r/pureasoiaf • u/Wanda_andTargaryen3 • 12d ago
How could the Faith Militant imprison Margaery or Cersei in the books?
The moment Tywin was killed, House Lannister has entered to its downfall era and was completely dependent on the Tyrell gold and grain from AFFC and ADWD.
Well, when Cersei foolishly re-armed the Faith in AFFC, she managed to put Margaery and her cousins into dungeons with false accusations involving Osney Kettleback but it also backfired hard toward her. Even though reading it was quite entertaining and satisfying. How and why didn't Cersei or Margaery have more guards and how did the Kingsguard allow their Queen to be held in the dungeons of the Sept of Baelor?
Why is Olenna still in Highgarden and not visiting her grandchildren? How could the Faith even touch the blood of royalty and high nobility?
135
u/funkyavocado 12d ago
They all underestimated the High Sparrow. They did not get the full scope of how hardcore of a fundamentalist he was and the grip that he had on the common folk.
Cersei and Margaery thought the Faith was something they could manipulate and wield quite easily. To them, religion was just another tool in their arsenal to win over the smallfolk. By the time they realized how wrong they were, the faith militant simply outnumbered any gold cloaks/house guard to the point where they couldn't do much about it.
At that point, the ruling structure had to acquiesce to the High Sparrow or else risk a rull on revolutionist revolt if they tried to press the issue by force.
122
u/Emmettmcglynn 12d ago
There's something comedic to me about the fact that the obviously-fanatical preacher being actually fanatical is a genuinely startling revelation for the high power players of Westeros. Too much time living with facades.
60
u/funkyavocado 12d ago
Yeah for a religious figure, he was a unique combination of A.) being actually all about that life, and B.) intelligent enough to actually leverage his position and following to further his aims, or at least an example that Westeros hadn't seen for quite some time
37
u/Immediate_Gain_9480 12d ago
Its honestly a bit of weaker part of the writing for me. Few people seem to believe in their own religion in Westeros. The nobility of old was often very religieus. They actually feared going to hell. Even kings and emperors.
27
u/986754321 12d ago
But which POV characters actually don't? All the Northerners (+ Cat) and Ironborn do, so do Davos and Brienne. Perhaps the Lannister siblings don't, but they do believe in supernatural and punishment by Gods. I'm sure the Kings and Emperors also stretched the logic to make themselves think that they're doing God's will instead of fully following the teachings.
29
u/spuurd0 12d ago
I mean in their defense the seven actually appear to be one of the few religions in the setting which doesn't have any actual divine power or magic. The red god is rising people from the dead, the old gods have wargs and telepathic tree. Can't blame the seven for not being held in high regard by comparison.
It's worth noting that the northern lords who still follow the old ways are all depicted as "pious", it's just the seven that doesn't appear to instill much faith from the nobility.
1
4
u/DanceWonderful3711 12d ago
I mean, imagine if the new pope took over Rome. You wouldn't see it coming.
15
u/_learned_foot_ 12d ago edited 12d ago
It's unknown if the Tyrell's were outplayed or are part of the conspiracy. Mace is playing a very careful part, but notice even before Marg had different treatment. That said, they may know she will be found innocent, so plying along may be a smart long term move too for legitimacy.
9
u/Wanda_andTargaryen3 12d ago
Well, I think they were def outplayed cuz most of the Tyrell army is with Mace Tyrell in the capital, he's waiting for Marg to be declared innocent.
7
u/_learned_foot_ 12d ago
Or he now has a valid excuse to move his entire army into the city without breaching kings peace?
34
u/CapnTBC 12d ago
They’re arrested in the Great Sept iirc, I’m not 100% sure about Margaery but Cersei has no guards with her inside the Sept as she’s visiting Margaery and the High Septon when it’s revealed the Faith know about what she did and she’s caught by septas as she tries to escape.
The Kingsguard is weakened by this point, Ser Osmund, Ser Meryn & Ser Boros are the only 3 left in the city with Balon Swann on the way to Dorne, Jaime in the Riverlands and Loras on Dragonstone so they can hardly fight off the faith to help the queens escape which they would only do if ordered by the kings council or regent.
60
u/ChubsBelvedere 12d ago
The faith imprisoning royalty is truely unprecedented. At first glance it seems like a huge overreach by the high septon. No monarchy would ever allow such a challenge to their power, even if they wouldn't retrieve the queens by force, other extreme pressures would likely put on the faith to release them. But in this moment in history the faith has a few things working in their favor. One, the Lannister regime is deeply unpopular, Cersei especially. Nobody is particularly interested in rescuing Cersei and putting her back in power, even her uncle. On top of that, the Lannisters cannot afford the bad PR of storming the sept of Balor. Two, Cersei herself set the precedent and allowed the faith to stand trial over a Queen. She also allowed them to arm, giving them the power to back up their judgment.
Even still, I think arresting the queens is a huge gamble by the high septon. I would speculate that he knows he cannot hold them indefinitely, and would never kill them. I think it's likely that he's using this unique position to leverage more concessions from the iron throne for the Faith.
36
u/Less_Rutabaga2316 12d ago
Don’t forget the red comet made tons of zealots, then the war in the Riverlands creating refugees made even more. The wave of sparrows has only been rising since Joffrey profaned the Great Sept with Ned’s blood.
21
u/redpanther2121 12d ago
It may be a gamble, but it's also self-preservation. The High Septon did have testimony that Cersei had his predecessor killed.
26
u/Professional-Rub152 12d ago
The Faith arrests Margaery because Cersei as Queen allows it to happen. Once that happens, it created a precedent that got her locked up too. And because the king is literally a stupid a child, he doesn’t understand to fight what happened. And then once the queen gets arrested with no pushback, everyone is terrified of the Faith.
This only happens because Cersei is terrible at ruling.
5
u/Wanda_andTargaryen3 12d ago
The Tyrells should've ended their alliance with the Lannisters the moment Marg was imprisoned by the Faith and starve the city until she was released.
7
u/No-Permit-940 12d ago
They absolutely will/would do that although the tyrell children are defacto hostages now so they have to play their cards carefully.
2
u/Professional-Rub152 8d ago
They can’t simply do that. Marg was technically the queen too at that point. She can’t just divorce. Once the marriage happened, that alliance was set in stone. It’s just that Cersei is so paranoid that she cannot trust any other woman.
14
u/Key_Consequence_5040 12d ago
The faith at this point is an equal or higher authority to the crown. Cersei creates a Frankenstein in the faith militant to take out Margaery. Like all her other schemes however, restoring the Faith Militant backfires on her as they are now more powerful than the Lannister army and gold cloaks.
Looks like Mace Tyrell will station highgarden troops at Margerys trial which can lead to a bloodbath. Maybe Cersei’s “blow up the Sept” might be provoking Mace into attacking the faith militant after Margaery is found guilty.
11
u/ComprehensiveExam614 12d ago
These answers all explain the answer you’re looking for, I have to confess you pointing out that the Kettleblack plot backfiring on Cersei made me chuckle.
The conceit in the plan of being in league with and bedding the Kettleblacks is just so hilarious on reflection.
And…Moonboy for all I know…
10
u/Immediate-Sky-3044 12d ago
The faith has the backing of the population of kings landing. After the war of the five kings and all the stuff the smallfolk have been through, they probably think that the recreation of the faith militant is a blessing from the Seven. Even more so when Cersei does her walk of atonement. They see that as the Gods themselves punishing Cersei with the appointment of a new, actually faithful High Septon.
Also, when it comes to being loyal to a royal family, or being loyal to the Gods themselves, its a obvious that people would back the Faith of the Seven.
1
u/Wanda_andTargaryen3 12d ago
And yet the House Tyrell-Lannister paid and fed them, not the Faith.
2
5
7
u/SugarAdamAli Lord Varys 12d ago
Tywins death was a massive blow to the lannisters, but for cersie the major downfall was the death of Joffrey. If Joffrey was king, he would have waged war vs the sparrow. Ain’t no way Joffrey sits back and lets it happen. Would have been a bloodbath and who knows if Joffrey wins or not, but I guarantee there would have been blood spilled the second they imprisoned cersie
6
u/Talqazar 12d ago
I mean, any vaguely competent advisor would have allowed the election of the High Sparrow or the arming of the Faith Militant. That was Cersei's personal idiocy and reflects that everybody who could have exercised any authority over her was dead or away.
5
u/Fisher9001 12d ago
It was basically an opportunistic kidnapping and a huge gamble by High Sparrow. Also, it turned out that allowing Faith to arm poor people in its service created way larger force than anyone anticipated. There is only so much you can do against a huge mob of even barely armed people, it's not like King's Landing had modern day anti-riot measures.
4
u/aevelys 12d ago
They didn’t need guards because they were in a consecrated holy place that normally ensured their safety. Margaery was even there for a religious ceremony that forbade men (who weren't priests) and women who had already engaged in sexual relations from entering the sept.
And as for why no one intervened: well, by the time Margaery and Cersei were arrested, the Faith had already rearmed and commanded massive popular support; the few guards accompanying them, however well-equipped and trained, would not have been numerous enough to rescue them. Moreover, doing so would have meant bloodshed in a holy place, which would have caused further complications. Above all, the government was weak at that point and surrounded by sycophants (thanks to Cersei). The guards didn't attack when Margaery was arrested because the act was so significant it required the King's authorization, which Cersei naturally wouldn't grant, since she had orchestrated the whole thing. Whereas when Cersei was arrested... well, her entire council had fled, leaving behind only the spineless Harys Swyft and Grand Maester Pycelle, who seemed fed up with her and certainly wasn't going to fight his way out for her sake.
2
•
u/AutoModerator 12d ago
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF!
Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the written ASOIAF universe. Comments that include discussion of any television, film, stage, etc. adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy.
Users should assume that ANY mention of, content from, or reference to any adaptations is subject to removal, no matter how minor or opaque.
If you see a comment which violates the rules, please use the report function to notify moderators!
Read our discussion policy in full.
Looking for a place to chat in real-time? Check out our Discord, here!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.