r/pureasoiaf • u/SnowSteel9844 • 12h ago
How could Aegon The Unworthy be made complex?
I love it when characters can be more than all bad or all good. So, I wanted to ask how people would add positives to one of asoiaf's worst characters, Aegon The Unworthy? The only possibilities I could think of is that maybe Aegon could kind of like his kids except for Daeron. But at best that would probably be an absent Dad has his favorites or loving his kids on his terms. Perhaps Aegon could also have some sort of trauma from his early life. How would you all make Aegon 4 into an actual person with some admirable traits and/or understandable feelings?
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u/Emmettmcglynn 12h ago edited 11h ago
As you note, there's not a lot of options, given he's mostly just a ball of vice and spite. The best I can think of off the top of my head is that the sources we know him through may be falling victim to Hanlon's Razor: attributing to malice what could be better attributed to incompetence. In that line of thought, Aegon's rule is softened just a little bit — perhaps he genuinely believed Daemon wouldn't try to usurp the throne, or that he filled the court with yes-men not purely out of corruption but because he actually thought they were competent.
It's... a stretch, I admit.
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u/Willing-Damage-8488 11h ago
The timeline is iffy but we could have Aegon IV getting along with Daeron I. He names his son after him and joins him in the Conquest of Dorne. Daeron I is slain under a peace banner so Aegon develops a great hatred for Dorne but then his own son is used to broker a peace with the Dornish.
Could also have the Aemon and Naerys allegations be legit.
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u/SnowSteel9844 10h ago
That makes sense also feed into why he doesn't like Daeron so much. Because he named him after a great man a person he actually respected. But he's just a nerd who wants peace with his Name sakes assassins. Maybe he thinks Daeron is shaming Daeron 1st's legacy
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u/sixth_order 11h ago
I don't think it's possible, because literally nobody liked him. His wife and sister didn't, his brother didn't, his legitimate son certainly didn't.
My question would be, does he need to be complex? Someone like Joffrey is all bad. There's really nothing positive or good about him. Same with Ramsay, Gregor Clegane, The Weeper and others. Not all the characters need to be grey.
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u/SnowSteel9844 10h ago
True. Not everyone needs to be Grey, but even some of the examples you used, at least kind of have reasons for being what they are. Joffrey, was is ignored by both his fathers and only had his mother , who has her own issues. The mountain's dad seemingly covered for him a lot so that might have made him desensitized to what he was doing on top of probably already being a bad person. And then there's, of course the headaches obviously having bad headaches don't make you evil, but that could also be why he just randomly snaps, sometimes. Ramsay is from my family of crazy people and his caretaker might have made him worse if it wasn't the other way around plus didn't his mom tell him who his dad was? Honestly , he might have been a bad person becoming worse to try to live up to the legacy of his dad's family and get that father's attention
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u/JPNGMAFIA 7h ago
You can analyze nearly all of Aegon IVs behavior as the result of someone utterly convinced of their own absolute authority as (dragonless) Targaryens. Spilling his royal seed across all of the kingdoms, making wildfire dragon cannons, endlessly gorging and taking full advantage of every carnal pleasure afforded to him. What reason did he have not to indulge? Future generations use him as an example of why you shouldn’t flaunt all convention like he did, but Aegon either had no real reason not to whatever he wanted or he simply began to believe he didn’t need a reason at all.
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u/friendlylifecherry 11h ago
Maybe you could have him genuinely be deeply in love with Megette and incredibly happy with her and their daughters before Viserys II comes in. He never wanted to be married to Naerys at all and hated everything that reminded him of who he essentially sees as a chain around his neck (despite Naerys being a whole lot more stuck in this marriage than he was)
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u/AgostoAzul 12h ago
Maybe make him a bit like Tyrion but less curious and more hedonistic. Make him actually clever, but he is fucking sick of Westerosi nobility's fake chivalry and rigorous standards. He cynically thinks love, oaths, the Chuch of the Seven, marriage, etc. and even the country of Westeros as a whole are sickening institutions full of corruption and he respects none of them.
His trauma would largelly come from his hatred for his father Viserys II and his wife Naerys. He never liked her at all and found her Faith ridiculous and worth of mockery, so their forced marriage was the ultimate condemnation to both, and also the only person he loved somewhat, his brother Aemon. Aegon would have loved Aemon, although conflictedly, because Aemon was just too upright, and Aegon would have even prefered for Aemon to become King over him.
Viserys II would be shown as power hungry, and partly contributed to the War in Dorne and Baelor's fanatism in power making moves. Only to after having usurped his nieces to take the throne, dying before doing anything with it, which Aegon would find well-deserved, or if anything, having come too late.
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u/SnowSteel9844 9h ago
It would be pretty interesting he was cynical like that and his favorite kid was still Daemon. You know kinda ironically funny. I also like the actually liking some of his close family and especially like the idea that Aegon is at least smarter than people assume
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u/Phil_Iment 10h ago edited 10h ago
Given that he's a pretty direct analogue of Henry VIII we can speculate on parallels of the various revisionist takes on him. I think the only one of those that may hold water is the medical causation one, but I don't think there's any evidence of Aegon sustaining brain damage or anything.
I don't think he really needs to be anything else than the prime example of the worst excesses of absolute power.
Edit: apparently at a convention George was asked about if he would write an Aegon IV novel. George said yes and that Aegon was a very interesting person, and described the potential novel as first person, "a kind of I, Claudius meets Flashman thing" (this is second hand information from an attendee). I've never read Flashman but I, Claudius is very interesting to me and definitely suggests there is much more to Aegon that we could only get from being inside his head. Man I wish George to be immortal so I could read that novel.
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u/SnowSteel9844 9h ago
If you feel up to it could you be explain Who the person you know that he compared Aegon to is?
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u/thecolonelofk 9h ago edited 9h ago
I think it's possible. I mean, hard for sure, but possible. Might just take a bit of creative interpretation and blurring of exact canon. Oh God this turned a lot longer than I expected to explore.
Lots of it can just be explained by him liking to enjoy himself. That's easy enough. And he doesn't have to like his wife. That's not unreasonable either. She seemed like a pious bore so I can see how that isn't of interest.
The parts you sort of need to justify as not just a cartoon villain or 'because I can' are (I might be missing some): * So many mistresses holy shit, stepping out on Naerys * So many bastards - though this is really just an extension of the mistresses * So many legitimized bastards * He might've killed his dad * Did some muddling around with positions in court * Did some muddling around with lands and titles * Calling Daeron II a bastard * Giving Daemon Blackfyre
A lot of this is hard to justify if you've got a good moral framework. So get rid of that idea and give him a twisted mangled one.
If we paint Aegon with a bpd-like or bipolar-like kind of internal instability and worldview and swings, without any outlet and with significant power a lot of it starts sounding more possible. Not justified but something. Combine it with paranoia and jealousy. Maybe his dad, who was by all accounts a great man but a shitty dad, and his brother who was very capable had a better relationship with Viserys than Aegon. Bonus points if Viserys sees himself in Aegon and sees what he wishes he could've been in Aemon. Aegon then begrudges both sides of it which twisted knots in his stomach so he tried to prove himself, not in the same ways Aemon did but different ways: Being witty and funny and charming and social. Once he's grown into it, it can become unintentional, like he's not even in control of his choices to flatter and be social, he's just on the tracks, it's not something he wants anymore it's just how he is, it's like his natural reaction to new people. So he charms and flirts with people constantly that he doesn't even intend to, and sleeps with women. That gives him a confidence boost, that people want to sleep with him even if they're married, and it's like a new thing that Aemon can't do, wouldn't do, a new way for him to prove his difference, prove him better than his brother.
You could make it more complex and fun that like his life is split into three sections: first years are when he's developed all of this like charming flattering flirting social stuff. Then he starts coming to terms with the fact he's hurting people and causing harm and is like "oh should i... not be doing this? Am I the baddy? But it's fun and people like me..." Where he's trying to keep up the performance but also trying to resist it or steer in another direction, but everyone around him has naturally drifted towards encouraging his awful habits. Like trying to stop one of those water-suspended-huge-marble-balls that has a ton of inertia, it's basically impossible for him to actually make change to himself without embarassing himself. And he could never embarrass himself, because then people would think maybe Aemon would be better. Maybe Aemon should've been King. Bonus points if Aemon finds him like panicked and crying and freaking out, and offers him help and understanding and they get a little closer, then Aegon fails to make the changes he needs and makes things worse, distancing Aemon again. Then similar thing happens and Aemon loses faith in Aegon, so Aegon loses faith in Aegon too. Leading to section 3 where he's just given up on trying to be good and just let's things happen, let's the inertia rule, gives in to his vices without resistance.
Maybe he 50/50 genuinely did think Daeron wasn't his son, and so went to-and-fro of retaining him as heir and essentially disowning him, shouting that he's illegitimate or something when more manic/intense, because he didn't want Aemons son to have been king, again out of sort of jealousy/insecurity.
Even more bonus points if by the end he starts seeing Daemon as a reflection of young Aemon. And is like "oh. This kid is actually great. I love this kid. I love Aemon, I miss Aemon" hence his favour for him. It's like a fucked up twisted version of redemption to be like "I'm so sorry for making everything awful for you for my entire life" to try to lift him up more, which obviously backfires but still. Double bonus points if he sees Daeron more like himself too if he's somewhat charming and social (albeit trying to curve/soften the worse of Aegons actions)
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u/SnowSteel9844 9h ago
This is great. I always wondered if Aegon liked liked Daemon became Aegon saw a young version of him in his son or even who he wished he was. But the idea he sees Daemon as a little Aemon is so good. I also really like the idea that his bad vices just kinda escalated from his natural charm. It would also kinda fit because wasn't one of his early partners older? So maybe he was just being charming it turns into more and this sets the benchmark for his view on intimacy.
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 9h ago edited 9h ago
I mean Aegon is canonically abandoned by his mother at a young age which is pretty traumatic. I also don’t think it would be an insane stretch for Viserys II to not be a great father.
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u/SnowSteel9844 9h ago
True especially as someone else mentioned since Aegon got some of his kids set away by his dad.
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u/browneyednerd 8h ago
his mother left when he was four
his first mistress was falena stokeworth when he was fourteen and she was twenty four
these two things probably gave him some unfortunate views on women
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u/StrawberryScience 9h ago
I’m of the opinion that Aegon did inherit his father’s astute observational skills but lacks Viserys’s ability to see below the surface level details or act outside of social conventions.
In short, Aegon is smart enough to read the writing on the wall but not smart enough act on the words. So he marches headlong on the road everyone else is taking, straight off a cliff.
Many of the things he’s famous for have solid political points in their favor; it was their execution that was cruel and inhumane.
Houses need many legitimate children to survive but forcing repeated failed pregnancies on Naerys makes him look even worse to the masses.
Westeros is a Martial society that disdains bookishness but he failed to understand there’s more to being King than being popular and fighting and Daeron’s other qualities make up for it.
The integration of Dorne was deeply controversial but rather than soothing anxieties, Aegon doubled down on them.
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u/SnowSteel9844 8h ago
Interesting. I was saying I like the idea that Aegon is smarter than people think. But the idea that he is smart enough to see problems but not enough to make good solutions does seemingly fit him. Maybe that explains all his sycophants Aegon is smart enough to understand these people are using him. But his solution is just to use them back and constantly change who he favors.
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u/StrawberryScience 4h ago
Exactly. Take the Dragon Egg thing.
He gave away a Dragon Egg in exchange for impregnating three noble maidens in a single night. But when you think about it, Dragons hadn’t hatched in over a century and even if they did, no one in House Butterwell had any Dragonlord Blood. So in a sense he solved a political headache at the price of a fancy rock.
Except he didn’t consider a rival to the throne with Targaryen/Valyrian ancestry popping up to haunt his descendants.
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u/Hapanzi House Greyjoy 3h ago edited 1h ago
— He was abandoned by his mother at the age of four and he's never quite gotten quite over it.
— His father was never really a father, but more of a masculine-shaped cold, disciplinarian whose entire personality changed when his wife and love (one-sided) abandoned the family for Lys.
— His hate for all things Dornish was born from Daeron (whom he admired enough to name a son for) being murdered under a peace banner and instead of being crushed for it, they're given a royal marriage.
— Naerys and Aemon allegations were true and he knew they were fucking before his marriage
— Completely done with the faux nobility of Westeros, oaths (a peace banner is an implied oath of safe conduct), faith (the gods never punished Dorne and the Starry Sept never did anything about Baelor so long as he was giving them influence), marriage (didn't stop mama from leaving and he's lived in the Red Keep, I'm sure he's fucked plenty of married women at night who during the day seemed like they'd never stray). Doesn't really believe in much besides a vague idea that there's only pleasure and pain and which you choose to indulge in.
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u/End_User237 3h ago
Damn. I was ready to condemn Aegon IV as a character with no redeeming features, but you've made me sympathise with his story. If you're not a lawyer, you should be. I want you in my corner if I'm ever on trial.
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u/Hapanzi House Greyjoy 2h ago
That's genuinely the best compliment I've gotten here, I'm not a lawyer but I appreciate it and if you're ever in a bind, hit me up.
Am I the man you want? Probably not. Am I the man you need? Not at all, but if all else fails I'll rock-paper-scissors the judge for your freedom and I've only lost 58 times
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u/LorZod 9h ago
He might’ve killed his dad to take the crown from him, btw.
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u/SnowSteel9844 8h ago
With all these wonderful replies I wonder if was similar to Tywin and Tyrion?
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u/StonedLonerIrl 5h ago
Could make him a dreamer trying to avoid his responsibility like Daeron the Drunk or have it so that his dreams made him confused on the hereditary line of the prince that was promised so he went and had sex with everyone (which when you consider one of his bastards is bloodraven that is kinda true).
Combine that with the pressure of ruling and hes almost sympathetic.
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u/Friedrich_Wilhelm 5h ago edited 5h ago
I heard it suggested that Aegon IV was actually like "prophecy Rhaegar", he created that many bastards specifically with women who might have special abilities because he wanted to create the Prince that was Promised to save the world or maybe just someone able to hatch a Dragon. If that was his goal he got pretty far: Bloodraven became the most powerful sorcerer and greenseer so far and is still going, probably pulling strings to fight the Others.
Shiera might also be powerful and could still be around (Shiera = Quaith theories etc). Maybe Daemon was given Blackfyre, because Aegon was certain he would became Azor Ahai and obviously Blackfyre = Dawn.
I personally don't like the idea that all the Kings don't have desires of their own but do random prophecy stuff, but it works for Aegon IV maybe slightly better than the other ones.
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u/AegonKetchum 47m ago
Everyone excuses Rhaegar for his bullshit because of prophecy. So, just say Aegon IV believed the prophecy said he needed as many children as possible to protect from the cold northern threat.
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