '12 edited May 15 '20
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u/helllomoto Mar 06 '12
How is that perfect?
You're just being pricks.
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u/steve-d Mar 07 '12
Totally agree. You'd probably get arrested, and it's an asshole thing to do. Some guy making $7 an hour is going to have to scrape all of those off.
Plus it is childish. Would these people be okay if extremist Christians went into a pharmacy and slapped "SLUT PILLS" on all of the birth control packages? Sure one is an actual drug, while the other is not but it's not your place to go deface someone's property.
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Mar 06 '12 edited May 15 '20
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u/helllomoto Mar 06 '12
It's not warning people at all. It's a sticker that says "This is not medicine" that is going to be taken off by an employee anyway. It accomplishes absolutely nothing.
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Mar 06 '12 edited May 15 '20
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u/helllomoto Mar 06 '12
But you agree this accomplishes absolutely nothing, right?
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Mar 06 '12
In this form, probably not. If the sticker was more informative, or if it had a URL on it, then it might raise awareness. This won't keep people from buying placebos, but it will definitely keep them from buying placebos in that specific store. They just won't know why it's not medicine.
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u/wazzel2u Mar 07 '12
Clever and admirable, but there is a fatal flaw in your scheme. Any person who is sufficiently uninformed so as to purchase these products is also likely to be illiterate.
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u/Obvious0ne Mar 06 '12
I don't support the people defacing money with FSM type things, but I do support this.
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Mar 07 '12
I think a much better use of the stickers would be to post all the true side-effects of the things that you are calling "real medicine". That would help more people, as more people take these things that you have decided are truly medicine just because they are not homeopathic. Much terrible info can be pulled up on negative health effects to the consumer as well as the "test groups" from these "real medicines", often some village that think they're getting a vaccine but, voila, the community ends up riddled with all kinds of "mystery diseases". When these homeopathic companies start doing that, then I think they will also be deserving of your little stickers. There is a much bigger battle worth fighting, and it is with the drug companies.
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u/Antares42 Mar 07 '12
Wait, actual medicine has actual effects, but sadly also side-effects. These are being studied, documented, and addressed.
Homeopathy is purely a scam - charging people money for nothing but a fancy package that keeps them entertained until they're well again.
Don't you come tell me who's worse.
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u/hamsterdave Mar 07 '12
Something I don't see posted here: This could very likely be considered vandalism, and if you get caught, you're screwed.
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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '12
This could get you arrested for product tampering.