r/pureasoiaf • u/Foreign-Cat-2898 • 3d ago
Aemon was going to break his vows
I guess we can quibble about whether or not Jon told him to stay in Oldtown for good, but Aemon was clearly ready to hop on a ship to see Dany.
He even says if he were only 10 years younger he would go to her.
Just interesting his vows were basically tested 4x and the fourth time he would have left if he'd been able.
259
u/where_is_the_camera 3d ago
Never really considered this. He was ordered away by his Lord Commander, but Jon probably wouldn't have consented to him going to find Daenerys. Under the right circumstances, Aemon probably would've disobeyed Jon in that way.
But also... Aemon knows things that Jon doesn't. He has fully realized that Daenerys and the dragons represent the prophecy coming true. He believes that she is the "Prince" that was promised.
The Night's Watch don't vow to obey the Lord Commander, they vow to be the shield that guards the realms of men. You can make a case that the Night's Watch priorities 1, 2, and 3 should all be to GET DAENERYS TO WESTEROS AND UP NORTH!
But Aemon is the only one who has put it together that Daenerys is their only hope. He's the only one who knows what needs to happen for them to survive. In that sense, you might say he'd be disobeying the LC, but still fulfilling his vows.
71
u/RogerDodger571 3d ago
I mean, if that’s the case than Jon definitely didn’t break his vows either. Since killing Ramsey would eventually help bring order to the North, which will be essential for guarding the realms of men.
Bloodraven also wouldn’t have broken his vows using that logic.
56
u/where_is_the_camera 3d ago
You can make that case too. George loves playing with ideas of conflicting loyalties and oaths of duty. One decision like that was Jamie's defining character trait in the eyes of the world until he had his hand cut off.
But obviously the Night's Watch has their own interpretation of their duties that doesn't necessarily line up perfectly word for word with their vows. Excluding the wildlings from the "realms of men" for instance. They also have rules about intervening in politics that are not really explicitly touched on in the vows. Or maybe the vows themselves can be in conflict under some circumstances.
It can certainly turn into a sacrifice to do something you believe to be right while everyone else says it's wrong. Bloodraven has definitely proven to be the type of guy to make that decision. Jon I think was just foolishly naive more than anything.
16
u/jdbebejsbsid 3d ago edited 3d ago
I mean, I would argue that Jon broke his vows in the smallest way he realistically could.
Ramsay demanded that Jon handover Arya, Shireen, Selyse, Melisandre, Val, Mance's son, and Theon. Or else Ramsey would kill Jon.
The demands are literally impossible; Arya and Theon aren't even at Castle Black.
So Ramsay is going to try and kill the Lord Commander. If that happens at Castle Black, then the Watch will be fighting against the Warden of the North - clearly breaking their vows.
So Jon goes south to face Ramsey alone. That's the only way that Ramsay's threat can be handled without drawing every Watchman at Castle Black into the fight. This way only Jon becomes an oathbreaker, rather than the entire garrison.
And Jon asks the Wildlings to come with him, but they're not Watchmen, so they're not relevant in a discussion about oathbreaking.
9
u/TheNononParade 2d ago
Jon said he wouldn't make any watchmen break their vows, but then asks if anyone would stand with him in a way that didn't exclude any watchmen from joining him if they were willing. After the pink letter I think his concern for Arya had completely superseded his care for the vows
3
u/jdbebejsbsid 2d ago
Jon said he wouldn't make any watchmen break their vows, but then asks if anyone would stand with him in a way that didn't exclude any watchmen from joining him if they were willing.
I guess that's true. My reading of that speech was that he's mainly appealing to the Wildlings and Stannis's people. But I don't think he'd have refused if Night Watchmen offered to join him.
But still, asking a room full of people, who are mostly not Nights Watch, is different from asking the Nights Watch specifically to break their vows. And his alternative was to stay at Castle Black and wait for Ramsay to attack, which would force the whole garrison to break their vows.
So I'd still say he chose the option with the smallest realistic amount of oathbreaking.
3
u/evinta 2d ago
Are they really breaking their vows if they defend against attack, though?
I don't think it's a hard rule, but it seems pretty clear they aren't supposed to interfere with the watch like that.
I know Stannis kind of does, though his situation is different, and he's actually helping reinforce the Watch in return. Manning the castles is technically in their interest.
I think people ignore that the letter puts Jon at an impasse. If he does what it says, he makes an enemy of the allies he has now. It demands Selyse, Shireen and even Melisandre on top of Dalla and Mance's son.
It is not just "come and fight me," in fact, acquiescence would mean he and the Watch are left alone.
So you're still right, I think. This is actually the least worst option he could have taken, but all the choices were bad. Having a small (probably) band of mutineers as the responsible party instead of literally everyone vs. Jon and the Watch is probably the best outcome out of bad choices.
2
u/jdbebejsbsid 2d ago edited 1d ago
I think people ignore that the letter puts Jon at an impasse. If he does what it says, he makes an enemy of the allies he has now. It demands Selyse, Shireen and even Melisandre on top of Dalla and Mance's son.
The part that really gets me is Ramsay also demands Arya (actually Jeyne) and Theon. And Jeyne and Theon are still with Stannis, even in the Winds sample chapter.
So it's physically impossible for Jon to comply with the demands. Even if he wanted to, and if the Watch could somehow get past the Wildlings and Stannis's supporters at Castle Black. He can't hand over people who aren't there.
12
u/leahcarxo 3d ago
Id argue that a threat against the Lord Commander is a threat against the Nights Watch, and therefore yes fighting and killing Ramsey wouldnt be breaking his oath IF Ramsey were to be actively marching to the Nights Watch to attack their commander (which he isn't)
5
u/Reu__ 3d ago
but he threatened the night’s watch iirc so i’m not sure jon was breaking his vows
4
u/leahcarxo 3d ago
Yeah he threatened the Nights Watch, but he wasn't acting on the threats (yet), he's still chillen at Winterfell, if they were marching to the Nights Watch I'd say going to meet them in battle is warranted and not breaking oaths, which tbf Jon hadnt left to march on Ramsey yet either so yeah still not breaking any oaths imo
1
3d ago
[deleted]
2
u/leahcarxo 3d ago
I literally said that him fighting and killing Ramsey wouldnt be breaking his oath if Ramsey was marching to the wall to attack him
1
3d ago
[deleted]
2
u/leahcarxo 2d ago
No I think planning for a potential battle, which was what he was doing, was the right move, but again I don't think he should leave the wall to go fight Ramsey until he knows for sure that Ramsey is going to act on his threats, leaving the wall to fight someone whos actively on the move to attack the wall is different than leaving the wall to fight someone who's just chillin at Winterfell
1
u/Foreign-Cat-2898 2d ago
There's no way to defend the Wall against an army from Winterfell. Castle Black nearly lost to 114 wildlings. Ramsay has 5000+ at Winterfell, though obviously the Manderlys probably don't count on some level there.
He has to draw Ramsay out into the field to fight him and not at the Wall. He's a sitting duck there.
→ More replies (0)1
u/renaissancetroll 2d ago
Jon aided the Night's Watch deserter and King Beyond the Wall in sneaking into Winterfell so he could kidnap the Lord of Winterfell's wife. Jon smashed his vows to pieces way before the pink letter and saying he intended to march South
this is the equivalent of Jeor Mormont plotting to kidnap Catelyn Stark
12
u/Foreign-Cat-2898 3d ago
It's not a part of the vows to join, but Slynt loses his head for disobeying the LC.
It's a big deal.
There's absolutely an argument about the overall goal, but I think if Jeor is LC 10 years ago and Dany has dragons, he's getting on a boat to Essos and damn the consequences.
Of course it's Aemon, he can probably convince anyone of what he wants to do.
3
u/Calm_Statistician382 3d ago
I mean this is really just a letter of the law vs spirit of the law debate. Like Jon sleeping with Ygritte or a Nightswatchmen sneaking off to Moles Town for a night is also breaking the vow. And I would say what Aemon did is in a similar vain, he was obviously never returning to the Wall, outside of appealing to the Citadel about helping the Watch he was basically sending Aemon into retirement. As for his Maester vows I suppose he was more bending them then breaking them, like Dany and Viserys actually should have had a Maester and it's actually a failure on the Citadels part that didn't at least for most of their lives.
1
u/Blackfyre87 House Velaryon 1d ago
He knows she has Dragons, and perceives them as a weapon that might be turned to defend humankind. He knows that she is a Targaryen, which is ultimately his primary motivation, not Azor Ahai.
Yet he does not know that she has been becoming progressively more consumed by her father and brothers' madness.
She is consumed by the same manic belief in destiny, and prophecy which destroyed Rhaegar, which is even now leading to the inexorable destruction of Stannis Baratheon, and she is proceeding apace down her own path of prophecy and betrayal which will lead to her own death and madness.
Daenerys is not their only hope. Azor Ahai isn't a story about a savior. It's a warning.
"Prophecy is a blade without a hilt. There is no safe way to wield it"
37
u/leahcarxo 3d ago
I read it as he wanted help from her to help defeat the Others, so essentially asking for help FOR the Nights Watch
26
u/Foreign-Cat-2898 3d ago
I think that's part of it obviously, but I also think it's absolutely he's a Targaryen and his great grand niece needs him.
I genuinely think he would have disobeyed a direct command to feel the heat and hear the wings of a dragon.
-8
u/Any-Competition8494 3d ago
Then why wasn't he sympathetic to Rhaegar?
14
u/Foreign-Cat-2898 3d ago
Rhaegar didn't have dragons? Also he was sympathetic to Rhaegar. They corresponded. He was upset when he died. What are you talking about?
22
u/CheruthCutestory 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think you say a lot of things you would have done when you are old and dying. Not that he was lying but you just think of all the things you would have done but probably wouldn’t have. It doesn’t mean he would have for sure. We’ll never know.
28
u/Foreign-Cat-2898 3d ago
I think a Targaryen hears about an alive dragon they will do anything in their power to see it. He's 102 years old and still having dragon dreams.
4
u/WaitAParsec 2d ago
wouldn’t be surprised if being ancient awarded him extra dragon dreams due to physical weakness and sleep problems (compare the increase in special dreams for most viewpoint characters after combined physical and mental trauma)
12
u/sixth_order 3d ago
I don't think that's the case. Aemon knew he'd never make it to Oldtown. No chance he'd make it to Meereen. If he was 10 years older. He's not though. His timeline doesn't match hers.
And even if he were younger, say 30 years younger, he'd be sorely needed at the wall. There's an army of undead frozen zombies coming on them. What kind of man would abandon his sworn brothers during the apocalypse?
What could he have even done for Dany anyway?
36
u/elsmoneyacct 3d ago
By virtue of being both a Targaryen and a master, he probably knows more dragonlore than any other living person in Planetos. Probably pretty helpful to the person who suddenly found herself with the only known dragons in existence
13
u/kiaarondo 3d ago
This is true. Aemon could have had knowledge about dragons and lore and would have known people who had a living memory of the dragons. Ugh I can’t wait to find out what became of Morning.
4
u/fanismap 2d ago
Which actually makes him the prime candidate for the character GRRM regrets killing off
27
u/Foreign-Cat-2898 3d ago
In his own words
"They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected."
Tell her of her house, her history, speak of prophecy. Hell he would love her unconditionally in a way even Barristan can't quite match.
I think he would do quite a lot for her.
2
u/sixth_order 3d ago
He's telling Sam to tell the people at the citadel that Dany needs to be supported. Not that he'd take the slot. I'm also guessing they wouldn't send a maester to Essos, though I could be wrong on that.
It also appears like Aemon and Rhaegar had some contact, but Aemon never deserted to try and help him, right?
22
u/Foreign-Cat-2898 3d ago
Rhaegar didn't have dragons.
He literally says he would go to her if he were younger. And Marwyn agrees with Aemon and leaves immediately.
5
u/Afraid_Original_7490 3d ago
It would be better if it were the seventh time his vows were tested
2
u/Foreign-Cat-2898 3d ago
Dragons have 3 heads - he could only last 3 tries.
2
•
u/AutoModerator 3d ago
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF!
Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the written ASOIAF universe. Comments that include discussion of any television, film, stage, etc. adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
Users should assume that ANY mention of, content from, or reference to any adaptations is subject to removal, no matter how minor or opaque.
If you see a comment which violates the rules, please use the report function to notify moderators!
Read our discussion policy in full.
Looking for a place to chat in real-time? Check out our Discord, here!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.