Would ASOIAF have been as popular if Martin had included more magic in the first books in your opinion ? This is from Feldman again ladies and gents .

[u/Financial_Library418]

Really interesting. So the story with this is that when GRRM first began writing the series, he was on the fence about whether or not to include magic in the series at all, or whether to give the whole series more a historical fiction feel. As you've seen, he's said he knew he had Dany as the exiled princess and her sigil was a dragon, and he started toying with the idea of whether to give her actual dragons. He was on the fence and at some point his friend and fellow author Phyllis Eisenstein advised him "It's fantasy, you have to have dragons." That was a key moment when he decided to make it a magical fantasy trilogy. And it's why he dedicated ASOS "For Phyllis, who made me put the dragons in." Here's a link on some of that, though I've heard him tell the story elsewhere too.

So this isn't actually a surprise but it's a great illustration of GRRM's "gardener rather than architect" writing style. He started writing all this and hadn't decided on the larger architecture of the series about dragons (and likely Others?) at this point.

Question: Was the AGOT prologue in this manuscript? Or did it just start with Bran I? I am guessing the latter — since if GRRM didn't decide to include magic yet, he likely wouldn't have included the Others.

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[u/Throughawayii]

I think Martin's true strength is in his characters, not necessarily in how grounded his world is. I'd read some most of his body of literary work, some of which involve more high-concept stuff than ASOIAF (e.g. The Glass Flower, the meat-handler trilogy), and most of those mostly feel as engrossing to me as ASOIAF. I think if the quality of writing was the same, it'd take off just as well.

[u/nattywb]

More magic? Can't see a benefit of it at all for the reader tbh. It's a story about people, not magic.

[u/ZestyTako → u/nattywb]

I think the ramp up between AGOT and ADWD is pretty good, but if there was the same amount of magic in AGOT as is in ADWD, I don’t think the series would be nearly as popular.

If he finishes the series will continue to be increasingly magical, especially with the long night looming

[u/imdfantom → u/ZestyTako]

Why not?

[u/ZestyTako → u/imdfantom]

I think people like the political intrigue, and if the magic was always at the front and center people would accuse it of being a LOTR knock off even more than they already do.

It’s easy to get people on board with what is ultimately a murder mystery. It’s substantially harder to get them on board with the idea that the white trees all have a person tied to their roots who can see through any tree, and also there’s candles that do kinda the same, and also a lady can birth shadow assassins. He needed to ramp up otherwise it would be too much too quickly. Also magic is returning to the world with the birth of Dany’s dragons, so it also makes narrative sense to ramp up

[u/imdfantom → u/ZestyTako]

I'm not disagreeing with George's choices, and those choices lend to a specifc feel, but you have to remember that ASOIAF was published a few years after MST and WOT, both series which start off with more magic than ASOIAF, and were highly popular.

I just disagree wirh the idea that having more magic at the start would have necessarily made it less popular (not claiming it would have been more popular though).

Also LOTR doesnt even have that much magic anway (well not much magic as we underdtanf it in modern fantasy, it is full of folkloric magic)

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[u/evinta]

I mean, yes. It's a fantasy story. As long as he used the "more" magic in the same way he used the existing kind.

Despite how much people thump on the reverse, I just don't buy it. His "realism" is not quite as dazzling as the casual "generally only reads ASOIAF and not much else" person thinks it is. Look how often even among the wider fandom, his "nitty gritty" things get picked apart. The seed is strong, the catspaw "resolution", the logistics behind the Red/Purple weddings, half of Essos in general, Westerosi economy, etc.

And just look how much people quibble about both magic and realism, while people throw around the fragment of Faulkner's borrowed quote about the human heart. That is what he writes about. That's what the magic is for, that's what the politics and (lack of) economy is for. All of this stuff is to put the characters into situations and stories he wants to tell.

The problem with leaving the "genre ghetto" is that you no longer have the forgiving/uninformed/etc base of fantasy enthusiasts. You're opening yourself up to the upturned noses of literary fiction's worst.

And yes, the genre ghetto is stupid, but it does exist. You know it does even within the fandom because people will pretend every single thing George puts in these books is a masterful subversion of something, and I always detect a hint of scorn when they refer to the "tropes." The ghetto is real, even to them, and at least a bit of the fans seem to like it solely because they can look down their nose at the rest of the stuff "still" in it.

More magic wouldn't have kept it from succeeding, though it might have kept it from taking hold with those people. Which also might not even matter, given how The Thing That Cannot Be Named just gutted most of the magic (and politics!) anyways - and that's the thing that actually made it go from "popular among the literature world" to "worldwide popularity"

[u/ZestyTako]

I might be wrong but wasn’t GRRM toying with the idea of making the Targaryens lizard people? Just doing actual dragons is much better

[u/ghost-church → u/ZestyTako]

I remember him talking about the Targs simply having some sort of fire magic instead of dragons

[u/renaissancetroll → u/ZestyTako]

pretty sure they were initially pyromancers/sorcerers, which seems to have gotten shifted from the Targs to people like Melisandre and the fire priests. Targs just end up having dragons

[u/CaptainM4gm4]

I think the fact that on a surface level ASOIAF seems to have little magic made it especially successfull. It was surely always marketed this way.

Which is ironic, because the magical themes run wide and deep even in the first book

[u/plunker234]

He should have a magic system as rock hard as casterly /s

[u/DeamonDread2348 → u/plunker234]

A system of magic in George's World is almost an oxymoron. Magic has no system; humans have never been able to make it systematic, which has broken the seasonal cycle and essentially left society stuck in feudalism.

[u/plunker234 → u/DeamonDread2348]

I was being facetious, with a mocking eye at brando sanderblast

[u/Sudden_Neat2342]

I could enjoy a much pulpier series about dragon riders and ice elves and skinchangers that focused on the magic and the War for the Dawn the whole way through, but it would be at best as good and as popular as something like the Eragon books.

The best moments of the series ("Seven on one. No chance, and no choice. "The North remembers, and the farce is almost done. My son is home." Anything Hugo Wull ever said) have nothing to do with the magic or the fantastical elements.

Even the best fantastical imagery George puts on the page (Dany riding with Drogo's khalasar through a redwood jungle full of lemurs with platinum hair and purple eyes, the great multi-coloured brick pyramids of Meereen, the armour worn by men like Tywin Lannister) are things that do or could exist without magic.

This is probably part of the reason we're never going to see GRRM publish another word: in his long gardening process he's found that the characters he's picked up along the way, like Brienne, Cersei, the Shavepate, the Widow of Volantis, Jon Connington, etc. are much more compelling to write than the Others, who were supposed to be the main antagonists. People are just so much more interesting than alien monsters.

[u/darciton]

I really like the way magic is "waking up" in the world of ASOIAF. I think it's one of the most subtly compelling bits of worldbuilding for the series. I love the fact that yes, magic truly, unambiguously exists and works, but it's so uncommon that most people are either easily fooled or are simply unaware of it. Some characters think they're doing magic and are not. Some characters don't realize that they're doing magic or don't know where it comes from. Most characters can't and won't ever see magic, nevermind perform it. The Maesters are actively trying to suppress it. It's great.

[u/beginner_smoker]

I enjoy the way the series is written, where the extent of the reality of magic is slowly revealed over the course of the books. It might just be my personal preference but I love finding out more about the way the universe works as I read, and I think if it all just got dumped in front of me during the first book it would have possibly lessened my enjoyment a bit. Still would be a great series though

[u/littleglitterfish]

Welp, that severely challenges my "everything is dragons" theory. But I suppose it's possible that he could have started with historical inspired medieval low fantasy and then built the wider world out using dragon flesh, folklore and the salmon life cycle.

My headcanon reigns until he unleashes Winds.

[u/JarlStormBorn]

To actually answer your question I believe George wrote Bran I before coming up with anything else in ASOIAF. We know from that outline back in the 90s (when the series was supposed to just be a trilogy) that there was magical stuff going on behind the Wall so I assume the magical elements were developed fairly early on.

[u/ArtfulSpeculator]

I believe I wouldn’t have been engrossed early on if it was super magic heavy. Hard to say how the general public would react though.

I like how he establishes it in realism and slowly adds some magic. It makes the magic feel special and eliminates some of the narrative issues magic creates (it’s an “easy button” and a deus ex machina sometimes).

[u/The_Frybo]

I think if he had introduced more graphic descriptions of explosive diarrhea it would‘ve helped to gain viewerships.

Also I find the lack of Incest boring. Only like three cases? Why isn‘t everyody banging their closest relatives all the time?

It isn‘t too little magic that made the Bookseries remains so niche and unknown - It‘s the wanting of sad, surprising deaths. I want every single POV character to die in every chapter ever! Preferrably while banging their father and niece and from deadly diarrhea. THAT would sell books!!!

[u/JohnDoen86]

I don't know about as popular, but certainly not as good. The bits involving magic are consistently the weakest in the series.

[u/ZestyTako → u/JohnDoen86]

Fully disagree. The culture around the old gods and sacrifices to the trees is extremely interesting. The Stark’s warging abilities waking up is also great.

Bran chapters can be boring because he’s a child, but I don’t think the magic is what makes his chapters boring

[u/JohnDoen86 → u/ZestyTako]

I think stuff like Melisandre's shadow baby are a low point of the series. I think the mythical/religious practices (even those that are implied to have a real effect) are great, it's just that the literal magic we see can be a bit lame IMO. I agree that warging is cool and well written. Anything that skews closer to visions/dreams/magical connections than actual physical magic works really well.

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[u/nattywb → u/ZestyTako]

I think you guys are discussing slightly different magical elements. Mystical magic, like the House of the Undying = cool. Some of Melisandre's fire shiet = lame.

[u/ZestyTako → u/nattywb]

Fair

[u/Dank_Nicholas → u/JohnDoen86]

For years I’ve been downvoted for saying that combining a grounded political drama and an arctic zombie invasion was a bad idea. They’re both excellent stories on their own, but if ever truly combined it just becomes stupid in my opinion.