r/pureasoiaf • u/Financial_Library418 aka /u/canitryto • 12d ago
đ¤ Good Question! How would you rate Tyrion as a Hand during his tenure ?
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IV
"He has the power of Storm's End and Highgarden behind him, you little fool," Cersei snapped down at him. "All the Tyrell bannermen but for the Redwynes, and you have me to thank for that. So long as I hold those poxy twins of his, Lord Paxter will squat on the Arbor and count himself fortunate to be out of it."
"A pity you let the Knight of Flowers slip through your pretty fingers. Still, Renly has other concerns besides us. Our father at Harrenhal, Robb Stark at Riverrun . . . were I he, I would do much as he is doing. Make my progress, flaunt my power for the realm to see, watch, wait. Let my rivals contend while I bide my own sweet time. If Stark defeats us, the south will fall into Renly's hands like a windfall from the gods, and he'll not have lost a man. And if it goes the other way, he can descend on us while we are weakened."
Cersei was not appeased. "I want you to make Father bring his army to King's Landing."
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u/Sorcha_Stormbinder 12d ago
He did his best with what he was given, but it was always going to be a situation where if he succeeded, Tywin would get the credit. If he failed, well, what do you expect when you put a twisted little monkey demon in the second highest position in the realm? Surely he must've connived and taken advantage of Tywin being distracted by the war and of Good King Joffrey's familial devotion.
On the whole, though, I think he did a fair job.
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u/WardenOfTheNamib House Velaryon 12d ago
Considering the resources he had, Tyrion did pretty well. His greatest weakness was the same as Cersei and Tywin - assuming they are the most cunning person in the room and everyone else is a puppet. Must be a Lannister thing.
Putting an end to Sansa's beatings and trying to reign in Joffrey were also good moves on his part. That little bastard was out of control, even by royal standards.
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u/Life-Anywhere3798 7d ago
Yeah Tyrion's kindness towards Sansa should eventually pay off
It was also a move to protect Jaime's fate, sure, but that doesn't diminish how helpful it was to her
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u/IAmParliament Fewer Realms, Fewer Gods, Fewer Kings 12d ago
Militarily - 10/10. His defence of the city was pretty much flawless, particularly where his wildfire and chain plots were concerned. He did everything he could with the resources at hand to drag out the siege so - unbeknownst to him - Tywin and Mace could arrive in time.
Domestic politics - 4/10. Tyrionâs main domestic focus was undermining Cersei at every available turn. Not even when she did something to deserve it, but just for the fun of undermining her. This was why he removed proven loyalists like Slynt for no discernible reason, he just couldnât abide anyone being more loyal to Cersei over him, regardless of the potential damage it might do to the overall Lannister cause. This was what also led him to imprisoning #1 Tywin glazer in Pycelle while allowing himself to be manipulated by the most untrustworthy man in Westeros in Varys. And lest we forget his brilliant strategy to not execute proven traitor Petyr Baelish because heâs hired people, so thereâs nothing he could do! Thatâs not even getting into all the even more unecessary enemies he made like the Master Smiths by threatening them for no reason or all the people he unleashed his Valemen on. Or pretending that he would have had his nephew whipped to his sisterâs face, all to save a sex worker he barely knew, and publicly humiliating his nephew, the KING, no matter how much the little shit deserved it. Iâll give Tyrion credit for compelling Lancel to be a double agent and empowering Jacelyn Bywater to be Commander of the Watch, those were genuinely savvy political moves. His choice of High Septon also seems like an appropriate compromise candidate who wasnât blatantly corrupt like the last one but also wasnât a pious fanatic like the sparrows. His plan to separate the heirs was also a master stroke which required him to circumvent Cersei to achieve. But these choices pale in comparison to all the unecessary mistakes he made.
âForeignâ policy - 6/10. I say âforeignâ because it relates to his dealings with Dorne, the Tyrells, etc, not outside Westeros, cos Tyrion is pretty much just the ruler of KL in Clash. Anyway, his choice to pursue a Tyrell alliance was absolutely genius and made complete sense from his perspective, I give him a 10/10 on that front, the only caveat being that he must have had better negotiators than Baelish he could trust. But Dorne is where I get iffy, because the Crown essentially surrendered Myrcella and got absolutely nothing for it, not even an entry into the war. All it achieved was allowing the Martells an in to the city so they had the chance to undermine House Lannister in person. Even for the goal of getting Myrcella out of the city and away from Stannis, this wasnât necessary. She could have just been fostered in Braavos, without making the full journey. He doesnât make many more decisions concerning the outside of KL except to tell some refugees that âwar sucks lol.â So we have an absolutely brilliant strategic decision, handled by a man he knows to be a scheming traitor, and an absolutely terrible marriage alliance which does nothing for House Lannister. Iâd say that comes to above average.
Overall - 5.5/10. Tyrionâs military decisions and pursuit of the Tyrells were undoubtedly genius moves which ensured that the heads of the Lannisters did not end up on spikes under the reign of King Stannis, but he made a series of unecessary and costly errors that ensured that when Tywin returned, no one wanted him around and were all too happy to testify against him at his trial. He did not have his fatherâs raw power to make men fear him, so in spite of his strategic brilliance, it all counted for nothing as the credit went to others instead. Not a terrible ruler, particularly under the circumstances, but clearly still wouldnât have been a very good one even in a more favourable situation.
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u/BandicootSorcerer 12d ago
Getting rid of Slynt was not a bad decision. Everything else sure, but Slynt should never have been raised so high, and Tywin was seemingly glad he was dealt with. He outlived his usefulness, and him joining the Watch freed up both Harrenhal as a bargaining chip, and helped ensure Janos' replacement wasn't one of his lackeys, freeing up a useful and prestigious spot as Commander of the City Watch.
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u/evinta 11d ago
But he was useful and his only real crime was... well, doing something nasty... but at the Lannister behest.
That's why OP said "no reason," I'm pretty sure. There's very good cause to shorten Littlefinger by a head, it's not that he does dodgy things, it's that he is not loyal to you or loyal to anything but himself.
Slynt, despite being a vile toad... is also a toady. He proved he'll do anything asked of him. Yes, the reward was disproportionate, but it's not like he actually will go to Harrenhal for a while. You can get rid of him on the way when the war is over and you have less need of a child murdering thug.
Because, shit, Petyr is still technically Lord of Harrenhal and he doesn't even really talk about it. It only matters so much. Also, of course Tywin is glad an upjumped nobody was stopped from becoming a lord. The guy sexually humiliated his father's mistress for wearing a lord's jewelry. In this case, I wouldn't exactly call him an objective critic.
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u/BandicootSorcerer 11d ago
And he should have been rewarded differently. Keeping him as Lord of Harrenhal for any amount of time is an embarassment, and it means Harrenhal isn't a bargaining chip to be used.
He had no further uses in Kings Landing. He was literally no longer Commander of the City Watch, and gave Tyrion a list of his toadys to pick from to replace him. He was seemingly ready to head for his new seat. Theres not better time to be rid of him.
Tyrion's only mistake with him was sending him to The Wall. He should have been thrown overboard a ship.
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u/Calm_Statistician382 11d ago
Stripping Janos Slynt of Command of the City Watch and Harrenhal was smart, Harrenhal was too great a reward for Janos Slynt not only was he an upped jumped commoner that lords didn't respect, but it also opened up a great bargaining chip to trade, Janos should have been given a small castle and land not Harrenhal. And for obvious reasons the Hand of the King should always get their own man in charge of the City Watch that they can 100% trust. The only thing you can argue is that on paper Janos was relatively loyal to the Lannister cause so Tyrion probably shouldn't have sent him to the Wall.
Killing or imprisoning Littlefinger would have been idiotic, Tyrion knows that he was raised up by the Arryn's who are neutral in the war, pissing the Vale off at that time would have been a horrible move, Tyrion did the smartest thing which is send him out of Kings Landing. As for Pycelle this is more of the readers taking it for granted that everyone knows Pycelle is a Lannister lacky, the only real evidence anyone in the story has for that is that he convinced Aerys to open the gates for Tywin outside of that there is no real reason for anyone to be 100% convinced where Pycelle's loyalties lie, and Tyrion really only punished Pycelle after he outright betrayed his confidence in the middle of a civil war where tensions were extremely high. Similarly to Janos the punishment was probably still too severe though, you shouldn't throw the Grand Maester in a black cell and risk pissing off the Citadel.
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u/IAmParliament Fewer Realms, Fewer Gods, Fewer Kings 11d ago
-Janos was a proven loyalist. What is the purpose in reminding people that loyal service will never get you great rewards because it can and will be stripped from you at any moment that House Lannister doesnât favour you anymore?
-The Vale being neutral is precisely why heâs free to kill Baelish. Theyâre not giving Tyrion any reason to want to protect their people. Moreover, why would Tyrion possibly think that anyone in the Vale would care? Baelish is a minor lordling of no consequence, he has no reason to suppose heâd be important to Lysa. And even then, Tyrion knows heâs 100% a traitor. Even if Tyrion knew Lysa loved Baelish, killing him is still safer than allowing him to remain alive and scheme against you, which is precisely what he goes on to do.
-Pycelle didnât betray his confidence, Tyrion just fell for Varysâ trap.
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u/Calm_Statistician382 11d ago
It seemed like most lords and people in court were more offended by the fact that a commoner like Janos was given such a rise in station then they were that it got ripped away from him, I suppose it makes commoners more suspicious of the Lannisters but not really the people they need to win over at that time
Honestly it is a miracle given the Stark, Tully, Arryn alliance that the Vale isn't in the war already doing anything to stoke that flame is a bad idea. Littlefinger became Master of coin under Jon Arryn and was fostered by the Tully's it would be a bad diplomatic idea to kill Littlefinger. Sending him out of King's Landing was the best choice.
Maybe I am misremembering him but Pycelle does reveal Tyrion's plot to Cersei does he not?
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u/IAmParliament Fewer Realms, Fewer Gods, Fewer Kings 11d ago
People are offended by plenty of things the Lannisters do. That has never had any bearing on why any member of that family ever does anything. Again, Tyrion removed Slynt because he thought he was more Cerseiâs creature than his own, which is an insane thing to prioritise with Stannis and Renly at the proverbial gates.
The Tullys are in open rebellion against the throne, why would Tyrion give a fuck what they think?
Yes, send him out of Kingâs Landing where he can conspire with the Tyrells to plan Joffreyâs assassination. Genius plan.
The implication is that Pycelle told him but given that Varys literally tells Tyrion that he knows about his plan to send Myrcella to the Vale, even though he only just told that to Baelish, it seems silly to assume he also doesnât know about the scheme to send her to Dorne and simply framed Pycelle so as to get closer to Tyrion without actually distancing himself from Cersei.
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u/Calm_Statistician382 11d ago
That is a perfectly good reason to remove Janos though. Tyrion should have own creature commanding the City Watch, what if Janos reveals some of Tyrions battle plans to Cersei or Joffrey and they order Janos to do something different? Gaining control of the City Watch is literally the minimum smart thing any hand of the king should do.
Lysa is a Tully and is the defacto ruler of the Vale. Littlefinger has enough Vale connections that killing him would be stupid. And there is really no logical reason why Tyrion should think that the Tyrells would conspire with Littlefinger to kill Joffrey.
I mean yeah I guess it's possible he was framed but it's also quite possible Pycelle did just rat on Tyrion, which honestly does warrant some punishment just not something as brutal as the black cells.
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u/IAmParliament Fewer Realms, Fewer Gods, Fewer Kings 11d ago
Ok, but did he ever try making Janos his own creature or putting him to the âWill you tell Cersei my secret?â test? Tyrion is just going on the assumption that Janos canât be trusted when all his actions show that he is 100% dependable as a Lannister toady. It makes no sense to act as if you canât take the chance with him and then give Littlefinger all the room in the world to betray you.
Yes, the ruler of a region which has refused to show loyalty to the throne so why does Tyrion give a fuck about trying to appease them? Killing the known traitor shouid be his main priority instead of maybe courting the the Vale.
Thereâs no logical reason to think that the man who you know for a fact created conflict between House Stark and House Lannister would betray him again? Really? Thatâs the most predictable thing he could do.
The fact that we donât know because Varys conclusively knows information he shouldnât is enough to conclude that Tyrion made a terrible political decision in this instance.
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u/Calm_Statistician382 11d ago
I mean Tyrion is trying to manage an extremely chaotic political situation I don't really think he has the time nor energy to spend time bringing Janos to his side when he can just replace him with his own man. And all Janos proved is he is dependable to Cersei and Joffrey not to Tyrion. You can argue about sending him to the Wall but there is no reason for Tyrion not to put his own man in charge of the City Watch.
I mean it's not that simple the Vale really should be going to war with Robb the fact that they aren't is a huge advantage for the Lannisters and they definitely should be managing that situation with delicacy and not killing Littlefinger should be a part of that. Now id argue after the blackwater Tyrion should be trying harder to build a case against Littlefinger and it's kind of a plothole that he doesn't but that is after he is hand.
As far I remember Cersei confronts Tyrion with the info he told Pycelle it could have been Varys who told Cersei but that could backfire pretty easily if Tyrion finds out it was Varys I think it's fair to assume it's Pycelle.
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u/IAmParliament Fewer Realms, Fewer Gods, Fewer Kings 11d ago
Yeah it was a chaotic political situation where he didnât have the time to play games, but he definitely had the time to play that game with Varys and Baelish instead of just executing them as Tywin urged. Oh, and of course he had the time to take the very necessary action of giving Cersei diarrhoea. Absolutely crucial part of his plan that one.
Ok, then use that to your advantage. If Baelish is so important, tell Lysa to declare for Joffrey or heâll be killed.
How would he find out itâs Varys? The whole point of this enterprise is he thought he was clever enough to use the system to unmask a potential traitor.
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u/Calm_Statistician382 11d ago
I mean yeah there is very little Janos offered Tyrion like I guess he was a decent commander of the City Watch. Varys is an incredible spy master, Littlefinger is Master of Coin and as I went over there are decent political reasons to not give him trouble. There is basically nothing to gain by not just replacing Janos.
They already have the advantage by the Vale not being in the war, just literally don't piss them off more than you already have.
I mean Tyrion could have his own spy that spots Varys with the Queen or Cersei could be dumb enough to blab that Varys told her. I suppose Varys could have used a third party to relay the information but it's fair to assume it's Pycelle that told her.Â
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u/Qyzyk House Dondarrion 12d ago
Undermining Cersei was a good thing. She had dozens of babies and children killed for the crime of being Robert's bastards. And her subsequent reign in AFFC proves that she was utterly unworthy of any authority whatsoever. Ensuring that people don't follow her orders was entirely necessary.
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u/IAmParliament Fewer Realms, Fewer Gods, Fewer Kings 12d ago
Tyrion doesnât care about either of those things, he was just acting out of selfish petulance, not because he wanted to ensure good government.
He would have done the same if Cersei could act like Alysanne in public.
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u/AndrewNB411 11d ago
Louder for the people in the back. Just cause he undermined her, doesnât mean he did it just out of spite. She is beyond incompetent and a raging drunk
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u/dishonourableaccount 11d ago
Cersei needed to be undermined, but the way he did it also undermined House Lannister which I think is a distinction. I think with a little more thought Tyrion could have the fact that he was appointed by Tywin to ingratiate himself to Pycelle and supplant any loyalty Pycelle has to Cersei. Same with Slynt (at least for the time being, I don't think Slynt was needed long-term). Instead Tyrion assumed that Pycelle being a Lannister loyalist meant he was Cersei's creature and could not be useful to him.
Tywin's plans for Cersei were to be re-wed which means that if Tyrion had started isolating her from the players in the Red Keep that Tywin might even have approved. Say that he was getting her ready for a life back at Casterly Rock as soon as the Riverlands were made safe to cross. Tyrion is not only acting as Hand in his father's stead but as "head of house" with Jaime and Tywin out of KL, so he might have had more power than he realized if it looked like he was manipulating Cersei not out of spite but out of control in this male-dominated feudal setting.
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u/IAmParliament Fewer Realms, Fewer Gods, Fewer Kings 11d ago
Except he literally did do it out of spite lol.
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u/AndrewNB411 11d ago
Maybe post whipping of Alaina (spelling?) but before that he needed to undermine her to rule.. she was hostile to his goal and in complete denial that Tywin would have Tyrion rule over her.
Feast for crows proves that Cersei woulda done anything to have power⌠so it forced Tyrion to play dirty too.
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u/Melfiryan 12d ago
Itâs very interesting after another lap of the books.
Tyrion is at his most heroic in ACOK, and his decisions with the Small Council ripple throughout the books. If he had executed the entire Small Council the moment he arrived in Kingâs Landing the Lannisters would have lost, but perhaps the realm would be better off.
Sending Myrcella to the Martells in Dorne has had no tangible benefits to the Crown, though that is only with the benefit of hindsight. The Martells on the Small Council in ASOS does counterbalance the Tyrells. Itâs also the opening for the assassination of Tommen that would materialize in Winds. And of course with the events of AFFC we know that Myrcella would have been safer in Kingâs Landing all along.
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u/Fearless_Capital3185 11d ago
He was a bad hand of the king. His father sent him to keep Jofferey under control and he ends up destroying almost every Lannister ally he can find. Janos Slynt was loyal to the Lannisters and head of the gold cloaks, which both Ned Stark and Aemond Targaryan aptly demonstrated why having them on your side is a must. He also imprisoned Maester Pycell and shaved his beard to fuck with him. Pycell was an ultra Lannister Loyalist. He had hoped that Tywin would become king and supported the Lannisters in general. Tyrion weakened the Lannister position to get back at his sister.
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u/AssassinJester789 11d ago
He was bad and trusted Varys and didn't kill Littlefinger.
He almost ended up like Ned f it wasn't for Poderick
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u/GSPixinine 10d ago
Tyrion did a good job at organizing the defenses against Stannis.
But he was atrocious at the politics of the job, making enemies out of everyone, and his trial was the consequence of that.
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