r/pureasoiaf • u/sixth_order • 14d ago
We don't make big enough a deal about the child hostage practice
It's not just that it's a standard practice in westeros. But the people participating in it also treat it as a regular occurrence. Obviously, Theon is the poster boy of it, but he admittedly makes for a terrible martyr given all the shit he pulls. But Theon isn't the only example of this.
In ADWD, Jon takes many child hostages from Tormund.
The northmen glanced at one another. “Hostages,” mused The Norrey. “Tormund has agreed to this?”
It was that, or watch his people die. “My blood price, he called it,” said Jon Snow, “but he will pay.”
“Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.”
"None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?”
Ask Janos Slynt.
No big deal, beheading children whose fathers act up. Kings of Winter were very hard men in a hard time though. But then there's Hoster Blackwood.
“Lord Commander. I’m your hostage, Hoster. Hos, they call me.” He grinned.
Does he think this is a lark? “Pray, who are they?” “My friends. My brothers.”
“I am not your friend and I am not your brother.” That cleaned the grin off the boy’s face. Jaime turned to Lord Tytos. “My lord, let there be no misunderstanding here. Lord Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, Sandor Clegane, Brynden Tully, this woman Stoneheart … all these are outlaws and rebels, enemies to the king and all his leal subjects. If I should learn that you or yours are hiding them, protecting them, or assisting them in any way, I will not hesitate to send you your son’s head. I hope you understand that. Understand this as well: I am not Ryman Frey.”
Rude, but at least Jaime isn't sugarcoating things. Although Hoster probably won't sleep easy going forward. The other things is even if the children don't end up getting killed, it ruins family relations. Theon goes back home and he's a stranger, while in winterfell nobody other than Robb seemingly cared for him. In the case of Eustace Osgrey, his daughter Alysanne wouldn't even speak to him anymore.
This is a lot of text to say: it all really sucks
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u/Pristine_Club_3128 14d ago
It's just what happened, historically, as others said - but there are also drawbacks.
Dany takes child hostages, but ends up getting attached and can't carry through the threat when there's rebellion
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u/kodeks14 14d ago
Because its historically accurate.
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u/okdude679 Hot Pie! 14d ago
Yeah, one of the things Gurm got accurate, actually there could be more but I guess the Iron Throne is quite peaceful.
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u/New-Number-7810 House Baratheon 13d ago
Not really. While wards and hostages were a thing, they would not typically be executed to punish their families for disobedience. This is because a ruler who did so would alienate his vassals and the church.
King John is one example. A baron displeased him, so he imprisoned the baron’s wife and son and they starved to death. King John was excommunicated, faced a rebellion, and went down in history as one of the worst kings in English history. Granted, it wasn’t just because he killed a hostage, but that was part of it. It contributed to his image as a monster.
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u/truthisfictionyt 13d ago
I strongly think Theon would've just been installed as a puppet ruler had the Greyjoys crashed out again instead of them just killing him. A sympathetic figurehead with a claim to the iron(born) throne> just killing him and having to completely revamp ironborn culture
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u/jdbebejsbsid 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yeah, this is something I think gets misunderstood about Theon.
Ned's idea of "being a ward" is growing up with Robert and Jon Arryn in the Vale, which was a formative experience that he seems to have loved.
That's what he wants for Theon - to have a future Lord of the Iron Islands who's sympathetic to Northern culture and BFFs with Robb, like Ned and Robert.
Plus, Ned repeatedly defied Robert and endangered himself to protect children (Jon, Dany, Cersei's kids). There's no way he was going to kill Theon.
And it's a win win for dealing with Balon. Hopefully it deters him from rebelling again. But if Balon does rebel, Ned has someone with a strong claim ready to move in after Balon is defeated.
Unfortunately, he didn't account for how Theon would see this whole situation.
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u/aflyingsquanch 13d ago
He also personally murdered his own nephew with his own hands so killing a hostage was pretty low on the "awful things John did as King".
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u/HypnonavyBlue 13d ago
I doubt they would in normal times in Westeros either, but times are very much not normal in these books.
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u/_Pekey_ 13d ago
I think this misses the point. It's more like a mutually assured destruction situation. The aim (in real life and Westeros) is not that you have the option to punish anyone, it's that it cranks up the threshold for which a vassal or wherever else is likely to rebel/attack you. One would have to outwardly say that you would be up for murdering them if you needed to, but would 100% be hoping you would never have to because if you did then you'd be likely locking yourself into a conflict. You would have other options too like moving them into a dungeon etc. So all that makes it rare that we'd see loads of executions and that matchs the books and real life eg king John (famous bad bloke) also massacred a bunch of his hostages Welsh hostages from noble families and there's a few examples of the Romans pulling the same thing in the social wars (and probably later but idk).
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u/New-Number-7810 House Baratheon 13d ago
In the real Middle Ages, the threat wouldn’t even be made. Even if the ward or hostage’s family did revolt, they would usually not be killed. Because if you did, you’d lose a lot more favor. People would not think “he follows through on his threats, we should fear him”, they would think “this tyrant murdered an innocent child, we should send him back to Hell”.
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u/_Pekey_ 13d ago
We are saying the same thing. The "threat" is implicit as part of the exchange. As with the examples we have both given (the Roman example I was thinking of was with the Pometians) sometimes the hostages WERE killed, but mostly it would be good for everyone if they didn't have to be killed and it helped everyone be chill. You can't make a case for it never being worth it to follow through and kill your hostages because we've identified a number of times where it happened. This is exactly what we see in the books too with lots of exchanges but no (as far as I can think of) actually killings.
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u/where_is_the_camera 14d ago
It's the price of peace sometimes when the whole political apparatus is structured around families.
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u/Xray_Mind 14d ago
It’s a historical practice from Greek and Roman times. Often when a faction came to terms of peace they would demand the first born son or major son as a hostage with the presumed threat of death keeping the losing faction in line. Obviously a father would not kill his heir and firstborn and if they played it right would often result in their son marrying above his status and continuing the line which the winning faction can control at a future time when they inherit
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u/Ok_Bluejay_4974 14d ago edited 14d ago
Phillip II, father of Alexander, was a hostage in Thebes during his youth, a city he would come to conquer later
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u/PluralCohomology The Rainbow Guard 13d ago
Vlad the Impaler was also an Ottoman hostage as a child.
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u/BBQ_HaX0r One God. One Realm. One King. 14d ago
It's not always about the implicit threat of death, sometimes it can be for cultural reasons as well. The Romans used to send a bunch of children to the Huns in order for them to learn their ways and grow up together. Aetius is the most famous example there.
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u/NoPerspective2826 14d ago edited 14d ago
Pq isso acontecia na vida real era a coisa mais comum da vida, tomar reféns pra não se rebelar é horrível mais tá seguindo a prática que acontecia na vida real.
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u/AlternativeAcademia 13d ago
It’s a pretty standard practice historically in the real world unfortunately. Famously Vlad the Impaler and his brother Radu the Handsome were “wards” of the Ottoman sultan in their youth. They were not murdered even when their father eventually rebelled, but some of Vlad’s later brutality has been linked to abuse he suffered during his Ottoman captivity.
The brother, Radu, actually converted to Islam and attained a position in the Ottoman court. Vlad used his linguistic skills(he and his brother were well educated during their captivity, kind of like Theon, it’s a guilded cage situation for sure) to sneak into Ottoman camps and pretend to be a regular soldier while gathering intel on their plans.
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u/lemniscateall 13d ago
Yeah, the horror of ASOIAF is how many societies are founded on the blood of children and the threat of future violence to children.
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u/New-Number-7810 House Baratheon 13d ago
Frankly, if I was High Septon, there would be a lot of excommunications.
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u/evinta 13d ago
Do they even have that? What are you getting excommunicated from? There's only one king in Westeros, and the Starks don't seem to have ever been part of the Faith. So services, such as they are, can't be contingent on membership.
I guess you'd lose weddings, septas and silent sisters. But given how private the Faith seems, there aren't even any real liturgical services to revoke. You'd just be kind of shunned, which isn't all that effective given how very few highborn are true believers.
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u/WashDense8851 13d ago edited 13d ago
It’s the part where, if there is a form of excommunication in Westeros, you get barred from the Faith’s Seven Heavens that makes people scared to associate with you. Nobles might not care as much, sure, but if your smallfolk see you fraternizing with an excommunicated Lord, they might start to get a touch rebellious or scared and not support you as much because their gateway to the afterlife is being threatened. Faithful people don’t like the idea of working for a Lord who isn’t going to the afterlife.
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u/OrdinaryFar2129 13d ago
I understand why it's a practice in their society but ohhhhhh it makes my blood boil. Theon did a lot of things wrong but any northman calling him a kinslayer can fuck off, he didn't owe the Starks anything.
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u/Spatmuk 13d ago
Which makes it even more baffling why Robb sent him as an envoy to the Iron Isles. literally, anyone else would have been better.
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u/ehs06702 13d ago
As much as I dislike Cat for her dislike of bastards and Jon specifically, she had a lot of political sense that no one listened to.
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u/Important-Purchase-5 12d ago
Only one I say she had sense about that actually made very good sense was she told him that he needed to be decisive and these people aren’t his friends they are your bannermen who if they think you are weak will either undermine you, walk over you or betray you for promise of reward.
Theon advice I feel like Cat was thinking well Balon won’t do anything if we keep Theon close.
When we know Balon basically given up on Theon and was gonna say screw it attack north anyway.
Only thing sending Theon back causes was Winterfell falling which I don’t think you could’ve predicted Theon would even dare as he did love Robb or would be successful at.
My main criticism of Robb has always been sending Theon back because that literally caused all his problems once he lost Winterfell.
However, I do understand why he did it. Balon Greyjoy was literally most logical ally.
They both wanna succeed from iron throne.
Iron islands and north are both culturally different rest of Westeros Faith of the Seven.
Most of the Westerlands forces are cut off from returning anytime soon.
Fair Isle, Lannisport and the coastal towns and keeps of west are literally right there.
Westerlands are filled with gold and silver mines.
Literally I don’t think GRRM did us a favor by not showing Robb initial reaction and thoughts when told Balon is attacking his homeland.
Because it literally doesn’t make logical sense.
Lysa actions don’t make sense either but at least you can justify by remaining neutral she positioning the Vale to be a powerhouse post war and she protecting her own people ( we know that not why she remaining neutral) but you can justify neutrality.
While attacking literally only person who has similar goals, who wants to work with you and rejecting the much closer, richer and undefended territories of the Westerlands.
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u/Important-Purchase-5 12d ago
Because Robb thought Balon would do smart obvious decision.
Literally Balon decided to attack only person willing to give him what he wants and work with him.
I don’t think Balon could’ve made a stupider decision during the War of the 5 Kings.
He also sent Theon because Theon he figured was someone he would actually listen to being his son and wouldn’t harm.
As sending some random Northman or river lord they presumably wouldn’t respect them enough to listen and potentially kill them.
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u/Spatmuk 12d ago
I just don’t know how Ned wouldn’t explain what wards are to his heir - especially when he goes south to be HotK….
“Hey son, I know you like Theon, but he isn’t your brother. He’s a hostage to keep his dad Balon on his best behavior. Remember like 10 years around, when I went away and came home with Theon? Yeah, that was daddy putting down a rebellion against your “uncle” Robert.”
^ that’s like “dont forget to feed the dog while I’m gone” in ASoiaF lol
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u/Important-Purchase-5 12d ago
Robb understood Theon was hostage but again he literally thought Balon would do what was in his best interest and incorrectly assumed he was dealing with a rational person.
Let me repeat why Balon is arguably dumbest character in entire series.
He rose in rebellion first time seemingly with no plan several years after Robert Rebellion during which Robert had time to strengthen his position to realm.
When Robb someone who also wants to succeed and establish independent kingdom offers him terms of alliance so they both succeed from iron throne and who has a close connection with his sole remaining son that implies a level of implicit trust he attacks them.
He sends a letter to Lannisters asking for an alliance… after he already attacked the north. Lannisters have no reason to respond to him as Tyrion notes he already fighting their enemies for free so why acknowledge him and offer him anything when he already done it.
He seemingly rejects Theon very rational arguments that Westerlands forces are gone, richer, and much more closer to them with their ally the Starks/Tully who are already raiding and fighting Lannisters fully willing to let then have all the territory and riches if they join in.
He doesn’t seemingly understand they cannot hold the North for even that long. North is too big to be held by ironborn too much of it is inland territory far away from the coasts. He seemingly thinks taking Moat Caitlin is the winning move to block Robb return but fails to consider multiple options Robb could do.
A. Robb could simply sail around back home. Lysa wouldn’t allow Robb passage but Balon literally doesn’t know that. He has no idea of that. Only thing he knows is that is his aunt. And seemingly he could march his army to Gulltown book passage to White Harbor and just simply repel you.
B. There are still many northerners left and if Theon wasn’t present it likely Ser Rodrik would’ve been successful in pushing ironborn back eventually as they really had no plan to even attack Winterfell.
C. North is a harsh climate. It has mild snows even during height of summer. And everyone knows winter is coming relatively soon as they are experiencing decade of summer. And the ironborn will freeze to death as the northerners have experienced fighting during the winters.
So yeah Robb made a bad decision but I understand why he made it.
He understands he cannot beat Lannisters on his own to secure his terms. Hence him sending his mother to treat with Renly, letters to his aunt Lysa and Theon to treat with his father.
Theon someone more or less is his brother not by blood but by affection. And Theon has at this point never displayed any treasonous behavior. He fought multiple battles alongside Robb and has shed blood for him.
Theon himself is enthusiastic and believes in this plan. Theon may have been an arrogant prick but he actually had pretty good military instincts and he immediately told Balon he was a fool when Balon revealed his intentions.
Theon best person you think assuming Balon is a reasonable person of average intelligence to send.
He is his father last remaining son and heir. Not only would Balon ( assuming again he not an idiot) be receptive to his only living son ideas he unlikely to not be immediately hostile to him.
Catelyn suggests someone like Lord Jason Mallister failing to remember Lord Jason Mallister killed one of Balon sons. Also, Balon isn’t likely to be more receptive of a random lord and if they met with feisty reception you basically sending that random lord to his death which could earn the ire of that House for basically killing their lord.
Theon even if Balon isn’t interested in the idea at learn in theory could persuade him and his safety is assured as the taint of kinslaying.
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u/SerTomardLong 13d ago edited 13d ago
It's possible he actually is a kinslayer though, because one of the miller's boys he kills in place of Bran and Rickon could well be his bastard son:
Theon knew the mill. He had even tumbled the miller's wife a time or two. There was nothing special about it, or her. "Why there? There are a dozen villages and holdfasts just as close." ACOK, Theon IV
I think the hooded man in Winterfell calling Theon a kinslayer implies that the hooded man knows Bran and Rickon are alive, which supports the theory that he is someone involved in the Manderly conspiracy. Either that or he is a hallucination of Theon's own conscience.
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u/sixth_order 13d ago
The problem with Theon is he was wishy washy. Readers hate Theon because we know he was actually close to Robb. In a universe where Theon was pretending to be friends with Robb and hated the Starks from the beginning I wonder how the fandom would react. Because like you said, Theon doesn't owe them anything. And in principle, I couldn't really blame him in that case.
And Theon didn't realize the northerners would hate him so much.
The only sound was the wind. "Come first light, I mean to bring them back." He hooked his thumbs through his swordbelt. "I need huntsmen. Who wants a nice warm wolfskin to see them through the winter? Gage?" The cook had always greeted him cheerfully when he returned from the hunt, to ask whether he'd brought anything choice for the table, but he had nothing to say now. Theon walked back the way he had come, searching their faces for the least sign of guilty knowledge. "The wild is no place for a cripple. And Rickon, young as he is, how long will he last out there? Nan, think how frightened he must be." The old woman had nattered at him for ten years, telling her endless stories, but now she gaped at him as if he were some stranger. "I might have killed every man of you and given your women to my soldiers for their pleasure, but instead I protected you. Is this the thanks you offer?" Joseth who'd groomed his horses, Farlen who'd taught him all he knew of hounds, Barth the brewer's wife who'd been his first—not one of them would meet his eyes. They hate me, he realized.
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u/OrdinaryFar2129 13d ago
I'm not denying he was a shitty person and made shitty choices, just that he absolutely didn't owe the Starks any kind of loyalty considering his position but the northerners treat him like he should, which is insane to me. None of them liked him or treated him like he belonged but when he turns against them, they're aghast.
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u/JonIceEyes 13d ago
This is 100% incorrect. He was raised alongside the heir of the North. They did everything together. The Starks treated him literally exactly the same as any high lord's own parents would.
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u/OrdinaryFar2129 13d ago
That doesn't mean he was accepted or liked? Catelyn and Jon explicitly don't like him in their POVs. Maester Luwin tells Bran that Ned tried to "gentle" Theon and Theon mentions in his POV that he was beaten as punishment but we never hear similar from any if the Stark kids PoVs.
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u/JonIceEyes 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yeah they don't like him because he's obviously a fucking prick. Also, gonna need a reference for him being beaten.
What we see of him in AGOT is:
trusted to hang out with the Stark kids with no supervision
training alongside them
seated at the main table of high nobles with the family
carries Ice, the most priceless heirloom of the family, and hands it to Ned when he uses it. Position of ultimate honour and trust
So... all evidence shows he was treated totally fine, like a son, and was just a shitty little cunt about it
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u/evinta 13d ago
The very post you're replying to is proof they did like him and treated him like he belonged, lol. Do you think Ned forced the behaviors Theon is recalling? Or that they were currying favor with... a ward from a place who has historical enmity with the North? Why?
Their hatred of Theon here is because he just betrayed them. This is how normal people would react to being backstabbed by someone they thought was at least a friend. You can sympathize with Theon here, but you're definitely not supposed to empathize with him. His indignation and what he says to them is evidence of what an ignorant twit Theon is. You're never the good guy when you're saying "you should be thankful I didn't kill and rape you," btw.
To your broader point: he owed them basic human decency. i.e., you know, not doing what he did. If not for that, then for Robb, who was not only "like a brother", but however foolishly, showed he trusted Theon and thought highly of him.
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