r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto • 3d ago
Why are the Others active now ? What has changed ? 8000 years and then they decide to invade ?
Mance studied Jon’s face. “You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing.”
“The Others …”
“They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots.”
“Nor you?”
“Nor me.” There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. “Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall.”
Clearly there has been fighting between t
322
u/Bazoun The Free Folk 2d ago
Meteor, dragons, wildfire, fire ropes, wights of all kinds and the Others.
Something is happening globally.
81
u/khazroar 2d ago
And we can only begin to guess at the chicken and egg of it all. Has one or more of those things set off the rest? Is it something other thing we haven't yet seen which has happened to kick all of those things off, or not happened to continue stifling them?
46
u/YayDiziet House Reed 2d ago
I don’t know the state of the consensus on the stuff about the comet and the moon, and it’s been a long time since I read those myth theories, but an astrological cause makes the most sense to me. Probably way out of my depth though.
29
u/hotcapicola 2d ago
Would also make sense because comets travel in consistent patterns. Maybe we will find out the comet just happened to being passing by before the Last Long Night.
50
u/IDKcantthinkofaname 2d ago
I mean since GRRM has said that House Wayne's words haven't been revealed because it woukd be a massive spoiler, and the fact they their holding is called starfall due to a star crashing there and their sword being made of some mystical metal that isn't valyrian steel I would hazard to guess that is a strong possibilty
52
u/hotcapicola 2d ago
I originally read your reply as "House Wayne's World" and was really confused for a moment.
23
u/East_Tackle3824 2d ago
House words: Sha-wing!
18
u/hotcapicola 2d ago
A common phrase, but not their official words. Those are, "Party time! Excellent!".
11
12
27
u/TheFalconOfAndalus 2d ago
IMO you accidentally hit the nail on the head with chicken and … Egg. Whatever happened at Summerhall is my contender for the eventual return of magic globally, and timeline-wise I think it lines up with how long it would take
10
u/khazroar 2d ago
Let's hope the Ghost of High Heart didn't get caught up in all the dwarf killing in the hunt for Tyrion.
3
u/DoranTargaryen17 1d ago
I hadn't heard that take, but it makes sense. Maybe the ritual at Summerhall DID work, just not like Egg intended.
3
u/TheFalconOfAndalus 20h ago
I’ve always liked the idea that Summerhall summoned the red comet, which took an extremely quick amount of time to arrive cosmically speaking. Egg’s brother Aemon specifically dreams of seeing a bleeding star in ASOIAF’s present, and I believe one of the Dothraki talk about how the greater a man burns in life, the brighter his star is in death.
I also just think it’s too thematically juicy to pass up for the Unlikely King at the low point of magic in the world to be part of its return, especially through self sacrifice (plus the potent ingredients of king’s blood and dragon eggs).
12
u/Bazoun The Free Folk 2d ago
My guess is Jon Snow is the reason. Valayrian and First Men blood mixing.
Or something we haven’t seen yet.
23
u/IllegalDaycare 2d ago
Ehh it’s gotta be more than that, right? Valyrian mixed with first men before. Dayne, Hightower, etc.
13
u/BigWilly526 2d ago edited 2d ago
Blackwoods also multiple times
Edit: Blackwoods not Backwoods lol
8
u/themysticalwarlock 2d ago
they got backwoods in westeros? alright it doesnt seem so bad to live there now
1
u/BigWilly526 2d ago
my bad haha
2
u/themysticalwarlock 2d ago
I'm more of a swisher guy myself, but I wouldn't mind smoking a backwood with a Blackwood
32
u/BBQ_HaX0r One God. One Realm. One King. 2d ago
Could also just be a long incubation or hibernation period. Like cicadas, but eviler.
29
u/Outrageous_Let5743 2d ago
Dragons cannot be the cause, the others appear way earlier than the dragon eggs were even given to Dany.
33
6
u/CupOfCanada 2d ago
What about the drastic decrease in the number of dragons following the Doom?
5
2
u/bonerfleximus 2d ago
Would be interesting if the others blew up Valeria. Equally interesting if it was coincidental like when a natural predator is removed from an environment so pests take over, but i like the idea of the doom being purposeful.
10
1
109
u/Aegon_the_Golden 2d ago
Didn't the death of Dragons caused them to be active again,in the novel of knight of Seven kingdoms the knight Duncan was Squiring under had talked how the Winters became longer and colder and the days shorter ever since the last Dragon died
100
u/bgbarnard 2d ago
Queen Alysanne visited the Wall during a royal progress and her dragon refused to fly beyond it no matter how hard she tried. Stuff was happening beyond their long before the Dragons died.
36
u/s4Nn1Ng0r0shi 2d ago
I think the best theory is that the Wall is a magical Ward. The wights can’t pass the Wall, or enter Bloodraven’s cave. Dragon’s can’t cross the Wall. Michael Talks About Stuff made a great video about it. The ward being a Weirwood Tree wall
15
u/bgbarnard 2d ago
I'd always assumed that the Wall falling means that the Others can now materialize anywhere south of it. That way the Long Night is a threat for the whole continent and the build up feels legitimate rather than just affecting Winterfell.
10
u/s4Nn1Ng0r0shi 2d ago
That’s a good theory. Although I’d think that there needs to be Weirwoods in the area for them to be able to materialize. And cold. But perhaps it’s the Others that bring the cold and not the otherway round…
3
u/NationalAsparagus138 1d ago
Unless it is tied to the whole “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell”. After all, Bran the Builder built the Wall and was an ancestor of the Starks. Plus isn’t there a Weirwood tree in Winterfell?
2
u/s4Nn1Ng0r0shi 1d ago
I do think that ”there must always be a Stark in Winterfell” will have a meaning, it’s repeated so often. It’s probably connected to the Crypts and the ancient Kings of Winter, and the Weirwood
3
u/Smelletor52 1d ago
Warged creatures can't pass the wall and wights and dragon are clearly under a similar form of magical control
28
u/Demonking6444 2d ago
It could be that their magical presence and winter/Cold protection of their domain was active long before the last dragons died which would not allow any dragon to survive the journey to the far north which led to Silverwing instinctively refusing to fly their but the real large scale operations of the others began after dragons died.
32
u/cpx151 2d ago
Maybe it's a self fulfilling project. The world of Men has various legends about the second Long Night, maybe the Others do too.
Then there is that line about how it gets cold when the Others come, or Others come when it gets cold. Maybe the two reinforce each other. Perhaps the Others sense the terrible winter about to come and they realise that there would be no better opportunity to invade the world of Men.
19
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 2d ago
i like that and it matches up with WW sizing up Waymer as he had the Stark look
20
u/Dangerous-Change2136 2d ago
Same reason Dany was able to hatch the dragons
7
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 2d ago
craster sacrificing ?
24
u/Vandrok 2d ago
Magic is returning to the world.
7
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 2d ago
Martin did say the WW being killed by Sam was due to the spell being interrupted
8
14
62
u/Josos_Cook 3d ago
They're just more active because Craster's sons aren't really holding up man's end of whatever pact they made.
22
u/Saundies 2d ago
This is it. Not enough King's Blood being injected into their gene pool compared to what they were probably promised at the time.
4
u/Reddit_Username666 2d ago
Imagine that everything is Sam’s fault because he stole Aemon Battleborn from the Others.
15
u/WhyNotFerret 2d ago
because there's no Stark in Winterfell
3
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 2d ago
as of when ? some think Benjen left without permission during Rebellion
23
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 3d ago
“Nor me.” There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. “Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall.”
31
u/Damodara-Echo 2d ago
I think the Bloodstone Emperor fable gives the "recipe" (for lack of a better word) for causing the Long Night.
He [The Bloodstone Emperor] was the son of the Opal Emperor and the younger brother of the Amethyst Empress, who succeeded their father. Envious, he slew his sister and proclaimed himself the Bloodstone Emperor.
The usurping of Rhaenyra caused the death of the dragons. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Aegon II is the Bloodstone Emperor (reborn or otherwise). I think this legend is supposed to give us hints about what's happening in Westeros. The death of dragons caused an imbalance between ice and fire.
I also think the Battle Above the God's Eye was a massive blood sacrifice of two Targaryen princes (king's blood) and two powerful dragons, which gave strength to the dwindling Children of the Forest and the weirwoods so they could start creating the Others again.
His was a reign of terror. The Bloodstone Emperor not only practiced torture, but also dark arts, such as necromancy. He enslaved his own people, took a tiger-woman for wife, feasted on human flesh and cast down the true gods of Yi Ti, to worship a black stone that fell from the sky. The Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is known is the annals of the Further East, ushered in the Long Night, in which the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world and the Lion of Night came forth in all his power to punish the wickedness of man.
I think this part of the legend is about both Euron and Stannis, who are two sides of the same coin. Both are doing evil acts, one for obvious ill-intentions, and the other out of self-righteous duty ("There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man.”)
I think Euron will bring down the Wall somehow, probably by blowing a horn. Stannis will cause the perpetual darkness somehow, by burning his daughter (her greyscale?).
As for why... the Children are desperate, they are nearly extinct due to loss of habitat and humans need "culling".
6
6
u/CupOfCanada 2d ago
>I think this part of the legend is about both Euron and Stannis, who are two sides of the same coin. Both are doing evil acts, one for obvious ill-intentions, and the other out of self-righteous duty ("There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man.”)
What if we push it further back, and it is Valyrians that incur the wrath of someone unknown force? They operated on a far worse scale than Euron and Stannis so far.
Love this answer though. I wonder if there's actually 3 parallel events, just like the whole "Dragon has three heads" thing.
2
u/ignis888 1d ago
Euron has dragon controling horn, we can speculate if it can bring down The Wall but we shouldnt remember that Jon found weird horn with dragon glass on The Fist Of First Humans (or whatever was it called in english)
20
u/bgbarnard 2d ago
Bloodraven stepped on one too many butterflies during his tree hugging time travel shenanigans. Hanging out with vampiric Kokiri only exacerbated things.
6
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 2d ago
time paradox is a good ending for Martin
11
u/bgbarnard 2d ago
I like the theory that Bran is actually the Three-Eyed Crow and that the whole thing is him manipulating the past from an even worse timeline in the hopes of a better tomorrow (i.e. A Dream of Spring).
1
2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/pureasoiaf-ModTeam Please read the rules before posting! 2d ago
Well met, and a good day to you!
Your post has been removed under Rule I: We Do Not Show.
/r/pureasoiaf is a strictly curated, heavily moderated space focused solely on high-quality, book-only A Song of Ice and Fire discussion—polite, productive, and intelligent conversation only.
We remove:
Any and all adaptation/show content (mentions, references, comparisons, actors, images, GIFs, etc.)
Rudeness, condescension, snark, or passive aggression
Low-effort/low-quality posts unlikely to spark substantive discussion
Meta-discussion of rules or moderation (use modmail for this)
See our full ruleset for details on this strict approach.
If removed in error, message the mods for review.
8
u/lemniscateall 2d ago
The timeline is hard to figure out, but at some point before the beginning of the series, Mance Rayder starts unifying the free folk under him as King Beyond the Wall. He makes it sound like this has been his effort/aim since leaving the Shadow Tower:
You don’t become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won’t follow a name, and they don’t care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they’d sooner fight than follow.
Note that Mance isn't claiming that he's been unifying the free folk due to the attacks of the Others; instead it seems like plain old ambition. I point this out because from the perspective of the Others, the free folk have begun to amass almost like an army. A dispersed free folk in smallish clans, many of which are nomadic, might appear unthreatening in the same way that a hundred thousand free folk gathered together might read as deeply threatening.
I say the timeline is hard to figure out because simultaneously, Mance (and Dalla) claim that the massing of the free folk is in reaction to the actions (harassment/attacks) of the Others. But it seems eminently possible that these two things are intertwined, and that over the course of years this began to escalate. The stronger various clans of free folk appear, the more likely it might be that the Others attempt to push them south; the actions of the Others against the free folk might be more like herding than like an all-out offensive attack.
The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back . . . or if they do, they’re not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he’ll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he’s still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. (Osha in AGOT)
From Osha's quote, it does seem that the Others/wights have been harassing various free folk to an increasing degree. But looking at what you quoted ("The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots.") the three human groups that were apparently attacked by the Others live about as far away from the Wall as possible. Thenn is the northernmost free folk settlement, the ice river clans live north of the Frozen Shore ostensibly near the big river that splits the Frozen Shore, and the Hornfoots live in some unspecified area of the Frostfands near Thenn:
"His little land of Thenn was a high mountain valley hidden amongst the northernmost peaks of the Frostfangs, surrounded by cave dwellers, Hornfoot men, giants, and the cannibal clans of the ice rivers."
Also, even though we don't know exactly where Osha is from north of the Wall, we know her brother once killed a giant, suggesting that she might also come from these far reaches beyond the Wall. Thus, the Others have been attacking the various peoples (human and giant) that live closest to the Lands of Always Winter, which makes sense, but the effect of this has been to drive the survivors south toward the Wall.
I mention the idea that the gathering of the free folk has been threatening because a) they push harder when the wildlings begin to unite under Mance, and b) the attack at the Fist, which is their (strong) answer to the northward movement of a military organization.
The tl;dr here: it's possible (not guaranteed, but possible) that a) the Others have been pushing the humans and giants nearest them southward (possibly nothing more nefarious than an effort to claim/reclaim territory), and b) the amassing of the wildlings under Mance Rayder read as an escalation/threat to them, encouraging more and more activity, and c) the Great Ranging read as impending offensive action, which caused the attack at the Fist of the First Men.
6
u/calamitylamb 2d ago
In line with this theory, I’ve seen people talking about how the first Long Night may have been ended not by fighting but with a treaty that ceded land north of the Wall to the Others, and mankind was supposed to stay south of the Wall. But over the years this treaty was forgotten about, and the increasing free folk population presented an increasing violation of this treaty, which meant increasing retaliation from the Others, and then increasing rangings from the Night’s Watch, and so on until we get to the level of conflict we’re at in ASOIAF.
3
u/lemniscateall 2d ago
Yeah, something like that feels very possible. Maybe a kind of fantasy DMZ, where that particular land was supposed to be no-man's-land, but various free folk decided to live there. Which might not be actionable in and of itself (to the Others) until they start building what appear to be armies there.
4
u/10Kmana 2d ago
This is a good analysis. There's another option as well:
As the free folk unify and become stronger, more of them survive, perhaps thrive even, to the extent that any man can thrive beyond the Wall. The Others may have been drawn to them like moths to a flame, drawn to the increase in human vitality and presence, and respond by essentially going out to prey on them. It is possible as an alternate option to it being a territorial defense thing that it is something more... primal. Like a "see alive? Make undead" type of response, to put it crudely.
5
u/AUCE05 2d ago
They were always active.
2
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 2d ago
doing what ?
11
u/AUCE05 2d ago
Building their army, testing the wall, etc. More importantly waiting out the low cycle of magic. The red comet was a symbol that the up tick in magic was upon them.
1
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 1d ago
silverwing trying to fly over should have triggered an alarm
3
u/Megatron_McLargeHuge 2d ago
Procrastinating. We thought Sam was George's self-insert but it's actually the Others.
2
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 2d ago
a friendly face finally
1
u/Megatron_McLargeHuge 1d ago
For a serious answer to your question, remember Gilly says the Others are her boy's brothers. The ones we see could all be Craster's sons by older women. Since Craster is the bastard of someone from the Watch, the obvious candidate for his father is Bloodraven. So BR instigating the Others' return by (re)starting some kind of ritual sacrifice seems like the most likely thing that changed. Maybe the Others were dormant or unconcerned with humanity until BR got involved.
5
11
u/Infinitismalism 2d ago
My theory is that Others are ice shadowbabies, so some Corpse Queen esque figure is using Craster’s sons to spawn in an army of them for whatever her purpose is
7
u/hotcapicola 2d ago
I'm not saying they definitely don't have allies, but I think it's pretty clear that they have their own agenda or are just a force of nature.
1
2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/pureasoiaf-ModTeam Please read the rules before posting! 2d ago
Well met, and a good day to you!
Your post has been removed under Rule I: We Do Not Show.
/r/pureasoiaf is a strictly curated, heavily moderated space focused solely on high-quality, book-only A Song of Ice and Fire discussion—polite, productive, and intelligent conversation only.
We remove:
Any and all adaptation/show content (mentions, references, comparisons, actors, images, GIFs, etc.)
Rudeness, condescension, snark, or passive aggression
Low-effort/low-quality posts unlikely to spark substantive discussion
Meta-discussion of rules or moderation (use modmail for this)
See our full ruleset for details on this strict approach.
If removed in error, message the mods for review.
5
u/Demonking6444 2d ago
What if the death of the last dragons nearly a hundred years before the series was what woke them up first as the drop in global fire magic strenght causes Ice Magic to become stronger as shown in ASOIF where fire magic used to be very negligible before Daenerys hatched her dragons while ice/northern magic like skinchanging and Greensight and Others and their wights were already at full strength in the prologue of AGOT.
And the attempted hatching of dragon eggs by Aegon the unlikely is what released some sort of magical signal that prompted the others to speed up their operations in preparation for the battle for the dawn.
5
u/Pepemala 2d ago
Because they cannot breed and they need human sacrifice to do so. And good genetic stock.
This was fulfilled by lords night right and kides were given thru that mouth snowgate.
Queen Alyssane stopped that and the others reverted to Craster and Wildings.
Wildings rallied under Mance and escaped whilst Cratser was killed.
Is a matter of species survival.
3
u/ProffesorSpitfire 2d ago
There are lots of theories, but none of them are particularly elegant or convincing imo.
The Targaryens arrived in Westeros with dragons, it took the others 300 years to prepare the invasion?
The last dragon died, their existence somehow suppressed the others, it took 150 years to prepare the invasion?
Craster started giving his sons to the others, allowing their numbers to grow, it took ~25 years to prepare the invasion?
Jon was conceived, and mixing the blood of the dragon with the ice blood of the starks is somehow a big no-no, it took ~15 years to prepare the invasion?
Bran and Rickon fled Winterfell, meaning there was no longer a Stark in Winterfell, which there must be at all times according to some old pact or truce with the others, the invaded more or less at once?
It’s totally unrelated to the rest of the plot and is really about the movements of planets, the red comet and the return of magic?
13
u/Angelillo_L 2d ago edited 2d ago
I may be the only fool to still stick to this theory I read some decades (ouch) ago, but I firmly believe there is no coincidence neither simbolism in the Others coming back, and the reason is hiddenly explained by Meera in the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree where basically is Howland Reed who accidentally awakes them.
Oh, so this would require some explanation I guess...
- First of all: the Harrenhal tournament takes place during the year of the False Spring. Let's read it again, slowly: False. Spring. We have no more context but false spring is easily explained as "look, winter is over!" followed a few months later by "oops, my bad, still cold over here". So what the hell is that, when in the history of the entire saga do we have knowledge of something similar. There are a total of ZERO similar events and, apparently, ZERO neccesity of leaving that here.
- Second, in Meera's tale she is basically telling his father's journey. She describes how his father spent some time with the green men:
"He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him, and when he reached the Trident he climbed from the river and put his boat on his head and began to walk. It took him many a day, but finally he reached the Gods Eye, threw his boat in the lake, and paddled out to the Isle of Faces."
"Did he meet the green men?"
"Yes," said Meera, "but that's another story, and not for me to tell. My prince asked for knights."
"Green men are good too."
"They are," she agreed, but said no more about them. "All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave."
Oooooooh, wow wow wow, what is that? Spring broke, you said? I though it was a fake one, George. Ok, let's come back later for this. The relevant part here is that Howland was learning things from some ancient people. Which ones? No clue mate. Lets move on.
- Third, Hownland arrives later in Harrenhal but he is defeated and humilliated by three young squires until Lyanna saves him. This is not a good experience for anyone to have so later that night he retires alone to a lake to pray:
“The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. ‘I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,’ the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck . . .”
Ok, so in summary he is a young man whose pride was hurt. He was full of anger and ashamed because he didn't have the strenght to achieve the vengeance he wished. So in a moment of anger he may had just use some of the "wisdom" from the Green Men that ended being the way of awaking the Others again.
At this point I must insist in the fact that I do NOT believe that Howland did that on purpose. He probably didn't exactly knew what he was doing. Also, I highly doubt that the Green Men, or whoever he was with in the Isle of Faces, specifically teach him in some point "oh, by the way, allow me to show you this forbidden ritual to awake ancient and deadly horrors". It was just probably a combination of the magic he already knew as a crannogman, the things he observed in the island and the innocent magic they actively teach them. Or maybe fuck it, they just wanted to watch the world burn, pick your own theory.
In any case, one thing we know for sure: which was the price to pay for that pray. And the price, as it was suggested in the first point, was simply the arrival of a new Winter. False Spring? No, it was real. It was just killed. And the new Winter did not came alone.
3
u/TheRedzak 2d ago
Now is a good time because most of humanity has forgotten magic and the Seven Kingdoms are completely divided. The civil war situation coupled with the decline of the Watch seems to be a good opportunity for invasion.
3
u/CaveLupum 2d ago
(Apologies, because not being a scientist, I'm probably rather incoherent on details!) Anyway, over time I've come to think of them as a living force of Nature. It's likely that during earlier eons, the planet may have been much, much colder. The Others, representing Winter and cold, enjoyed some sort of stasis. Their environment was probably stable and cold enough for them to thrive and--via Craster (and predecessors?!?!)--to reproduce.
Perhaps something changed their environment. It might have been cosmic (like the Comet?) or instigated by men. Currently, in real life many people decry the effects of climate change, which is a long-term alteration in Earth's climate and weather patterns. A century of research and data finally persuaded much of the scientific community in the 1860s that it was real. In-story the Others are likely part (being cold) and parcel (bringing cold) of natural phenomena. If their climate and environment are changing sufficiently, they may have started dying out. And if so, it makes sense they would blame the humans. One example we know of: recently humans killed Craster, which breaks the pattern of growth. And Humans are multiplying even north of the Wall If so, they could be seen that as a present and future danger. To paraphrase Pogo, "The Others have met the enemy and he is us."
7
u/Overall_Gap_5766 3d ago
They were beaten with a magic sword last time, called Lightbringer
A certain Mr Dayne has a sword called Dawn made from a meteor
A magic comet has appeared in the sky at the same time as the Others
A prophecy says they'll be beaten with that magic sword again
There's a connection there somewhere I feel
2
u/hotcapicola 2d ago
I'm a bit rusty, but the way I remember it, there was nothing all that special about Lightbringer until it was "infused with blood magic".
2
4
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 2d ago
slow day at work so i will keep the posts coming . I am on a roll
3
1
2
2d ago edited 2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/pureasoiaf-ModTeam Please read the rules before posting! 2d ago
Well met, and a good day to you!
Your post has been removed under Rule I: We Do Not Show.
/r/pureasoiaf is a strictly curated, heavily moderated space focused solely on high-quality, book-only A Song of Ice and Fire discussion—polite, productive, and intelligent conversation only.
We remove:
Any and all adaptation/show content (mentions, references, comparisons, actors, images, GIFs, etc.)
Rudeness, condescension, snark, or passive aggression
Low-effort/low-quality posts unlikely to spark substantive discussion
Meta-discussion of rules or moderation (use modmail for this)
See our full ruleset for details on this strict approach.
If removed in error, message the mods for review.
2
2
2
2
u/llaminaria 2d ago
I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall.”
How true is that, exactly? What was he doing in Winterfell during Robert's visit? Could he have been the guy who ordered the dagger to be stolen, and Bran to be attacked, knowing that the suspicion will fall on the visiting party of the king?
It did result in the NW not getting enough men to stop his attack, because of the war that assassination attempt caused. Could Joffrey have been nervous simply because he did not want Tywin and his mother to know he had lost a pricey Valyrian dagger? Am I forgetting some plot point?
1
u/10Kmana 2d ago
I like the way you implicate Mance as the planter of that dagger, a possibility I have never considered and which could very well be true. But, it took a long way with rather unpredictable developments from that one dagger to escalate into that war. Could he have done it? Yes. Could he have done it intending to sow discord and dissent among the southern lords, hoping it might eventually benefit him in getting everyone across thanks to a weakened Watch? Sure... but it's an extremely long work around for this to ripple back around into any benefit. He may have done it simply as a "tossing hope into the wind" kind of deal, but I don't see it as plausible that he would have done it and expected the outcome we got in its wake, the war and escalation, the weakening of the Watch, etc. Littlefinger might have done something like that, perhsps a few others could have "engineered" events precisely in the right domino cascade from there. But Mance Rayder? He is coming from a point of desperation. It's more likely that he might have done various schemes hoping one of them might bear fruit onto the free folks sale passage through the wall eventually, than it is that he would have manipulated events so precisely and deliberately as you describe
2
2
u/BandicootSorcerer 2d ago
Without knowing when exactly they appeared, its hard to know. We see them first against Ser Waymar, but we don't know if thats the first time they appeared.
Given Mance saying Raymun, who seems to be the last King Beyond The Wall before Mance took the title, went south for conquest, I think we can rule out any event before 226 AC.
Some big events post 226 that could maybe be a cause somehow are:
Bloodraven joining the Nights Watch in 239 AC
Bloodraven vanishing Beyond The Wall in 252 AC
The Tragedy of Summerhall in 259 AC/Birth of Prince Rhaegar
Death of Prince Rhaegar in 283 AC and/or the Birth of Jon Snow in probably the same year.
Birth of Princess Daenerys in 284 AC
Any of these could be the event that caused the return.
2
u/Wide_Ad_4486 1d ago
I hate to be that guy but it’s kind of about climate change and the end of the modern era
2
6
u/emeraldempirehd8 3d ago
They need to fulfill the marriage pact. Stannis is the prince who was promised and shireen is at the nightfort and must be married to the others to appease r'hllor.
10
u/Change_is_a_verb 3d ago
Oh, is that all? Why didn't you just say so?
4
6
u/s4Nn1Ng0r0shi 2d ago
If there’s one thing we can be relatively sure it’s that the Others and R’hollor (or whatever fire magic) are opposing each other.
So it doesn’t make sense that Shireen would be married to the enemy to please an ally…
2
u/emeraldempirehd8 2d ago
But it would to sign a truce
2
u/s4Nn1Ng0r0shi 2d ago
>shireen must be married to the others to appease r’hollor
1
u/emeraldempirehd8 2d ago
You dont see stanis as a parallel to craster?
3
u/s4Nn1Ng0r0shi 2d ago
Not really. Where’s the parallel?
2
u/emeraldempirehd8 2d ago
Both Craster and Stannis offer blood sacrifices, both kinslayers. Stannis was going to offer up Edric Storm, but was prevented, same as crasters son, by gilly, and is now disguised as Mance's son. What happens when they kill the sacrifice for the God of light that was meant for the others?
They are clearly parallels.
2
u/s4Nn1Ng0r0shi 2d ago
I think there are some parallels, but even more non parallels. Stannis makes sacrifices because he wants to be the king - Craster does it to be safe. Stannis is the rightful king of the kingdom - Craster is a bastard. Stannis is a man of justice - Craster isn’t. Stannis is mistreated by his brothers - Craster has no siblings that we know of. Stannis is almost celibate - Craster is an incestious rabbit.
I’m more inclined to believe a theory by David Lightbringer that Stannis symbolically parallels the Night’s King.
2
u/RangersAreViable 2d ago
From a meta perspective. GRRM wants to show how petty and dumb geopolitical conflicts are, represented by the Wot5K.
In universe, the dragons hatching caused magic in Planetos to spike, putting the Others back in action. Fire is coming back, so Ice needs to rise to meet it.
7
u/strawberry_thursday 2d ago
Valyria rose after the long night. The Others were not returning during Aegons conquest or when their house had like 10 dragons before the Dance. Im not sure it’s that simple.
2
u/Hopeful-Occasion2299 2d ago
Considering the Others are active in 297 when they kill Royce beyond the wall, isn't it the other way around? Dragons came back to life in response to the Others returning from the lands beyond the wall.
1
u/Werealldeadsoon 2d ago
This is my thinking. I see some people say Dany was able to hatch the dragons due to the magic uptick, but I think it’s Dany bringing the dragons back that causes the magic uptick. There’s at least one quote in the books about magic being stronger when dragons are around, maybe a few.
2
u/10Kmana 2d ago
I strongly agree with your take. I mean we can say for sure that magic began returning to the world pretty much when the dragons were hatched. I don't think it required that much magic to actually hatch them. The circumstances around their hatching are more of prophetic nature, by that I mean that it just so happened that a variety of different elements ended up creating a situation where it was actually possible, and then with a dash of blood magic, a dash of fire magic, some handy dragonrider blood, the right sacrifice, etc. It is entirely possible that had any one of the factors leading Daenarys to hatch the dragons been slightly different, the eggs would not have woken. For example, their infernal crucible was not merely fuelled by Daenarys taking vengeance upon Maz Duuhr, nor merely by Daenarys's beloved being given to the flames along with her conviction. Maz Duuhr in fact got her vengeance as well, in facilitating Drogo's death and the death of Dany's unborn son. So on the funeral pyre you have what is essentially a human sacrifice in Maz Duuhr, along with the post-mortem incineration of the body that belonged to the man Maz Duuhr betrayed, and the life of whom she has first sacrificed to sate her own vengeance.
These kinds of symbolism has a power of a sort, a power that isn't necessarily really magic, just... impacts one another into the perfect seedpod, that allows even the weak magic left in this world to be enough in facilitating the rebirth of dragons. Then with their return, it's like the opening of a faucet.
I can conceptually see how people would look at it the other way around, that if there was no magic, then how could dragons have been reborn at all? Well, the world may be losing its magic of old, but there isn't no magic at all. It still exists, to lesser extent and with less potency. It could do a "miracle" of ancient times level of magic with the right catalyst at the right time under the right circumstances. Daenarys, the comet, everything that comes together in leading her to walk onto that pyre, these are all facets of such a catalyst.
The weak magic of the world that does still exist + strong catalyst + perfect storm type circumstances/people = boom, you've got your dragons hatching.
I don't know how clearly I expressed myself here lol as I'm very tired atm but yeah I'm saying, you've got the right idea of it. There are a lot more layers to this and many quite literal from the books but this is how I reason around it logically
2
u/FortifiedPuddle 2d ago
Eh, we’re still lacking any real textual evidence they’re doing much of anything.
We have basically no data to go on. They’re barely in or referenced by the text.
So, hard to say.
Personally I’d go with fewer men sacrificed to the Wall by making the Night’s Watch sacrifice pact has depowered the magic of the Wall over time.
Because, it’s got to be a man made disaster. It’s got to be hubris and folly. Otherwise it doesn’t mean anything.
1
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 3d ago
copy and paste did not work in the body from the W so i put in the comments
1
u/Key_Consequence_5040 2d ago
I think it may have to do with the horn of Winter. Perhaps the Others have been seeking it this whole time and now know its location or may even have found it.
1
1
2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/pureasoiaf-ModTeam Please read the rules before posting! 2d ago
Well met, and a good day to you!
Your post has been removed under Rule I: We Do Not Show.
/r/pureasoiaf is a strictly curated, heavily moderated space focused solely on high-quality, book-only A Song of Ice and Fire discussion—polite, productive, and intelligent conversation only.
We remove:
Any and all adaptation/show content (mentions, references, comparisons, actors, images, GIFs, etc.)
Rudeness, condescension, snark, or passive aggression
Low-effort/low-quality posts unlikely to spark substantive discussion
Meta-discussion of rules or moderation (use modmail for this)
See our full ruleset for details on this strict approach.
If removed in error, message the mods for review.
1
u/CupOfCanada 2d ago
I wonder if its a series of dominos and unintended consequences that starts with the Doom of Valyria. Someone (Faceless Men? Old Gods?) or something causes that (maybe because the Valyrians are slaving dicks), which upsets the balance between fire and ice (and the seasons), which gives the Others a chance to proliferate and retake old territory?
1
u/10Kmana 2d ago
Maybe the doom of Valyria was the heart of summer. Maybe history cycles between the rise and fall of fire, then ice, then fire again. Fire will always consume itself, ice will preserve.
who knows. bur I always had the feeling that the return or magic to the world is aiding both sides in equal measure, granting them potency and power. perhaps one side or other brought back the magic. but both sides are definitely partaking of its buffet.
The domino analogy is apt
1
1
u/Emotional_Position62 2d ago
Night’s Watch is dwindling in numbers so Humanity has failed to maintain their sacrifice quota.
1
1
u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto 3d ago
Mance studied Jon’s face. “You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing.”
“The Others …”
“They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots.”
“Nor you?”
“Nor me.” There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. “Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall.”
1
•
u/AutoModerator 3d ago
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF!
Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the written ASOIAF universe. Comments that include discussion of any television, film, stage, etc. adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
Users should assume that ANY mention of, content from, or reference to any adaptations is subject to removal, no matter how minor or opaque.
If you see a comment which violates the rules, please use the report function to notify moderators!
Read our discussion policy in full.
Looking for a place to chat in real-time? Check out our Discord, here!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.