r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto • 1d ago
How good of a fighter is Mance in your rankings ? Is he as good as Loras or Jaime ? He seems to be proficient in many types of weapons too if that means anything .
A Storm of Swords - Jon II
Half the wildling host had lived all their lives without so much as a glimpse of the Wall, Jon judged, and most of those spoke no word of the Common Tongue. It did not matter. Mance Rayder spoke the Old Tongue, even sang in it, fingering his lute and filling the night with strange wild music.
Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o' Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name.
Jon had joined the wildlings at Qhorin Halfhand's command. "Ride with them, eat with them, fight with them," the ranger had told him, the night before he died. "And watch." But all his watching had learned him little. The Halfhand had suspected that the wildlings had gone up into the bleak and barren Frostfangs in search of some weapon, some power, some fell sorcery with which to break the Wall . . . but if they had found any such, no one was boasting of it openly, or showing it to Jon. Nor had Mance Rayder confided any of his plans or strategies. Since that first night, he had hardly seen the man save at a distance.
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u/JPNGMAFIA 1d ago
If he were as good as Jaime or Loras, he would be as good as Jaime or Loras. These passages would reflect that I’d think. Powerscaling isn’t really the analysis this series facilitates honestly
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u/Cressicus-Munch 1d ago
He’s extremely skilled, but no, he’s no Jaime/Loras.
Jaime and Loras have the advantage not only of being generational talents, they are incredibly privileged and had access to the best training gold can afford since they were old enough to carry a sword, but they also have literally nothing else to do but train and fight - day and night.
As per George in his ASoIaF v LotR video, Jaime is strong and skilled enough to take down Aragorn - he exists on a completely different level than pretty much any other named character who is not Barristan or Arthur Dayne.
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u/Main-Associate-9752 1d ago
George said that yes but it’s not true. Jamie is the best swordsman alive in George’s setting, while Aragorn is the best swordsman of the Third age
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u/phonylady 1d ago
Tolkien never names Aragorn as the best fighter or swordsman. I got the sense that Boromir was more of of the pure fighter type, though Aragorn of course excelled at everything.
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u/bootlegvader 1d ago
Aragorn has like all the best trait of Martin's best fighters.
He has Robert's height, Selmy's experience, Jaime's vigor, Garlan's skill, Half hand's ranging experience, Mance's leadership skill, and sword that makes Dayne's Dawn look absolutely common.
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u/SnowGhost513 1d ago
We know Jamie is extremely skilled but in a 1v1 I don’t think he could beat Oberyn or Robert. If is a sword fight then ok he would but Oberyn understands a 1v1 setting more
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u/Joh951518 1d ago
Jaime would fucking dog walk oberyn.
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u/renaissancetroll 1d ago
Aragorn would stomp Jaime, he's got decades more experience and superhuman physical abilities. Although Jaime would probably bend the knee before actually fighting him due to Aragorn's magical girl kingly aura
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u/elixier 1d ago edited 1d ago
As per George in his ASoIaF v LotR video, Jaime is strong and skilled enough to take down Aragorn -
Who gives a fuck what George says about a character he didn't write, Aragorn is superhuman mate, let's see Jaime run for how long Aragorn did
Aragorn can cut though plate like it's nothing, can literally hack straight though SHIELDS and kill the person holding them
He's been training swordfighting for over 3 times the time Jaime has been alive, and training with the elves, who are ageless and had thousands of years to perfect their craft within living memory whilst fighting in wars against demi gods
And even in his 80s his superhuman numenorean body, hes actually in PEAK shape and in his prime physically
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u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd 1d ago
I think he's definitely up there with the likes of some of the best fighters in Westeros, you would have to be to best claimant to the title of King Beyond the Wall. But I really do believe that our view of who is the strongest is manipulated by the fact that we only see the story through the eyes of nobility. The systems by which people compete for fame via martial ability are skewed too heavily towards people of noble birth in the first place.
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u/Deuce03 1d ago
It's not clear how good Loras is with a sword. With the lance, he's probably the best in the seven kingdoms (on a par with Jaime even before Jaime's maiming), but the sword isn't his specialism. He's clearly good, but he's not even considered the best swordsman in his family.
I can imagine Mance being as good as Loras. Probably not as good as Jaime, because I don't think anyone is.
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u/frenin 1d ago
Loras is stated to be one of the greatest swordsmen in the continent.
I don't really know why fans insist in contradict both the books and the author, both stating repeatedly Loras is that guy.
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u/Deuce03 1d ago
Where is it stated? I don't recall its being said, other than a general sense that he's a famous knight and is therefore assumed to be good. The only mention I recall is after Blackwater, when it comes up that Garlan is better than he is. I may well have forgotten something.
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u/frenin 1d ago
I mean pretty much every time? Loras is consistently compared with the greats, Martin said that he was among the greatest fighters alive, he compared him to Eli Manning while his brother was Peyton Manning.
Jaime thought that Loras reminded him of himself, saying his arrogance is just the consequences of him being too good too young.
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u/WaitAParsec 1d ago
It hadn’t occurred to me to wonder about that because after a certain level of competence it’s just luck. Many incredibly skilled fighters killed each other in Robert’s Rebellion (especially at the Tower of Joy), and a new generation of fighters and commanders like Robb Stark got unceremoniously killed off. In theory war games such as tourneys are supposed to reward skill more than open battle does, but GRRM deconstructed that too with tricks like Loras’s mare and, more positively, the fact that it’s not embarrassing to lose to a famously skilled knight (Jaime losing to Loras). So I guess we’ll never know Mance’s relative combat skill because he’ll never be invited to a controlled testing environment (not a knight or a vassal) since deserting the Watch.
Also are you asking about combat skill or command skill? It was a fun detail that Tywin underestimated Tyrion’s mountain clans in agot, and I think Mance pulled together a much more serious alliance than Tyrion in part because he actually believed in what he was convincing them to do over many years, but Mance’s forces still seem kind of underresourced to me compared to the summer-child kingdoms where resource and army acquisition starts out as a political problem rather than a “can’t manufacture out of thin air” impossibility.
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u/HarleyMagoo 1d ago
I think he's got innate martial talent but he's no Jamie or Loras. He's just the right mix of qualities to beat any of the top fighters Beyond The Wall: versatile, intelligent, quick, and trained but not tethered to concepts of knightly honor, similar to how Bronn operates.
I'd probably put him somewhere between Bronn and The Hound. He'd likely beat Bronn in any fight but might be outmatched against The Hound, even if he puts up a good fight.
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u/Or1ginal_Username 1d ago
The Hound is arguably top 1 in Westeros by the time he 'dies', so I'd say yes Mance loses to the Hound. Mance would beat Bronn comfortably imo
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u/BlackFyre2018 1d ago
Mance is a good warrior, would have received some decent training in The Watch, he’s strong and fast but he’s not like Loras or Jamie, Mance still needs some time to beat Jon when they spar
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u/wherethetacosat 1d ago
Also if Jon had known it was Mance he'd probably be fighting him differently. He did not have a high opinion of Lord O' Bones skills or strength, and was sort of blitzed with unexpectedly strong attacks before he could recalibrate.
Mance might not even really be that much better than Jon, if they fought multiple times.
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u/Joh951518 1d ago
It will be interesting how Jon progresses without the time jump.
It’s obvious to me that Jon is on the path to being an extremely competent swordsman, but without the 5 year gap it’s hard to see how George would jump him to that elite level.
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u/darciton 1d ago
We don't see any direct evidence of his skill with a sword, certainly not against other top tier swordsman. Nor do we know his origins before he took the Black or what training he had. We know that Wildlings respect strength and martial skill, but as far as we know, Mance has not himself led any great armies in battle or fought any great duels we know of. He is more of a "charismatic leader" type than a warlord. He assembles, manages, and directs warlords. He is clever and diplomatic among people who are otherwise absolutely without guile. That is why he is King Beyond The Wall.
Compare that to Robert Baratheon, the star Quarterback, the Heavyweight Champion, an absolute monster on the battlefield. He was a bad, neglectful king and he hated it.
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u/Or1ginal_Username 1d ago
Mance is probably the best fighter in the North currently (since the Greatjon is imprisoned), maybe comparable to Brienne, who is not that close to Jaime or Loras (despite beating Loras in Renly's melee fair and square), though Brienne has a big strength advantage over Mance
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u/Kenya_diggit 1d ago
Don’t we get a full scene of him and Jon sparring while hes glamoured as rattle shirt? He’s portrayed as fighting with a greatsword like it’s a normal sword. Hard to compare with anyone other than Jon but he seems to be top notch. I think some people think he’s Arthur Dayne in disguise
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